Goan food in Bassein

[eric pinto]

The women who sold us bananas would ask us to take in their children and we did. Thanks to them I am fluent in 

Marathi. I hope the English contamination has not arrived in Bassein. 

    Every Parish Priest was a Goan sixty years ago and my father would call it a shame. He saw them as mercenaries.

I am glad there now are native priests and two bishops.

    I hope the fields survive in the community. And their homes.

    There used to be an available supply of priests from Goa in Bombay to supply to Chaul. When Peter Gomes retired

( he is buried in Chorao ) the replacement could not preach in Portuguese: they rose and protested in the church. Valerian

closed the premises and deprived them of services for several months. Sad because they had clung to the language for

four hundred years under British rule. They proudly called themselves Norteiros.

     I do hope you make it to Papdi and Remedy and Merces.

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 01:08:31 AM EST, Aloysius D'Souza <smhs...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the invitation --  would love to accept   --  except that I now live in Goa .

 This will entice me to go to Mumbai and visit Vassai

Aloysius 

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 9:21 AM eric pinto <ericp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I wonder if an East Indian place exists.   Also spend a thousand or two at the Goan, will send you the cash.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goan food in VASAI

https://youtu.be/CR-OZDYEoII

[Eugene Correia]

I also saw a video of a restaurant serving Goan food in Uttan. I suppose there are a few there which cater Goan food. I heard of Goa Portuguese, but I suppose it's in Bandra or Mahim. A friend said the food was good there.

Eugene. 

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 1:39 PM Eugene Correia <eugene....@gmail.com> wrote:

Is it not "noteres", the Portuguese Christians. During the Golden Jubilee of Queen Victoria, these Christians asked the British to be called "East Indians." Even children of mixed parentage, Indo-British, in Madras, now Chennai, and Calcutta now Kolkata, were called East Indians, then later they began calling themselves Anglo-Indianns.

Eugene

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[Eugene Correia]

That's what Olga Valladares spelled as in one of her papers. She's East Indian and, if I remember correctly, daughter of the great East Indian leader Kaka Baptista. She also did her MA thesis on the Goan "Corrs" (Kudds, for us Goans). I don't know if it was during your time in Mumbai, she was a columnist for The Evening News of India, writing on the city. Don't know if she's still alive. 

Eugene

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 1:47 PM eric pinto <ericp...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Goa was the southern property. We in Goa are not familiar with 'East Indian' and have never used the term. Can John clarify.

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 01:39:56 PM EST, Eugene Correia <eugene....@gmail.com> wrote:

Is it not "noteres", the Portuguese Christians. During the Golden Jubilee of Queen Victoria, these Christians asked the British to be called "East Indians." Even children of mixed parentage, Indo-British, in Madras, now Chennai, and Calcutta now Kolkata, were called East Indians, then later they began calling themselves Anglo-Indianns.

Eugene

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[eric pinto]

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 02:51:32 PM EST, Eugene Correia <eugene....@gmail.com> wrote:

That's what Olga Valladares spelled as in one of her papers. She's East Indian and, if I remember correctly, daughter of the great East Indian leader Kaka Baptista. She also did her MA thesis on the Goan "Corrs" (Kudds, for us Goans). I don't know if it was during your time in Mumbai, she was a columnist for The Evening News of India, writing on the city. Don't know if she's still alive. 

Eugene

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[Eugene Correia]

Were not the Portuuguse Christians also called earlier as Salcette Christians, as Bassien and surrounding areas were part of the large area called Salcette. Unlike the Goan community, the East Indian community is not caste-based but they have groups. It was from this community that the first Indian saint came from, though he's not known by his name. His name was Gonsalo Gonsalves, and he was part of the group of priess martyred in Japan. If I remember correctly, a church in his honour stands in Bassien.

Eugene

[Eugene Correia]

Sorry, I said Gonsalo Gonsalves. His surname was Gracias.

First Indian Christian Saint,, whereas Goans believe Fr. Joseph Vaz, who was recently given sainthood,  is the first 

Indian to be elevated to the great honour.

Eugene

[John de Figueiredo]

Eugene: 

He was only half Indian. His father was European (Portuguese) and his mother was Konkani. If you go by ancestry, Jose Vaz was the first. If you go by birthplace, he was the first. Perhaps we should say that he was the first martyr and Jose Vaz was the first Saint.

John

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On Mar 2, 2021, at 10:20 PM, Eugene Correia <eugene....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John de Figueiredo]

Also his last name was Garcia, not Gracias. The name Garcia is much more common in Portugal than in Goa. Gracias is more common in Goa than in Portugal.

John

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On Mar 2, 2021, at 10:20 PM, Eugene Correia <eugene....@gmail.com> wrote:



[Eugene Correia]

Given the fact that Gonsalo's fater wss Portuguese, his mother was native. Technically, yes a half-Indian. Just as an Anglo-Indian, who are recognised as Indian-citizens unless the person denounces his Indian citizenship.

For that matter, Jose Vaz had for all purposes, except for his birth, taken on Sinhalese way of life. Hence, he has been declared Apostle of Sri Lanka. But Goans claim as our "saint", and rejoice in such thought.

This dual-nationality, on hereditary and choice, is problematic. In India, thrre was a reserved parliamentary seat for Anglo-Indians. I think it's abolished now.

Let's not cut-and-dice it. Gonsalo is now part of group  declared as Saints, but for East-Indian Christans, and Indians at large, he is India's first Saint, though i wish in my heart that honour would go to Jose Vaz. No splitting hair on this issue.

Unfortunately, very few Christians know about him, more so Goans. With a gaping mouth, they will ask, To konn?

Eugenio (feeling Portuguese now) 🤩

[Eugene Correia]

The surname mistake was mine. I knew it was Gracia. 

Another point is that they are called East Indians because of ecclesiastical reasons,  as the area came under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of East Indies.

Geographically, they are on the west.  For Portuguese  they were on the north side of Bombay.

Eugene

[Frederick Noronha]

Olga Valladares (nee Baptista, d.2019 probably in her 80s) is

not the daughter of 'Kaka' Baptista (1864-1930).  She
couldn't be, considering their years of birth/death.  Eugene
might be mixing up with Elsie Baptista, the author of the
book on the East Indians.  But she too is not the
daughter/granddaughter of 'Kaka' Baptista, though perhaps
distantly related to the family, according to my EI journo
friend Ashley D'Mello.

The interesting thing about Joseph 'Kaka' (Uncle) baptista
was that he was closely associated with Lokmanya Tilak and,
as a practising barrister at the BOmbay High Court, had
Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (icon of the Hindutva Right) as one
of his high-profile clients.

He was apparently influenced by the Irish Home Rule movement,
and coined the slogan "Swaraj is my Birthright" (for which
Tilak later became famous for).
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Baptista

Other observations:

* It was Olga's MA dissertation (not thesis), tho well  written
* As noted above, she passed away in Au in 2019
* See her obit:
  https://www.pressreader.com/india/mid-day/20190320/281603831802467
* The East Indians are divided into cultural groups/castes:
  Kulbis, Samavedi (Kuparis), Koli, Wadvals and Salcette
  Christians.  It is little consolation to see others too
  following caste, and there's no consolation in that, but
  just to clarify on the point you make.
* I met a nun once, who made it a point to tell me she was
  "Samvedi Brahmin".
* You seem to be extending the debate of "citizenship" to
  times when the concept probably didn't exist. At least,
  not in the sense we understand it now.
* There are many different, and much-contended, views on why
  the term "East Indians" came about.
* John, pls note: The East Indians are not "Konkani" but
  "Marathi".  Unlike the Mangaloreans, they have no ethnic
  connection with Goa, apart from the fact that they were
  converted by the Portuguese and shared colonial experience
  for some (crucial) part of their history.  Something about
  their language: "Mumbai Marathi or the East Indian language
  is a dialect of Marathi with significant Portuguese
  influences and loanwords.  Although it does not have a
  unique script, scripts of the other languages native to the
  regions its speakers inhabit are used.  Devanagari and
  Latin is used by most of the speakers."
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Indian_language

Subject to correction. FN

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[John de Figueiredo]

Gonçalo Garcia’s mother was born in Bacaim (now called Vassai). Bacaim is historically part of the Konkan. Since the Konkan was not made a separate State after the independence of India, the Konkan became divided into Maharashtra, Goa, and Karnataka. Therefore his mother was born in the Konkan portion of today’s Maharashtria which makes her a Konkani.

John

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 3, 2021, at 5:01 AM, Frederick Noronha <frederic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> observations:

[Eugene Correia]

The East Indians are caught in the middle, either clumped as Maharastrains or Konkanis. Those converted are also called Maharashttran Christians. Like the aboriginals in Canada, US and N who are natives of the land they are in, the East Indian claim that Bombay belongs to them.  The old Bombay Presidency was split following the protests and agitation. They have contributed their share to make the city what it;s become but in the political make-up, the East Indians have been relegated to the background. 

Fred could be right, as he has done his search on Wiki.  I know that Elsie Baptista was considered an authority on the community. I haven't read her book, but she was often quoted on East Indian matters. I don't know if she was related to Kaka Baptista.

I still remember Michael Ferreira's anger when he was not given due recognition and honour by the then Bombay Municipality Corporation after winning the world billiards title. If he was Maharashtrian, the BMC would roll out the red carpet. 

I remember seeing a board hanging outside a building or premises in Bandra saying the property belongs to the Salcette Cooperative Society (maybe the name was different). I used to go often to the Bandra Gymkhana. 

Yes, Joseph Baptista was closely associated with Lokmanya Tilak and the Indian freedom movement. 

As for Olga, maybe I am wrong. I remember reading her columns in The Evening News of India. She did her BA in Education and MA in Sociology on the Corrs (Kudds).

In a way, East Indians are "country cousins" of Goans :-(. I, for one, love their "bottle masala", and I don't why it's called so. 

Eugene

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[eric pinto]

I did not want to touch this hot potato :  it was fertile ground for hate, and leading the battle in the Examiner were Prof. Gracias ( mathematics, St. Xaviers ) and my 

late father, Martin. It really became passionate, starting as as soon the groups sainthood was proclaimed. The priest's mother was always referred to as Canarin

in the historical record. And we know that to Portugal, Goans were Canarin. Church records were in their their script, until we went Roman. I do not believe there

ever existed a Devnagiri interim. That does not mean we were not invading Arya : our God did after all deliver  us the new colony, at the tip of His arrow/banavli.

   Anyone who chooses to question this goes up in smoke, every available shade.

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:13 AM John de Figueiredo <john...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Gonçalo Garcia’s mother was born in Bacaim (now called Vassai). Bacaim is historically part of the Konkan. Since the Konkan was not made a separate State after the independence of India, the Konkan became divided into Maharashtra, Goa, and Karnataka. Therefore his mother was born in the Konkan portion of today’s Maharashtria which makes her a Konkani.
John

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 3, 2021, at 5:01 AM, Frederick Noronha <frederic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> observations:

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[Eugene Correia]

in this wide-ranging issue of East Indians/Goans/Portuguese, do the East Indians, especially Christians, still consider benefactors of the Portuguese rule. In my visits to East Indian strongholds in Mumbai, including their settlements in Cavel, Kothachiwadi, Mahim and Bandra, the Portuguese influences seems very minimal, if one ever sees them.

Unlike a large percentage of Goans in Goa show affection for Portugal, East Indians or Salcette Christians have little or no traces of Portuguese influence. The most significant of the Portuguese presence in this community of Christians is the Portuguese first name or surname they carry.

In a booklet, This is Portugal, one para says, "Portugal may well pride itself that the flame of love in the hearts of the sons of Goas will never waiver, because it is fed with the benefits if her civilization. India may well consider free and clean from the black dots or ingratitude thus healing the wound opened in the heart of the mother who since its childhood caressed the cherished daughter with all kinds of privilege."

The flowery language does strike the heart and this resounding words could have swayed the Goans in 1950, just few years after India got its Independence. From then to now, there are instances of Portuguese lore and flourish in certain places, particularly in the Fontainhas area of Panaji. Except in the architecture and the churches that echoes the Portuguese touch and sentiment, one can hardly find Portugal's presence in any significant way.

How many Goans, besides those in the knowledge industry such as academicians and journalists, know about Bombay being under the Portuguese. I had to tell many Goans that the name came from the Portuguese till it was renamed as Mumbai. Years after colonialization there are few traces left. The new generation of Mumbaiies and even the new generation of Goans in Goa are perhaps aware of the Portuguese but practically they have their own identity, maybe neo-Indian, if ever such a term can be applied.

True, Portuguese India, just like British India and French India, lives in the history books. Like the East Indians, The New-generation of Goans could well be on the road to their own "identity", though it would be a mix-up or entirely Indian with supplementary overlay of Portuguese input, particularly in cuisine and music.

Just some random thoughts, as myself wasn't fully cultivated in the Portuguese pot-boiler.

Eugene

[Frederick Noronha]

Don't mean to split hairs, John, but when you write "His father was European (Portuguese) and his mother was Konkani..." there is some bit of ambiguity here.

Konkan is a geographical region (from near Daman to near Karwar).

Konkani is a language

In modern usage, the term Konkanis is sometimes used to describe a caste (Saraswats in Karnataka).

It would be obvious from the above, that the Konkan region does not extend to all the Konkani-speaking areas of the west and southern coast of India. Nor are all those in the Konkani region, Konkani speakers.

We're close to that perennial question: Do they speak Hindu in India?

FN

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[Frederick Noronha]

Some more "search on Wiki" (sic), which might have gone by unnoticed:

Bombay before the British, the Indo-Portuguese layer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Before_the_British:_the_Indo-portuguese_layer.

Its contributors include Sidh Mendiratta (I think). Interesting info. FN

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 20:20, Eugene Correia <eugene....@gmail.com> wrote: 

Fred could be right, as he has done his search on Wiki.  I know that Elsie Baptista was considered an authority on the community. I haven't read her book, but she was often quoted on East Indian matters. I don't know if she was related to Kaka Baptista. 

--

[John de Figueiredo]

When I say Konkani (people) I mean inhabitants of the geographical region called Konkan (Northern Konkan snd Southern Konkan) which extends from the river Damanganga to the river Aghanashini. I only use the word Konkani to refer to the people whose ancestors were born in that region and to their language.

Regarding the Portuguese calling us “canarim” that was at the very beginning. They quickly recognized it was a mistake and that they we were concanis and not canarins. This was already recognized in the 16th century. Sometimes they would use canarim even later than that but the mistake had already been recognized in the 16th century.

John

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On Mar 3, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Frederick Noronha <frederic...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[eric pinto]

  Goa was Dravid territory.  Then God's arrow ( banvali ) brought us to the new promised land. We installed new rulers - Kadambas, and our

  language - Sanskrit/Kokanni.   The Dravid made a comeback - Vijaynagar. They inflicted their script on us and decided we were Canarins.

  The Portuguese decided to buy  the line and also called us that.  Using the logic, another three hundred years of Bijapur would qualify us 

 for Uzbek or Georgian or whatever: not valid, just as Canarin was not.

      Four hundred miles lie between Goa and Bassein. Did Portugal call them Canarin too, after the conversions. I doubt it.

      I am inclined to believe that Gonsalo's carried his Goan/Canarin bride to the new pasture of Bassein, where Gonsalo was born.

      Serendipity  intervened to install Simon Pimenta as Bombay's archbishop at the moment of the Garcia canonization. He was

East Indian, and I knew him well : a good man, and learned with an early degree in mathematics. It was he who beat Goa to claiming

Gonsalo for the the East Indians. All ends well, we did get a saint after all, Jose Vas.