political fundraising on golang.org!

[peterGo]

Recently, a political message with a fundraising link appeared as a banner atop golang.org websites: https://golang.org/, https://pkg.go.dev/.

content/static: add Black Lives Matter banner to top of site
https://go-review.googlesource.com/c/website/+/237589

    <div class="Header-banner">
    Black Lives Matter.
    <a href="https://support.eji.org/give/153413/#!/donation/checkout"
       target="_blank"
       rel="noopener">Support the Equal Justice Initiative.</a>
    </div>

How was this decision made?

Go is a programming language. For political fundraising use personal Twitter and Facebook accounts.

Peter

[Amarjeet Anand]

I second Peter.

This is absolutely unbelievable.

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[Sam Whited]

This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
is a social issue. It is a justice issue. It seems quite obvious to me
that this is different than if they had put a fundraiser for a candidate
for office, for instance, in a banner.

It amazes me how often people come out of the wood work to criticize the
politicization of things as soon as anyone posts a black lives matter
banner, but would be perfectly happy with banners for another cause. Of
course, I don't know if that's you or not, so I'll leave you with some
questions: If you have a problem with this, consider whether you'd have
the same problem with a banner for a cancer research foundation during
the U.S.'s cancer awareness month, for example. If the answer is no,
consider why that might be and work on it. If the answer is yes consider
why a banner that doesn't hurt you but could help a lot of people
bothers you so much.

This *is* related to Go, because it's a community issue and Go is a
community as much as it's a language. Communities of privilege staying
silent on these matters and leaving it up to others, often to
communities that have expended many generations worth of emotional
capital on this already and who often are dismissed by the very people
who need to hear their message, is part of the problem. We don't want to
be part of the problem, so let's do our part, however small, with the
platforms we have.

—Sam

[Robert Engels]

I agree it is an important social issue, but in this particular case I believe the funds are directed to specific political parties so the boundary between supporting social issues and political contributions is murky. I am not saying it shouldn’t be done but it should be more transparent.

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[Robert Engels]

Major correction, this is not the .org I was thinking of. I have no knowledge that what I said is the case with the EJI.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/1F48211E-9F77-4A8B-B83C-BF9B8987FB56%40ix.netcom.com.

[Sam Whited]

They are directed to the Equal Justice Initiative which is a non-profit.
In the united states 501(c)3 not-for-profit organizations are barred
from certain kinds of political speech including endorsing individual
parties or candidates. The banner does not point to any particular
political party.

—Sam

[Robert Engels]

Thank you, I had already corrected my statement. Sorry to everyone.

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[Amarjeet Anand]

Thanks Sam for the details

Now it makes sense and I can see where it is coming from.

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[Eric S. Raymond]

Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>:

> This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
> is a social issue. It is a justice issue.

It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not belong.

Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
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[Amnon Baron Cohen]

I, for one, applaud the posting of the banner.

Solidarity!

[Sam Whited]

What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
your point).

—Sam

[Axel Wagner]

Hi,

the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I was a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first amendment here).

Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what* politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way or don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be sad to see you leave.

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[Robert Engels]

Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how best to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all. 

On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CAEkBMfH12W0uj6UNRB6Y2mdBgb7w-nze0O_afJAZ0i5KwATW7A%40mail.gmail.com.

[andrey mirtchovski]

Hi,

I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
on golang.org for me?

(reductio ad absurdum)

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/0A551BF9-F25D-43C4-A678-2E449CC56716%40ix.netcom.com.

[Axel Wagner]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:08 AM Robert Engels <ren...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how best to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all. 

No, it is *inherently* political to try and silence the support of marginalized people.

That's what's happening here, to point out the obvious. Some people (the Go project) expressed support for a marginalized group and now, you and others are trying to silence them. That's a political act. Which is why I say, it's not about "if politics", it's "which politics". You are saying your political activism is okay, but theirs isn't.

[Axel Wagner]

You could start here. If the Go team is comfortable putting a banner in its support on the page, they might do so.

(You are using "reductio ad absurdum" wrong).

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CAK4xykXE8fGZ%2BZCUm-7QR13OKkv%2Bsa5fCEB3bXHh%3DTWACbWLVw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dan Kortschak]

In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
action and what doesn't varies between people.

[robert engels]

I never said once that what the Go team was wrong, or not within their rights - all I ever called for was transparency so people can educated decisions on the subject. After more research into EJI I even stated I was wrong about possible political affiliations in this case. 

Maybe you were reading someone else’s post ???

All I pointed out was that someone objecting to this may not be doing based on political party affiliations. Do you think all Democrats think alike on all issues? This is the problem with society at large these days - you can be aligned on the goals and disagree on how you get there but if you disagree with the vocal minority then look out.

You know nothing about me, my background, my politics - or morals for that matter - so please be more respectful. Nothing I said on this topic was in any way disrespectful of anyone - yours clearly has been.

[Ian Lance Taylor]

Let's please all remember to be respectful and charitable in this discussion, per the gopher values in the code of conduct.  Let's not let this go off the rails.  Thanks.

Ian

[Axel Wagner]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 01:22 robert engels <ren...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

All I pointed out was that someone objecting to this may not be doing based on political party affiliations.

No, what you said is, that objecting to the banner may not be *political*. You didn't mention parties and neither did I. And I stand by my statement, that objecting to the banner *is* inherently a political act. And that claiming to object on the grounds that you don't want politics in the Go project is thus paradoxical.

[Jesse McNelis]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:12 AM andrey mirtchovski <mirtc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
on golang.org for me?

(reductio ad absurdum)

This sounds like a great idea to me. It would probably need to be a non-profit that furthers the Go language by expanding the reach and appeal of the community to underrepresented groups.

Perhaps someone could put together a policy on what kind of non-profits that would involve and this could be an ongoing thing.

[Jon Reiter]

Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219 countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire community.

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[Axel Wagner]

I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as a testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.

Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page is the least of your worries.

Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CABZtUk6QNmqm0JyG8N7YmYE98V_THupKZUuar%3Df7jx_WwJEWmg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Marian Kopriva]

I agree with Peter's sentiment here.

[Rusco]

This is political hijacking of the Golang project, I am disgusted !

On Sunday, 14 June 2020 14:36:38 UTC+1, peterGo wrote:

[Axel Wagner]

Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.

Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate around how what you may say is violating them. But just because it's laws I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a significant number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a presentation or training session could cause problems.  I am not the source or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply with them.

I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go.  To the extent it is an issue it's a local legal issue.  In that way the go code of conduct isn't the primary concern.

[Eric S. Raymond]

Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>:

> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
> and important to do so?

The ensuing dispute over its appropriateness is enough evidence that
it is political.

[Axel Wagner]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:56 AM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)" or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.

It's also not difficult to imagine Orcs and wizarding schools and intergalactic star flight. Doesn't make any of them real.

Are you aware of the optics of responding to a question about real precedence with a different imagined problem?

 

This banner differs only in degree of risk.

Quantitative differences easily become qualitative ones. Being pricked by a needle or getting knifed in the stomach only differ by degree of stabbing. But if I told you that my doctor is trying to kill me, you'd rightly point out that that's an imagined problem.

 

It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.

Assuming that was true, this non-0 amount would still needed to be weighed against the benefits and in this case, the very real plight of people of color across the world. Who are in very, painfully real danger to their lives.

To make that tradeoff, at the very least, we'd need to know the actual amount. But so far, the amount appears to be an actual zero.

This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.

It is, for some people. In fact, it seems to me the only "concern" that was brought up by multiple people. Even if it might not be what this is about for you, you should at least still be aware that you are supporting that as well.

As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial.  I'm concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously (regardless of outcome).

I disagree with this logic. There are millions of anti-vaxxers or flat-earthers. Doesn't mean their claims and concerns have any merit.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.

Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.

[Space A.]

Agree with Peter. It's not the right place and time and disrespectful for the rest of the World. You don't even imagine what problems, social or political, people who live far away from US face each and every day.

[K Davidson]

This mailing list is for the Go Programming Language, there are other places on the internet to discuss unrelated topics.

Please keep posts limited to things about go.

[Axel Wagner]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:04 PM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok.  I live in Singapore.  Here is a statement from the Singapore Police Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or risk being deported:

https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408

Is that concrete enough?

No. The scenario you outlined was that you might link to golang.org or show it in a talk and have that be interpreted as political fundraising. The post is specifically concerned with foreigners organizing public protests. That's basically the polar opposite to "a page I linked to for unrelated reasons also contained a banner-ad for a political non-profit". This is a Ship of Theseus argument. You"re replacing "linking to a site containing a banner" with "political advocacy" and that again with "organizing a public protest" and you are replacing "there's a warning about doing X" with "doing X will cause you real and immanent danger" and you're replacing "Fundraising for a social justice movement" with "interfering in a foreign election". And you're pretending that it's still the same argument.

But it's not. What I'm skeptical on is the specific claim, that this banner will land you, or anyone, in trouble when linking to golang.org.

I would not want any banners that could appear to be political to appear on my screen while giving a public talk.

Then don't show them. You can show screenshots and censor them, for example. But "I don't want to show this piece of info" can hardly be translated to "you shouldn't show it".

I do not want any such banners anywhere near any documentation I might send to a colleague or client.  I want 0 risk of these things happening.  I do not think it is fair to equate this to orcs and wizards.

[Sam Whited]

Why is it disrespectful to the rest of the world? In what way does
supporting the Black Lives Matter movement and an important not-for-
profit diminish from other problems that also need solving?

One of my neighbors recently put it this way: would you walk up to
someone at a breast cancer awareness march and ask "what's wrong with
you, don't you know that all cancers matter?!". Of course you wouldn't.
So ask yourself why people are so willing to do that with this issue in
particular.

—Sam

[Sam Whited]

This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed
here, which is also covered by this mailing list.

[Marvin Renich]

* 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> [200614 20:15]:

> No, what you said is, that objecting to the banner may not be *political*.
> You didn't mention parties and neither did I. And I stand by my statement,
> that objecting to the banner *is* inherently a political act. And that
> claiming to object on the grounds that you don't want politics in the Go
> project is thus paradoxical.

My opinion, and the way I interpreted Peter's original post, is that
this banner is extremely inappropriate, independent of its social or
political views, because it is completely off-topic for the discussion
of the Go language and introduces a highly controversial non-technical
issue into places where people go to discuss a specific technical topic.

I find it even more offensive that it is not just a banner promoting
awareness of a social issue, but contains a request and link soliciting
money.

My alignment for or against any social issue has absolutely no bearing
on my opinion that this type of banner is inappropriate in this context.
I also believe that the people who run these websites have the right to
place banners of this nature if they wish, but they also have a
responsibility to _not_ do so.

...Marvin

[Space A.]

Because there are hundreds or thousands of initiatives to support suffering and dying people in African, Asian, Eastern European, and what else countries that will never be supported by top banner at golang.org.

[Sam Whited]

You're starting from the assumption that anything off-topic to the
language itself is bad. Why do you hold this position?

Even if we accept your position that anything slightly off topic is bad
(although I do not accept that position), this topic is relevant to
everyone trying to build a more diverse and equitable community, and Go
is as much a community of people as it is a language.

—Sam

[Robert Engels]

I think a more specific point to be made is that it is a few select people speaking for the community. In fact, the associating of BLM with the EJI is suspect. Neither org associates with the other and their platforms are in many ways Incompatible.

As a 30+ year major inner city dweller I can testify the issues are complex and nuanced, and people should be really hesitant when speaking for others under the assumption they know what’s best for them.

> On Jun 15, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com> wrote:
>
> This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed

> here, which is also covered by this mailing list.
>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 09:18, K Davidson wrote:
>> Please keep posts limited to things about go.
>

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[Marvin Renich]

* Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com> [200615 09:34]:

> This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed
> here, which is also covered by this mailing list.

This is _so_ wrong. The evidence that this banner has caused
substantial divisiveness and offended many members of the Go community
is obvious in this thread.

In what way does not having the banner affect how welcome people feel on
the Go lists and websites? As long as the discussions on these lists
and websites remain technical, everyone should feel welcome. When you
start discussing unrelated social issues, you are certain to offend some
people.

...Marvin

[Sam Whited]

If the argument were what specific charity to put in the banner this
might be a discussion worth having, however I get the impression that
many of these people are arguing against including a banner at all.

[Sam Whited]

I think long years of experience has shown that this is not the case.
This argument is made frequently and amounts to "let's just ignore the
issues and hope they go away because they only affect a minority among
us". This is one of the reasons for the lack of diversity in this
industry (at least within the United States, I certainly can't speak for
everywhere else).

—Sam

[Robert Engels]

To clarify, that was not the point I was trying to make. If the BLM banner directed donations to BLM org I would have no issue, assuming BLM is a verified not-for-profit.

The community leaders have a right to set the tone and focus for the group. The community can support, accept, ignore or fight their decisions. This community is not a democracy. The members are also free to leave.

By linking BLM and EJI the Go leaders are speaking for both of those groups - which is wrong in my opinion - unless maybe they had prior approval.



> On Jun 15, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com> wrote:
>
> If the argument were what specific charity to put in the banner this

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[Marvin Renich]

[Note To and CC]

Please consider this a formal request for the Go Project Stewards to
review the website banners being discussed in this thread and to make a
determination that these banners are causing divisiveness in the Go
Community and have offended some, and that the banners' content is
inappropriate in this context.

...Marvin

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

I'm saddened by all the snowflakes who can't handle a message they disagree with for a second, which is literally costing them exactly nothing.

I'm also saddened by anyone who thinks the message itself is somehow objectionable. But I won't stop being an anti-racist just because some people are made uncomfortable by the fairly plain message that black lives matter.

I'm disgusted by the dog whistles already blown on this thread.

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[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Eric: It's not your list. You don't get to decide the policies of the list.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 4:44 PM Eric S. Raymond <e...@thyrsus.com> wrote:

Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>:
> This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
> is a social issue. It is a justice issue.

It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not belong.

Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
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[Robert Engels]

Maybe I am confusing the lower case black lives matter with the BLM org and platform - the former I agree with wholeheartedly. I can assure you that elements of the BLM platform are very fringe with little support in the minority community- specifically the defund the police - so having a white person shouting from their ivory tower about what’s right for these communities is laughable.

On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:00 AM, 'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CA%2BYjuxu%3DYzT6mWA1EtThjf8rTjMfefGmfuzYw__0LwMou4W2wQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

It might be helpful to know that the Equal Justice Initiative is strongly supported by the Google.org foundation (https://www.google.org/our-work/inclusion/equal-justice-initiative/) and Google itself (https://about.google/main/google-supports-equal-justice-initiative/), and has been for years. Moreover, golang.org is itself supported by Google.

I would encourage those posting here to reflect on what their message might say to African American contributors, in particular. Are they saying, "you and your contributions are welcome", or are they saying something more guarded and hesitant? And if so, why?

This is not a request for you to answer these questions here, but a request for you to consider them yourself, and place their needs and interests ahead of your own for a moment.

Thomas

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

The Equal Justice Initiative is not "a white person shouting from their ivory tower".

[Nathan Fisher]

Who knew a 50px high desktop only banner was such a usability obstacle.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CA%2BYjuxu%3DYzT6mWA1EtThjf8rTjMfefGmfuzYw__0LwMou4W2wQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Nathan Fisher

 w: http://junctionbox.ca/

[Robert Engels]

I support the EJI 100%. That was not the white person or Ivory tower I was referring to. As a person living with burned out and destroyed buildings on all sides in one of the most violent cities in the US, I am too close to this issue and will no longer comment. I only ask for compassion. 

On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:12 AM, Nathan Fisher <nfi...@junctionbox.ca> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CA%2Bc2dWdg1zrJJQixjLEAv6G8pHDZJ2Zq-VDo-AwLR57zuSbtvQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rick]

I agree with previous posts pointing out that "black lives matter" is not a political message. In fact, it isn't even a social message. It's a statement of fact. Please leave the banner up.

[Jon Reiter]

I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a significant number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a presentation or training session could cause problems.  I am not the source or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply with them.

I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go.  To the extent it is an issue it's a local legal issue.  In that way the go code of conduct isn't the primary concern.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:48 PM Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as a testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.

Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page is the least of your worries.

Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219 countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire community.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
action and what doesn't varies between people.

On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>:
> > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue.
> > It
> > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
>
> It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
> belong.
>
> Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.

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[Jon Reiter]

It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)" or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.   This banner differs only in degree of risk.  It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.

This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments.  It's about not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.

As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial.  I'm concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously (regardless of outcome).

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.

Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.

[Jon Reiter]

Ok.  I live in Singapore.  Here is a statement from the Singapore Police Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or risk being deported:

https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408

Is that concrete enough?  That is a public post from an official government account from 2018 that is quite clear.

I would not want any banners that could appear to be political to appear on my screen while giving a public talk.  I do not want any such banners anywhere near any documentation I might send to a colleague or client.  I want 0 risk of these things happening.  I do not think it is fair to equate this to orcs and wizards.

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:30 PM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)" or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.   This banner differs only in degree of risk.  It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.

This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments.  It's about not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.

I don't want to think about people objecting to anti-racist fundraising, and yet, here we are.

We all sometimes have to think about things we would rather not think about.

Thomas 

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 9:27 AM 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:04 PM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok.  I live in Singapore.  Here is a statement from the Singapore Police Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or risk being deported:

https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408

Is that concrete enough?

You should probably take that into account when deciding on your actions. I don't see how it means you have acquired a right to control other people's actions, including those who run golang.org.

Thomas

[Ian Lance Taylor]

I would like to again remind everyone to be respectful and charitable
in this discussion. Also, please ask yourself whether you really need
to keep this thread going. Consider letting someone else have the
last word, and being the more generous person and walking away.
Thanks.

Ian

[Jon Reiter]

I'll say that my main suggestion is that such links only show in certain regions.  For example, youtube and google filter all kinds of stuff depending on where you are.

Assuming American-style free speech exists everywhere go is used is not good for anybody.  This link sits atop all the godoc.org reference materials used by developers in countries where I am quite sure it is well out of bounds.  I'm not going to comment further.

[Amnon]

The Go community includes programmers of all races, nationalities and cultures.
Every member of the community has the right to go about their daily lives without 
being killed by the police force.

I applaud the decisions of the Go team to take a public stand in favour of this right.
I am surprised that some here have argued that they should not have made such a political statement
out of respect for people abroad. As a Go programmer who lives and works abroad, I can report that
hundreds of thousands have marched here (in the UK), and in many other countries in support of this right. 

Some here have argued that supporting BLM is considered crime by some regimes. In the US thousands have 
been arrested and 12 have been killed by police in BLM protests. We could allow ourselves to be intimidated
into silence. But I, for one, am please that the Go team is prepared to stand up and be counted.

[Eric S. Raymond]

'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com>:

> I don't want to think about people objecting to anti-racist fundraising,
> and yet, here we are.

It's not "anti-racist fundraising" that anybody objects to. It's
politically loaded messaging.

> We all sometimes have to think about things we would rather not think about.

Quite. And we can do it off-list.

[Ugorji Nwoke]

A simple message was posted: "Black Lives Matter. Support the Equal Justice Initiative".

I understand that this is controversial to say in some quarters. I am saddened that this is controversial to say here.

Rust developers succinctly captured why it is appropo to say in https://blog.rust-lang.org/2020/06/04/Rust-1.44.0.html, and I quote:

    "The Rust Core Team believes that tech is and always will be political ..."

If some renowned member of our go community were being publicly treated sub-par and golang.org posted a message of support for that member, no one would bat an eye. Let's have the same empathy here, and not split hairs on semantics. 

From one proud black member of this community to the other members, we could really do without the public display of disapproval right now. It's a very sensitive time.

Thank you.

[sanye]

On 6/15/20 9:48 PM, Space A. wrote:

Because there are hundreds or thousands of initiatives to support suffering and dying people in African, Asian, Eastern European, and what else countries that will never be supported by top banner at golang.org.

    That's right.

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:33:05 PM UTC+3, Sam Whited wrote:

Why is it disrespectful to the rest of the world? In what way does
supporting the Black Lives Matter movement and an important not-for-
profit diminish from other problems that also need solving?

One of my neighbors recently put it this way: would you walk up to
someone at a breast cancer awareness march and ask "what's wrong with
you, don't you know that all cancers matter?!". Of course you wouldn't.
So ask yourself why people are so willing to do that with this issue in
particular.

—Sam

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 08:58, Space A. wrote:
> Agree with Peter. It's not the right place and time and disrespectful
> for the rest of the World. You don't even imagine what problems,
> social or political, people who live far away from US face each and
> every day.

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[Sam Whited]

So you're suggesting that because we can't help all people all of the
time we should help no one at any time? That is a logical fallacy. Right
now in this moment there are protests all over the world about a
specific issue, so yes, a specific cause is being supported because the
time is right, and that is perfectly okay.

—Sam

[sanye]

On 6/16/20 2:43 PM, Sam Whited wrote:

So you're suggesting that because we can't help all people all of the
time we should help no one at any time? That is a logical fallacy. Right
now in this moment there are protests all over the world about a
specific issue, so yes, a specific cause is being supported because the
time is right, and that is perfectly okay.

—Sam

    no, we can, maybe put more banners on the page?

[Rusco]

After all (I think this has been discussed already ), who is owner of the Golang Project ? Isn't this supposed to be an open source / community based project ? 

What about mine political ideas, can I put them also on golang's front page, since I am part of the community ?

Where will we end up in some years if this continues, in middle age inquisition times with some new Jesuits popping up judging others for their political correctness ? 

Isn't Twitter and other social networks enough for articulating political opinions, or someone wants to force them upon us ?  

This is very bad smelling, I vote for leaving golangs' homepage neutral as for now ! Golang.org for golang.org, Twitter and other for politics. 

[Russ Cox]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to reply here to acknowledge the feedback on this thread. I hear those of you who are uncomfortable with the banner, and I appreciate the honest and mostly constructive discussion here.

As the Rust team said well, tech is and will always be political, not in the sense of political parties but in the sense of affecting societal decisions about how opportunities and resources are allocated. The actions we take or decide not to take unavoidably affect who has the opportunity to learn Go, not to mention the opportunities that working as a Go developer can bring. Last November when Go turned 10 I wrote that “what we’re most proud of about Go is not a well-designed feature or a clever bit of code but the positive impact Go has had in so many people’s lives.” We must not be blind to the fact that the impact on people’s lives is not equally distributed – not as widely available as it can or should be. Through actions like adopting a Code of Conduct and supporting organizations like GoBridge, the Go team and the Go community have for years promoted efforts to broaden Go’s reach and stand up for all gophers – and I will quote from the Code of Conduct here – “regardless of gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disabilities, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, ethnicity, nationality, race, age, religion, or similar personal characteristics.”

The banner on our sites is a continuation of that effort, recognizing that at this moment:

• There are problems and inequities affecting gophers that extend far beyond what we can reach with things like a Code of Conduct or additional training opportunities.
• There is a societal reckoning going on here in the United States, of a scale that hasn’t happened in over 50 years, that may lead to real change for many current gophers and hopefully many more future gophers.
• It is important to lend our voices to these efforts, both to support our community members and to help influence those societal decisions I mentioned. Not speaking up, like not adopting a Code of Conduct, is a way of saying everything is fine the way it is. Everything is not fine.
• Gophers may want to help but not know where to start. Donating to the Equal Justice Initiative is only one possible way, but it is a concrete specific action. (As others pointed out, EJI is a well-respected non-profit not affiliated with a U.S. political party.)
  

I gladly credit other open source projects, including React, Express, and OpenTelemetry, for leading the way and inspiring us on the Go team to add this banner. We are happy to join them in making this important statement and specific suggestion.

To people who object to the banner as too focused on the United States: Google and Go both started here, nearly all of the Go team is here, a substantial number of Go community members live here, and many others travel here for conferences or other reasons. The situation here affects gophers worldwide.

To people who think technology can be apolitical or neutral: let me say that when I started working on Go over a decade ago I thought the same thing. If you’re not the one being discriminated against – if the playing field is tilted in your favor – it is very easy not to notice that fact. If you are interested in an honest, critical examination of that belief, let me recommend reading this essay by Peggy McIntosh and then spending the next week building a similar list of examples specific to the tech industry.

Posting this banner on our web sites, affirming that Black Lives Matter and suggesting one possible concrete action to help, is almost literally the least we can do in support of the (far too few) Black gophers in our community. The discussion on this list has at times gotten a little heated, but I hope that it prompts at least a few gophers reading along to become more aware of these real problems and hopefully to think about ways to help make change. If so, the banner is working as intended.

Best,
Russ

[Space A.]

To people who object to the banner as too focused on the United States: Google and Go both started here, nearly all of the Go team is here, a substantial number of Go community members live here, and many others travel here for conferences or other reasons. The situation here affects gophers worldwide.

 

Are you saying you don't care about the rest of the World? This "situation" does not affect in any way many many gophers which have to deal with much more serious problems than you could imagine, on a daily basis. There are a lot of projects originating not from US, who are not trying to get you attention (and money) by putting on top political topics which they think are important and "affecting" everyone.

That's pretty much easy to make this banner appear based on location. But if you insist, I can for sure update ABP filters with a couple of clicks. Never though I would have to do this on programming language main page.

 

[Nate Finch]

Raise your hand if you think black lives don't matter?

Raise your hand if you think "[providing] legal representation to prisoners who may have been wrongly convicted of crimes, poor prisoners without effective representation, and others who may have been denied a fair trial." is a bad thing?

Ok, so what are we talking about?

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:41 AM Space A. <reexi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you saying you don't care about the rest of the World? This "situation" does not affect in any way many many gophers which have to deal with much more serious problems than you could imagine, on a daily basis. There are a lot of projects originating not from US, who are not trying to get you attention (and money) by putting on top political topics which they think are important and "affecting" everyone.

That's pretty much easy to make this banner appear based on location. But if you insist, I can for sure update ABP filters with a couple of clicks. Never though I would have to do this on programming language main page.

I'm a bit confused.  You're correct that there are many worthy causes. I'm confused about why that means this one shouldn't be supported, or that you need to filter the notice out. How does that help the other worthy causes you mention?

Thomas

[K Richard Pixley]

On 6/16/20 5:00 AM, Russ Cox wrote:

...I will quote from the Code of Conduct here – “regardless of gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disabilities, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, ethnicity, nationality, race, age, religion, or similar personal characteristics.”

The banner on our sites is a continuation of that effort, recognizing that at this moment:

Except that it's not.  That's part of the problem.  IMO, and many other people's opinions, the banner is counter to those goals.

I do not agree with the Rust team.  I would prefer to make my technology decisions based on technological criterion.  But if you force me to make that decision based on your religion, on your specific brand of racism, then I will.

There is agreement on the code of conduct.  There is not agreement on the banner.  IMO, the banner is out of line with the goals of this group and with the code of conduct.  It's inappropriate.  It needs to be removed.

The only other alternative keeping with the code of conduct requires many other viewpoints and opinions to be expressed and that process alone would kill the utility of these forums turning them into yet another cesspool of religious disagreement.  We're not going to agree on these social issues.  Agreement with any particular religion should not be required to participate nor should we be required to endure social abuse to do so.

[David Riley]

On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 at 11:52:10 AM UTC-4, K Richard Pixley wrote:

There is agreement on the code of conduct.  There is not agreement on the banner.  IMO, the banner is out of line with the goals of this group and with the code of conduct.  It's inappropriate.  It needs to be removed.

You're welcome to submit a CL and have the community vote on it. I look forward to voting on your submission.

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:51 AM 'K Richard Pixley' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I do not agree with the Rust team.  I would prefer to make my technology decisions based on technological criterion.  But if you force me to make that decision based on your religion, on your specific brand of racism, then I will.

How does seeing the banner force you to stop using Go, even if you disagree with its message? 

The only other alternative keeping with the code of conduct requires many other viewpoints and opinions to be expressed and that process alone would kill the utility of these forums turning them into yet another cesspool of religious disagreement.  We're not going to agree on these social issues.  Agreement with any particular religion should not be required to participate nor should we be required to endure social abuse to do so

I don't see how that follows at all. First of all, I reject the notion that an anti-racism banner creates a "cesspool" or even moves toward that even a hair's breadth. But I don't understand why you think that if one cause is advertised, all should be, or that if a non-abusive banner is present, then abusive ones must be allowed too.

Thomas 

[K Richard Pixley]

On 6/16/20 09:04, 'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts wrote:

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:51 AM 'K Richard Pixley' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I do not agree with the Rust team.  I would prefer to make my technology decisions based on technological criterion.  But if you force me to make that decision based on your religion, on your specific brand of racism, then I will.

How does seeing the banner force you to stop using Go, even if you disagree with its message?

If using go necessarily means supporting racism, then I will be forced to stop.

I don't see how that follows at all. First of all, I reject the notion that an anti-racism

It's not "anti-racism", though.  It's pro-racism.  It may be a popular racism, but it's pro-racism.

banner creates a "cesspool" or even moves toward that even a hair's breadth. But I don't understand why you think that if one cause is advertised, all should be, or that if a non-abusive banner is present, then abusive ones must be allowed too.

Exactly.  So we need to remove the abusive banner.

Jumping up a level, I think you can see that there isn't agreement here.  We haven't even agreed on terms.  And attempting to do so isn't really in the charter of this group.

[Ian Lance Taylor]

This thread is visibly not working.

I would like to ask everyone to do their very best to let this thread
drop. Please do not try to get the last word.

If you absolutely must continue, I strongly encourage you to take it
to private e-mail, off the list.

This applies to everyone, regardless of your position on the issues.

Thank you.

Ian

[人间不值得]

I thought, Everyone live matters. not just only Black. (White, yellow..)

Did their lives matter?

Golang stand only for black live matters. What about your country , you people. Russ cox, You are white, did you live matters?

peterGo於 2020年6月14日星期日 UTC+8下午9時36分38秒寫道：

[Ian Lance Taylor]

Please respect my request to let this thread drop.

Thank you.

Ian