Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

[Neil van der Linden]

MADE WITH INFORMATION STOLEN FROM THE PORTUGUESE, AMSTERDAM, 1595

A map of Asia, showing Japan, from Jan Huygen van Linschoten's groundbreaking travel book.

The maps itself was published in his 'Itinerario' of 1595, a book of such importance that every Dutch ship bound for the Indies was issued a copy. It allowed Dutch merchants to circumvent the Portuguese stranglehold on trade to the East.

Title Exacta & accurata delineatio cum orarum maritimdrum tum etjam locorum terrestrium quae in regionibus China, Cauchinchina, Camboja sive Champa, Syao, Malacca, Arracan & Pegu, una cum omninum vicinarum insularum descriptione ut sunt Samatra, Java utraq., Timora, Molucca, Philippina, Luconja & de Lequeos dicta; nec non insulae Japan & Corea.

Author LINSCHOTEN, Jan Huyghen van.

Publication place Amsterdam.

Publication date 1595.

Hand-coloured engraved map.

[fredericknoronha]

Neil, You're throwing the cat among the pigeons :-) Expect an early and studied response from Patrice.

In addition to that, I'm not sure if 21st century norms could be juxtaposed on the 16th or 17th centuries... when might-is-right, plagiarism, knowledge theft, copyright violations and accessing info through stealth had entirely different connotations. Linschoten's life [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Huyghen_van_Linschoten] was indeed very colourful, no doubt about that. FN

[Neil van der Linden]

Thanks I should not have omitted the opiniated comment from the person who shared this on Facebook.

It was not my opinion. 

I will resend it with that comment added.

And you are right about not applying our ideas about ‘copyright’. In fact every information and every creation is copied at least to a certain degree.

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[Neil van der Linden]

The comment in capitals was not by me but by Aneta Martaj Horvat, who shared this map and additional comment on Facebook.

[albe...@sapo.pt]

At that time, the Europeans did everything they could to get their hands on the wealth of the Asians. The English, French, Dutch and Portuguese spied on each other, fought among themselves, conspired and even found allies among the Asian traitors and informers.

A Rota das Especiarias

de John Keay

[John de Figueiredo]

SOME Europeans “did everything they could to get their hands on the wealth of the Asians”. But there were other Europeans (Portuguese) who did not do that and some who called to task those who stole (like Vasco da Gama when he was Viceroy of Portuguese India).

John M. de Figueiredo 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 2, 2024, at 11:15 AM, albe...@sapo.pt wrote:



At that time, the Europeans did everything they could to get their hands on the wealth of the Asians. The English, French, Dutch and Portuguese spied on each other, fought among themselves, conspired and even found allies among the Asian traitors and informers.

A Rota das Especiarias

de John Keay

<image.png>

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[Patrice Riemens]

Hola Aloha,

Since I am a bit slow in reading and also not following GRN very assiduously (no particular ill feeling, just never been very assiduous ;-) it's only now that I discover Frederick had expected a 'studied' rejoinder from me on the 'stolen from the Portuguese' issue. 

Well, as 'our Hippie ('from Hell') in Basel', my friend Barbara Strebel always says "the Dutch are pirates", so no wonder they stole maps from the Portuguese. Whom, on their turn, were not particularly inclined towards 'open access' either. I believe there was something like the death penalty in store for anyone who turned their precious (if imprecise) maps into other hands. So if you wanted 'm and  weren't Portuguese, and in the know/ right circles, you had to 'hack' them. 

The Dutch were also no fan of open access, wether in the info or in the concrete sense. There was this famous Dutch thinker/philosopher/theoretician Hugo de Groot ('Grotius') who very conveniently wrote two theoretical treatises on the 'freedom of the seas' (or not), one on the 'open sea' - that is where some other power than the Dutch had establish a monopoly, and one on the 'closed sea', where it was the Dutch who had that monopoly, like to and in the East Indies.

Funny how those days resemble ours ...

But then I am not a historian - and I wrote this out of hands, without research (hence no refs)

Cheers to all, p+2D! 

---

From: "John de Figueiredo" <john...@sbcglobal.net>
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 2 October, 2024 19:07:12
Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

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[albe...@sapo.pt]

John. Vasco (Vasco foi Gamar, as some Portuguese say) attacked ships in the Indian Ocean, killed their crew and looted everything. Do you think the Portuguese were different?  What do you think of the black slaves from Africa taken to the American continent? The Inquisition in Goa? You cannot whitewash the history recorded and archived in France, Venice and Florence (Italy), the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, India, etc. (The verb Gamar in Portuguese means to steal).

Alberto, professor aposentado de Historia.

----- Mensagem de John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net> ---------

Data: Wed, 2 Oct 2024 13:07:12 -0400

De: John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net>

Assunto: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

[Nuno Cardoso da Silva]

Alberto,

The Portuguese stole as much as any other nation. The Portuguese difference was the willingness of mixing with other ethnic groups, from the casual sexual intercourse to marriage and to the ability to "go native". We might on occasion consider the "natives" primitive, but that never stopped us from having normal intercourse with them. Considerations of racial purity never came to our minds. We might not have been very tolerant in respect of religion, but race differences never bothered us...

 

Nuno Cardoso da Silva

 

 

Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2024 at 11:40 AM
From: albe...@sapo.pt
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

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[John de Figueiredo]

Your statement was “Europeans did everything they could to get their hands on the wealth of the Asians.” This blanket condemnation may be politically correct but it is demonstrably incorrect and grossly misleading.

With this I will end this conversation. I have neither the time nor the desire to engage into a debate with you.

John M. de Figueiredo 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 3, 2024, at 6:55 AM, albe...@sapo.pt wrote:



[Joao Paulo Cota]

Quite a few historical books mention about the nature of Portuguese who went to places like Goa. They were often uneducated, from the country side, rough, brutes and with hardly any etiquete.

Hence, their needs were obviously more of a very basic nature...

Possibly why race was never an issue to them to have personal relationships with the native population, as long as their personal needs were met.

Also, on other reference material, educated Portuguese often made highly derogatory remarks on the native population, calling them 'barbarians' and 'savages'. Of course, the average natives of the land would not have any universities and libraries to get themselves any refined education. Making such lame comparisons, only showed their lack of intellect and reasoning, despite having attended schools and colleges.

There is hardly any evidence that these higher class colonisers have mingled as much with the local 'barbarian' populace, as much as the uneducated, coloniser 'brutes' did.

Hence there was an unspoken, racial issue based on social class.

Vasco da Gama never discovered India, the arabs did in the 8th century. He would ha been nowhere if not for the help of the Omani navigator Ibn Majid who had been requested to guide VDG to the Malabar coast in india in 1498.

Else he would had met the same fate as Colombo the drunkard, who got lost in the Carribean and assuming he reached India, called the place the West Indies.

History needs a bit of an update.      

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[Nuno Cardoso da Silva]

We often speak of the 15th and 16th centuries as if standards then were equal to ours today. Both India and Portugal had then a tiny educated minority and a large uneducated majority. Uneducated Portuguese got along fine with uneducated Indian, and probably not so well with the educated of both communities, and the educated Portuguese despised the uneducated Indian, just as educated Indian would despise uneducated Portuguese. But the issue was not basically racial.

 

I'm sure we could agree on lots of things and disagree on a few ones. But we certainly do not need references to "Colombo the drunkard"...

 

Nuno

 

 

Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2024 at 10:22 PM
From: "Joao Paulo Cota" <joao...@hotmail.com>

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[Andrew Pereira]

I don't think even the Arabs can claim to have discovered India. There were the Greeks, Romans, Persians before them.

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[John de Figueiredo]

Small correction. Ibn Majid was not the Muslim pilot who helped Vasco da Gama according to current research.

Sometimes connecting the dots is as important as discovering something anew. Einstein, Watson, and Crick connected the dots. Vasco da Gama connected the dots. This was a major contribution for which he deserves credit. Moreover, during his brief tenure as Viceroy (yes, he was in Goa) he took drastic measures to end the stealing and the corruption.

Nobility also married Goan natives or lived with them. An example was Diogo Rodrigues “o do Forte” who demolished Hindu temples (and this action of his was condemned by the Senate of Goa, then composed only of Portuguese Europeans). He married a Goan woman (Hindu converted to Catholicism) and became the owner of a large property in Colva’. This so-called “miscegenation” of the Portuguese was condemned by Linschoten who was a racist.

There was racism (and “castism”) in Goa before the arrival of the Portuguese. There was also death by fire in Goa before the arrival of the Portuguese, a practice the Portuguese ended. There was racism throughout the Portuguese Empire. But my point is that not every Portuguese or European who came to Goa was a racist or a thief. Some, like Francis Xavier and Luiz de Camões, condemned the stealing and corruption. Francis Xavier fired a fellow Jesuit (European) and expelled him from the Society of Jesus Christ because he had engaged in a racist behavior against the Goans while he (Xavier) was away from Goa.

John M. de Figueiredo 

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On Oct 4, 2024, at 4:52 AM, Joao Paulo Cota <joao...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[John de Figueiredo]

Yes. But there were also educated Portuguese who praised the local people and the local culture in Goa. 

I do not believe the Dutch named academic institutions in the Netherlands after the natives of the lands they occupied. Or built statues 

honoring those natives.

The English did not do that either as far as I know. Quite the opposite.

And they never declared those natives as citizens of their countries. Or declared that those lands were part of their Fatherland.

In the 16th and 17th centuries the Portuguese passed anti-Hindu laws in Goa they did not enforce and to which they opened many exceptions. Linschoten wrote that all religions were freely practiced in Goa in his time.

There were many Hindus in Goa who actively and willingly cooperated with the Portuguese. To call them “traitors” on the basis of our current political views is absurd.

In truth the history of Goa is full of paradoxes and contradictions precluding generalizations.

John M. de Figueiredo 

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On Oct 4, 2024, at 4:52 AM, Joao Paulo Cota <joao...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[Roland Francis]

So much for the ‘elite’ Goan families who take endless pleasure in claiming to be progeny of the Portuguese presence in Goa - the administrators and the police and army.

Roland Francis
416-453-3371

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[John de Figueiredo]

Correction: Should be “Society of Jesus”, not “Society of Jesus Christ”.

JM de Figueiredo 

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On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:17 PM, John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Small correction. Ibn Majid was not the Muslim pilot who helped Vasco da Gama according to current research.

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[Mike Pinto]

What was the name of the priest ousted by SFX for bein racist

Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer

On Fri., 4 Oct. 2024 at 7:17 p.m., John de Figueiredo

<john...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

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[John de Figueiredo]

Not every Portuguese who came to Goa, settled in Goa, and married Goans or within their own group was “uneducated, from the countryside, rough, brute, and with hardly any etiquette.” This is a stereotype unsupported by the data. Many came from Portuguese aristocratic families, refined, and educated, and they contributed immensely to the culture of Goa. In fact, the Island of Chorão, where many of them lived, was known as “Ilha dos Fidalgos” (Island of Nobility). Here is an excellent reference on this subject published by Fundação Oriente:

Jorge Forjaz and José Francisco de Noronha 

Os Luso-Descendentes da Índia Portuguesa.

Fundação Oriente, Lisboa 2003 ISBN: 972-785-044-8.

This book describes the biographies of more than 300 Portuguese families established in Goa, Daman, Diu, Bassein, and Mumbai.

John M. de Figueiredo 

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On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:17 PM, Roland Francis <roland....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Nazareth]

I would like to provide a statistician’s view on this topic.

When we talk about the elite Goan families taking pleasure in being the progeny of the Portuguese presence in Goa, I presume we are talking about the cultural progeny, not physical progeny. True mixed race marriages were predominantly Portuguese men marrying Goan women. They would live in the City of Goa (“Old Goa”) which was quite cosmopolitan. (Extremely few Portuguese women came to Goa.) They would have had difficulty living in the Goan villages because of the highly structured society of the gaunkari.

That is why in the villages (where most of the Goans lived once the great City of Goa got depopulated) there is very little evidence of admixture of Goans and Portuguese. My own DNA analysis with “23andme” found that I have only 0.2% Portuguese blood. My family spans Moira (Bardez), Malar (Divar – Tiswadi)), and Benaulim (Salcette).

And in time I would surmise that most of the mixed-race Portuguese-Goans went to Portugal. I’d wager that there is more Goan blood in Portugal than Portuguese blood in Goa.

John H Nazareth

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[John de Figueiredo]

António Gomes.

JM de Figueiredo 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 5, 2024, at 12:42 AM, 'Mike Pinto' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

What was the name of the priest ousted by SFX for bein racist

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[Pedro Mascarenhas]

John( ..........In fact, the Island of Chorão, where many of them lived, was known as “Ilha dos Fidalgos” (Island of Nobility........).

On the island of Chorão, the Portuguese colonizers had Goan and African slaves. They were self-proclaimed aristocrats who left Portugal where poverty was rampant. True aristocrats would never leave their land to go to Goa and lose their lives and possessions knowing that the Mughals and Marathas would attack whenever they could.

 

Nuno(............The Portuguese difference was the willingness of mixing with other ethnic groups, from the casual sexual intercourse to marriage and to the ability to "go native"...........)

 

The English did not mix in India because they were from the upper middle and upper class. Most of the Portuguese were from the lower class and illiterate. They raped many women and abandoned them and their mixed race children.

Here is a report that clearly explains what happened in a certain colony, where even many Goans were settled:

https://acervo.publico.pt/mundo/noticia/quantos-milhoes-morreram-na-saga-do-colonialismo-1724884

 

 

 

[Joao Paulo Cota]

I should had rephrased it as 'most Portuguese who went to Goa'.

For every ship, there was only the captain and a few educated/aristocratic people onboard - but the ratio disparity between them and the sailors, was very obvious. Often these sailors stayed back, it was a one way trip for them.

There were lots of mutinies on board and hence Fort Aguada was born. All the mutineers were sent there, as soon as it reached Goan shores but before the ships landed at Old Goa.

The reason there was a Ilha dos Fidalgos, it is a testament of the social divide between what they thought of themselves and what they had portrayed the local populace to be. Hence they had created a small niche area for themselves.

Yes, they did contribute a lot for the betterment of Goa and Goans.

Joao Paulo Cota

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From: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: 05 October 2024 01:46

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[Joao Paulo Cota]

I am not sure a comment seen by Sinthia Salvadori can definitely confirm this Gujrati Malam was the one who has guided VDG to India. 

Why would and Indian guide an invader to his own country?

Unless there is solid proof of that, confirmed by multiple sources, it is just a theory.

About this expulsion of the Jesuit, I take you are talking about Antonio Gomez, who was then the rector of St Paul's college.

His problem was not racist at the beginning. He was educated to a very high standard in Europe and had a tough syllabus to follow, much higher that Francis and Ignatius followed themselves. He has disobeyed Francis Xavier's orders (to implement the normal Jesuit led curriculum for them) - that was principle upon which the college was founded - to educate the local Goans to be Jesuit priests. As a result of this tough syllabus, some local students gave up and others ran away from the college by climbing back compound walls. He then he went further to replace them with Portuguese students who could barely read or write. His frustration was because the normal village boy could grasp the subject matter being imposed by him, I don't think it was racial in nature.

I would think if had stuck to the normal curiculum, the local boys would had done well and none of this would had happened.

(He was actually not expelled but just relieved of his post and assigned elsewhere - but then due to different local protests and petitions, Francis Xavier retracted back and gave him the original post back with new conditions)

---

From: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net>

Sent: 04 October 2024 09:41

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[Nuno Cardoso da Silva]

 

 

 

Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2024 at 3:48 PM
From: "John Nazareth" <jhr_na...@hotmail.com>
To: "goa-rese...@googlegroups.com" <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

I would like to provide a statistician’s view on this topic.

When we talk about the elite Goan families taking pleasure in being the progeny of the Portuguese presence in Goa, I presume we are talking about the cultural progeny, not physical progeny. True mixed race marriages were predominantly Portuguese men marrying Goan women. They would live in the City of Goa (“Old Goa”) which was quite cosmopolitan. (Extremely few Portuguese women came to Goa.) They would have had difficulty living in the Goan villages because of the highly structured society of the gaunkari.

That is why in the villages (where most of the Goans lived once the great City of Goa got depopulated) there is very little evidence of admixture of Goans and Portuguese. My own DNA analysis with “23andme” found that I have only 0.2% Portuguese blood. My family spans Moira (Bardez), Malar (Divar – Tiswadi)), and Benaulim (Salcette).

And in time I would surmise that most of the mixed-race Portuguese-Goans went to Portugal. I’d wager that there is more Goan blood in Portugal than Portuguese blood in Goa.

John H Nazareth

 

 John,

0.2% Portuguese blood? I believe we all have about 2% Neanderthal genes, could you have only 10% of that as Portuguese blood?... [Just kidding!...]

Nuno

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[Patrice Riemens]

LOL.

But highly credible/probable

CiaoCiao, p+7D!

---

From: "John Nazareth" <jhr_na...@hotmail.com>
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, 5 October, 2024 16:48:53
Subject: RE: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

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[Nuno Cardoso da Silva]

Pedro,

 

My experience in Angola was that often White men had intercourse with Black women and made them pregnant. In most cases I know of, the children (mixed race) were taken care of in their father's house, they were sent to school and taken care of as any of the legitimate children. The mothers were left on their own, though. If Portuguese men did that in Africa, I doubt they would have acted differently in Goa. But you are welcome to your prejudices...

 

Nuno

 

 

Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2024 at 3:14 PM
From: "'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net" <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>

To: "goa-rese...@googlegroups.com" <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

 

John( ..........In fact, the Island of Chorão, where many of them lived, was known as “Ilha dos Fidalgos” (Island of Nobility........).

 

 

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[John de Figueiredo]

May I ask you to give me the sources where you obtained this information?

John M. de Figueiredo 

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On Oct 6, 2024, at 2:50 PM, Joao Paulo Cota <joao...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[John de Figueiredo]

May I ask you to send me the sources where where you obtained the information about the Ilha de Chorão?

John M. de Figueiredo 

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On Oct 6, 2024, at 2:50 PM, 'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[John de Figueiredo]

Pedro,

I would be grateful if you would share with us your sources of information about what you write on the Portuguese in Chorão: “the Portuguese colonizers were self-proclaimed aristocrats etc.”

John

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On Oct 7, 2024, at 6:21 AM, 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[William Robert Da Silva]

The use of the word and concept caste began in Goa with Portuguese
soldado. The Goa of the sixteenth century had soldado, when they took
local women, including Muslim women made widows, the soldado became
casado. Casa, home or household, was the manner in which a soldado was
married and made casado. From here comes the word, cazar (or, kazar)
to become a householder, so to marry, cazar. Those who were fidalgo,
fils de alguns, were the castic(s)o, the pure ones, later applied to
endogamous Indian occupational groups. See Duarte Barbosa. The local
people in general became nativos. The mixed with the soldado, their
children, became mestico. So, castico, mestico, and nativos. From
castico came castus, casta, custom; chaste, caste. Today, all-India
category of societal classification. Khuinchea kastacho-re, or -go tum
is Konkani.
W R Da Silva

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[John de Figueiredo]

[albe...@sapo.pt]

Pedro

Thanks for the link, indeed a contribution to the sad colonial history.

The statements made by the woman from Goa and her husband

were contradicted by the other participants who shared their own personal experiences.

https://acervo.publico.pt/mundo/noticia/quantos-milhoes-morreram-na-saga-do-colonialismo-1724884

Alberto

 

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Assunto: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

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[Pedro Mascarenhas]

The story of Chorão was told to me by A. D. Furtado, author of the book "Goa - Yesterday, Today- Tomorrow", (photo ). It was a long conversation in Panaji years ago and as he had been in Mozambique he made reference to African slaves brought in the 18th and 19th centuries and placed in Old Goa, Chorão, Divar etc. Each slave cost only a few shillings. So he told me about Manuel António de Sousa, a Goan adventurer who went to Mozambique and made a fortune selling ivory and slaves. He left his wife in Goa, and in Africa had several African mistress and illegitimate children and was named nobleman of Zambezi by the colonial governor of the region. Sousa was a "prazeiro". The Prazeiros were the Portuguese and Afro-Portuguese landowners who ruled, in a feudal-like manner, vast estates called prazos that were leased to them by the Portuguese , in the Zambezi Valley. As a racially hybrid community, the Prazeiros meant not only a merger of cultures, but an emergence of a new socio-political order.

 

 

 

[Joao Paulo Cota]

For the Vasco da Gama guide to India,

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/gujarati-showed-vasco-da-way/articleshow/6674395.cms

Gujarati showed Vasco 'da' way | Ahmedabad News - Times of India When Portuguese explorer Vasco da Gama discovered Europe-to-India sea route in 1497, he had a Gujarati by his side to show him the way. Historians and timesofindia.indiatimes.com

I won't be surprised is this crazy theory is being peddled by the likes of fundamentalist RSS and BJP - in their quest to promote their own versions of real events by evoking native heroes - as they are keen on erasing all kinds of history that do not match their narative.

Ahmad Ibn Majid was a 'foreign' Muslim, I need say no more...

For the local Goan students leaving St Paul's college, 

https://archive.org/details/st.francisxavier/page/n229/mode/2up

Saint Francis Xavier, apostle of the East. : Margaret Yeo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive New York : Macm., 1932. archive.org

This book has a few inconsistencies, but seems to give the right information as she has cross referenced works like G Schurhammer, P L Cros, O Torsellini amongst others.

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Sent: 07 October 2024 01:03

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[John de Figueiredo]

The medieval Dharmashastras allowed the sale of oneself or one’s dependents, especially during famines. A case could be made that the Hindu caste system reduced some people to things. In the 16th century in Goa and elsewhere it was believed that in some cases, slavery was justified, the so-called “just slavery”. Until 1569 every religious order in Goa had slaves. My question is this: if the Goans, Christians and Hindus, had slaves, what grounds have the Goans to criticize the Portuguese for having slaves? The Portuguese did not introduce slavery in Goa and they were doing what everybody else was doing. Even Pombal could not abolish slavery in Brazil.

What is regrettable is that centuries went by before slavery was viewed as it had been all along, an abomination, and the evil of human trafficking continues to this date in various parts of the world.

John M. de Figueiredo 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 6, 2024, at 2:50 PM, 'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



John( ..........In fact, the Island of Chorão, where many of them lived, was known as “Ilha dos Fidalgos” (Island of Nobility........).

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[Andrew Pereira]

Was Manuel Antonio de Sousa a Goan native or of Portuguese-Goan descent? It is said that there was a primary school in Mapusa named after him along with his statue at the rotunda now housing the bust of Mahatma Gandhi. Would anyone have an idea where in Goa he would have traced his roots to?

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[fredericknoronha]

Andrew, your answer is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Ant%C3%B3nio_de_Sousa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_António_de_Sousa

Some years ago (about a decade), i saw a photo of his in the old Mapusa Municipality building.

This is from Domnic Fernandes' book Mapusa: Yesterday and Today: A Reminiscent Tour (now out of print):

PERSONALITIES ACROSS HISTORY
Manuel António de Souza: Merchant and militaryman in Portuguese Africa. Made a fortune in the ivory trade, helped the Portuguese in some military campaigns there, and was even recognised as a “king” of a region. He was appointed Capitão Mor (Captain General) of Manica and Sofala in 1874. Organised a tiny kingdom and a perfect little state with an army of 30,000 men with its own guns, fortresses and administration. See details in an earlier chapter on Chapter 22.

Also from the book:

MANUEL SOUZA ANTÓNIO De
In 1960, the Portuguese introduced a modern rotunda (circle) Manuel António D’Souza. in place of voddachem zhadd  and installed the statue of the Mapusa-born Goan, Manuel António de Souza, merchant and militaryman in Portuguese Africa. Known as Gouveia, he made a fortune in the ivory trade, helped the Portuguese in some military campaigns there, and was even recognised as a “king” of a region. He was appointed Capitão Mor (Captain General) of Manica and Sofala in 1874. Manuel distinguished himself in military campaigns in Africa. He went to Mozambique and consolidated his little kingdom by driving back the attacks of natives. He played a role in pushing ahead the frontiers for the Portuguese, and organized a little kingdom and a perfect little state with an army of 30,000 men with its own guns, fortresses and administration. He became a celebrity in Colonial Mozambique at the end of the 19th century. Goa’s Portuguese rulers were proud enough to issue a postal
stamp and to erect his statue at the rotunda, but within less than two years, precisely four days prior to Goa’s Liberation, the statue was destroyed by a bomb purportedly by the Portuguese military intelligence from the Mapusa quartel, but the blame was put on the Indian Government in order to create mixed feelings among Goans.
Travelling to the Escola Técnica usually on my Hercules bicycle via Parra, I passed by the statue every day. One morning, I was surprised to see it knocked down, but it didn’t upset me much; a year earlier many crosses across Goa had been desecrated, including the cross in St. John’s Chapel compound in front of my house and a couple more behind my house. 

Post Liberation, the remnants of Manuel António’s statue, including the pedestal, was cleared and dumped in the old market. 

Photo: Discarded pedestal part of Manuel António’s statue.

At the request of Camilo Menezes, the concrete pedestal base was brought and fixed at the triangular corner in front of Farmacia João de Menezes where a ‘No Entry Zone’ sign-board stands planted. It is half buried in the ground and it is still there as can be seen in the photo below.
A statue of Gandhi was installed in its place. From the statue, the road on the left leads to Guirim, Socorro, Porvorim, Salvador do Mundo, Betim and Panjim, and the one on right leads to Parra, Nagoa, Saligão, Pilerne, Verem, Reis Magos, Sinquerim, Fort Aguada, Candolim, Calangute, Baga, Arpora and Anjuna.

[Cliff Pereira]

Thank you for raising this point John. As many will know I have spent over two decades researching Africans in Asia. Regarding pre-1500 I can say the following:

1) Slavery was endemic in the Indian Ocean World.

2) There was domestic/household, local/within one cultural sphere slavery and trans-oceanic slavery.

3) slavery was not limited to any denomination (Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian or Muslim) but the nuances of treatment and manumission varied.

4) Those enslaved could be of any ethnicity, but Africans were the majority in the western Indian Ocean, and there are records of Armenian slaves into the 19th century.

5) Enslaved people were a commodity and labour force and the Iberian (and later Dutch, French and British) role was an extension of a pre-existing system, enhanced by better military and  shipping technology, and the “discovery” of new areas of sourcing and application of the institution of slavery. 

Pardon typos, I am travelling and sending this from my phone.

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Oct 2024, at 10:54 AM, John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 The medieval Dharmashastras allowed the sale of oneself or one’s dependents, especially during famines. A case could be made that the Hindu caste system reduced some people to things. In the 16th century in Goa and elsewhere it was believed that in some cases, slavery was justified, the so-called “just slavery”. Until 1569 every religious order in Goa had slaves. My question is this: if the Goans, Christians and Hindus, had slaves, what grounds have the Goans to criticize the Portuguese for having slaves? The Portuguese did not introduce slavery in Goa and they were doing what everybody else was doing. Even Pombal could not abolish slavery in Brazil.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/40C7DB77-6F78-4AC5-BFD2-31FB8FEC2F84%40sbcglobal.net.

[albe...@sapo.pt]

what grounds have the Goans to criticize the Portuguese for having slaves?

The key issue is that the Portuguese colonizers proclaimed themselves to be CIVILIZED and the others were savages. Do you understand that? If they were civilized, why the hell did they imitate the savages?

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Data: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 23:36:26 -0400

De: John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net>

Assunto: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

[Andrew Pereira]

Thanks Frederick. Got to check out if the pedestal can still be viewed outside the Joao Menezes pharmacy in Mapusa.

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[V M]

Here is what the great Francisco Luis Gomes said about slavery in the
Portuguese parliament in 1861, with an admirable moral clarity that
some Goans seem to have lost over the generations:

"I have already stated in the House, and I repeat it today that I am
an enemy to slavery. I am so on principle, and because of historic
traditions of my country, whose ancient civilization, although it
admitted of lower castes, never permitted slavery; its code is free
from this stain."

He declared himself in favour of "prompt and immediate emancipation"
but "resigned" to the fact it wasn't going to happen.

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[John de Figueiredo]

Where is the evidence that ALL “Portuguese colonizers proclaimed themselves to be civilized”? Some may have been ignorant and prejudiced and may have done it, but not all of them. If the Goans had slaves, then the old saying of Jesus of Nazareth applies: those without a sin should be the first ones to cast the stone.
JM de Figueiredo
Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 11, 2024, at 2:37 PM, V M <vmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here is what the great Francisco Luis Gomes said about slavery in the

> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAN1wPW7J2pNh-ut1BO-v%2B0jHoCysusf8nLOHAbnF7VV9Sk4sJA%40mail.gmail.com.

[John de Figueiredo]

They did not “imitate the savages” in everything, Albert. They abolished the “sati” (“suttee”).
JM de F

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 11, 2024, at 2:37 PM, V M <vmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Here is what the great Francisco Luis Gomes said about slavery in the

> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAN1wPW7J2pNh-ut1BO-v%2B0jHoCysusf8nLOHAbnF7VV9Sk4sJA%40mail.gmail.com.

[John de Figueiredo]

And they did their best to abolish the caste system that condemned an entire segment of the population to perpetual servitude.
Francisco Luis Gomes was misinformed when he stated that his country’s “ancient civilization never permitted slavery” (though this fact may not have been known in his time).

JM de F
Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 11, 2024, at 2:37 PM, V M <vmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Here is what the great Francisco Luis Gomes said about slavery in the

> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAN1wPW7J2pNh-ut1BO-v%2B0jHoCysusf8nLOHAbnF7VV9Sk4sJA%40mail.gmail.com.

[albe...@sapo.pt]

Yes, they abolished sati to replace it with the Inquisition, racism, torturing police PIDE/DGS,

prisons without trial and Goans imprisoned in Cape Verde and Portugal, etc.

Salazar said: we are in the colonies to bring civilization. And what was civilization for him?

Extremely poor Portugal, racism, torturing police PIDE/DGS, prisons without trial and Goans imprisoned in Cape Verde.

Alberto

----- Mensagem de John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net> ---------

Data: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 15:27:21 -0400

De: John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net>

Assunto: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

[Sonia Gomes]

Dr. Figueiredo,

I am surprised or I may be wrong, when did the Portuguese abolish the caste system. I thought it was encouraged by the Portuguese.

Very confused 

Sonia do Rosario Gomes

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[John de Figueiredo]

The issues are far more complex (complicated) than you are presenting them.

Let us agree to disagree.

John

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2024, at 10:57 AM, albe...@sapo.pt wrote:



[Nuno Cardoso da Silva]

Alberto,

We also suffered in Portugal the misdeeds of the Inquisition, the persecutions of PIDE, the political prisons, the petty mindedness of Salazar, and we survived. And we realized that being Portugal and Portuguese was a lot more than that, and we are today happy in our multicultural and multiethnic society, more tolerant and more peaceful than most peoples in the world, including some who are close to you. Pity that you decided to miss everything good we had, and prefer to see only the less positive things in our history. No doubt we are, as a result, a lot happier than you...

 

Best regards

 

Nuno

 

 

Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2024 at 12:08 PM
From: albe...@sapo.pt
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’

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[John de Figueiredo]

My original point is still the same. If the Dharmashastras permitted sale of oneself or one’s dependents, especially in time of famine; if the Goans (Christians and Hindus) had slaves; and if all religious orders in Goa had slaves until 1569, we should not be surprised at the Portuguese (Europeans) and their descendants having slaves. They followed the custom of the land.

“Why did the Portuguese viewed the Goans as savages?” It is the other way around. It is precisely because they did not view the Goans as savages that they:

* Praised the magnificence of the Goan culture, and, in general, of the Indian culture, from day one

* Settled down in Goa, married Goans, and had children from them

* Awarded titles of nobility and other honors and scholarships to Goan Hindus and Christians 

* Recognized and condemned their previous errors, such as the Inquisition and the laws against the native languages

* Appealed to the Goans to study their language (Konkani) and promoted the learning of Konkani and Marathi 

* Respected the system of village communities 

* Built statues in Goa to Goan Christians and Hindus and named streets after them in Goa and in Portugal 

* Introduced the first printing press in India and the first Public Library 

* Appointed a Goan for Governor of Goa and many of them embraced his cause and died for him

* Established the oldest school of Allopathic Medicine in India 

* Established an Institute for the advancement of the Indo-Portuguese culture of Goa

* Named two of their medical institutes in Portugal after Goans

* Recognized a Goan as being the founder of the science of Tropical Medicine in Portugal

* Appointed Goans to Professors at the medical school they established in Goa from day one and at universities in Portugal.

etc. etc.

Here is an example of a biased appraisal. Dr. Panduronga Pissurlencar. An eminent Goan historian, established beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Portuguese Empire would not have survived without the active, willing, and loyal collaboration of Goan Hindus. This did not fall well with one of his readers. So what did he do? He accused Dr. Pissurlencar of serving “his Portuguese masters”, thus implying that Dr. Pissurlencar was a slave of the Portuguese which he most definitely was not. That reader was Dr. Teotônio de Souza (“Goa to Me” p. 71).

Were there mistakes made along the line? Sure.

Should they have done more? Yes. But there was also recognition of the mistakes made, and in many cases, the victimization of the Goans was not any different than it was of their own.

With this I will close my case for a fairer appraisal and a history unbiased by ideology. 

JM de Figueiredo 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2024, at 10:57 AM, albe...@sapo.pt wrote:



Yes, they abolished sati to replace it with the Inquisition, racism, torturing police PIDE/DGS,

[John de Figueiredo]

Hi Sonia,

Good question. The Portuguese did not abolish the caste system directly. They attempted to abolish it indirectly by encouraging conversions to Christianity and introducing the belief that the caste system was incompatible with Christianity and the vision (ideal) of a more equalitarian society. They succeeded only in part especially in areas other than endogamy. Interestingly the caste system among Goan Christians turned out to be more resilient among the Catholic clergy. It appears that eventually the Portuguese resigned to the survival of the caste system among Goan Christians. In many ways, this ideal of an equalitarian society brought opportunities to many Goan Hindus converted to Christianity that were previously unavailable. Caste among Goan Christians became more like social class. I discussed this in some detail in some of my publications.

John 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2024, at 3:42 PM, Sonia Gomes <rgs...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Sonia Gomes]

Thank you very much Dr. Figueiredo. Your explanation does clear my doubts about caste. I had also heard that if a high caste Brahmins/ Chardo converted to Christianity it would follow that the mundkars would convert too, doesn't seem so far fetched as there are entire hamlets of Abranches and Gama in my village of Verna. Thank you
Sonia

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[William Robert Da Silva]

Think of Raitur and Pilar; think of Jose Vaz and Pilar 'saib,' Is the presence of casta RC in Goa, or Portuguese>

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[Joana Filipa Passos]

Good morning .
Here, in Portugal, is good morning. I follow debates
But I seldom interfere. The Portuguese were not worse, nor better, than any other people, in similar circumstances. Here we are, 21st century, and the world watches as Israel carries on a genocide in Gaza, and Putin decided to invade Ucraine and declare it is. Power and politics are immoral. Shame on all of us that centuries go by and we do not learn any better than killing and abusing other peoples.
Joana

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[fredericknoronha]

From maps to caste... and that favourite debate of all-time my-colonisers-were-better-than-your-colonisers. Or, alternatively, the-rest-of-the-world-were-colonials-(except-us).

Anyway, the Portuguese has gone, but caste remains (among the Goan Catholic). Who's forcing us to stay biased and bigoted now, assuming someone did so in the past?

While not placing the blame elsewhere, I read somewhere (can't recall now) that the Portuguese saw a parallel with South Asian castes and their own feudal system of the times. We seem to juxtapose our 21st century of make-believe equality on the 16th, forgetting that in those times hierarchies were seen as the norm. (As if they are not now, though in more subtle ways.)

Let me concede that the Goan Catholic gets berated for caste more than most, even though the actual prevalence within the community might be of lesser intensity. Would you agree? There are no theological justifications for it. Today, class and education (especially money) often counts for more. Politics has empowered larger-sized communities, and the old elite is still beaten for their arrogance of the yesteryear. In social interactions (sometimes) and the marriage market (mostly) it remains quite strong though, and many swear by what others might call "endogamy"

In a word: it's complicated! FN
PS: Very few studies on caste. Adelyn D'Costa is one, done decades ago; Cyril Fernandes' Justice at the Grassroots is a mix between a tribute to a social activist and a general profile of the .Gawada community. Anita Haladi's essay on "development" afflicting the aboriginal communities of Goa in Norman Dantas' OIP book struck one as insightful. Please point to others.... Some of the essays seem more an exercise of self-glorification of one's own caste, rather than anything else.

[Peter de Souza]

There are two errors in the statement by Dr Figueirado. One concerns an impermissible logical leap and the other a crucial ignored fact.

The first, I believe, referring to the Dharmashastras, concerns to the concept of ‘apadharma’. This refers to an extreme situation, rightly specified as famine, when it was permitted to transgress regular norms within which one was located, one’s varnadharma, since survival was at stake. A Rishi was permitted to even eat dog meat in this extreme exceptional situation. But it was only in such an exceptional situation. To extrapolate this permission to a ‘normal’ situation is hence impermissible. Such transgression of norms/rules is also permitted in Islam and Judaism. I’m not sure about Christianity. In Islam the kindred concept is taqiyya. Hence to see the ‘sale of oneself as permitted during famines’ as a permission to sell oneself during normal time, and thereby own slaves is, I hold, an impermissible logical leap.

The second ignores the crucial distinction between ‘owning’ slaves, which was reprehensible, and ‘trading’ in slaves which produced an abominable system of commence. The Portuguese were slave traders. The enormous wealth of Europe was built on the slave trade. The book by Stephanie Smallwood ‘Saltwater Slavery’ recounts the horror of the trade. To ignore the dimension of capital accumulation from the slave trade, and see it only as a behaviour lapse or perhaps an angularity is, I believe, a fault in the argument. Europe and America, and the Christianity that endorsed it, have much to pay. Cambridge, Yale, Princeton and even Lloyd’s of London are convulsed with the issue of reparation for their involvement in the slave trade and working out the appropriate righting response. Yale initially resisted it but then had to even rename one of its colleges, Calhoun college.

Peter.r.

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[John de Figueiredo]

“O Sistema das Castas” by A. B. de Bragança Pereira. This monograph is a bit old, but a classic in the field.

Panduronga Pissurlencar’s essay “O Elemento Hindu da Casta Chardo’” is also informative and interesting.

John M. de Figueiredo 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 15, 2024, at 9:21 AM, fredericknoronha <frederic...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John de Figueiredo]

To Dr. Peter de Souza:

“To ignore the dimension of capital accumulation from the slave trade, and see it only as a behavior lapse, or perhaps an angularity…”

You are attributing to me something I did not say.

Read my posts again. I did not say anything about slave trade, let alone about seeing it as a “behavior lapse, or perhaps an angularity.” That is a different topic of conversation. I spoke only about having had slaves and compared Goans to non-Goans to having had slaves. People who had slaves contributed to the slave traffic but not everyone who had slaves engaged into slave traffic.

More about this later.

John M. de Figueiredo 

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On Oct 15, 2024, at 11:36 AM, Peter de Souza <peterde...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO]

     Thank you, Cliff, for your post. The following was written before I read your post.

     This is a continuation of my previous posts on the topic of having slaves in the city of Goa, later called “Velha Goa” or “Old Goa. My previous posts and what follows are a brief comment, not intended to be a detailed review of this topic. Slavery in Portuguese India has been extensively studied by M. N. Pearson, Cliff Pereira, Jeannette Pinto, Celsa Pinto, P. P. Shirodkar, Patricia Souza de Faria, and others. For a more detailed discussion, the reader is referred to their writings. Also, my previous posts were about having had slaves, not about the slave trade. I am comparing Goans and non-Goans about having had slaves.  People who had slaves contributed to the slave traffic and the slave trade by acquiring them, but not everyone who had slaves engaged into slave traffic and slave trade.

     Here is what I said (now for the third time) about the Portuguese (Europeans) having had slaves in the city of Goa: If both Goan Christians and Goan Hindus, and all Catholic religious orders in the city of Goa had slaves, then the Portuguese were doing in the city of Goa what everybody else was doing, i.e., following the custom of the land (buying and retaining slaves). I asked the following question: If the Goans, Christians and Hindus, had slaves, what grounds have the Goans to criticize the Portuguese for having had slaves?

     Slavery existed in ancient and medieval India. Rules about slavery were complex, at times contradictory, with certain rules being more consistent than other rules (such as, for example, that Brahmans could not be enslaved, even by other Brahmans). Those rules have been described in the book “History of Dharmaśastra”, a multivolume masterpiece written by Professor Pandurang Vaman Kane, a distinguished Indian historian and judge.¹ Vasistha Dharmasutra, for example, stated that the parents have the power to make a gift or sale of the son or abandon him.

     Slave trade existed in Goa and Western India before the arrival of the Portuguese. Indian, Arab, and Muslim merchants were actively involved in this trade in which millions were kidnapped or bought in East Africa, India, and other ports and cities around the Indian Ocean, huddled in ships, and sold like chattel all over the world. The Muslims used slaves as soldiers. Seeing this as an opportunity to enrich themselves, some (but not all) Portuguese merchants inserted themselves into this trade. Many profited handsomely from this trade. The Dutch, English, and Dansh merchants followed the footsteps of the Portuguese merchants in this multidirectional and multinational slave trade.

     Others, including Europeans and North Americans of European ancestry, were adamantly opposed to this human trafficking. Many protested and fought tirelessly to end slavery. Many had their lives ruined or lost for opposing slavery. By contrast, no evidence has surfaced thus far of Goans complaining or protesting against slavery or fighting for its abolition. Available evidence suggests that in the 16^th and 17^th centuries, when slave trade was booming in the city of Goa, Goans who bought and sold slaves viewed their behavior as legitimate and morally justified. Goans fought for other things, such as laws or behaviors they viewed as abusive, at times successfully, but not against slavery. Unless future research proves otherwise, this silence strongly suggests that slavery in the city of Goa those days had been “normalized.” Buying slaves was the cultural norm, the custom of the land.

     As Patricia Souza de Faria noted, the dichotomy “being free” and “being a slave” is too simplistic to describe the multiple forms of mutual dependency and slavery in India and other South Asian societies. ² She cites the following definition of slavery given by Richard Eaton: ““the condition of uprooted outsiders, impoverished insiders – or the descendants of either – serving persons or institutions on which they are wholly dependent.” ³  According to this definition, the Indian caste system would be an example of “immobile slavery.” It is likely that the “normalization” of slavery that took place in Goa was facilitated by the Goan society having been primed by its local system of mutual dependency, the caste system, a system Christianization could not completely erase, and also by the slave trade that had been taking place in Goa for decades or centuries before the arrival of the Portuguese.

     Earlier I had stated that the medieval Dharmasastras allowed the sale of oneself ore one’s dependents, especially during famines. In the abstract, the connection between these rules of the Dharmaśastras and slavery may appear to be remote and irrelevant. Not so if we place the buying of slaves in the city of Goa in the context of space and time. The city of Goa, where slaves were auctioned, sold, and bought in the market, was bounced by an onslaught of epidemics of infectious diseases, seasonal flooding of the monsoons, poor sanitary conditions, malnutrition, poverty, corruption, hunger, crime, fear of the Inquisition, and the constant threat of foreign invasions. In short, the city was in a constant state of emergency.  “Normal time” in that city meant “being in crisis”, and eventually the city was abandoned.

     Given this scenario, and the immense human capacity for rationalization, the presence of such rules in the Dharmaśastra, though contradictory, at times, and interpreted in different ways, could give Goan Hindus, consciously or unconsciously, a pass to justify the ownership of slaves, just as the so-called doctrine of “just slavery”, accepted and promoted at that time by the Vatican and the Catholic religious orders, could give Goan Christians a rationale to do the same. “Just slavery” meant that the slave could be justly retained if born of a slave woman, or freely self-sold, or captured in a just war, or sold by a parent because of severe poverty, or sentenced to be sold as a slave by a court of law.

     To conclude, those who say that all Goans who lived in the 16^th and 17^th centuries in the city of Goa had a higher moral stand on slavery than non-Goans who lived in the same city at the same time should pause and look at the historical record before making such claims. By owning slaves, non-Goans (such as the Portuguese) who lived in the city of Goa followed a well-established custom of the land. Knowingly or unknowingly, Goans and non-Goans who bought and retained slaves participated in the slave trade, and perpetuated and expanded that trade.

     Today we understand that having slaves and trading on slaves was morally wrong even in those societies in which it was the cultural norm, but it should not be considered more wrong and shameful for a non-Goan than it was for a Goan. From an ethical and historical perspective, and outside the legal arena, it is immaterial if a person has one slave, many slaves, or traffics on slaves. Slavery is morally wrong, period, in all cultures, at all times, and under any circumstances. In this sense, the moral absolutists are correct. The recognition of this truth is the final triumph of reason over rationalization.

¹ Kane PV. History of Dharmasastra, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona 1941 Vol II, Part I, pp. 180-167

² Souza de Faria P. Enslaved Children in Portuguese India, 1550-1760. Ler História. 84:159-180, 2024

³ Eaton, R. “Introduction”, in Chaterjee I, Eaton R (eds), Slavery and South Asian History. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2006 pp. 1-16

 

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