A purported miracle by St. Francis Xavier

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Helga Do Rosario Gomes

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Jan 27, 2024, 3:35:57 PM1/27/24
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Does anyone know anything about this incident?
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Joao Paulo Cota

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Jan 28, 2024, 4:47:02 AM1/28/24
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I am just trying to picture what these '100 soldiers' were trying to lift - the casket or the massive tall marble pillar where the coffin rests.
From the engineering and technical point of view, how would one position such a huge number of soldiers to lift a casket, that does not weigh more than 200Kg, if the pillar is a bit high and only a few handful of soldiers would be able to go around the casket, enabling their muscle power to actually touch the casket. Was the casket pinned to the base and they were not aware of it? Trying to visualize the situation, if 12 soldiers were allowed to surround the coffin, what exactly were the other 88 soldiers doing with their muscle power?
It does not add up.
The governor was never in favour of fighting this war, so he did not have to 'change his mind' over anything.
Vassalo e Silva was not a puppet of Salazar. He was a very realistic and never accepted the dictator's orders that all Portuguese India soldiers should end up 'victorious or dead'. Salazar was just an economist, a man of letters, whereas the governor was a man with extensive military background and experience. He knew perfectly well that Goan military forces with zero air force and one single battle ship had absolutely no chance to stand up against the much powerful Indian military.
What he did (in disobeying Salazar's orders) was a very honourable thing to do and that spared possible loss of life amongst Goans and also possible destruction of buildings, that could even include churches.
He should had been honoured by Goa, but with the current fundamentalist party in power, that is a foregone conclusion.
But getting to the topic, the soldier's positions around the coffin and Vassalo da Silva's original mindset that he wanted to surrender from the start of hostilities, does not corroborate with this story.
Regards,
Joao Paulo Cota


From: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Helga Do Rosario Gomes <helgado...@gmail.com>
Sent: 27 January 2024 16:42
To: Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [GRN] A purported miracle by St. Francis Xavier
 
Does anyone know anything about this incident?

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Frederick Noronha

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Jan 28, 2024, 4:47:02 AM1/28/24
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One person's claims.
This is a newspaper reader's letter-to-the-editor.
Obviously doing the rounds since before 2011.
It seems to have got a new lease of life in cyberspace recently.
FN

On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 at 02:05, Helga Do Rosario Gomes <helgado...@gmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone know anything about this incident?

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Joao Paulo Cota

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Jan 28, 2024, 6:59:26 AM1/28/24
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I have checked the Portuguese press and also books on the 1961 events, there is no mention of anything similar.
If such an event of such importance or impact would had actually taken place, then who can explain the silence of the other 99 soldiers plus others in the basilica? Was this guy the only one who felt something special? Surely something very unusual would had got press coverage at the time, not some 50 years later...
There is a Goan story told over the years that at the time where the body was supposed to have been moved from the Se Catedral building to the Basilica, one of the two holy water fonts at the Se Catedral cracked and broke into two pieces. So apparently, the body was returned to the original place at the Se Catedral. However, I had never come across any historical evidence to backup such claim and also whilst checking the original water fonts, there seems to be no evidence of it being either cracked, repaired or replaced - both match in colour and shape....
After all, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, there is no boundaries for one's imagination.
Regards,
JP
From: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Frederick Noronha <frederic...@gmail.com>
Sent: 28 January 2024 09:46
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GRN] A purported miracle by St. Francis Xavier
 

Bernardo de Sousa

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Jan 28, 2024, 8:45:33 AM1/28/24
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João Paulo Cota has a point but it’s not only boundless imagination. Ignorance and superstition also play an important role.

https://www.calebcolley.com/ignorance-belief-miracles/


> On 28 Jan 2024, at 12:42, Joao Paulo Cota <joao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have checked the Portuguese press and also books on the 1961 events, there is no mention of anything similar.
> If such an event of such importance or impact would had actually taken place, then who can explain the silence of the other 99 soldiers plus others in the basilica? Was this guy the only one who felt something special? Surely something very unusual would had got press coverage at the time, not some 50 years later...
> There is a Goan story told over the years that at the time where the body was supposed to have been moved from the Se Catedral building to the Basilica, one of the two holy water fonts at the Se Catedral cracked and broke into two pieces. So apparently, the body was returned to the original place at the Se Catedral. However, I had never come across any historical evidence to backup such claim and also whilst checking the original water fonts, there seems to be no evidence of it being either cracked, repaired or replaced - both match in colour and shape....
> After all, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, there is no boundaries for one's imagination.
> Regards,
> JPFrom: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Frederick Noronha <frederic...@gmail.com>
> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/GV2P195MB2161351C91E2ABC7E8E3FBC9827F2%40GV2P195MB2161.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.


John Nazareth

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Jan 28, 2024, 11:43:17 AM1/28/24
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I Understand peoples' hysteria over the body of St Francis Xavier. Many people still call it "the incorruptible body" when in fact it is just skin over bones.
But miracles is another issue. Let me say at the onset that I have been studying the Bible, theology, on my own for 35 years. My favourite theologian is Fr. Hans Kung. I have strong faith and do not depend on miracles to support it. But I will also not deny miracles that I have seen with my own eyes. I attach a piece that I wrote in 1992 when my wife and I went with a prayer group to see the late Fr. Diorio. I'll let you read it. (All the same, I accept that not all claims of "miracles" are true.)
John Nazareth
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/DE9F6BE2-513F-49B5-B9F9-3D47F9AEF8D5%40gmx.ch.
DIORIO.pdf

Helga Do Rosario Gomes

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Jan 28, 2024, 12:41:45 PM1/28/24
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And in addition to keeping 99 men silent (an impossible task especially after a few drinks) how do 99 men lift one casket?
And even more incredulous was a Goan woman from Florida who said that “her family witnessed this event”.




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> On Jan 28, 2024, at 08:45, 'Bernardo de Sousa' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> 
> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/DE9F6BE2-513F-49B5-B9F9-3D47F9AEF8D5%40gmx.ch.

Tony Gomes

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Jan 28, 2024, 12:41:49 PM1/28/24
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This is the first time I hear about the '100 soldiers' trying to lift - the casket /or the massive tall marble pillar where the coffin of St. Francis Xavier rests. It is true that there was a pilgrimage to the Tomb of St. Francis Xavier that started in Panjim, that was attended by the Governor and several Goan and Portuguese dignitaries. This event is described and symbolized in my novel, The Sting of Peppercorns. Clearly the Governor decided to rescind the order of Salazar but whether this was related to a miracle of Francis Xavier or the benevolence and good heartedness  of Vassalo e Silva is obviously a matter of speculation. However, I tend to favor the latter explanation.

Anthony Gomes, 
Author of The Sting of Peppercorns 

Ivan D.

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Jan 28, 2024, 1:16:14 PM1/28/24
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John Nazareth, 
Dr. Hans Kung came to McGill U Faculty of Education in Montreal 3-4 times. He loved Montreal.

I studied in some detail issues re. ‘the infallibility of the Pope’ on doctrinal matters, & whether & how in practice this applied to the College of Cardinals, etc.. 

He was reprimanded by the Church (Vatican) & he was denied his ‘licence’ to teach Catholic Theology at a prestigious German university. 

All kinds of issues emerged re. independence of a university, etc., & the Vatican's authority in the matter, & in the teaching of Catholic Theology.

At about the same time, the Catholic Bishop’s of India (Mumbai) asserted that ‘culture’ & ‘faith issues’ were separate, & it was planning to move closer to’Indian culture’ with a Hindu-related belief-system  & world-view.

Cardinal Ivan Dias was senior Cardinal & advisor to the Pope at the time, & Bishop of Mumbai as well. 
Pre-Partition, that was a huge territory, including Karachi, & that connection remained. 

I met Cardinal Ivan Dias 3-4 times, inc when he visited Montreal (he had relatives in Toronto), & I met him in Rome. 

A scholar in Theology, with a real doctorate (not ‘Honorary’) in Theology. 
His successor in Mumbai, Cardinal Pimenta, was not a Latin scholar, but worked himself up the Church hierarchy. Very down-to-earth. Both had their offices close to the Mahim Catholic Church, on the other side, next to the Diocese offices. 

Dr. Hans Kung wrote a lengthy defence of his position. I ordered 2 copies from Rome & read it, gave one copy to the McGill U Library Reference section. 
Truly a scholar! 🙏🏽✝️

He was excommunicated, & his university changed his status to Prof of World Religions, & Comparative Religions, as the Vatican vetoed his right to teach his regular Catholic Theology courses. 

The Bishops of Mumbai also put out a lengthy statement, at about the same time, & they agreed with the Vatican position, limiting drastically their division of faith & culture. Pope John 23rd passed away, & Pope John Paul 11 then steered the Church to very ‘conservative’  interpretations of Theology & belief. 

Dr. Hans Kung was an unusual theologian. 
He was in great physical shape, exercised in the gym, etc., & understood deeply the distinctions & history. 

Re. SFX, I passed by the coffin 3 times since age 10, each time the claim was it was the last time, & now it seems every 10 years. When I was 10, the queue was miles, & we stood outside for 6-7 hours, my mum, etc.. 
I forget where & when I went to make ‘susu’ 😩😁! bladder relief ! Saiba Bugos ! 🙏🏽 Kitay Salunga Tuka ? 

- Ivan D. 
Ivan D. Pereira 
Dum Spiro Spera - when I breathe, I hope 
(when I pee, I am relieved of much anxiety. 

John Nazareth

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Jan 28, 2024, 2:10:43 PM1/28/24
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Hi Ivan

Hans Kung was never excommunicated. He lived his life to the end as a priest.

He was only not allowed to teach as a Catholic theologian in the U of Tubingen but remained a prof at the university as a prof of Ecumenical Theology.

Check this link.

Hans Küng - Wikipedia

I must have 20 of his books and do not find anything objectional in his writing.

He once complained to the Vatican “Why are you giving me such a hard time – several other theologians have said exactly the same thing as I have?” They replied: “Yes, but you make it seem so believable”!!

I’ve his book “On Being a Christian which I’ve read over and over to help me in my life – I’ve only read the Bible more often.

(By the way, my second favourite theologian is Pope Benedict XVI.)

But the point I was making in mentioning him is that I’m not a miracle groupie. I don’t need to see miracles, but I will not deny them when I see them.

Regards

John

John de Figueiredo

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Jan 28, 2024, 8:20:17 PM1/28/24
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The name of the pilot was Solano de Almeida, not Solome de Almeida. He married, I believe, Antonieta, adopted daughter of Fernanda Vidigal, a nurse at Hospital Escolar, the teaching hospital of Escola Medica.
John M. de Figueiredo 
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 28, 2024, at 12:41 PM, Tony Gomes <tong...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the first time I hear about the '100 soldiers' trying to lift - the casket /or the massive tall marble pillar where the coffin of St. Francis Xavier rests. It is true that there was a pilgrimage to the Tomb of St. Francis Xavier that started in Panjim, that was attended by the Governor and several Goan and Portuguese dignitaries. This event is described and symbolized in my novel, The Sting of Peppercorns. Clearly the Governor decided to rescind the order of Salazar but whether this was related to a miracle of Francis Xavier or the benevolence and good heartedness  of Vassalo e Silva is obviously a matter of speculation. However, I tend to favor the latter explanation.

Joao Paulo Cota

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Jan 28, 2024, 8:21:26 PM1/28/24
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Dr Helga,
I Had been in touch with ex-Portuguese soldiers that had served in Goa for some work I am doing on the subject, philatelic and postal military history related.
I have interviewed some and nobody has ever mentioned such an event. However,  they had admitted they were all very depressed and sad about the way the Portuguese government had treated them all these years, as a consequence of Vassalo e Silva's decision to surrender.  The feeling of a soldier to be treated as a coward, is the worst possible feeling they can ever have in their mind at an advanced age - it makes them feel useless, powerless and depressed.
They were never at fault and many of them mingled with the population as friends and were very religious.
Many of these soldiers are not amongst us anymore but some are still around, will ask them directly, some are over 90+ but still active.
About this woman from Florida, it would be good if somebody could ask her about the technical details on how these '100 men' were actually positioned within the Basilica, what have they actually witnessed.
I think it is all BS, but the best way to deal with such drama queens is to ask them for proof and details, that I doubt they will ever be able to provide.
I suppose if CCTV would had existed then, such stories would never had appeared on the news.
Kind regards,
Joao Paulo Cota

NB: I doubt any of these guys shown on the photos above were part of this group of '100 men' trying to lift the casket, as the photos were taken in 1958-1959 and these soldiers attended regular masses at the Basilica. The 1952 exposition photo shows the size of the casket if it would had been lifted from the top of the marble pillar. I reckon about 12 soldiers would had surrounded the entire casket and definitely been able to lift it easily, these were quite muscular guys. Not sure then if the other 88 were there praying...

From: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Helga Do Rosario Gomes <helgado...@gmail.com>
Sent: 28 January 2024 14:17

To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GRN] A purported miracle by St. Francis Xavier
And in addition to keeping 99 men silent (an impossible task especially after a few drinks) how do 99 men lift one casket?
And even more incredulous was a Goan woman from Florida who said that “her family witnessed this event”.




Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 28, 2024, at 08:45, 'Bernardo de Sousa' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> 
> João Paulo Cota has a point but it’s not only boundless imagination. Ignorance and superstition also play an important role.
>

>
>
>> On 28 Jan 2024, at 12:42, Joao Paulo Cota <joao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have checked the Portuguese press and also books on the 1961 events, there is no mention of anything similar.
>> If such an event of such importance or impact would had actually taken place, then who can explain the silence of the other 99 soldiers plus others in the basilica? Was this guy the only one who felt something special? Surely something very unusual would had got press coverage at the time, not some 50 years later...
>> There is a Goan story told over the years that at the time where the body was supposed to have been moved from the Se Catedral building to the Basilica, one of the two holy water fonts at the Se Catedral cracked and broke into two pieces. So apparently, the body was returned to the original place at the Se Catedral. However, I had never come across any historical evidence to backup such claim and also whilst checking the original water fonts, there seems to be no evidence of it being either cracked, repaired or replaced - both match in colour and shape....
>> After all, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, there is no boundaries for one's imagination.
>> Regards,
>> JPFrom: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Frederick Noronha <frederic...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: 28 January 2024 09:46
>> To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [GRN] A purported miracle by St. Francis Xavier
>> One person's claims.
>> This is a newspaper reader's letter-to-the-editor.
>> Obviously doing the rounds since before 2011.
>> It seems to have got a new lease of life in cyberspace recently.
>> FN
>>
>> On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 at 02:05, Helga Do Rosario Gomes <helgado...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Does anyone know anything about this incident?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group.
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>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group.
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1959 Cerimónia oficial na Basilica de Bom Jesus, com marinha, Velha Goa.jpg
1958 Militares junto á estátua do Cristo-Rei, Velha Goa.jpg
1952 Esposicao de SFX, Velha Goa.jpg
1950's Portuguese military in procession.jpg

Ivan D.

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Jan 28, 2024, 8:22:17 PM1/28/24
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Re. the above link, John, u r very right. 
Dr. Hans Küng was never ‘excommunicated, but the issue of its possibility came up in those years (around 1975). 
However, if u read some of the documentation from the Mumbai Church, they felt very humiliated by the treatment they got from the Vatican, compared to the less harsh treatment of Dr. Kung. 

In my view, Dr. Hans Kung was an outstanding scholar, & he painstakingly did his research. 

A towering figure in the Church, & he understood his place in Church history. 

The Germans made great contributions to the Catholic Church, & some scholars refer to ‘German-language concepts’ in their times to truly understand Catholic Church history. 

Thanks very much for engaging me in this discussion. 
For some years now, I have not been actively researching new theological developments. 
Montreal has been one of the cities active in Church history, French Canadian Catholic institutions, but more from a French-language perspective historically than German. WW1 & WW11 have had their impact & uneasiness continues even in academic circles. 
THANKS !
- Ivan D. 

Ivan D.

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Jan 28, 2024, 8:22:42 PM1/28/24
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John, the quote on the little paper below is:

“Musically speaking, if u don’t see sharp, u r going to be flat” !  🎼👁️     👣☃️    🎻🎺

I am at the coffee shop getting some work done & enjoying my coffee & blueberry bagel. 
Hopefully, I am not being trivial, while in this milieu.
God Bless 🙏🏽

Inline image

John Nazareth

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Jan 28, 2024, 8:45:54 PM1/28/24
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Wonderful – from the king of rhyme.

Helga Do Rosario Gomes

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Jan 29, 2024, 10:59:48 AM1/29/24
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I agree Paulo and offers, it’s quite a ridiculous story but what surprised me even more is that no one in this group even know of this “miracle” as often times these fictitious miracles become lore. 


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On Jan 28, 2024, at 20:45, John Nazareth <jhr_na...@hotmail.com> wrote:



Wonderful – from the king of rhyme.

John

 

 

From: 'Ivan D.' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2024 2:50 PM
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GRN] A purported miracle by St. Francis Xavier

 

John, the quote on the little paper below is:

 

“Musically speaking, if u don’t see sharp, u r going to be flat” !  🎼👁️     👣☃️    🎻🎺

 

I am at the coffee shop getting some work done & enjoying my coffee & blueberry bagel. 

Hopefully, I am not being trivial, while in this milieu.

God Bless 🙏🏽

 

<image001.jpg>

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