--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/a835a146-bea9-44e4-ad47-79e286bd2528o%40googlegroups.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/73d53e75-cee0-44a7-8ce7-2ffb029b1b5b%40www.fastmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d7710db8-7e16-4e36-aa76-627de71cb7e9%40www.fastmail.com.
On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CAEkBMfH12W0uj6UNRB6Y2mdBgb7w-nze0O_afJAZ0i5KwATW7A%40mail.gmail.com.
Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how best to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CAK4xykXE8fGZ%2BZCUm-7QR13OKkv%2Bsa5fCEB3bXHh%3DTWACbWLVw%40mail.gmail.com.
All I pointed out was that someone objecting to this may not be doing based on political party affiliations.
Hi,
I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
on golang.org for me?
(reductio ad absurdum)
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d396661a24dd31c0f97842cd69dd939437bf2e4c.camel%40kortschak.io.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CABZtUk6QNmqm0JyG8N7YmYE98V_THupKZUuar%3Df7jx_WwJEWmg%40mail.gmail.com.
I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a significant number of people. It is not hard to imagine a setting in many major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a presentation or training session could cause problems. I am not the source or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply with them.I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go. To the extent it is an issue it's a local legal issue. In that way the go code of conduct isn't the primary concern.
It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)" or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.
This banner differs only in degree of risk.
It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.
This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.
As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial. I'm concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously (regardless of outcome).
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner <axel.wa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.
Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.
Please keep posts limited to things about go.
Ok. I live in Singapore. Here is a statement from the Singapore Police Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or risk being deported:Is that concrete enough?
I would not want any banners that could appear to be political to appear on my screen while giving a public talk.
I do not want any such banners anywhere near any documentation I might send to a colleague or client. I want 0 risk of these things happening. I do not think it is fair to equate this to orcs and wizards.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/20200615142640.2p37xxlnammendrr%40basil.wdw.
Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>:
> This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
> is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not belong.
Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
--
<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/20200614204443.GE38032%40thyrsus.com.
On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:00 AM, 'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CA%2BYjuxu%3DYzT6mWA1EtThjf8rTjMfefGmfuzYw__0LwMou4W2wQ%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CA%2BYjuxu%3DYzT6mWA1EtThjf8rTjMfefGmfuzYw__0LwMou4W2wQ%40mail.gmail.com.
On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:12 AM, Nathan Fisher <nfi...@junctionbox.ca> wrote:
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CA%2Bc2dWdg1zrJJQixjLEAv6G8pHDZJ2Zq-VDo-AwLR57zuSbtvQ%40mail.gmail.com.
I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as a testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page is the least of your worries.Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:
Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause. And that's illegal in much of the world. Per google, google operates in 219 countries. This could force community members to argue in any of at least 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law. Not the golang code of conduct, local law. That is a decision that impacts the entire community.
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
action and what doesn't varies between people.
On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>:
> > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue.
> > It
> > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
>
> It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
> belong.
>
> Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d396661a24dd31c0f97842cd69dd939437bf2e4c.camel%40kortschak.io.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CABZtUk6QNmqm0JyG8N7YmYE98V_THupKZUuar%3Df7jx_WwJEWmg%40mail.gmail.com.
Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.
It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)" or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems. This banner differs only in degree of risk. It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:04 PM Jon Reiter <jonr...@gmail.com> wrote:Ok. I live in Singapore. Here is a statement from the Singapore Police Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or risk being deported:Is that concrete enough?
Because there are hundreds or thousands of initiatives to support suffering and dying people in African, Asian, Eastern European, and what else countries that will never be supported by top banner at golang.org.
That's right.
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:33:05 PM UTC+3, Sam Whited wrote:Why is it disrespectful to the rest of the world? In what way does
supporting the Black Lives Matter movement and an important not-for-
profit diminish from other problems that also need solving?
One of my neighbors recently put it this way: would you walk up to
someone at a breast cancer awareness march and ask "what's wrong with
you, don't you know that all cancers matter?!". Of course you wouldn't.
So ask yourself why people are so willing to do that with this issue in
particular.
—Sam
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 08:58, Space A. wrote:
> Agree with Peter. It's not the right place and time and disrespectful
> for the rest of the World. You don't even imagine what problems,
> social or political, people who live far away from US face each and
> every day.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/0d083f13-9977-4da5-8ee9-8854c079ba2eo%40googlegroups.com.
So you're suggesting that because we can't help all people all of the time we should help no one at any time? That is a logical fallacy. Right now in this moment there are protests all over the world about a specific issue, so yes, a specific cause is being supported because the time is right, and that is perfectly okay. —Sam
To people who object to the banner as too focused on the United States: Google and Go both started here, nearly all of the Go team is here, a substantial number of Go community members live here, and many others travel here for conferences or other reasons. The situation here affects gophers worldwide.
Are you saying you don't care about the rest of the World? This "situation" does not affect in any way many many gophers which have to deal with much more serious problems than you could imagine, on a daily basis. There are a lot of projects originating not from US, who are not trying to get you attention (and money) by putting on top political topics which they think are important and "affecting" everyone.That's pretty much easy to make this banner appear based on location. But if you insist, I can for sure update ABP filters with a couple of clicks. Never though I would have to do this on programming language main page.
...I will quote from the Code of Conduct here – “regardless of gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disabilities, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, ethnicity, nationality, race, age, religion, or similar personal characteristics.”
The banner on our sites is a continuation of that effort, recognizing that at this moment:
Except that it's not. That's part of the problem. IMO, and many other people's opinions, the banner is counter to those goals.
I do not agree with the Rust team. I would prefer to make my technology decisions based on technological criterion. But if you force me to make that decision based on your religion, on your specific brand of racism, then I will.
There is agreement on the code of conduct. There is not agreement on the banner. IMO, the banner is out of line with the goals of this group and with the code of conduct. It's inappropriate. It needs to be removed.
The only other alternative keeping with the code of conduct
requires many other viewpoints and opinions to be expressed and
that process alone would kill the utility of these forums turning
them into yet another cesspool of religious disagreement. We're
not going to agree on these social issues. Agreement with any
particular religion should not be required to participate nor
should we be required to endure social abuse to do so.
There is agreement on the code of conduct. There is not agreement on the banner. IMO, the banner is out of line with the goals of this group and with the code of conduct. It's inappropriate. It needs to be removed.
I do not agree with the Rust team. I would prefer to make my technology decisions based on technological criterion. But if you force me to make that decision based on your religion, on your specific brand of racism, then I will.
The only other alternative keeping with the code of conduct requires many other viewpoints and opinions to be expressed and that process alone would kill the utility of these forums turning them into yet another cesspool of religious disagreement. We're not going to agree on these social issues. Agreement with any particular religion should not be required to participate nor should we be required to endure social abuse to do so
On 6/16/20 09:04, 'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts wrote:
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:51 AM 'K Richard Pixley' via golang-nuts <golan...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I do not agree with the Rust team. I would prefer to make my technology decisions based on technological criterion. But if you force me to make that decision based on your religion, on your specific brand of racism, then I will.
How does seeing the banner force you to stop using Go, even if you disagree with its message?
I don't see how that follows at all. First of all, I reject the notion that an anti-racism
banner creates a "cesspool" or even moves toward that even a hair's breadth. But I don't understand why you think that if one cause is advertised, all should be, or that if a non-abusive banner is present, then abusive ones must be allowed too.
Exactly. So we need to remove the abusive banner.
Jumping up a level, I think you can see that there isn't agreement here. We haven't even agreed on terms. And attempting to do so isn't really in the charter of this group.