trabalhadores

89 views
Skip to first unread message

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 3:09:42 AM6/23/23
to Goa-Research-Net
Dear all,

Need some help in interpreting 'trabalhadores' on baptism certificates. While 
proprietários and lavrador de palmeiras is easy to interpret, how may I interpret trabalhadores, especially if they were well off enough to send their son to Edinburgh for higher education in the 1800s.

many thanks,
selma

sandra lobo

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 3:26:14 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
workers




Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


tmn. ++351 930690459


De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 08:09
Para: Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: [GRN] trabalhadores
 
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to goa-research-n...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/73690634.2214403.1687504175631%40mail.yahoo.com.

Susana Sardo

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 3:43:01 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Dear Selma
Trabalhadores refers to individuals who are employed by someone, typically a company, and receive compensation for their work. This term is commonly used in Portuguese baptismal certificates to indicate the occupation of the workers or laborers within a factory, for instance. 
Hope this helps
susana

No dia 23/06/2023, às 08:26, sandra lobo <sandr...@netcabo.pt> escreveu:

workers




Sandra Ataíde Lobo  

<Outlook-45asdd4h.png><Outlook-5gzm3hbz.png>

<Outlook-bfshuoqr.png>


https://giepcip.wordpress.com/

tmn. ++351 930690459


Carvalho

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 3:47:38 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Aaaah, yes, thank you very much Susana. Yes, in this context definitely, that would make sense.

Warm wishes,
Selma

PEDRO MASCARENHAS

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 6:13:19 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

Dear Selma

On some baptism certificates you will find the word «jornaleiro» which means «daily wage worker».

For example,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro (son of João Rodrigues, daily wage worker). 

There are people who mistake it for journalist.

 


Em alguns certificados de batismo encontrará a palavra «jornaleiro» que significa «trabalhador pago ao dia».   

Por exemplo,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro.  Há pessoas que a confundem com jornalistas.

Cumprimentos

Pedro Mascarenhas 


To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1553411704.2143252.1687506454226%40mail.yahoo.com.


--
Pedro Mascarenhas

Sonia Gomes

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 7:26:15 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Could be labourers too.

Best regards

Sonia

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1553411704.2143252.1687506454226%40mail.yahoo.com.

Sonia Gomes

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 7:26:24 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Sorry I think workers suits it best, considering as you say they had means to send their sons abroad. Workers as in Factories.

All the best

Sonia

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 8:09:12 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Dear Pedro,

You are absolutely right. Indeed, there is this occupation jornaleiro which appears particularly for women and it seemed odd because when translated it translates to journalist, and it seemed odd that there would be so many journalists in remote villages in Goa :-) Thank you for clearing this up.

I wonder if anyone would care to elaborate the exact difference between trabalhadores and empregado. I'm assuming trabalhadores would be working class employee and empregado a white collar office worker.

Take care,
selma

Susana Sardo

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 8:17:33 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Hi Selma
They are essentially the same; it depends on the specific historical period you are referring to. During a particular time frame, the term 'trabalhadores' was commonly used. I believe this change occurred sometime in the 20th century, possibly after the 1930sor 40’s  when the word 'trabalhador' was replaced by 'empregados'. However, it would be beneficial to consult a contemporary history specialist who could provide more accurate information. Nowadays, 'trabalhador' is used as a sociological category, and 'empregado' has been substituted with the term 'funcionário’.
Best
susana


sandra lobo

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 9:22:06 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Yes, you are right  but I would say that in 19th century empregado would be more used for white colour and business employees.





Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


De: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> em nome de Susana Sardo <ssa...@ua.pt>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 13:17
Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] trabalhadores
 

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 9:37:51 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Thank you so much Sandra and Susana. Yes, that would be consistent, trabalhadores is stated in a 1869 baptism certificate and empregado occurs in certificates I've been looking up starting from the 1920s.

Now, there is one more conundrum to resolve. Let us assume Mr X, is noted as a trabalhadores in his son's baptism certificate. Is it also possible that X is upper-caste? Because every other signifier for this man is that he is upper-caste. He goes to Zanzibar, holds an job there with an influential British mercantile firm, he educates his son to be a doctor, who rises to the upper-echelons of Portuguese consular positions. Is it possible for 19th century Goa /Zanzibar to have provided such upward mobility? Also he is part of a group of Goans in Zanzibar who are all Portuguese speaking Goans, and his closest friends there are known brahmins. I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. (This is not a post about caste, but the machinations of caste in 19th century Goan-Zanzibari society.)

Any input would be appreciated.
Warm wishes,
Selma

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 9:39:02 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Thanks, Sonia.

sandra lobo

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 10:32:57 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Dear Selma. As you know caste and economic conditions do not necessarily coincide. I would say he could be  a Brahmin but my advice is that you check with a genealogist like Valmiki at this forum. Dependent of where his family comes from there may be the possibility of throwing some light on the matter.  My perception is that migration to Africa was dominated by upper caste/people with minimum financial conditions. Moving so far was costly. But I am not a specialist.






Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


tmn. ++351 930690459


De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 14:37
Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores
 

Susana Sardo

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 10:37:18 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Thank you Sandra! I was preparing a message very similar to yours…. I fully agree with you.
I would say that Selma’s data are not contradictory and probably correspond to many other similar situations of migration to Africa. 
hugs
susana

No dia 23/06/2023, às 15:32, sandra lobo <sandr...@netcabo.pt> escreveu:

Dear Selma. As you know caste and economic conditions do not necessarily coincide. I would say he could be  a Brahmin but my advice is that you check with a genealogist like Valmiki at this forum. Dependent of where his family comes from there may be the possibility of throwing some light on the matter.  My perception is that migration to Africa was dominated by upper caste/people with minimum financial conditions. Moving so far was costly. But I am not a specialist.






Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


<Outlook-isna0ytf.png><Outlook-yrsz1iqg.png>

<Outlook-4quxjnpo.png>


https://giepcip.wordpress.com/

tmn. ++351 930690459


De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 14:37
Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores
 
Thank you so much Sandra and Susana. Yes, that would be consistent, trabalhadores is stated in a 1869 baptism certificate and empregado occurs in certificates I've been looking up starting from the 1920s.

Now, there is one more conundrum to resolve. Let us assume Mr X, is noted as a trabalhadores in his son's baptism certificate. Is it also possible that X is upper-caste? Because every other signifier for this man is that he is upper-caste. He goes to Zanzibar, holds an job there with an influential British mercantile firm, he educates his son to be a doctor, who rises to the upper-echelons of Portuguese consular positions. Is it possible for 19th century Goa /Zanzibar to have provided such upward mobility? Also he is part of a group of Goans in Zanzibar who are all Portuguese speaking Goans, and his closest friends there are known brahmins. I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. (This is not a post about caste, but the machinations of caste in 19th century Goan-Zanzibari society.)

Any input would be appreciated.
Warm wishes,
Selma

On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 14:22:09 BST, sandra lobo <sandr...@netcabo.pt> wrote:


Yes, you are right  but I would say that in 19th century empregado would be more used for white colour and business employees.






Sandra Ataíde Lobo   


<Outlook-1io2igkw.png><Outlook-zapy23lv.png>

<Outlook-nj1i5ipc.png>


https://giepcip.wordpress.com/

tmn. ++351 930690459


Carvalho

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 10:48:01 AM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
True, a lot of upper-caste who had fallen on hard times made their way to Africa but this is an anomaly. Even if fallen on hard times, would they be documented as 'trabalhadores'? This opens up a can of worms but it falls outside the purview of my research area (19th century migration to East Africa) that I can't investigate it adequately, so I'll have to leave it at that.

Thank you, ladies.
Selma

Jules Fausto Mendonca de Sa

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 5:18:00 PM6/23/23
to 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net
Hi Selma,

I think I have an inkling as to the family you are alluding too who I believe are a high class Chardo family and the descendants held very high positions within the social strata in East Africa. They would interact with the Brahmin families on a one to one basis. My maternal uncle for instance was the godson of Rosario Sousa of Velsao who was the Portuguese Consul in East Africa around the same time as my maternal grand Uncle who I believe held a similar position in Mombasa

I do agree that sometimes baptism  documents do not give an accurate account and there are several instances of inaccuracies. When it comes to profession - I have seen instances where the person is classified as a proprietario and in another record as agricultor and in a third as jornaleiro. It also appears that names were distorted. For instance Isabel could appear as Jebelina or Gebelina or Elisabeth on various records.

Kind regards

Fausto 



Sent from Outlook


From: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 23 June 2023 15:47
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores
 

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 5:27:56 PM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Thanks, Fausto. Yes, perhaps it was an inaccuracy.

But that is not the family I was referring to. I have researched the Velsao Souza family thoroughly and have got pretty much to the bottom of their social and economic formation in the 19th century. I have even linked that family in a way the family themselves don't know about. Incidentally, no Souza from Velsao was consul general. It was a descendant of Felix Dias (also named Felix Dias) who was Rosario's partner that became consul in Mombasa. (too long a story to explain here).

take care,
selma

fredericknoronha

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 5:45:21 PM6/23/23
to Goa-Research-Net
If you apply the "To Konna'lo" test (as outlined by Prof Lucio Rodrigues), all one needs to do is find which village a person traces his or her roots. That plus his surname would indicate caste origins. (Not that I subscribe to the idea of promoting caste-based bigotry and bias, but just marvelled at this piece of writing, shared below for weekend reading.) FN

To Konna’lo?
By Lucio Rodrigues
[in Abolim: The flower songs, folk tales and legends of Goa]
 
KONKANI has its own unique expressions – words, phrases, idioms, proverbs, and other folksay, – linguistic miracles which defy translation into any other language. To konna’lo? is one such, with its several inflexions according to gender and number: tem konnalem, ti konna’li, te konna’le, teo konna’leo, tim konn’lim.
Literally, the phrase means, “which family does he belong to?” or “who are his parents?” It is apparently a simple interrogative, an expression of normal, healthy curiosity, expressing the concern that one human being has for another.
But to those who know their Konkani and belong to the social matrix of Goa, the phrase is far from simple and innocuous. True, it does express curiosity, but the curiosity is not the elementary curiosity of a mere individual. It is the highly sophisticated curiosity of the community, of organised society. The phrase is a masterpiece of verbal economy and semantic subtlety. It implies a social and moral attitude that is the result of a whole way of life rooted in the soil of Goa.
Though the phrase is known to all, it is never used indiscriminately. It is not to be bandied about in the street or the market-place. You cannot just speak it out glibly, or shout it out brazenly. Even in the drawing-room or the dance-hall, you cannot mouth it tactlessly. To do so would be the height of impertinence, and you would be summarily condemned as a very ill-mannered yokel.
In fact, the use of the phrase calls for the proper occasion and situation, the proper place and time, and above all, the most practised gesture and inflexion of voice. Its utterance is part of a ‘code’.
Goan society is based on a traditional hierarchy which has its origins in ancient Hindu India. It is a hierarchy of many tiers, arranged in a descending scale, each tier made up of a homogeneous group, with its own status, its own privileges and responsibilities, its own loyalties, and its own ‘code’ of honour, which have to be zealously guarded. An individual’s place in this hierarchy is determined solely by the accident of birth. The gods decide it all for you: you are born into a family which belongs to one of the social tiers, and there you ‘belong’, there you stay. Like the fixed stars in the heavens, you have your fixed station in the social firmament, and your set orbit.
In the good old days, before emigration and the spread of education began to disturb the feudal stability of life in Goa, everyone knew practically everyone else. Your identity was known, not only who you were, but also where you belonged. This is generally true in the villages even today. Such was the thoroughness with which the hierarchic social system was perpetuated that a large number of Hindu surnames could be interpreted as marks of identification which placed you definitely in one of the social tiers. However, an accident of history took place to disturb the old social order. Foreign conquest and conversion in the sixteenth century introduced new ideas of a free and equal society in Goa. The logic of the principle that all men are equal was a challenge to the traditional hierarchic practice, and the situation was fraught with perils. But the challenge had to be faced. Habits die hard; position and privilege cannot be easily surrendered; group loyalties cultivated over the centuries cannot be given up. The new ideas of social mobility were a threat to the homogeneity of the group that had to be maintained, the well-being of the members assured. This could be done by sedulously preventing the infiltration of intruders and upstarts or ‘outsiders’.
Under the new dispensation this was not as easy as before. Names, for example, were arbitrarily changed, and one clue to the identity of an individual came to be lost. ‘Fernandes’ or ‘Colaco’ offered no clue to the status of an individual christened with the new foreign name, as ‘Sar desai’ or ‘Borkar’ offered. A ‘Colaco’ could be anyone from the highest-born to the lowest-born.
In this state of anonymity and impending social confusion, a technique had to be devised to discover the identity of the individual, so that the privileges enjoyed exclusively by the high-born could be safeguarded. In the field of employment, for instance, unwanted low-born competitors had to be eliminated. The loaves and fishes of office had to be distributed among members of the group that enjoyed the patronage of the rulers. The elders who held office had not only to see that their relatives, whom they knew, were well-placed, but also see that further recruitment was confined to the members of the social group they traditionally belonged to. This called for the closest scrutiny and circumspection.
This was a task for the new Goan gentleman. A gentleman, as Cardinal Newman has it, is one who never hurts others. So when the job-seeker had to be ‘placed’ socially, it had to be done in a gentlemanly manner. The problem was to find an answer to the crucial question which the upholders of the old hierarchic order had invented in the face of the new challenge: To konna’lo? An easy way would have been to ask the party a direct question: Tum konna’lo? But that would be against the spirit of the new civilization. The process of detection had to be oblique and casual. By indirections find directions out: that was the civilized way.
“Which village do you come from?” is usually the opening question. Like the old surnames, the names of several villages in Goa are associated with a certain social group that has a major population in it. If your reply is Assagao, or Saligao, or Moira, or Velim, or Cuncolim, or St. Estevam, the problem of ‘placing’ you is not very difficult. There is a supplementary to this: “From which ward?” which tracks you down nearer home. The pursuit continues, however, “Do you know so-and-so?” It is a change from place to person generating an atmosphere of intimacy. If the answer is “yes”, then pat comes the confidence move, “He’s my mother’s sister’s sister-in-law’s husband’s son-in-law”. You reel under the impact of this chain of relatives, and when you have recovered from the attempt to unravel the complexity of the relationship, you warm up to the occasion and discover him, “Ah! he’s my father’s sister’s brother-in-law’s daughter’s son”. It is a mutual discovery, and he bursts upon you with the cabalistic phrase, “Are, tum amcho mum-re!” You are not only ‘placed’; you are accepted. You join the chosen band of the privileged.
Another occasion calls for a like investigation. Traditionally marriage in Goa is endogamous. It is arranged between members of the same social group. It is not a personal affair, but a family affair, and it is mother-made. Goa is dotted with Donas with grown-up daughters, whose giving away in marriage is a matter of great concern and calls for perpetual vigilance. It is not only that an adequate dowry has to be provided; a proper husband has to be chosen. The young man need not be rich; he need not be highly educated; in fact, he need not even be young. There may be a bunch of decaying beatas in his house, not to speak of a number of aged tios. The family may even have bred quite a few endde. But the proper husband-to-be must ‘belong’ to the social group of his mother-in-law-to-be.
One of the happy hunting grounds for these Donas is the dance-hall, which offers a wide range of eligible young, or not so young, bachelors. Many a marriage has been arranged in this place, and many more are still arranged. Bejewelled, laced and feathered, these Goans of a dying species chaperoned their daughters to the hall and took their seats at a vantage point from where they could survey the whole scene.
Imagine them in a phalanx, these pillars of the traditional hierarchy, fanning themselves while they observe and comment upon the young couples on the floor. Perhaps, one of them spots her daughter swaying in the arms of a handsome young man. She has not seen him before, but he looks eligible. Perhaps, he is making overtures to her daughter. Anything can happen while two young people dance cheek to cheek. She has to make a quick move to prevent a mésalliance. Her cronies on either side can come to her rescue and enlighten her. Some of them are experts at genealogy; they know family trees from the roots upwards to the smallest twig.
And so she leans to her left, her face half-covered with the spread-out fan, and whispers in her neighbour’s ear the great question – To konna’lo re? pointing to the young man with her raised eyebrow and fixed look. This is the classic occasion for the use of the phrase. The young aspirant is minutely scanned, perhaps with the aid of a lorgnette, and ‘placed’, with a superior sniff and a whispered contempt. His predicament has been very precisely stated by Prufrock:
...eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall.
He does not belong. The establishment is secure.
Of course, in spite of the heroic efforts of such Donas, there have been cracks in the establishment in recent years. There is greater social mobility than ever before. But social attitudes practised over the centuries become part of the subconscious mind and resist change. The attitude crystallised in the phrase, To konna’lo? formed the warp and woof of Goan society. It played a furtive role in the corridors of the seminary, in the vestry of the church, and in the chapter of the cathedral. It received a sanction in Goan folklore, was codified in proverbs and immortalised in the following legend.
The two adjoining villages in Bardez, Sangolda and Guirim, have each a major population of one social group. They have one church, however, and one patron saint on the centre altar, the side altars being dedicated to the Holy Name of Jesus, and Our Lady of the Rosary. The religious loyalty of each of the two social groups is attached to one of the side altars.
It happened once that an old woman in Guirim was on her death-bed. Now, it is a custom in Goa to teach prayers to the dying and end them with the ejaculation, Jesus pau!” (Help me, Jesus). The young woman who taught her the prayers finally whispered in the ears of the dying, “Repeat after me: Jesus help me!” Hardly had she uttered the ejaculation when the old woman opened her eyes wide and shook her head most piously, “Jezus amcho nhum. Jezus ten’cho!” and she closed her eyes and died.
Perhaps, the old woman has changed her attitude in the other world. But in this world the Goan mind generally wavers between ‘decisions and indecisions’ on this social problem. And if I speak wrong, dear reader, tell me this: has a question been flitting in and out of your mind as you have been reading what I have written: to konna’lo?
Your answer alone will prove or disprove what I have been saying.
* * * 

alan machado

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 9:09:22 PM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Hi Selma
Just saw this
If it is of any help, Among the penitents list by the Inquisition are 89 whose ethnicity/occupation are given as trabalhador. They include Sudros, Bramenes, Charados, Curumbims. Hope to put this data up soon so anyone interested can access and use 
Alan  

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB6294B564D722E34AE3B98835A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 23, 2023, 11:42:56 PM6/23/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Thanks much, Alan.
Take care,
Selma

John Nazareth

unread,
Jun 24, 2023, 12:11:34 AM6/24/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

For what it’s worth, here is a translation of terms from Google Translate that gives us a hint of how the terms might be used (as there is overlap)

 

employee

empregado, funcionário

servant

servo, criado, servidor, empregado, funcionário, criada

clerk

funcionário, balconista, escriturário, empregado, empregado de escritório, sacristão

porter

porteiro, carregador, bagageiro, empregado, cabineiro, cerveja preta tipo porter

menial

criado, capacho, servo, lacaio, empregado, pessoa servil

shop assistant

caixeiro, empregado, empregada

perquisite

gratificação, privilégio, emolumentos, empregado

door's-man

porteiro, carregador, empregado

adjective

servant

empregado

appointed

empregado

 

journalist

jornalista

 

newsboy

jornaleiro

 

 

Regards

 

John

 

From: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 11:42 PM
To: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores

 

Thanks much, Alan.

Take care,

Selma

 

On Saturday, 24 June 2023 at 02:09:26 BST, alan machado <alan.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Hi Selma

Just saw this

If it is of any help, Among the penitents list by the Inquisition are 89 whose ethnicity/occupation are given as trabalhador. They include Sudros, Bramenes, Charados, Curumbims. Hope to put this data up soon so anyone interested can access and use 

Alan  

 

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:02 PM sandra lobo <sandr...@netcabo.pt> wrote:

Dear Selma. As you know caste and economic conditions do not necessarily coincide. I would say he could be  a Brahmin but my advice is that you check with a genealogist like Valmiki at this forum. Dependent of where his family comes from there may be the possibility of throwing some light on the matter.  My perception is that migration to Africa was dominated by upper caste/people with minimum financial conditions. Moving so far was costly. But I am not a specialist.

 

 

 

 

 

Sandra Ataíde Lobo  

tmn. ++351 930690459

 

De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 14:37
Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores

 

Thank you so much Sandra and Susana. Yes, that would be consistent, trabalhadores is stated in a 1869 baptism certificate and empregado occurs in certificates I've been looking up starting from the 1920s.

 

Now, there is one more conundrum to resolve. Let us assume Mr X, is noted as a trabalhadores in his son's baptism certificate. Is it also possible that X is upper-caste? Because every other signifier for this man is that he is upper-caste. He goes to Zanzibar, holds an job there with an influential British mercantile firm, he educates his son to be a doctor, who rises to the upper-echelons of Portuguese consular positions. Is it possible for 19th century Goa /Zanzibar to have provided such upward mobility? Also he is part of a group of Goans in Zanzibar who are all Portuguese speaking Goans, and his closest friends there are known brahmins. I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. (This is not a post about caste, but the machinations of caste in 19th century Goan-Zanzibari society.)

 

Any input would be appreciated.

Warm wishes,

Selma

 

On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 14:22:09 BST, sandra lobo <sandr...@netcabo.pt> wrote:

 

 

Yes, you are right  but I would say that in 19th century empregado would be more used for white colour and business employees.

 

 

 

 

 

Sandra Ataíde Lobo   

tmn. ++351 930690459

 

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 24, 2023, 12:36:22 AM6/24/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Dear John,

Since you've been through 100s of these certificates, perhaps you care to hazard a guess as to how these terms were used in 19th century Goa and if at all they corresponded to caste. The other genealogist I work with and our common friend says they are difficult to put into context or draw some sort of coherent conclusion. Certainly, a job for the academics.

Take care,
Selma

Pedro Mascarenhas

unread,
Jun 24, 2023, 6:36:35 AM6/24/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Dear Selma
When you have time to read, see these 2 attached, where the anthropologist Lucinda, born in Mozambique, briefly describes the Goans of the city of Beira.
It's two pages from Ecos do Oriente magazine, you'll have to translate it. 
.


Lucinda e goeses de Moç-01.jpg
Lucinda e goeses de Moç-02.jpg

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 24, 2023, 7:42:42 AM6/24/23
to 'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net
Thank you very Pedro.

John Nazareth

unread,
Jun 24, 2023, 7:12:27 PM6/24/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

Dear Selma

 

When I first went through these records I was concentrating on specific areas to be able to trace my family tree.

I had limited time in the Panjim Archives and did not concentrate on the professions of the people as given.

And I was learning Portuguese (the critical words) on the fly.

Many of them were not at all specific – it was as if they were going through the motions and were giving very general professions such as “employees”. For women, they would say “domestics” or “landowners”. I did notice that a lot of people from Sao Matias (AKA Malar) of Divar has “musician” as a profession.

 

I am amazed at how much can be done with these records. One friend wanted to do some life expectancy studies.

 

It looks like one has to go back over old records a number of times to get more info.

 

I first started learning Portuguese to look over records in the Panjim Archives in 2007.

When I came back to Toronto I wrote up some notes, critical words to guide me.

So when I went back over the same books in 2016 I found 3 times more records of interest just to trace my family tree.

Now I see that we could go back to look at other elements of interest.

That is why it is so important to have these records digitized.

Carvalho

unread,
Jun 25, 2023, 4:18:55 AM6/25/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Thank you, John. I only needed a few records investigated of Goans who had travelled to Zanzibar in the 1800s and then out of curiosity I started to randomly look at records which are online. There is an absolute feast of information in these records one can draw on, such as was the child baptised at home or at the parish, on one record, the child was so much in danger, the mid-wife baptised him. Then there are occupations, godparents, parentage. The detail is not consistent throughout Goa. Later records, that is mid-19th century onwards have more detail than prior.

Unfortunately, some enquiries from me to my researcher came back as book too degraded or book under reconstruction or book missing. I don't want to restart this conversation but we Goans must do something to preserve those records, I just don't know what. 

Take care,
Selma

Sonia Gomes

unread,
Jun 25, 2023, 7:55:36 PM6/25/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Hi Fausto,

Am quite confused with your ' interacted with the Brahmins on a one to one basis' 

Thank you in anticipation

Sonia 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147AAD0329E4D4A71505B1CFF20A%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.

alan machado

unread,
Jun 25, 2023, 9:22:19 PM6/25/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

hello John
jornaleiro was a term used for daily labourer. suppose something like lavrador (agriculural labourer), 

Alan

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1249076721.2621381.1687681131529%40mail.yahoo.com.

John Nazareth

unread,
Jun 25, 2023, 9:28:50 PM6/25/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

The direct translation of “jornaleiro” is “newsboy”.

The daily labourer was the person person who carried the gossip from house to house, hence …….

Sorry, I could help myself.

John

alan machado

unread,
Jun 25, 2023, 10:35:39 PM6/25/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
Ah. makes sense
Thanks
Alan 

sandra lobo

unread,
Jun 26, 2023, 2:13:07 AM6/26/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
the ethimology of jornaleiro in this sense is jorna, that is daily paid labour




Sandra Ataíde Lobo  


De: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com> em nome de John Nazareth <jhr_na...@hotmail.com>
Enviado: 26 de junho de 2023 02:28
Para: goa-rese...@googlegroups.com <goa-rese...@googlegroups.com>
Assunto: RE: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores
 

alan machado

unread,
Jun 26, 2023, 3:46:55 AM6/26/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com
thanks Sandra

Pedro Mascarenhas

unread,
Jun 26, 2023, 7:37:27 AM6/26/23
to goa-rese...@googlegroups.com

Do not confuse the Portuguese words

DEFINITIVAMENTE on baptism certificates applied in the Goan rural case: the word «jornaleiro» means «daily wage worker».

This is what the Portuguese dictionary INFOPÉDIA reports:

Não confundam as palavras portuguesas

Eis o que relata o dicionário português INFOPÉDIA:

 

jornaleiro

jor.na.lei.roʒurnɐˈlɐjru

adjetivo

1.

diz-se de quem trabalha por um salário diário (sobretudo, em atividades agrícolas)

2.

Brasil que se faz a cada dia; diário; quotidiano

nome masculino

1.

pessoa que trabalha à jorna (sobretudo em atividades agrícolas), recebendo um salário diário

2.

Brasil pessoa que tem por trabalho vender ou entregar jornais na rua; ardina




3.

depreciativo jornalista sem mérito ou pouco escrupuloso

 

 

1.

said of someone who works for a daily wage (mainly in agricultural activities)

2.

Brazil that is made every day; daily; everyday

male name

1.

person who works a day (mainly in agricultural activities), receiving a daily wage

2.

Brazil ......a person whose job is to sell or deliver newspapers on the street; ardina

3.

derogatory journalist without merit or unscrupulous

.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

There are more:

in Ciberdúvidas da Língua Portuguesa

'O significado e a origem de jornaleiro

 Qual o significado e a origem da palavra jornaleiro?

 

Gabriel Zambana  Fogueiro  Lisboa, Portugal  9K

Sobre o significado de jornaleiro, o Dicionário Eletrônico Houaiss diz tratar-se de um adjetivo que se refere àquilo «que se faz dia a dia», àquilo que é «diário». A palavra também se usa como substantivo masculino e adjetivo quando designa «[um] trabalhador a quem se paga jornal» ou aquilo que se relaciona com este tipo de trabalhador. Em relação à formação do vocábulo, trata-se de um derivado sufixal (jornal + -eiro), cuja base é o substantivo jornal, sinónimo de jorna, «salário diário», e que se atesta desde o século XIV (idem). Sobre a etimologia de jornaleiro, José Pedro Machado, no Dicionário Etimológico da Língua Portuguesa, acrescenta: «De jornal. Em 1223: "quem jornaleiro alheo matar seu amo aja ho mezio", Leges, p. 595.» De notar que jornaleiro também se usa com o significado de «vendedor de jornais», sendo um derivado de jornal, no sentido de «publicação diária» (cf. Dicionário Houaiss).

 

Bárbara Nadais Gama  5 de dezembro de 2014'

 

in Ciberdúvidas da Língua Portuguesa, https://ciberduvidas.iscte-iul.pt/consultorio/perguntas/o-significado-e-a-origem-de-jornaleiro/33204 [consultado em 26-06-2023]

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages