Update on J2CL

[Goktug Gokdogan]

We recently sent an update on J2CL and we would like to cross post it to GWT contributor list since there was recent questions about it. I would like to also remind everybody that GWT3 != J2CL; GWT3 work is still ongoing in the open source community and I will talk to steering committee to see if an update on it could be provided as well.

----

Since we gave access to more people, we thought that this would be a good time to give you an update on J2CL; what is happening, if it is really a thing or not and what to expect from it.

First the good parts:

1- J2CL is feature complete for a while and had a very strong traction in Google in the last year.

We got pretty big customers on board and some launched to production and they are pretty happy about it.  To name a few projects that are already running J2CL code: New GMail, Inbox, Docs, Slides. And more are coming.

We could not have achieved this with GWT since our customers apps have very strict expectations on code size/performance and interoperation with their existing JavaScript stack. And this is why we built J2CL in the first place.

2- J2CL has improved on code size compared to already quite performant GWT compiler.

The last time I checked it was around 5-10% code size reduction and we will continue working on that.

3- Optimized compiles improved by 50% and it is possible to get a couple of second refresh times for development.

And now the “could be better” parts :)

1- Open-source build is not fully working

J2CL is highly optimized for Google infrastructure and scales very well with Bazel. There are multiple reasons for that:

- Bazel works very well as a cross-platform build solution. You can build your Android, iOS and Web application together with Bazel.

- Bazel has a very good caching/scaling architecture and we already designed J2CL based on that.

- Bazel is our only expertise on build systems so we can only ensure developers gets a good development experience using Bazel.

For pure J2CL experience in open source, we decided early on to rely on Bazel and made it a prerequisite for open-sourcing it.

However, our internal build macros used things that are only available internally so we need to clean and port to a more proper solution that could also work well for open-source. And during that process we keep hitting limitations that block us and cause delays. Also please keep in mind that J2CL’s success is highly related to its internal success and we were busy helping internal customers to have successful production launches so we didn't have much bandwidth either.

On the bright side, most of the blocking issues are getting resolved and we had progress in the last couple of months and we are prioritizing this even further.

(Note that this doesn’t mean you will be *required* to use Bazel for J2CL and our contributors are already working on Maven/Gradle solutions.)

2- For now your mileage may vary w.r.t performance

Even though optimized compiles are much better for Google, I am not sure how this will translate to open- source  since the two compilers scale differently and historically open source users got better performance out of GWT than we did internally. However I'm optimistic on this in the long run.

For development edit/refresh cycles, it is hard to beat GWT’s SDM since it is already designed to do the very minimal things required to serve development code. Being said that it is still possible to have good refresh times using something called 'iblaze' which is essentially a file watcher that triggers a warm transpiler and code bundler where we could do caching.

One worry I have here is, we use some tools that does code pruning during build which helps some with the performance, and those tools are not available for open source. Something we will eventually look at but not very soon.

Anyway, this is the quick summary of how things are and I hope it sheds some light to the questions.

[David Nouls]

Thanks for the update,

I fail to understand why the prerequisite of using bazel was enforced and why it seems to have such a big impact on opensourcing J2CL.

As far as I understand Google is probably the only company that uses bazel, and internally that is not even the same product as the opensource one.

Does J2CL depend on Bazel somehow ? That sounds like a liability to me.

Newer versions of Gradle have a lot of optimisations and caching implemented, so was it really worth the effort to use Bazel ?

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[Goktug Gokdogan]

I think you are overly underestimating Bazel but that is a side discussion that I don't want to go into right now.

We already use Bazel and cannot use anything else internally so that's already the starting point. Question is; 

Should we have invested on completely different stack on Gradle (or put X here) that we have no experience with where JavaScript and JsCompiler plugins either exist and not properly supported or doesn't exist needs to be built; and try to maintain that parallel solution just for the open-source

or

make what we have on Bazel work in open-source with our limited bandwidth towards something that we could give proper support for.

I assure you, you wouldn't get quicker access with the first option. We decided to go with second one and gave early access to a trusted group of users so they could start working on alternative build solutions and GWT3. We believe this was a good middle ground.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/f1a3ea0f-03d1-4e33-82a8-61330820895c%40Spark.

[Julien Dramaix]

> I fail to understand why the prerequisite of using bazel was enforced 

Bazel is enforced if you want to contribute to J2CL not if you want to use it. As Goktug mentioned in his post, J2CL has been built for our internal users first. So it's natural to first integrate it with Bazel as we use it internally and it's our domain of expertise. As any other project, we don't want to maintain different build files for building and developing J2CL.

J2CL is a java application that takes java files as input and generates closure annotated js files.  You need then to pass those generated js file to the javascript/closure pipeline. That part is slightly different for each build system and we rely on open source contributors to make the right decision.

That being said, we truly think J2CL can bring some added value to the opensource community and that people outside of Google (mainly GWT contributors) could be interested. You should just stop thinking  that J2CL is intended to be the replacement of GWT.  GWT 3.0 could use j2cl as main compiler or not. It will be up to the GWT steering committee to decide.

On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM David Nouls <david...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/f1a3ea0f-03d1-4e33-82a8-61330820895c%40Spark.

[Relja Pcela]

Thanks G guys on J2CL update. It would be nice to hear some updates on GWT 3.0 from GWT contributors (Colin ?). Any estimation, milestones ... We know about the document "updating GWT modules" but can anyone say something about the near future of GWT 3.0 ?

Thanks in advance.

[Hristo Stoyanov]

Guys,

Thanks for the update to J2CL! Here is what I understood, the questions I have - correct me, if I am wrong:

1. Google is seeing good results from J2CL in a number of products, so your internal funding won't be cut, J2CL won't be abandoned! That is good news!

2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

3. Some GWT folks are developing Gradle and Maven plug-ins. What is the status of those? I think this is the most important thing - once the J2CL jars are in Maven central and the plug-ins ready, people can start building apps with J2CL?

4. This comment from Goktug: ..."we use some tools that does code pruning during build which helps some with the performance, and those tools are not available for open source. Something we will eventually look at but not very soon" worries me. Is J2CL a 100% Java or you use other stuff that can not be released?

5. I still don't quite understand why not dump everything J2CL on Gihub "AS IS" and let us sort it out?

Also, It would be helpful if some of the developers who already received the J2CL code drop comment and clarify what needs to be finished from their point of view.

As far as GWT3, I don't understand what is the value of it at all, maybe valuable time/resources can be spent on J2CL instead, once it is placed on Github

Thanks.

[Ray Cromwell]

>. This comment from Goktug: ..."we use some tools that does code pruning during build which helps some with the performance, and those tools are not available for open source. Something we will eventually look at but not very soon" worries me. Is J2CL a 100% Java or you use other stuff that can not be released?

The main difference between bazel and other build systems is that it is built for an immutable view of code trees.   Bazel rules are perfectly predictable from inputs to outputs, and this allows highly parallelized builds and caching. Everything at Google is build from HEAD, not SemVer, and so perfect cachability and deterministic build stability is important for us.

Internally, we have "dev mode" interactive versions of the Closure Compiler that can do lightweight pruning for rapid development, but these are tied to internal infrastructure and specialized Bazel stuff that accumulates a pruned JS-level dependency graph in parallel with the build targets.  So it's not that it isn't written in Java (actually some of this stuff isn't), but more that it's tied to internal build infrastructure, which is probably overkill for external developers, and something much simpler, akin to concatenating all your dependencies and running Webpack/Rollup style pruning on it would be sufficient for development. 

The nice thing about J2CL is writing this edit/refresh environments is far far simpler than it was to do with GWT DevMode, as your IDE or build tools can already do file watching/rebuild, whereas DevMode had the burden of being an incremental build system unto itself.

-Ray

 

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[Julien Dramaix]

> 2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

Yes it can. We are already building jsinterop-base and Elemental2 with Bazel and push artifact on Maven Central.

-Julien

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:50 PM Hristo Stoyanov <hr.st...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Konstantin Solomatov]

Are there any updates on J2CL? A lot of time has passed.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 3:54:08 AM UTC-4, Julien Dramaix wrote:

> 2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

Yes it can. We are already building jsinterop-base and Elemental2 with Bazel and push artifact on Maven Central.

-Julien

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:50 PM Hristo Stoyanov <hr.st...@gmail.com> wrote:

Guys,

Thanks for the update to J2CL! Here is what I understood, the questions I have - correct me, if I am wrong:

1. Google is seeing good results from J2CL in a number of products, so your internal funding won't be cut, J2CL won't be abandoned! That is good news!

2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

3. Some GWT folks are developing Gradle and Maven plug-ins. What is the status of those? I think this is the most important thing - once the J2CL jars are in Maven central and the plug-ins ready, people can start building apps with J2CL?

4. This comment from Goktug: ..."we use some tools that does code pruning during build which helps some with the performance, and those tools are not available for open source. Something we will eventually look at but not very soon" worries me. Is J2CL a 100% Java or you use other stuff that can not be released?

5. I still don't quite understand why not dump everything J2CL on Gihub "AS IS" and let us sort it out?

Also, It would be helpful if some of the developers who already received the J2CL code drop comment and clarify what needs to be finished from their point of view.

As far as GWT3, I don't understand what is the value of it at all, maybe valuable time/resources can be spent on J2CL instead, once it is placed on Github

Thanks.

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[Goktug Gokdogan]

We got it mostly working. Hopefully you should get an announcement soon.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:06 AM Konstantin Solomatov <konstantin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any updates on J2CL? A lot of time has passed.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 3:54:08 AM UTC-4, Julien Dramaix wrote:

> 2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

Yes it can. We are already building jsinterop-base and Elemental2 with Bazel and push artifact on Maven Central.

-Julien

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:50 PM Hristo Stoyanov <hr.st...@gmail.com> wrote:

Guys,

Thanks for the update to J2CL! Here is what I understood, the questions I have - correct me, if I am wrong:

1. Google is seeing good results from J2CL in a number of products, so your internal funding won't be cut, J2CL won't be abandoned! That is good news!

2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

3. Some GWT folks are developing Gradle and Maven plug-ins. What is the status of those? I think this is the most important thing - once the J2CL jars are in Maven central and the plug-ins ready, people can start building apps with J2CL?

4. This comment from Goktug: ..."we use some tools that does code pruning during build which helps some with the performance, and those tools are not available for open source. Something we will eventually look at but not very soon" worries me. Is J2CL a 100% Java or you use other stuff that can not be released?

5. I still don't quite understand why not dump everything J2CL on Gihub "AS IS" and let us sort it out?

Also, It would be helpful if some of the developers who already received the J2CL code drop comment and clarify what needs to be finished from their point of view.

As far as GWT3, I don't understand what is the value of it at all, maybe valuable time/resources can be spent on J2CL instead, once it is placed on Github

Thanks.

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[Julien Dramaix]

Note that J2CL works for a while now inside Google and is used by several big applications. But it was using several internal tools and api that prevent us to opensource it. 

We are close to finish the clean up and as Goktug mentioned in his previous email, you should get an announcement soon if our internal priorities don't change.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/CAN%3DyUA260YR-MCguZadyrsQB3_vxhDCCsB7tW10OVmwn6%2BWi7g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Max Fromberger]

Nice!! That sounds awesome. Thx Goktug and Julien for the news flash.

[Konstantin Solomatov]

Do you have any info on how soon it will happen? I.e. days, weeks?

Thanks,

Kostya

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 1:02:45 AM UTC-4, Julien Dramaix wrote:

Note that J2CL works for a while now inside Google and is used by several big applications. But it was using several internal tools and api that prevent us to opensource it. 

We are close to finish the clean up and as Goktug mentioned in his previous email, you should get an announcement soon if our internal priorities don't change.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:30 PM 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <google-web-toolkit-contri...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

We got it mostly working. Hopefully you should get an announcement soon.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:06 AM Konstantin Solomatov <konstantin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any updates on J2CL? A lot of time has passed.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 3:54:08 AM UTC-4, Julien Dramaix wrote:

> 2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

Yes it can. We are already building jsinterop-base and Elemental2 with Bazel and push artifact on Maven Central.

-Julien

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:50 PM Hristo Stoyanov <hr.st...@gmail.com> wrote:

Guys,

Thanks for the update to J2CL! Here is what I understood, the questions I have - correct me, if I am wrong:

1. Google is seeing good results from J2CL in a number of products, so your internal funding won't be cut, J2CL won't be abandoned! That is good news!

2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

3. Some GWT folks are developing Gradle and Maven plug-ins. What is the status of those? I think this is the most important thing - once the J2CL jars are in Maven central and the plug-ins ready, people can start building apps with J2CL?

4. This comment from Goktug: ..."we use some tools that does code pruning during build which helps some with the performance, and those tools are not available for open source. Something we will eventually look at but not very soon" worries me. Is J2CL a 100% Java or you use other stuff that can not be released?

5. I still don't quite understand why not dump everything J2CL on Gihub "AS IS" and let us sort it out?

Also, It would be helpful if some of the developers who already received the J2CL code drop comment and clarify what needs to be finished from their point of view.

As far as GWT3, I don't understand what is the value of it at all, maybe valuable time/resources can be spent on J2CL instead, once it is placed on Github

Thanks.

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[Goktug Gokdogan]

2-3 weeks unless we hit a major issue.

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:44 AM Konstantin Solomatov <konstantin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you have any info on how soon it will happen? I.e. days, weeks?

Thanks,

Kostya

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 1:02:45 AM UTC-4, Julien Dramaix wrote:

Note that J2CL works for a while now inside Google and is used by several big applications. But it was using several internal tools and api that prevent us to opensource it. 

We are close to finish the clean up and as Goktug mentioned in his previous email, you should get an announcement soon if our internal priorities don't change.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:30 PM 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <google-web-tool...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

We got it mostly working. Hopefully you should get an announcement soon.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:06 AM Konstantin Solomatov <konstantin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any updates on J2CL? A lot of time has passed.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 3:54:08 AM UTC-4, Julien Dramaix wrote:

> 2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

Yes it can. We are already building jsinterop-base and Elemental2 with Bazel and push artifact on Maven Central.

-Julien

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:50 PM Hristo Stoyanov <hr.st...@gmail.com> wrote:

Guys,

Thanks for the update to J2CL! Here is what I understood, the questions I have - correct me, if I am wrong:

1. Google is seeing good results from J2CL in a number of products, so your internal funding won't be cut, J2CL won't be abandoned! That is good news!

2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

3. Some GWT folks are developing Gradle and Maven plug-ins. What is the status of those? I think this is the most important thing - once the J2CL jars are in Maven central and the plug-ins ready, people can start building apps with J2CL?

4. This comment from Goktug: ..."we use some tools that does code pruning during build which helps some with the performance, and those tools are not available for open source. Something we will eventually look at but not very soon" worries me. Is J2CL a 100% Java or you use other stuff that can not be released?

5. I still don't quite understand why not dump everything J2CL on Gihub "AS IS" and let us sort it out?

Also, It would be helpful if some of the developers who already received the J2CL code drop comment and clarify what needs to be finished from their point of view.

As far as GWT3, I don't understand what is the value of it at all, maybe valuable time/resources can be spent on J2CL instead, once it is placed on Github

Thanks.

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[Konstantin Solomatov]

Thank you for the update!

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:19:01 PM UTC-4, Goktug Gokdogan wrote:

2-3 weeks unless we hit a major issue.

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:44 AM Konstantin Solomatov <konstantin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you have any info on how soon it will happen? I.e. days, weeks?

Thanks,

Kostya

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 1:02:45 AM UTC-4, Julien Dramaix wrote:

Note that J2CL works for a while now inside Google and is used by several big applications. But it was using several internal tools and api that prevent us to opensource it. 

We are close to finish the clean up and as Goktug mentioned in his previous email, you should get an announcement soon if our internal priorities don't change.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:30 PM 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <google-web-toolkit-contri...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

We got it mostly working. Hopefully you should get an announcement soon.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:06 AM Konstantin Solomatov <konstantin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any updates on J2CL? A lot of time has passed.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 3:54:08 AM UTC-4, Julien Dramaix wrote:

> 2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

Yes it can. We are already building jsinterop-base and Elemental2 with Bazel and push artifact on Maven Central.

-Julien

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:50 PM Hristo Stoyanov <hr.st...@gmail.com> wrote:

Guys,

Thanks for the update to J2CL! Here is what I understood, the questions I have - correct me, if I am wrong:

1. Google is seeing good results from J2CL in a number of products, so your internal funding won't be cut, J2CL won't be abandoned! That is good news!

2. J2CL itself is build with Bazel (for the reasons you mentioned). This would not matter much, as long as you could push the J2CL artifacts to Maven Central in an automated (Bazel) pipeline. Can Bazel do that?

3. Some GWT folks are developing Gradle and Maven plug-ins. What is the status of those? I think this is the most important thing - once the J2CL jars are in Maven central and the plug-ins ready, people can start building apps with J2CL?

4. This comment from Goktug: ..."we use some tools that does code pruning during build which helps some with the performance, and those tools are not available for open source. Something we will eventually look at but not very soon" worries me. Is J2CL a 100% Java or you use other stuff that can not be released?

5. I still don't quite understand why not dump everything J2CL on Gihub "AS IS" and let us sort it out?

Also, It would be helpful if some of the developers who already received the J2CL code drop comment and clarify what needs to be finished from their point of view.

As far as GWT3, I don't understand what is the value of it at all, maybe valuable time/resources can be spent on J2CL instead, once it is placed on Github

Thanks.

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[Konstantin Solomatov]

Are there any updates on this?

Do you have to provide bazel rules when you release it?

Thanks,

Kostya

[Peter Donald]

There will bazel rules included in the release - as of the weekend
they were finally able to build an example using bazel rather than
googles internal tool. So things are looking good. I believe Colin is
working on getting together a Maven plugin aswell. I have no
visibility into Googles work queue but as an outsider looking in -
things are getting closer ;)

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Cheers,

Peter Donald

[Konstantin Solomatov]

That's great news! Bazel support is great news as well. Our project uses bazel, and we can't think about getting back to maven.

Thanks,

Kostya

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