Re: [go-nuts] Digest for golang-nuts@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 4 topics

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Michael Ellis

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Jun 15, 2020, 10:26:29 AM6/15/20
to golang-nuts
Ok, I just can't help chiming in here. Given that a couple of snippets save the extra keystrokes and a smart folder saves the screen space, it's hard to see why this issue gets so much discussion.
Cheers,
Mike

“I want you to act as if the house was on fire. Because it is.” — Greta Thunberg


On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:06 AM <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Ian Lance Taylor <ia...@golang.org>: Jun 14 04:30PM -0700

Let's please all remember to be respectful and charitable in this
discussion, per the gopher values in the code of conduct. Let's not let
this go off the rails. Thanks.
 
Ian
Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com>: Jun 15 02:14AM +0200


> All I pointed out was that someone objecting to this may not be doing
> based on political party affiliations.
 
No, what you said is, that objecting to the banner may not be *political*.
You didn't mention parties and neither did I. And I stand by my statement,
that objecting to the banner *is* inherently a political act. And that
claiming to object on the grounds that you don't want politics in the Go
project is thus paradoxical.
 
Do you think all Democrats think alike on all issues? This is the problem
Jesse McNelis <jes...@jessta.id.au>: Jun 15 11:51AM +1000

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:12 AM andrey mirtchovski <mirtc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
 
 
> I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
> on golang.org for me?
 
> (reductio ad absurdum)
 
This sounds like a great idea to me. It would probably need to be a
non-profit that furthers the Go language by expanding the reach and appeal
of the community to underrepresented groups.
Perhaps someone could put together a policy on what kind of non-profits
that would involve and this could be an ongoing thing.
Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com>: Jun 15 12:11PM +0800

Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at
events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause. And
that's illegal in much of the world. Per google, google operates in 219
countries. This could force community members to argue in any of at least
219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law. Not the golang code
of conduct, local law. That is a decision that impacts the entire
community.
 
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <
Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com>: Jun 15 08:48AM +0200

I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as a
testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.
Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a
foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in
the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any
judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page
is the least of your worries.
 
Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct as
not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just
pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is
pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.
 
Marian Kopriva <marian...@gmail.com>: Jun 14 11:52PM -0700

I agree with Peter's sentiment here.
 
On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 3:36:38 PM UTC+2, peterGo wrote:
Rusco <j.re...@gmail.com>: Jun 15 02:16AM -0700

This is political hijacking of the Golang project, I am disgusted !
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
On Sunday, 14 June 2020 14:36:38 UTC+1, peterGo wrote:
Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com>: Jun 15 11:23AM +0200

Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have
precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page
for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some
real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.
 
Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I
believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate
around how what you may say is violating them. But just because it's laws I
make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.
 
"Eric S. Raymond" <e...@thyrsus.com>: Jun 15 05:55AM -0400

> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
> and important to do so?
 
The ensuing dispute over its appropriateness is enough evidence that
it is political.
--
<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com>: Jun 15 12:55PM +0200


> It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)"
> or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.
 
It's also not difficult to imagine Orcs and wizarding schools and
intergalactic star flight. Doesn't make any of them real.
Are you aware of the optics of responding to a question about real
precedence with a different imagined problem?
 
 
> This banner differs only in degree of risk.
 
Quantitative differences easily become qualitative ones. Being pricked by a
needle or getting knifed in the stomach only differ by degree of stabbing.
But if I told you that my doctor is trying to kill me, you'd rightly point
out that that's an imagined problem.
 
 
> It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.
 
Assuming that was true, this non-0 amount would still needed to be weighed
against the benefits and in this case, the very real plight of people of
color across the world. Who are in very, painfully real danger to their
lives.
To make that tradeoff, at the very least, we'd need to know the actual
amount. But so far, the amount appears to be an actual zero.
 
This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about
> not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.
 
It is, for some people. In fact, it seems to me the only "concern" that was
brought up by multiple people. Even if it might not be what this is about
for you, you should at least still be aware that you are supporting that as
well.
 
As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial. I'm
> concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed
> concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously
> (regardless of outcome).
 
I disagree with this logic. There are millions of anti-vaxxers or
flat-earthers. Doesn't mean their claims and concerns have any merit.
 
 
"Space A." <reexi...@gmail.com>: Jun 15 05:58AM -0700

Agree with Peter. It's not the right place and time and disrespectful for
the rest of the World. You don't even imagine what problems, social or
political, people who live far away from US face each and every day.
 
 
On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 4:36:38 PM UTC+3, peterGo wrote:
K Davidson <kde...@gmail.com>: Jun 15 06:18AM -0700

This mailing list is for the Go Programming Language, there are other places on the internet to discuss unrelated topics.
 
Please keep posts limited to things about go.
Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com>: Jun 15 03:26PM +0200

> risk being deported:
> https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408
> Is that concrete enough?
 
No. The scenario you outlined was that you might link to golang.org or show
it in a talk and have that be interpreted as political fundraising. The
post is specifically concerned with foreigners organizing public protests.
That's basically the polar opposite to "a page I linked to for unrelated
reasons also contained a banner-ad for a political non-profit". This is a Ship
of Theseus <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui-ArJRqEvU> argument. You"re
replacing "linking to a site containing a banner" with "political advocacy"
and that again with "organizing a public protest" and you are replacing
"there's a warning about doing X" with "doing X will cause you real and
immanent danger" and you're replacing "Fundraising for a social justice
movement" with "interfering in a foreign election". And you're pretending
that it's still the same argument.
 
But it's not. What I'm skeptical on is the specific claim, that this banner
will land you, or anyone, in trouble when linking to golang.org.
 
I would not want any banners that could appear to be political to appear on
> my screen while giving a public talk.
 
Then don't show them. You can show screenshots and censor them, for
example. But "I don't want to show this piece of info" can hardly be
translated to "you shouldn't show it".
 
I do not want any such banners anywhere near any documentation I might send
"Sam Whited" <s...@samwhited.com>: Jun 15 09:32AM -0400

Why is it disrespectful to the rest of the world? In what way does
supporting the Black Lives Matter movement and an important not-for-
profit diminish from other problems that also need solving?
 
One of my neighbors recently put it this way: would you walk up to
someone at a breast cancer awareness march and ask "what's wrong with
you, don't you know that all cancers matter?!". Of course you wouldn't.
So ask yourself why people are so willing to do that with this issue in
particular.
 
—Sam
 
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 08:58, Space A. wrote:
"Sam Whited" <s...@samwhited.com>: Jun 15 09:33AM -0400

This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed
here, which is also covered by this mailing list.
 
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 09:18, K Davidson wrote:
Marvin Renich <mr...@renich.org>: Jun 15 09:43AM -0400

> that objecting to the banner *is* inherently a political act. And that
> claiming to object on the grounds that you don't want politics in the Go
> project is thus paradoxical.
 
My opinion, and the way I interpreted Peter's original post, is that
this banner is extremely inappropriate, independent of its social or
political views, because it is completely off-topic for the discussion
of the Go language and introduces a highly controversial non-technical
issue into places where people go to discuss a specific technical topic.
 
I find it even more offensive that it is not just a banner promoting
awareness of a social issue, but contains a request and link soliciting
money.
 
My alignment for or against any social issue has absolutely no bearing
on my opinion that this type of banner is inappropriate in this context.
I also believe that the people who run these websites have the right to
place banners of this nature if they wish, but they also have a
responsibility to _not_ do so.
 
...Marvin
"Sam Whited" <s...@samwhited.com>: Jun 15 09:47AM -0400

You're starting from the assumption that anything off-topic to the
language itself is bad. Why do you hold this position?
 
Even if we accept your position that anything slightly off topic is bad
(although I do not accept that position), this topic is relevant to
everyone trying to build a more diverse and equitable community, and Go
is as much a community of people as it is a language.
 
—Sam
 
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 09:43, Marvin Renich wrote:
"Space A." <reexi...@gmail.com>: Jun 15 06:48AM -0700

Because there are hundreds or thousands of initiatives to support suffering
and dying people in African, Asian, Eastern European, and what else
countries that will never be supported by top banner at golang.org.
 
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:33:05 PM UTC+3, Sam Whited wrote:
Robert Engels <ren...@ix.netcom.com>: Jun 15 09:04AM -0500

I think a more specific point to be made is that it is a few select people speaking for the community. In fact, the associating of BLM with the EJI is suspect. Neither org associates with the other and their platforms are in many ways Incompatible.
 
As a 30+ year major inner city dweller I can testify the issues are complex and nuanced, and people should be really hesitant when speaking for others under the assumption they know what’s best for them.
 
Marvin Renich <mr...@renich.org>: Jun 15 10:05AM -0400

> This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed
> here, which is also covered by this mailing list.
 
This is _so_ wrong. The evidence that this banner has caused
substantial divisiveness and offended many members of the Go community
is obvious in this thread.
 
In what way does not having the banner affect how welcome people feel on
the Go lists and websites? As long as the discussions on these lists
and websites remain technical, everyone should feel welcome. When you
start discussing unrelated social issues, you are certain to offend some
people.
 
...Marvin
envee <neeraj....@gmail.com>: Jun 15 06:29AM -0700

I am running a program which reads multiple gzipped input files and
performs some processing on each line of the file.
It creates 8 goroutines (1 per input file which is to be processed. the
number of such files can be thought to remain 8 at the max).
Each of the go routines send to a buffered channel after finishing
processing of their respective file.
After creating the go routines, the program waits (using WaitGroup) for all
go routines to finish and also drain the channel for all the values sent by
the go routines.
 
I have an 4 core CPU with 2 threads per core = 8 logical cores.
 
But I set GOMAXPROCS=4
 
When I run the program with scheduler trace interval set to 1000ms, I can
see the following :
 
SCHED 1001ms: gomaxprocs=4 idleprocs=0 threads=8 spinningthreads=0
idlethreads=0 runqueue=0 [0 0 0 1]
SCHED 2008ms: gomaxprocs=4 idleprocs=0 threads=8 spinningthreads=0
idlethreads=1 runqueue=0 [1 0 5 0]
SCHED 3015ms: gomaxprocs=4 idleprocs=0 threads=8 spinningthreads=0
idlethreads=1 runqueue=1 [0 0 1 0]
SCHED 4022ms: gomaxprocs=4 idleprocs=0 threads=9 spinningthreads=0
idlethreads=2 runqueue=0 [0 0 0 0]
SCHED 5029ms: gomaxprocs=4 idleprocs=0 threads=9 spinningthreads=0
idlethreads=2 runqueue=1 [0 0 0 4]
 
 
If I create 8 go routines, shouldn't they all be distributed equally among
the 4 logical cores ?
 
Why do some runqueues of the logical cores show values of 4 or 5 and some
have values of 0 ?
 
I was hoping to see something like which I according to my understanding
means that all 4 processors have 1 go routine each waiting in the local
runqueue and at the same time has 1 go routine running on the assigned OS
Thread :
 
SCHED 1001ms: gomaxprocs=4 idleprocs=0 threads=8 spinningthreads=0
idlethreads=0 runqueue=0 [1 1 1 1]
 
Thanks.
David Skinner <skinne...@gmail.com>: Jun 14 05:37PM -0700

I am very very old, and very old school, so I always start with UMLs and
ERDs and design my apps long before I do any coding. These flowcharts are
visual representations that are concise and easy to understand and they are
saved as XML which can be parsed by a Go program controlled by +generate in
the docs.go file to boilerplate most of my code. Other Go programmers have
written parsers that convert Go programs to UML and ERDs. I am stressing
these concepts because they are useful abstractions that are quite common
and implementation is usually quite consistent. and I design my apps, not
at a computer, but rather at a Cajun restaurant using napkins while
discussing the issues with the stakeholders. We do have a default standard
project framework but it is mostly just empty directories to guide the
juniors into placing things in a consistent way. Most frameworks are very
opinionated, they may make life easier for a while, but first, you must
learn the framework and then you learn how to get around the limitations of
the framework. With Go, I can roll my own and we can have something that is
ideal for our clients, even if no one else wants to use it.
 
On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 3:11:59 PM UTC-5, Asim Aslam wrote:
Saied Seghatoleslami <seghatol...@gmail.com>: Jun 14 08:12PM -0700

As evidence for not needing the next layer of abstraction, I offer Django
class-based-views. The go approach is much more understandable and easier
to follow.
 
On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 4:11:59 PM UTC-4, Asim Aslam wrote:
Anderson Queiroz <anderson...@blacklane.com>: Jun 15 12:41AM -0700

My opinion is that one of the reasons other languages need a framework is
that the standard library is too hard to work with. So the frameworks take
some of these burden and also take a lot of decisions for the you. In Go
the standard library is powerful and simple enough to us to build the
abstractions we need on top of it. Of course nothing is perfect and we see
some big libs solving some problem such as routing, what is good, and we
use them. Also even with frameworks I see companied tend to create another
layer on top of them to enforce/facilitate their standards, the same
happens in Go, we end up creating libs which no framework will replace as
they are company specific. That's why we don't need a big framework for Go,
if there was indeed this need we'd see some arising, but again, as the
standard lib is so good we don't need one.
Randall O'Reilly <rcore...@gmail.com>: Jun 14 06:49PM -0700

I noticed a kind of circularity in the arguments around this issue. The simple "inline the if block" issue was created and rejected earlier: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/27135 -- in part because the central issue of error handling logic was supposed to be resolved by some other upcoming proposals. The newer issue: https://golang.org/issue/38151 has some additional elements that potentially detract from the basic gofmt-only version, and it has also been closed. There is also this closely related proposal which has not yet been rejected: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/37141
 
Overall there is certainly a consistent message from a substantial number of people that just compressing that high-frequency `if err != nil` logic down to 1 line *somehow* would solve most of the problem! But then there are those who argue in favor of the status quo.
 
Because consistency in formatting is an essential part of Go, it seems that this is fundamentally an "aesthetic" decision that must either be made by the core designers, or, perhaps, finding some way of performing a large-scale democratic voting process that would reasonably enable a large portion of the Go community to weigh in. It does seem that a lot of key decisions are being made on the basis of a very small sample of emoji votes in the issue tracker, so having a broader voting mechanism might be useful for informing the decision making process.. Anyone know how to write a good vote-collecting webserver in Go? :)
 
- Randy
 
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