caxineiros

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Carvalho

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Oct 30, 2023, 9:05:16 AM10/30/23
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Dear members,

in a 1889 document, there is a notation of 33 Goan caxineiros in Zanzibar. Could this word be interpreted as anything other than cashiers. It's just that for a small community it seems an unusual number. I don't want to prompt with what I think it may mean.

Many thanks,
selma

sandra lobo

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Oct 30, 2023, 9:58:32 AM10/30/23
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Hi Selma

Are you sure it is caxineiro and not caixeiros? In Portuguese it refers to the people of a particular land, Caxinas, in North Portugal, who was by tradition a fisherman community. It is not a dictionary word and it was not by that time, as far as I know.

Best wishes 

Sandra




Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


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De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 30 de outubro de 2023 13:00
Para: Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: [GRN] caxineiros
 
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Joana Filipa Passos

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Oct 30, 2023, 10:02:05 PM10/30/23
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Hi everyone,

The word is still in use. Caxineiros belong to Caxinas, a neighbourhood of fishermen between Póvoa de Varzim and Vila de Conde. 
It is a close knit community.
Joana

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Susana Sardo

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Oct 30, 2023, 10:02:18 PM10/30/23
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This is exactly as Sandra points out. But it is also true that in the north of Portugal Caxineiros is also used as a broaden word for fisherman…. Not only for those originally from Caxinas (the sea coast of Vila do Conde). 
best
susana

No dia 30/10/2023, às 13:58, sandra lobo <sandr...@netcabo.pt> escreveu:


Hi Selma

Are you sure it is caxineiro and not caixeiros? In Portuguese it refers to the people of a particular land, Caxinas, in North Portugal, who was by tradition a fisherman community. It is not a dictionary word and it was not by that time, as far as I know.

Best wishes 

Sandra





Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


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tmn. ++351 930690459



De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 30 de outubro de 2023 13:00
Para: Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: [GRN] caxineiros
 
Dear members,

in a 1889 document, there is a notation of 33 Goan caxineiros in Zanzibar. Could this word be interpreted as anything other than cashiers. It's just that for a small community it seems an unusual number. I don't want to prompt with what I think it may mean.

Many thanks,
selma

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Carvalho

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Oct 30, 2023, 10:02:32 PM10/30/23
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Sorry, my error, Sandra, it is caixeiros, which was translated by my translator as cashiers, which I thought was strange. I've just looked it up again, and the translation is 'clerk' which would be the more appropriate translation.

Warm wishes,
selma

sandra lobo

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Oct 31, 2023, 2:07:58 AM10/31/23
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Yes, Susana, I was wondering if by similitude it was being applied to a fisherman community.




Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


De: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> em nome de Susana Sardo <ssa...@ua.pt>
Enviado: 30 de outubro de 2023 14:02
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Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] caxineiros
 

sandra lobo

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Oct 31, 2023, 2:08:53 AM10/31/23
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Mistery explained



Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


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De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 30 de outubro de 2023 14:59

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Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] caxineiros

Joao Paulo Cota

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Oct 31, 2023, 6:03:19 PM10/31/23
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Catholic Goans in ex-British colonies in Africa were well known for two specific professions: office clerks and tailors.
I did come across these plus other specific Goan professions on letters and postcards in postal history examples of Portuguese India, besides other professions like railway clerks, post office master, tailors, etc. 
I had chats with elderly folks who had migrated from East Africa to the UK and was told by one such clerk, that the British establishment valued Goan clerks with high regards over anybody else. Apparently their accounting skills were second to none. Zanzibar was mentioned on these chats.
Since the olden styled cash machines were huge box types, and table document storage units were also box types, hence the word 'caixeiros' probably derived from 'caixa'.
This has nothing to do with Portugal, but it is pure Goan migration to East Africa at the time.
Good luck on your work.
Joao Paulo Cota

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Sent: 30 October 2023 14:59
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Subject: Re: Responder: [GRN] caxineiros
 

sandra lobo

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Oct 31, 2023, 8:10:27 PM10/31/23
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In Portugal those who handle cash machines are named "caixa"...






Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


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De: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> em nome de Joao Paulo Cota <joao...@hotmail.com>
Enviado: 31 de outubro de 2023 07:19

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Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] caxineiros

Marianne de Nazareth

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Nov 1, 2023, 2:51:27 AM11/1/23
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Hi,

My grandfather left Goa ( Pilerne, Bardez) for Africa --specifically Zanzibar where my Dad was born. Hipolyto Joaon Furtado (sp?) was an accounts clerk there for his entire working life.
His marriage was arranged with my grandmum from Mombasa and they retired in Bangalore, India where we, his descendants still live.

Marianne Furtado de Nazareth




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Nadia Ochoa Rodrigues

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Nov 1, 2023, 2:51:41 AM11/1/23
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Dear members,

Caixeiro or caixeiro-viajante was an expression to designate all kinds of salesmen. 
Normally they carried a box with their products in it (caixa) - from which the name is derived

all the best,
Nadia

Carvalho

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Nov 1, 2023, 2:56:18 AM11/1/23
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It did occur to be that the etymology of the word caixeiros was caixa, and that the word had something to do with cases. I just needed to confirm that the word also means clerk and not just cashiers, because in the Goan East African context it does not make sense as cashier, only clerk.

The reason I started writing this book and synthesising 15 years of research on the subject was precisely because I want to incinerate this stereotype of Goans in East Africa as clerks and tailors :-) 

Judging by the success (or lack thereof) of my translators, looks like I am more likely to prove they were all cashiers.

Warm wishes,
Selma

sandra lobo

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Nov 1, 2023, 3:45:46 AM11/1/23
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In any case to be a cashier in a company was within the image we associate to a clerk and a post of trust






Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


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De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 31 de outubro de 2023 22:19

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Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] caxineiros

carolina costa

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Nov 1, 2023, 5:23:40 AM11/1/23
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“Caixeiro”in  Portugal is someone who travels inland to different towns and villages to sell goods mostly books or medicines. It is also known as “ caixeiro viajante”.
If someone works in a shop dealing with money, is called “caixa”, o caixa or a caixa, depending if male or female.
If someone works in an account office as an accountant, is called contabilista. If the person is responsible for signing the account documents, is Técnico de Contas, chartered accountant.
Regards, 
Carolina 

Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Nov 2023, at 07:51, Marianne de Nazareth <mde.na...@gmail.com> wrote:





Sandra Ataíde Lobo   

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Joao Paulo Cota

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Nov 1, 2023, 1:27:34 PM11/1/23
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I always felt that historical translation from Portuguese to English is very different from modern language translation. Words differ and context also makes a difference.
Caixeiro is not cashier for definite, despite the fact that one partly handled cash in some instances.
Back in the day, one has to take into the equation the fact that there were mobile salespeople who carried their 'belongings' in a carry box/case (medicinal sales reps, stamp sellers, religious artefacts, etc.) that looked more like a briefcase in shape and there were others (accountants, clerks, etc) who had a flat wooden box on the table where they kept their papers and cash as well.
Ever since I had started digging deep into Portuguese India postal history over 25 years ago, I had met older folk to ask more about life at those places in East Africa (I myself was born to Goan parents in West Africa - Angola) to know more about daily life there - trying to tie up postcard text and facts. It was a common mention by the people I had interviewed (many of them clerks of various levels of seniority), that due to racism, Goans were not allowed to climb up the ladder in British Government establishments in East Africa. PA was the maximum a woman would reach and senior clerk was the highest one would reach as a male.
Interestingly, it was not the same in all Portuguese ex-colonies, where some people in Goa did climb up in higher positions, but I have never seen a black person in a senior position in any Portuguese ex-colony. Having lived both in Angola and Goa, I think it was not due to skin colour but due to lack of education.
It is hard to change the past, when it is already engraved in books and postal history. 
Goan tailors, even those remaining today in places like Nairobi, Kenya were highly valued and cherished by the local population purely for their skill.
I for one, would not try to change history but instead not look it as a stereotype but take it as a compliment.
Kind regards,
Joao Paulo Cota
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Sent: 31 October 2023 22:19

Carvalho

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Nov 1, 2023, 1:27:53 PM11/1/23
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Thank you Carolina, and also for the documents you translated. I am grateful to those who volunteered. This particular document is tripping up even the most seasoned translators, as it seems to be high-brow Portuguese with shades of Brazil in it.

This is the first time I'm working with Portuguese documents. It is very difficult working with archival documents in which the language is not my primary language. But luckily I know enough of the language and the historical context to detect something that is even slightly off. And I have a good set of academic friends to offer a second and third opinion.

Warm wishes,
selma

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