The first Goan in the mainly white Loreto Convent Valley Road

[Mervyn Maciel]

And here are two more links on Dr. Rose D'Sa's book by our

friend, Cyprian Fernandes.

Mervyn Maciel

https://www.headlinesofmylife.today/2022/10/the-law-and-dr-rose-m-dsa.html

https://www.headlinesofmylife.today/2022/10/the-first-goan-to-crack-race-bar-at.html

The first Goan in the mainly white

Loreto Convent Valley Road

[Jeanne Hromnik]

What an ecovative headline!

I believe I was among the first Goans at Loreto Convent M'songari. We were allowed in post-self government, pre-independence, and I am grateful to my parents that they did not compel me to go earlier.

The trauma of 'first' entrants, while not as dramatic, can be compared to that of Afro American students at Alabama State University in the US. I look back on my two years at Loreto M'songari with anything but gratitude to the nuns who made this superior education available to 'us' -- finally. Their racial attitudes are so deeply ingrained. Their moral qualities, in face of their record of discrimination, questionable.

Anyway, I look forward to reading Cyprian's piece. Thanks for posting it, Mervyn.

Best wishes

Jeanne

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[Mervyn Maciel]

An evocative headline indeed, Jeanne!

I am not aware of the year you attended Loreto Convent, but reading through

Rose D'Sa's book, she has this to say in one of the paragraphs:

" My parents made sure that I went to the very best school they could afford in Nairobi.

My primary and secondary education took place at the Loreto Convent Valley School, run by 

Roman Catholic nuns. I've been told that, after Kenya's independence, it was the first

'all white' school to open its doors to non-white families".. and in a further paragraph

she goes on to say....

" I can still remember parts of my first day at Valley Road....

I was well aware that  every single child in the room was white, except for me, but

it was the strangeness of the school rather than the race of the pupils that I was most

worried about ''

   In one of the pages, there is a lovely photo of Rose presenting her first book to

Sister Evangelist at Loreto Convent School.

I enjoyed reading her book as it took me back to my own days growing up

in Nairobi.

Best.

Mervyn

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

Dear Mervyn

We will never see things alike.
But I like you and respect you and there is no overriding our EAA connection.

Regards

Jeanne

For the uninitiated EAA means East African Asian.

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[Eddie D'Sa]

So the Catholic God decided to be racist at Loreto. Ha, ha.

Eddie

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[Mervyn Maciel]

Don't Know where Eddie gets that from?

Here's a comment from Rose D'Sa:

" My experience at Loreto Convent Valley Road was quite different. I may have noticed some racism, but simply overlooked it; there was another focus within me, that of 'going juu'. I therefore remember most of the nuns with affection, especially those no longer living. It seems I have been greatly blessed by God in many different ways, including and especially, in childhood."

Mervyn Maciel

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

Why slam God?

Xxj

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[Frederick Noronha]

Someone said God is created in the image and likeness of man. 

If that were true, She would also be (at least a wee bit) racist, no? 

Like all of us are?

FN

Sender notified by Mailtrack

15/10/22, 02:12:08 pm

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ᐧ

[Mervyn Maciel]

I think Eddie's comment was rather crude.

Why do we need to bring God in all our discussions???

Mervyn Maciel

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

But Mervyn, WHY should we overlook racism? Don't our lives matter?

Is everything all about the race to the top?

Do you not feel some resentment and regret on account of your role in the British racist administration in Kenya?

xxj

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

Gosh, Frederico. I didn't know you were a wee bit racist. I expect all Indians are.

In fact, they are considered by some to be the worst racists of all, being so practised in caste distinctions.

It is very heartening to see that you recognise this in yourself.

Jeanne

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[Eugene Correia]

That the "likeness of man" is just rhetoric, and there's nary any bit of truth in that. No one has seen God, Jesus was said to be "Son of God". The very fact that Jesus, in most cases, is said to be the God the Redeemer, as he's said to have taken away our sins. Theology is warped in language that's not to be taken as "word of God'. God is many things to different people.

Eugene

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[fredericknoronha2]

Jeanne Hromnik wrote:
----------------------------

Gosh, Frederico.  I didn't know
you were a wee bit racist.  I
expect all Indians are.  In
fact, they are considered by
some to be the worst racists of
all, being so practised in
caste distinctions.  It is very
heartening to see that you
recognise this in yourself. Jeanne

Jeanne, I need to understand what exactly your complaint is about here:

* That I am only a wee bit racist?
* That I don't understand the full degree of my racism?
* That you didn't know, but I did, about my racism?
* That all Indians are racist, and I'm part of that, so I am too?
* That I'm come clean over it?

Do clarify. FN

Eugene Correia wrote:
----------------------------
ugene Correia<eugene....@gmail.com>

That the "likeness of man" is
just rhetoric, and there's nary
any bit of truth in that.  No
one has seen God, Jesus was
said to be "Son of God".  The
very fact that Jesus, in most
cases, is said to be the God
the Redeemer, as he's said to
have taken away our sins.
Theology is warped in language
that's not to be taken as "word
of God'.  God is many things to
different people.

I think you got me all wrong, mate!  I didn't say that man
was created in the likeness of God (and woman out of his
rib).  I suggested that it could have well have been the
other way around....

About Theology, I never studied it. So won't go there....

What's wrong with us, with all such talks about God on the
God Book Club, er, Goa Book Club?  This seems like attempts
to fill what might seem like a slow Saturday.  Nobody would
guess that another book on an equally sizzling three-letter
word (sex) is/was being released at the Literati in Calangute
today.

FN

[Jeanne Hromnik]

Btw Frederick, I do have a complaint and that is your love of lists.

I hope I am not sending you off on another one.

Best wishes

Jeanne

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022, 00:20 Jeanne Hromnik, <jeanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

No complaint, Frederick.

Only congratulations on your honesty.

Jeanne

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[Selma Carvalho]

I don't want to get involved in these debates but I do want to say, I've known Mervyn for 14 years, almost as long as I have been researching the Goan presence in East Africa. I know the structures that existed there, I know these lives intimately. When we are living a life, we are not thinking of contextualising it, we are only living as best we can in order to survive. And when everyday minutiae is unfolding it is varied and nuanced and complex. By all accounts, Mervyn has led an honourable life and that's all I need to know.

All best,

Selma

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

No complaint, Frederick.

Only congratulations on your honesty.

Jeanne

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022, 23:28 fredericknoronha2, <frederic...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Mervyn Maciel]

Dear Jeanne,

I have by no means excluded racism, but must assure you that 

I feel NO RESENTMENT whatsoever about my role in colonial Kenya.

That was the status quo then,  and individuals like me, who were members

of the Civil Service could not voice their  opinions however much we felt

for the African cause.

   It may interest you to know that ever since coming to the U.K. over fifty years

ago, I have still kept in touch with many of my African friends in Kenya, and still

do even with some of their children. Many of them have visited me and my wife

at our home here and, an AFRICAN PROVINCIAL COMMISSIONER, on one of

his ttrips to the U.K., made a special point of visiting me and lunching with us.

A couple of Kenya academics have also enjoyed our hospitality here. I

have always got on well with the Africans and am respected by them to this day.

Some years ago, the Kenya High Commissioner in London, agreed to launch

my  very first book at a prominent venue in the city.

  This brief comment from a Review of my first book by an AFRICAN JOURNALIST

speaks for itself...

"Bwana Karani is an excellent personal memoir of Mervyn Maciel's life and

times in Kenya. His book is a "Roots" of sorts, and what a journey it is.

His love and warmth of the people - AFRICAN PEOPLE  cannot be mistaken".

I wonder if these Africans would have bothered to visit or keep in touch if

my service record in Kenya was in any way tainted??

I hope this sets the record straight and am also grateful for Selma's intervention.

Mervyn Maciel

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

And so say all of us!

Xxj

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[Cliff Pereira]

Thank you, Selma. The lives we lead in our "in between" hierarchical worlds are ones we have had to navigate for our own survival, does not matter whether we are talking about Britain, colonial or post-colonial East Africa, the Gulf or in Goa itself. Each of us has had experiences where we have had to make hard choices amid challenges that are beyond our control. It is easy in hindsight for others to post judgement on these actions. 

I am thinking as something as simple as placing my dad in a Care Home as none of us could deal with his dementia. Many in our "East African Goan community" accused me of abandoning my father, others accused my mother, herself in the 80's of not being able to care for her husband. Yet many of these pointing fingers grew-up in East Africa removed from the aging of their own folks in Goa, or were widowed before they reached 60. Easy to point fingers, not so easy to reflect. We do what we have to do. We experience as only we can. But we should have the right to speak from our heart, even though the words may seem at odds in retrospect.

Cliff

---

From: 'Selma Carvalho' via The Goa Book Club <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: October 16, 2022 6:49 AM
To: goa-bo...@googlegroups.com <goa-bo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GOABOOKCLUB] Re: The first Goan in the mainly white Loreto Convent Valley Road

 

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[fredericknoronha2]

Mervyn (Maciel) is a good friend and a nice person too. But that still leaves us open to the possibility of taking sides based on who's involved.

1. Mervyn the word is not RESENTMENT (about the Goan role in colonial East Africa), but perhaps REGRET?

2. Even the Portuguese in Goa (and the Brits in India) had their supporters and allies, does that mean everything was hunky dory?

3. My dad worked for an engineering company in one of the ten most polluted places in the world (Cubatão, in Brazil). I cannot but feel a sense of RESPONSIBILITY for adding to the situation, tempered very little by the fact that those were indeed very tough times of hyperinflation and military coups in Brazil, and we returned with very little. But that doesn't mean that as migrants we didn't contribute negatively.

4. In Nazi Germany too (not that I'm comparing it to East Africa), the argument of many after WWII was that they could not challenge the orders. The Nurenberg Trials nonetheless went ahead for many of the top guns.

5. I don't think Cliff is right in comparing a situation of international migration with the dilemma of caring for one's parent/s, or spouse.

6. This is not a criticism of Mervyn. Had I been in his position (and not in 2022), I might have likely done the very same thing. (Some --- like Pio -- did not, but Fritz managed to survive, Zuzarte was out in a short while. Pio paid a huge price for his honesty and frankness. So did Sita Valles.) But my point is that we need to keep space for more critical evaluations of the impact of Goan migration too. 

FN+

[Jeanne Hromnik]

Thank you, Frederick. That's exactly what I wanted to say. And when I said 'resentment' I meant resentment at having been placed in a situation in which one felt unable to resist.

Btw Zuzarte, by whom I think you mean Joseph Murumbi, opted out. He retired happily among treasures of art in comfortable surroundings in the beautiful climate Nairobi offers.

Jeanne

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[Steve R E Pereira]

This has been an interesting conversation thread. What it has pointed out is that we need sensitivity, nuance but also a clear eyed perspective in the role we as Goans played in the colonial, post colonial and neo colonial enterprise. Neither finger pointing or wilful blindness is helpful. Truth and reconciliation is.

 

 

  

I acknowledge the traditional owners whose lands I live and work and pay my respects and support to their Elders, past, present, and emerging.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

caste distinctions  It is very

Why slam God?

Xxj

 

 

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

Dear Mervyn

There is a saying in E Africa which I hope you will understand: The Indian is evil but his shoes are good.

I take this to mean the Indian trader and the goods he sold.

Best wishes

Jeanne

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

And another saying, this in the South African context: you are moving in the right direction on the wrong road

No gainsaying old wisdom.

xxj

[Eugene Correia]

It seems we are agonising over a book that most of us here haven't read. Whatever the merits and demerits of the book, some of us, especially those with first-hand experiences, can elaborate on it with some knowledge. So, my humble request is for a person like Fred to get the book published, after acquiring the publishing rights, etc.  Such books, for example, those penned by Merwyn and other African-Goans (What a term, reminds me of those days when I heard the saying, Tea Afrikar mure!!).

Eugene 

[Jeanne Hromnik]

Truth and reconciliation has worked to a degree in SA but, ultimately, one has to accept that we cannot shed the burden of the past.

xxj

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[fredericknoronha2]

Why would you suggest another edition of the book when one has just been published?

What has people not reading the book got to do with another edition being published?

FN

[Mervyn Maciel]

Dear Eugene ,

No need to wait for Frederick to publish the book. Cyprian’s excellent review gives you all you need to know about the book and this highly successful Kenya Goan lady.

Mervyn Maciel 

Sent from my iPhone

On 17 Oct 2022, at 18:37, Jeanne Hromnik <jeanne...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Eugene Correia]

I read Maciel the book is available in Berlin (don't remember if that's the place) but I wanted to know if it's possible to get it printed in Goa. If the copies of the book are available in Goa, I wish to know where so that I can get one.

Eugene

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[Eugene Correia]

Yes, it has worked also in Canada. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission published its findings and laid the blame on the Christian Residential Schools. The Pope came and sort of apologized for its past sins, but I faintly remember the Indegenous communities are asking for some retribution, maybe in the form of financial aid. There has been progress in the community but still the indegenous community as a whole hasn't reached a good financial level. I have been to functions on the people hearing songs of their plight and backwardness as well as seen banners saying, This Land is Our Land. It's a take on the Canadian national anthem, O Canada. The title is  O Canada... and the first line is, Our Home and Native Land.

Eugene

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[Gilbert Lawrence]

One can shed the burdens of the past by moving forwards in a positive spirit.

and taking proactive steps to make up for past miss-deeds and deficits like even reverse-discrimination for a limited period of time.  

GL

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[Eugene Correia]

Dear Mervyn,

I am surprised at your suggestion. A review is important, but does it mean I shouldn't get the book? I haven't read Cyprian yet but I will since you suggested. However, I would desire to read the book, and let me know if it's available in UK, as I have someone there. I should have read a review of your book and that would suffice instead of reading the book and knowing about your work. 

Eugene 

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[Eugene Correia]

I found time to read Cyprian's three-part review, though reading the first part I was a bit take aback reading him say that it's not an "in-depth" review. However, since he mentioned Part II and III, I wanted to get a good grasp of his review. Cyprian's review is a good read in the light that he sees Rosa as an exceptional person. He's totally caught flat-footed by the resounding volleys of Rosa, though I don't know if Cyprian played tennis. Obviously, Rosa has made her mark, both at school and later as a barrister and as a member of a top EU body. However, it was great to learn that the book is FREE, and I have ordered a copy.

In passing, thanks Merwyn for driving me post-haste to Cyprian's blog.

Eugene

[fredericknoronha2]

Bad news. I don't think the postage is free :-)

Asked for a quote, and was told something in the region of UKP40 (if I recall correctly). You might be luckier up there in the Norhtern hemisphere.

As they say, there's no such thing as a free meal. Even by way of delivery to Bogmalo.

FN

[fredericknoronha2]

I don't think it's logical to dream up the another edition (so quick after the first was published) just because a handful of readers might want a more competitively-priced book. Or is there some other reason I'm missing?

Secondly, I also don't think the "agonizsng" was about this book in particular (which almost all of us have not read), but rather the wider issue of the role played by Goans in a colonial State. FN

[Jeanne Hromnik]

Postage really is a barrier and makes nonsense even of reasonable pricing.

I've read Mervyn's book for free on the British Museum site and discovered a free pdf sponsored by Frederick on a Goa cultural site.

Is something similar not available for Rosa's book? Why not fly on the wings of e-publishing and publish in Goa, possibly with the addition of some Goa-oriented bonus features and a reasonable price tag?

Mervyn, I'm just as appalled as Eugene by your suggestion, though I admit that a review can play an important role here by putting you off a book and saving you from buying it. (Now that I think of it, you probably meant to direct us to the book via the review.)

Like Eugene, I understood the book to be available only in Berlin.

xxj

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[Mervyn Maciel]

Dear Eugene,

I'm glad you liked Cyprian's review of Rose's(not Rosa's) book.

In fact, Cyprian knew Rose in Nairobi and though I've never met her,

I have been in fairly regular touch with her since reading the book.

I know many characters mentioned in her book including her late

great-grand Uncle,Pascoal D'Mello.

   As Fredrick says, the book is FREE if, like me, you could pick it up from

Berlin. But the postage from Germany is certainly NOT free and this

can work out at quite a tidy sum as Fred has shown!

  Anyway, I hope you manage to get the book by whatever means!

Best wishes.

Mervyn

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[Mervyn Maciel]

Dear Jeanne,

I was glad to hear that you managed to read my first book on, presumably,

the British Empire site and NOT the BritishMuseum site you mention?

Thanks to my friend, Stephen Ludscombe, who manages the British Empire

site, not only my two books , but many of my published articles were also included 

on this site.

   I am also grateful to Frederick for converting my first book into an ebook and also

made available on the internet.

  What I was suggesting to Eugene in my earlier message was, that rather than

having to wait for the book to arrive from Berlin(which could take some time) -

he could at least get a flavour of the book from Cyprian's review.

Surely, nothing to be appalled about??

Mervyn Maciel

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

Dear Mervyn 

I did mean the British Empire site!

Having read Cyprian's review, I'm going to have to spend an appalling amount of time waiting for the book to arrive from Berlin and spend a lot of money on its passage. Hence the need for a paid e-edition, ideally with bonus features.

Rose might be willing to subsidise it!

All best

Jeanne

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[Mervyn Maciel]

Thanks Jeanne.

I understand your frustration over the delay/expense in waiting

for the book.

That said, I wonder if Frederick would be willing to publish it

in Goa assuming Rose has no objection?

Best.

Mervyn

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[Mousinho De Ataide]

Dear Mr. Melvin, a Commission of Enquiry,headed by  High Court Judge, has been appointed to enquire into the land/house grabbing cases in Goa. You may write immediately to to the Commission. It will immediately go into action. With regards. Fr. Mousinho deAtaide

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[Frederick Noronha]

 Do you really believe they are really serious, Fr M? FN

Sender notified by Mailtrack

29/10/22, 03:45:08 pm

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ᐧ

[Mervyn Maciel]

Thank you Fr. Ataide.

Can you send me the address of the Commission please?

Many thanks and best wishes.

Mervyn Maciel

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[Jeanne Hromnik]

What does this have to do with the price of eggs??

Xxj

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