pagans vs non pagans

[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

Philip, bless him, has since the very beginning of the consciousness forum, been urging us to consider the need for a 'great awakening'.

I have put a little thought into this and decided we are all missing something fundamental.

Men and women were designed to be different [this version anyway].

Women were designed to be the ones who bore and looked after children. And all women know that the one thing you have to have as a woman with small children to look after, is prophetic insight. The 'if you do that ..... this will happen'. - 9 times out of 10 it doesn't happen, but women who say this with some intelligence attached to the outburst [as opposed to hysterical panic] usually have healthy and independent children capable of looking after themselves. You can call it the gift of prophecy , foresight, but actually it is a very valuable gift in general, as they can intuitively and through observation get to know the systems of the universe and can act much as the computer models currently predicting climate change can.

Men are designed to be hunters, they have to react in a just-in-time fashion to 'foes' or 'prey'. Neither foes or prey are predictable, as such most of a man's thinking has to be geared to heuristical thinking. Most ball games are geared to honing these skills, action, reaction, action, reaction. But practically no thinking ahead.

And thus by nature most women will be pessimists because they can see what might happen.
And men are eternal optimists, because they never see what might happen and are eternally bemused when it does. [And they would never have gone hunting if they had, because they'd have been out of their mind with fear, thinking of all the possible scenarios.]

Successful business people are nearly always men, or women who have a man's mind. They combine the ruthlessness needed to kill the prey or opposition, with a mind capable of coming up with on the spot heuristic decisions.

And I think you should be able to see that the design that was perfect for the hunter gatherer is a total disaster long term for the planet, all the rest of the species and us.

I will now quote a conversation I recently witnessed between a man and a woman on climate change:

Man: The climate is changing we must think of a solution
Woman: But why is it changing?
Man: Cows, I've been told by the vegetarian society it is because we eat too many cows - beef - so we need to get rid of cows and feed people another way

Woman : What way would that be?
Man Vegetables and we need to increase crop yields, because nutritionists have told me we don't grow enough vegetables to replace the meat

Woman And how do you propose to do that?

Man: Pause ..... genetically modified seed , bigger yields
Woman: But its the same soil, a plant will only yield what the soil can provide. You will simply exhaust the soil, either turn it into desert or your crops will be nutritionally worthless
Man: Pause.............. DON'T BE STUPID woman, we are going to put fertiliser on the soil

Woman: But you have removed the one source of fertiliser - animal dung - by removing the animals, where is this fertiliser going to come from?
Man: Well we'll make it of course, we've got chemists, DON'T BE AN IDIOT WOMAN, making fertiliser is easy

Woman: From what ? [getting tired and exasperated now]
Man: Oil of course....................

and so we could continue. Little boys like computer games of instantaneous killing and jungle like confrontations because that is how they are made. That is why they like Bond movies and all the other 'hero saves the day' films.
I don't have a solution , but I think it does no harm to at least recognise the limitations of humanity, and value women who, without hysteria, are able to point out the failings of a course of action, instead of constantly calling them stupid or censoring them [which is the current approach]

Rosie

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

      Western culture is essentially Augustinian, which has Patriarchal, Prophetic and Apostolic imprimatur. That is unique. It was an awakening of individual consciousness on a massive- Continental- scale. That is unheard of the rest of the world.  Augustine was able to veer the West away from civilized Greco-Roman pagan philosophies and superstitions (Platonic), rather baptize them into the Scriptural mode and logic. Thomas Aquinas did the same with Aristotelian logic. Later on the Augustinian monk Martin Luther only wanted the 16  th. Century ecclesiastical establishment to return to the 3 rd- 4 th Century Churches of local bishops or elders. He was excommunicated. In like manner John Wesley was excommunicated from the Anglican establishment. Very few of the dogmas of 16 th Century existed in Augustine’s days. Augustine explains his transformation purely on a Scriptural basis, modern psychology and philosophies are total strangers to that.      

Philip Benjamin

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[Roland Cichowski]

Rosie,

What a delightful if slightly old fashioned view of things I do hope there are no ardent feminists on the list or you might be in trouble. ;)

ROSIE: Men and women were designed to be different [this version anyway].

ROLAND: Yes well I would agree with that but I think we are meant to be complementary to each other rather than antagonistic or dominant of one another.

ROSIE: Women were designed to be the ones who bore and looked after children. And all women know that the one thing you have to have as a woman with small children to look after, is prophetic insight. The 'if you do that ..... this will happen'. - 9 times out of 10 it doesn't happen, but women who say this with some intelligence attached to the outburst [as opposed to hysterical panic] usually have healthy and independent children capable of looking after themselves. You can call it the gift of prophecy , foresight, but actually it is a very valuable gift in general, as they can intuitively and through observation get to know the systems of the universe and can act much as the computer models currently predicting climate change can.

Men are designed to be hunters, they have to react in a just-in-time fashion to 'foes' or 'prey'. Neither foes or prey are predictable, as such most of a man's thinking has to be geared to heuristical thinking. Most ball games are geared to honing these skills, action, reaction, action, reaction. But practically no thinking ahead.

ROLAND: Now you are pinning me into a role which is as bad as saddling a women with being a good little housekeeper. I detest hunting, instinctively. I detest ball games and competitive sport and do think ahead quite a bit. It’s caused me quite a few problems when growing up. I know I am not alone though.

Designed to be hunters… Hmmm.. There is a lot of evidence that the earliest societies were predominantly matriarchal. My favourite is represented by the snake goddess statuettes of ancient Crete. Judaic society is still fundamentally matriarchal. Fits with the idea of the woman ruling the roost/nest sending out the men to hunt food a more risky business while they might scavenge burdened by children. Men were to a degree were expendable to the family tribe when it came to the crunch.

No I think the change may have come about when the men’s hunting skills had to shift to defence as the world got more crowded. Defense changed to pre-emptive offense often urged on by women protective of their families. Again men were seen as expendable in terms of a family/tribe/nation as things evolved. But in a violent world men needed to get more patriarchal and seek more control and women had to retreat and lost control. Violence is the root of many sins.

In modern societies at least in the west women are reasserting their matriarchal roles to some extent. As they do so men become more lost as individuals. Whether we survive as a society I suspect depends on us being able to evolve co-operative roles. Gender is also not something which is so definite and fixed, which is a complication. You should be aware of the symbol of the Tao with Yin and Yang elements. It well symbolises our situation in a gender sense if you think about it. Most people do not recognise it as a symbol, which turns. Seen like that you can perceive that an advance by Yin eats into the Yang but also enables the Yang to engulf the Yins tail, while the Yin is so absorbed in advancing on the Yang it doesn’t notice the sneak attack from behind. Just overlay male and female on the symbol and you can perceive the process. The ancient Chinese sought stability often expressed as harmony because of this. They may have overlooked that complete harmony leads to stagnation.  The way forward for humanity would seem to be awareness that male complements female and vice versa; along with the fact that Yin and Yang are often represented as holding within them their opposing seed elements.  Let’s not descend into matriarchal or patriarchal societies.

ROSIE: …no harm to at least recognise the limitations of humanity, and value women who, without hysteria, are able to point out the failings of a course of action, instead of constantly calling them stupid or censoring them [which is the current approach]

ROLAND: Well I might take you up on the idea that women are without hysteria given the right frustrating conditions… they are more than capable beings it seems to me. (smile)

and

Philip: Western culture is essentially Augustinian, which has Patriarchal, Prophetic and Apostolic imprimatur.

Roland: who has the right to give that imprimatur/ permission?  That is unique.

PHILIP: It was an awakening of individual consciousness on a massive- Continental- scale… …Augustine was able to veer the West away from civilized Greco-Roman pagan philosophies and superstitions (Platonic), rather baptize them into the Scriptural mode and logic…

ROLAND: so you see pagan society as civilised? Does that mean non pagan societies are not truly civilised and are barbarians? Confusing!

I still do not understand why you accept Augustine and Paul as the seeming basis of your beliefs. Both were pagans and had a pagan mindset you seem to admit that. They were pagans who had mystical experiences. Yet you reject mystical experiences. You seem to think that theirs were somehow unique. I can assure you they were not there is plenty of evidence to support this. What is not generally understood however is the way a human mind accepts and comes to terms with the sometimes explosive enlightenment of a mystical experience. It is most often coloured by their previous development, especially when they come to expound on it. So it is no accident, I think that Augustine is responsible for some pretty bad developments in Christianity. Judging from the lifestyle he led as a pagan. I would even go so far as suggesting that he and Paul thwarted Jesus’s true message because they were in reality dealing with their own problematic issues. In my view anyone who genuinely wants to follow the teachings of Jesus should try to confine themselves to following his teachings and words rather than the words of those who claimed sovereignty over his teachings.

By all means listen to their interpretations but keep in mind they are their interpretations coloured by their experiences. Much of what is in the bible is not the direct words or teachings of Jesus they are the words of those who claimed to follow him. I once made the effort to try and go through the New Testament isolating the statements that claimed to be Jesus words. That’s when I realised there is hardly anything. The majority of the text is made up of Old Testament teachings and in the New Testament are the words, doings and opinions of some of his earlier followers.

There were alternatives in the beginning but the catholic churches (deliberately plural) persecuted and killed them all off.

Somewhere in the bible, I forget where at the moment, Jesus is asked how you can recognise his true followers. His reply was something to the effect that you will recognise them because they will be persecuted in his name. A wise saying if you consider it. It means a catholic who persecutes a protestant is persecuting a true follower of Jesus and the same applies in reverse. Possibly Jesus foresaw these situations and tried to prevent it. But he is sadly ignored on this point. It is even possible to suggest that someone who persecutes a pagan in the name of Jesus is persecuting a possible true follower. What were his other sayings? Love one another. (His only commandment.) And love your enemy as yourself.

Hmm not many professing Christians seem to live up to these teachings. They prefer to follow the teaching of Augustine and Paul and Old Testament prophets. Who guided the church towards dominating, hierarchical, patriarchy and were eventually responsible for the exclusion of women from the priesthood. There is plenty of evidence that in the early days of the church women served as priests, apostles and bishops. Something many present churches would like everyone to forget. I should state I am not anti-Catholic but I do believe the church has lost its way. As the church weakens in the numbers of its male priests it is being faced with the fact that perhaps it really does need women in equal roles.

And who sanctions the teachings of these retrogrades by giving the permission to these Patriarchal, Prophetic and Apostolic personal teachings imprimatur. The church which evolved from them a bit circular don’t you think.

Must go… would still like an answer as to why you follow Augustine and not Jesus. (Tongue in cheek….)

Roland Cichowski.

[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

That's me Roland - old fashioned. And you have applied a judgement of yourself to also judge whether I am right or wrong. Going from the general to the particular - one. The exception proves the rule and you have added a considerable amount, in an attempt to prove I am wrong, that I didn't say. I think it is your turns of phrase
"

but I think we are meant to be complementary to each other rather than antagonistic or dominant of one another"

You don't need the 'but'

The only issue I actually have with Philip's wish, is that it won't work. Man was designed to be a predatory species, like the tiger or lion, weeding out the weak. And now, having more or less eliminated anything worth predating by killing it with chemicals or caging it and then eating it. He has turned on himself and is now predating members of his own species .

And you have no need to say ouch, Roland me dear, ouch was what I intended.

Let us take the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry as a whole and show how it works. The representatives of the pharmaceutical companies sell to doctors and nurses, and the bait used is 'conferences ' or cruises or golfing excursions in delightful places all paid for , and all they have to do to ensure they are not taxed is to attend a few lectures, which tell them what to prescribe, when. So they are prey, but willing prey, because there are others lower down who in turn can be preyed on.
The doctors know it is being paid for ultimately by the patients, because the costs of said excursions have to be allocated somewhere and no investment fund manager is going to tolerate it coming from profits and his clients. So the weakest - the patient - pays.
So in essence the pharmaceutical companies prey on doctors and doctors prey on their patients. And I don't care how many ouches that elicits, I have been in enough nice hotels on holiday, filled with doctors who have told the tax inspector it is work, to know the score. I've even met them on skiing holidays [which we paid for and they didn't].

Men have ceased to kill quite as much in the literal sense, but I've worked with men and they kill in other ways - careers, rival companies, critics. And as I pointed out so do some women who have decided to model themselves on men. The devil wears Prado. The feminists just kill babies - it seems that abortion is the method.

And successful business men or men in politics constantly prey on women - and the evidence for that appears almost every week in the news.

And next we have a sentence which somewhat underlines the very point I was making

"There is a lot of evidence that the earliest societies were predominantly matriarchal. My favourite is represented by the snake goddess statuettes of ancient Crete. Judaic society is still fundamentally matriarchal."

And why is it Roland - why? Because as I pointed out, women think ahead and as long as they apply a dash of logic to the process afterwards and not blow a hooey fit, it works. I fear for Germany after Angela has gone, I really do . I don't know whether you have a sense of humour Roland, it hasn't been tremendously evident in our exchanges, but just in case you do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5WPVLljm1A

Now this phrase well loaded "Now you are pinning me into a role which is as bad as saddling a women with being a good little housekeeper."

Saddling eh? Good little? How very very condescending your language is, there are some women who are truly excellent housekeepers, who budget and organise and manage in a superb way, and their children are well fed and happy, their home is warm and comfortable and their husbands supported . You've managed to use real 'put down' language , belittling an essential role.

And what about this one crikey o riley "scavenge burdened by children". There is every reason to believe that women were the first to have allotments - parcels of land on which they grew things, and I would hardly call going round picking berries 'scavenging'. Your wording is almost incendiary at times 'burdened by children'.
I love children, they are a blessing and a joy, my mother loved us. We weren't a burden, and I know of no Mum who thinks of her children as a 'burden', you apparently do. This is the language of someone who was bundled off to a private school because they were in the way of ambitious parents, or a career mother. The Devil wears Prada.

I won't say anymore. Your comments are a reflection of who you are and it is best you are left to your own jungle, but my earlier comment stays.
I cannot see, given the predatory nature of man, and the fact he is now predating on his own species that there is any solution
rosie

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[Roland Cichowski]

Huh! Rosemary, do you get off on flaming people? (This time the tone is intended). You seem to have a particular ability to turn the things I say into some sort of personal negative attack upon you. One has to wonder if it is some sort of paranoia you are suffering from as you seem to have a penchant for being offended by posts that I intend as being mildly supportive of your views. You are gravely mistaken my love!!! (Again intended) as you condescendingly like to call me a Poppet, I suggest you look up the origins of that word. You are gravely mistaken in the way you have interpreted my words but I doubt if you will ever perceive that.

 You have just about come close though when you say:

Rosie: I think it is your turns of phrase…

Roland: Well yes, could be you have the ability to turn them the wrong way. Sorry that is your problem, it must be a big disadvantage in one who desires to seek the truth. You definitely have an inability to perceive both sides of a statement.

Rosie: That's me Roland - old fashioned.

Roland: There is nothing wrong in being a little old fashioned there is a lot to commend it I would describe myself as such. Your defensive stance seems to suggest that you unconsciously think there is something wrong with it.

When you say:

Rosie: …and you have added a considerable amount, in an attempt to prove I am wrong, that I didn't say.

Roland: Well, amazing! You got that right. Pity you turned it the wrong way again. In fact most of my post had nothing to do with what you said. It was composed of my view on the way things might be from a more male perspective. That does not make it wrong but neither does it make your perspective correct, just because you are a woman.  Yours is obviously a hated male perspective judging from the way that you have chosen to interpret and project it. There is only one paragraph in my post which was directed at your comments. It was this:

ROLAND said: Now you are pinning me into a role which is as bad as saddling a women with being a good little housekeeper. I detest hunting, instinctively. I detest ball games and competitive sport and do think ahead quite a bit. It’s caused me quite a few problems when growing up. I know I am not alone though.

And that was in response to your generalised sexist assertion that all males are (my underlines):

Rosie: Men are designed to be hunters, they have to react in a just-in-time fashion to 'foes' or 'prey'. Neither foes or prey are predictable, as such most of a man's thinking has to be geared to heuristical thinking. Most ball games are geared to honing these skills, action, reaction, action, reaction. But practically no thinking ahead.

Roland: OH! Nasty… but you seem to enjoy being nasty. Rosie it seems it is ok for you to make generalised sexist statements but not ok for me to respond in a like manner. Your comment was a pretty big put down to the male sex I think rosemary and deserving of a response.  If I made any mistake in my wording it was to use the word me. When it is many decent men you are pinning into this role with your sexist assertions. You do a lot of damage promulgating this kind of language which filters down attitudinally to young boys and men. It is likely to create and draw out the very characteristics you are complaining about. All men have mothers and mothers have the biggest effect on their development. And you don’t have a problem here? I think you do, which is why I made the defence. The rest of your comments I dealt with obliquely, which is when I went more thoughtful indicated by: Designed to be hunters… Hmmm…

Roland: Now for this because you are at it again insulting and denigrating one half of your species.

Rosie: Man was designed to be a predatory species, like the tiger or lion, weeding out the weak.

Roland: Wrong, wrong, wrong this is such an outdated and a poor understanding of evolutionary theory. No wonder you have problems. Men and women; (pardon me, ‘Humanity’ not just men) were designed to be social creatures supporting and aiding its own members. Others tagged this warped idea onto Darwin’s theory. It is our sociability that has allowed us to prevail. Not a vicious dog eat dog tendency we would have perished millennia ago if this was the case. It is also this which is likely to have led to the evolution of consciousness especially self-consciousness. When the weaker members of a species are protected and work as a group then even, what are seen as, weakened or older members, are able to contribute in less obvious ways making the group stronger. It is a strength not a weakness. This caring social interaction is what makes the species stronger. It has little to do with its ability to predate when required. It is partly because the majority of minds are now polluted by the above views that you are espousing that only adds to and continues the suffering in the world. It is why we are in so much trouble.  After all if you really believe we are ruthless predators even of our own species then why are you surprised we are behaving in the ways that you are complaining about. As for the ability to predate being a male preserve well. If you believe you are a predator and it is all about survival of the fittest then dam the weak exploit them and get to the top. So what are you complaining about?  You are the victim of your own beliefs you poor woman(intended).  If we really understood the teachings of our spiritual leaders we would care for the sick and starving, poorer members of our species. It is well recognised that we could provide for all if we chose to do so. But thinking we are predators and blaming it on one sex… Well that is pretty pitiful thinking and probably not worthy of you. 

Rosie: And you have no need to say ouch, Roland me dear, ouch was what I intended.

Roland: Oh okay gives me the freedom to fire back so don’t complain about the way I have addressed you and your views in this post it is all intended and you can complain as much as you like. If it’s ok for me to hurt then its ok for you. You reap what you sow…. As the ancient wisdom points out…

Rosie: Let us take the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry as a whole and show how it works.

Roland: Oh here we go again more poison. Let us not take the medical professions and pharmaceutical industries to task… Most doctors and medical professionals I have met are good people who are trying hard to heal and support their fellow human beings. (You get the odd ones who prove the rule as you say you can usually spot them in the private health care systems busy making money) They may fall prey to the machinations of our capitalist system all based upon and justified by the views of predation and survival of the fittest that you appear to hold. Not all of us are strong and perfect like you. I think it is wrong and poisonous to belittle their efforts and make them the objects of derision and blame for the way we have evolved our societies. Give them a break and stop spreading poison. You are, even if you don’t know it, a hatcher of conspiracy theories.

Rosie: Men have ceased to kill quite as much in the literal sense, but I've worked with men and they kill in other ways - careers, rival companies, critics.

Roland: And I’ve worked mainly with a majority of women and I can assure you they kill too and spread mayhem in organisations and usually behind the scenes they are mostly not the weak and loving creatures that you like to depict them as. You yourself seem to be proof of this. They can be ruthless and mean especially towards members of their own sex. Not for nothing did the phrase henpecked come into existence it was derived from observations of how female chickens establish a pecking order the poor hen at the bottom often getting pecked to death. Human females can display similar behaviour I have witnessed it. History often bears this out many of society’s problems, when you examine the source of them come down to women ruthlessly protecting their families. Aligning themselves with what they think are powerful men or often creating them and then often using their own sons to maintain their families status quo. The fair sex (this time meant to annoy) are certainly not angels by any means. Some of you and you appear to be one of them just like to kid yourselves that this is not the situation. Why stand out in front and take the bullets when you can often persuade a man to do so. Who gave out the most white feathers in wartime I venture more women than men. The most successful women don’t need to emulate men they just learn to manipulate them. Poor sods.

Rosie: And as I pointed out so do some women who have decided to model themselves on men. The devil wears Prado.

Roland: Women model themselves on other women in a competitive way just ask the advertising agencies; appealing to men is only secondary. The real game is to beat the other women by being more attractive. Whatever that is, physical beauty can hide the ugliest minds. But men driven by testosterone often don’t realise this and fall into the spider’s web. Yes I am intending to hurt. How about a video on the symbolism of the spider’s web, where the female devours its male suitor, where did this symbolism come from? Could it be a warning to males about the seductive but very dangerous appeal of some women? Its ugly but it is a very real warning to any male driven by desire.

Rosie: The feminists just kill babies - it seems that abortion is the method.

Roland: And feminists aren’t women? You sound like you are in danger of recognising the truth about the fair sex (yep intended) and are you really saying women should not have control of their own bodies? Most women think the fathers have no say in the matter despite it is their children they abort and desire and love. Thorny issues indeed but not as simple as you seem to be suggesting and therefore a poor example to bring up.

Rosie: And next we have a sentence which somewhat underlines the very point I was making

Roland: Oh could you have actually seen beyond your own spleen for a moment and picked up that I might be agreeing with you! Perish the thought you might have to be nice to me…. I’m guessing you didn’t continue to the end of the post where I addressed Philips Augustine patriarchal attitudes towards women. You might have wondered even more and not jumped to your mistaken conclusions.

Roland said: "There is a lot of evidence that the earliest societies were predominantly matriarchal. My favourite is represented by the snake goddess statuettes of ancient Crete. Judaic society is still fundamentally matriarchal."

Rosie: And why is it Roland - why? Because as I pointed out, women think ahead and

Roland: And men don’t pretty insulting of you? That is why it needs to be pointed out to you. You are spreading false memes. There will always be a few who you can use to justify a meme. As you like to point out when it suits you the exception proves the rule. Except I am not that exceptional there are plenty of decent men out there. Well they start out decent until they meet the feme fatale with their webs. Then the hurt turns them. Who is to blame for that? Ignorant women or perhaps is it women who have also been damaged? And that is your only lifeline I’ve just thrown you.

Rosie: as long as they apply a dash of logic to the process afterwards and not blow a hooey fit, it works.

Roland: And that is the problem they often don’t. Glad you recognise it. You have just done it( thrown a hooey) by responding in the way you have.

Rosie: I fear for Germany after Angela has gone, I really do .

Roland: Not sure why you would use this example. I have a lot of respect for Merkal, however; I think she did not act wisely when she let a flood of refugees into Germany in an unorganised manner and then encouraging them to go elsewhere in Europe. Those actions probably contributed too many people in the Uk voting to leave the European union, a big disaster for Europe and democracy as a whole. But then hey! who can blame them when you have a situation where one woman can emotionally take an action without consulting other countries. Who then have to deal with the results of her actions?  A Europe with open internal borders needs to consult each other on issues concerning its external borders. Something Merkal forgot to do or did she? Perhaps not the perfection you like to idolise.

Rosie: I don't know whether you have a sense of humour…

Roland:  I don’t think you would get my humour Rosie. Would not dare to try it too much I have enough problems sparking your vitriol as it is.

Rosie: Your wording is almost incendiary at times 'burdened by children'.

Roland: If that is how you chose to see it I might have been hoping that you might be able to see that many men are burdened by the responsibility of supporting children and now the law can enforce it even if they have been cuckolded. If men or women find themselves in a position where they are struggling to support their children the issue obviously becomes a burden doesn’t mean they do not love them there struggles often shows how much they do. You must have been brought up in a privileged family not to have had the opportunity to observe the pain of others.

Rosie: I love children, they are a blessing and a joy, my mother loved us. We weren't a burden, and I know of no Mum who thinks of her children as a 'burden', you apparently do. This is the language of someone who was bundled off to a private school because they were in the way of ambitious parents, or a career mother. The Devil wears Prada.

Roland: Again: The presumption is that as a man I don’t love children many men devote their lives to them with little reward. And if the reference to a private school is a personal dig at me you have again misjudged my previous words. I was never privileged to go to a private school; I have never said that so you have hoisted that meaning onto my words. Not surprising really as you seem to be good at that. If you must know I had a loving and very strong mother and you are hearing the strength of her genes speaking in this post. Most of the time I manage to keep them under control. She would never tolerate the spiteful comments you seem to enjoy dishing out as I have often done.

Rosie: I won't say anymore. Your comments are a reflection of who you are and it is best you are left to your own jungle, but my earlier comment stays.

Roland: And your vitriol is a good reflection of what you are. Pity you do not seem aware of its damaging effects to those around you. I know what I am the question is do you? At least I am looking down from the canopy in the light you appear to be down there in a tangle of dark undergrowth of your own making.

Rosie: I cannot see, given the predatory nature of man, and the fact he is now predating on his own species that there is any solution.

Roland: Again He! I.e. No woman partakes of the same meal! Not surprised you can’t help making the same error perhaps it is not an error to you perhaps you really mean it, from your perspective down there in the undergrowth. It is you who are lost in a jungle largely of your own making. We are not only predators we are capable of much more. It is not the predatory nature of man but the predatory nature of humanity both male and female. It is not our primary nature. It is an aspect of our nature that is encouraged by the attitude of the survival of the fittest an attitude that you seem to use and enjoy. It’s a problem you profess to see it in men but not in females. Lost in your ignorant jungle you are. Humanity both male and female is going through a difficult stage in its evolution in these times. It is partly caused by no more room in the petri dish. If you cannot recognise your own needs to predate and use the ability then that’s a problem we all share in. don’t turn on your partners.  

And a disclaimer much of the views I have expressed above I do not hold in their extreme form, I recognise the traits on both sides of the sexual divide. I seek to evolve above them. They are a set of observations on the way we as males and females can perceive our world. I have chosen to express them in a way that can combat the dangerous ways you express yours. And this because you are particularly one sided in your approach and in some ways dangerous.  I have expressed them in this way in the hope that perhaps this time you will get the message. Don’t suppose it will do much good though.

Roland.

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

Without you even realising it you have paid me the biggest compliment you possibly could have. I am dangerous. So it is unlikely I will be preyed on . This is a big relief, though of course you may be wrong....................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31BsNMMblg&t=1s

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To: "'Rosemary Rock-Evans' via Consciousness-Online" <general...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 3 Mar, 21 At 04:09
Subject: Re: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

Please explain this statement Roland

"If you cannot recognise your own needs to predate and use the ability then that’s a problem we all share in. don’t turn on your partners."

???????

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

Sometimes it is better to pretend to be a fox, so that one doesn't become a goose

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[Roland Cichowski]

Only the meek shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

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[Roland Cichowski]

This is à problem. Try watching your own wolf video. No good paying lip service to things. PARTNER=PACK.

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[Roland Cichowski]

Foxes clear the hen house not for food but fun.... Geese work together as a flock make good sentries / alarms. You probably do fit the mischievous dangerous fox model. Sadly.

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

I don't know where you got that idea from

Matthew 21:12-17 Jesus Cleanses the Temple

¹² And Jesus entered the temple^a]">[a] and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. ¹³ He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

What pack would that be then?

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noLHkjXwzlk

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

The Atharvaveda

XII 1 Hymn to goddess Earth Part 3

Thy snowy mountain heights, and thy forests, O Earth, may they be kind to us.
The brown, the black, the red, the multi-coloured, the firm Earth, that is protected by lndra, I have settled upon,
I shall not destroy
I shall not harm
I shall not wound.

lnto thy middle set us, O Earth, and into thy navel,
into the nourishing strength that has grown up from thy body; may we purify ourselves for you.
The Earth is the Mother, and I the Son of the Earth;
Paro-anya is the Father;
May he, too, save us

The Earth upon which the holy men place the altar,
upon which they, devoted to all holy works, unfold their sacrifice,
upon which are to be found the twin pillars, the sacrificial posts, erect and brilliant,
that Earth shall help us prosper, and we shall help Her thrive

Him that hates us, o Earth, him that battles against us,
him that is hostile towards us with his mind and his weapons,
may we fight together to overcome him
together we shall anticipate his actions by our deeds

Mortals born of thee live on Thee,
thou supportest both bipeds and quadrupeds.
To thee, O Earth, belong the five races of men, the mortals, upon whom the rising sun
sheds undying light with his rays.

These creatures all together shall yield milk for You

O Earth, may you give us the honey of wise words

Upon the firm, broad Earth,
the all-begetting Mother of the plants,
that is supported by divine law,
upon her, propitious and kind,
may we ever pass our lives.

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[Roland Cichowski]

ME.

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[Roland Cichowski]

YOU CHOSE...

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[Roland Cichowski]

Really Rosie, I’m aware of the symbolism. Sometimes I wonder if you really divine the deeper meanings. Symbols often have layer upon layer of meanings you know. It is hard to work out why sometimes you do not perceive the deeper implications….

Your own words: But the very nature of the shamanic powers the [Moa??] geese have traveling between the dark and the light. Made them a [target??] for the jealous the frightened and the religious and not just the fanatically religious often just the religious… …until eventually mother geese were renamed witches and demonised…

…shows a goose pictured in the jaws of a fox. The symbolic fox being the wiley old theologian being appointed to seek out them all…

… every last healer or myth teller or keeper of secrets or out of body flyer has been killed… …or just quietly murdered.

So, why would you even temporarily take on the persona of the fox? Unless you are the wiley old theologian and you are still seeking them out. Jiggling your web… Surely you would not risk being that.

And every last one killed? Somehow I doubt that and what about the Ganders the wizards perhaps more than a few of them escaped. You probably won’t like that idea. (Taunting Joke)

Roland

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[Roland Cichowski]

 

I presume the important bit in this is: (I have underlined and emboldened words which I believe, need more thoughtfulness applied to them: given your tendency to denigrate and blame the male half of humanity. These words may sway your thinking. I am not sure if it is because they were poorly translated or if the writers were less conscious of their choice and impact in those times or perhaps they just thought in a culturally different way to us) anyway please try to resist flying off the handle and having a hissy fit: none of this is meant to offend you. Take a positive view of it. Please.

The Earth upon which the holy men place the altar,
upon which they, devoted to all holy works, unfold their sacrifice,
upon which are to be found the twin pillars, the sacrificial posts, erect and brilliant,
that Earth shall help us prosper, and we shall help Her thrive

Him that hates us, o Earth, him that battles against us,
him that is hostile towards us with his mind and his weapons,
may we fight together to overcome him
together we shall anticipate his actions by our deeds

Well your deeds seem to need a lot of explaining as a wiley old fox. You seem to think it is permissible to pretend to take on a persona and then really still be a good goose/person. You are ignoring the spiritual damage you do as a fox in one of your intemperate moods.

I do understand that you have a devout feeling for nature and desire to defend her but to me your methods are often misguided. There are definitely darker forces which interact in what I call reality. They are present manifesting in the natural world as well as in human beings male and female. The worst thing is that it may be that we cannot do without them but perhaps we can control them.

This is a very complex subject and at the risk of you belittling my personal experiences again I think it might be of benefit relating this to you, just because it is a quick way to illustrate the problem if you can perceive it.

As a child I was told constantly I had a guardian angel. Only problem was that I could not see them or hear them. So, as a child taking this stuff for granted I got quite concerned that I did not have a guardian angel like everyone else.

So, I picked my favourite nun and confided in her that I was worried that I didn’t have one (never occurred to me to ask the priest… should please you) she initially brushed me off with don’t be silly everybody has one.

That only made my concerns worse so I persisted.

Eventually seeing I was really troubled and disturbed by the issue she took me aside and told me. You have thoughts don’t you. I said, “Yes”. Then she said, “Well the good thoughts are put there by your guardian angel”. But then she went on to explain that we also all have bad angels and described it as: the bad angel sits on your left shoulder whispering in your left ear the good angel sits on your right whispering good things. You and I sit in the middle and have to decide which one we should listen to. The devil is always trying to capture your soul by tricking you into doing bad things (so you are never the fox or the goose in reality they represent what perspective you have chosen to manifest as when you take an action) You/your soul, are the decider of which course of action you should follow and you have been given the free will to do so and a conscience to trouble you if you are beguiled into taking an action inspired by the bad/dark angel. (The bad angel of course represents the devil.) If you can be beguiled into taking enough bad actions then your soul is his, doomed to hell.

Then she threw in a warning. The bad angel is very tricky and he often disguises his advice as good advice or in such a way that you feel you are doing good by following it. Even when in your heart of hearts something is making you uneasy about it. This is your conscience troubling you about it.

As I grew older and watched all the machinations and poor examples amongst those who professed to be teachers of the faith I became an atheist and started following a more scientific approach to things.

However, what she told me had the effect of organising my thoughts in a particular way and a very useful way to. It took me many years to recognise what I owed to that old nun she was certainly wiser than most. Perhaps the reason I sought her out.

So when you take up arms, so to speak, in defence of Mother Nature you should be careful of how you do it.

For example, when you told me in a pretty charged way my doctors are killing me and to stop taking their drugs etc. (by the way my specialist is a woman and a very wise one to who leaves most doctors I've met in the dust) Do you ever stop to wonder the effect that might have if I took your advice and refused their help and as a result died prematurely? Would your conscience not trouble you just a little bit? What if you discovered further down the track that your view of such medicines was faulty or mistaken in some way? Would it bother you that you had been the cause of my not taking treatment? You meant well but you would have taken a very bad course of action (at least from my point of view) in the belief that you were doing good.

So, things are not that simple not that they ever are. And I am not so foolish as to believe I have all the answers or that I always make the right choice. In the end no one can make the right choice but us and therefore we are responsible for the actions we take. I am not even sure I should be saying this stuff to you. There is always the possibility that you could be right. or even use it in the wrong way. However, some of your stuff I try to point out to you in the gentlest way may, may be a bit misguided or need reconsideration.

Your ability to think you can adopt an aggressive or bad persona to presumably achieve what you perceive as a positive outcome is worrying. Can a leopard truly change its spots? As a fox you may have killed many a goose. But presumably you have done so believing you have done good and this despite the fact you can perceive the goose represents a good female energy.

If you are sure about yourself and what you preach it is far from me to make you change, that is impossible and I do not desire the responsibility. I only seek to see if you have some good answers or explanations so I can learn from you. As I said, we all make our own choices, no one else does. What is good and what is bad is still an area I am researching (so to speak) it is tremendously complex I can perceive the problems but doesn’t mean I can be sure I make the right choices or that you always do.

Roland.

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

I have never given you advice Roland on anything. I have no idea who you are. The comments I made were general. Your name was never mentionned.
I pointed people to the eHealthme.com site and all the drug effects. Stated that I had added up hallucinations in order to get a total by class of drug and also totalled up the deaths. My site is about spiritual experiences. An hallucination is a spiritual experience, so is death.
Furthermore all the comments about hunters and gatherers were general. And my worry was addressed to Philip, not you.

And if you are an atheist I do not even understand why you are on the forum.

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

So you are an atheist who knows mystic symbolism?
How?

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

Chose what?
I 'chose' Serge, because he is honest and helpful, wise and talented, fair minded and supportive and delivers what he says he will deliver
I 'chose' my loyal supportive husband of 45 years, David, whom I love dearly [perhaps more correctly he chose me]
I 'chose' my sister in law Suzy, of whom I am very fond, because she is supportive and kind and a 'wise old bear' and comes back with extremely helpful comments.
And I 'chose' a whole load of people who are not on FB, or on this forum, with whom I communicate face to face, because they are my friends.

And I can assure you I have never 'turned on ' any of them.

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

I know you are an atheist Roland , but even children know that 'the meek shall inherit the Earth'

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[Roland Cichowski]

Sorry Rosie, you had me doubting myself there. I had to check my records. In a post entitled Re: [Consciousness-Online] polysorbate 80 dated 19/02/2021 you wrote to me:

“They are killing you Roland - stay away from them, these 'doctors'. This is snake oil therapy. Anti-histamines , hydrocortisone, so called steroids…”

You did address it to Roland..as you can see. Don’t worry I didn’t take it seriously but I could easily have and I recognise that you said those words in response to the information I gave you. And that your intentions were good. It illustrates my point about these things you do something intending to do good the results can sometimes be not what you would have intended. My motive there if I recall correctly was because you had just had the covid jab and a very bad reaction I think I was trying to reassure you. Probably did not succeed… you flamed me earlier.

Below is a copy of the part of the post in question. So you can see the context in which you wrote it.

Rosie wrote: Now for your next comment poppet
Roland wrote: As a result I have been given large doses of hydrocortisone and antihistamines to control the reactions many times now and I am not too happy about the hydrocortisone it is definitely not inert in its effects. Even doctors will limit its use in certain situations. I am realising it may be causing its own side effects."

Rosie wrote: They are killing you Roland - stay away from them, these 'doctors'. This is snake oil therapy. Anti-histamines , hydrocortisone, so called steroids - are immunosuppressants. So on the one hand they are giving you medication provoking severe allergic reactions, and then they suppress the immune system to make it appear everything is alright.

Roland: ironically I can see some sense in the last sentence you wrote. However I believe it is a bit of a balancing act the risk is hopefully worth taking.

All the best Roland.

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[Roland Cichowski]

Dear Rosie I forgot your last question sorry:

Rosie: And if you are an atheist I do not even understand why you are on the forum.

Roland: I meant I was an atheist not that I am now.

Any way I did not realise atheists could not investigate/try to explain consciousness. Actually I have been on the list a very long time but not involved for a while. Serge remembers me but I was present way back when it was JCS even before Serge. In those days there were not so many spiritually inclined members that does not seem to be the case now.

Roland.

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[Roland Cichowski]

As I said I’m not an atheist and I know something about mystic symbolism possibly because I would be called a mystic by some. (if I have to get a label.)  Although I don’t like the negative connotations many people connect with the word, I’m not a wizard into spells or anything like that, so I normally avoid the name. More properly I would be what is described in the literature as a nature mystic. It is the natural world which seems to affect me and that I learn from. Not religions or anything like that. But hey religions seem to derive their inspiration from mysticism when you get to the bottom of them they are usually saying the same thing in different ways.

Science was an attraction at school because I wanted even then to know what consciousness was. I was told it didn’t exist. So I couldn’t study it. It was the age of the behaviourists then. So I went off on my own searching… the title of your site attracted me before I noticed your appearance on the list.

So, now you know a little about me. I've been at it, studying, a long time. 😉

All the best Roland

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

well Roland, I can only say I am glad you are still here, a miracle indeed.
This is the web address of the site to go to if you need specific data - it is the one I used and use, as it is based on ADRs from doctors themselves https://www.ehealthme.com/.

And remembering I have no idea what is wrong with you, or which drug you are on and taking a drug in this class at random -
https://www.ehealthme.com/drug/prednisone/

These are the results you can expect. If you look at the side effects this will tell you the real world side effects
https://www.ehealthme.com/drug/prednisone/side-effects/

then to get the results for my hallucination numbers I went here [there are more categories now but it gives you an idea
https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/prednisone/hallucination/

and to get the death figures I went here
https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/prednisone/death/

though again they 've added some more types of death [!! sudden death, unexplained death which complicates things].

There is an out of date list of the deaths from anti-histamines on our web site. As the point of the site is to show this possibility exists and no more, we haven't bothered to up date it. The eHealthme site should be referenced to get the up-to-date figures for the specific drug anyone is on.
https://allaboutheaven.org/science/antihistamine-deaths/121

this is the one for the immunosuppressants, also out of date, but indicative
https://allaboutheaven.org/science/immunosuppressants-deaths-and-adrs/121

There are two videos on youtube about immunocompromised patients and vaccination, I leave it to you to judge whether you consider them worth watching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoU04k5vKZ4 and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZopTydMQ8rM

the comments are worth reading

rosie

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[Roland Cichowski]

Thanks Rosie that is very nice of you. New you were a goose really..☺️ Roland

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[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

      References below clearly show that the Western Acade-Media Pagan (ism)-- the WAMP--  recognizes the inadequacy of Science as a referent for life-issues. Questions of causality, aseity, origin, meaning, morality, consciousness, eschaton (after-life) are beyond the domain of science. However crooked politicians still intimidate the populace by their vicious but moronic and ill-informed pro-science stance and claims. They are ignorant of the fact that the goddess of Science is finite, incomplete, imperfect and imprecise, especially for biological sciences. The science and scientists on COVID-19 are the latest example, including its origin and spread.

      Atharvaveda Hymn to goddess Earth (quoted below) points to the Gaia in pagan (pan-gaia-n)—the eternal Mother Earth goddess. This was common to all religions including Greco-Roman polytheism until the West took a 180-degree turn with the erudite and civilized pagan Augustine’s instant transformation and baptizing Platonism subsequently into Scriptural norms of the Patriarchs, Prophets and the Apostles  (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine). Augustine built on the foundation which Rabbi Saul of Tarsus laid at the Athenian Mars Hill (Acts 17). The  division of the global civilizations into pagan and non-pagan was never sharper anywhere than in the Augustinian West. That is no more true. WAMP-the-Ingrate as a stealing beneficiary of the Augustinian Trust is a very general multifaceted term for persons with un-awakened consciousness.

         WAMP-the-atheist. Total disregard for questions of causality, aseity, origin, meaning, morality, eschaton etc.

          WAMP-the-tyrant . Dissenters are subjected to expulsion or threats thereof, especially over evolution qua trans-

                      Speciation or anthropic climate change or sex-gender issues or freedom of conscience. 

           WAMP-the-Socialist. Subtle legal strategies to transform society back into paganism through the ruses social  

                      justice, liberation theology etc.   

            WAMP-the-Fascist. Collusion with corrupt businesses to control politics, elections, governance etc. 

             WAMP-the-Marxist/ Prgressive. Authoritarian and utopian schemes to overthrow an Augustinian ethos or any

                      settled social  order. Hatred particularly for anything non-pagan, related to Adonai (plural) YHWH  

                      (singular) Elohim (uni-plural).  

             WAMP-the-anarchist. Gaining power through corrupt pagan politicians with kundalini/reptilian consciousnesses    

                      by street violence, burnings, threats, intimidations etc.    

            WAMP-the-globalist. No territorial integrity or national boundaries or patriotic loyalties or cultural heritages.

Philip Benjamin 

 

     Notes: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/jonah-goldberg-the-problem-with-following-the-science/

https://tribunecontentagency.com/article/jonah-goldberg-the-problem-with-following-the-science/

Jonah Goldberg: The problem with following the science. Editor-in-chief of The Dispatch 3/5/2021 Tribune Content Agency @JonahDispatch

Jonah Goldberg, Tribune Content Agency  

   “First, as with God, it’s sometimes difficult to know what science says. This isn’t meant as an anti-science talking point. Science is good. Science is real. But science doesn’t speak on every issue with a booming voice that clears all doubts like a thunderclap scattering pigeons. Sometimes scientists — the high priests charged with telling us what science says — disagree with each other. (Priests also have their disagreements. You can look it up.)”

The Atharvaveda XII 1 Hymn to goddess Earth Part 3 concludes:

O Earth, may you give us the honey of wise words Upon the firm, broad Earth, the all-begetting Mother of the plants, that is supported by divine law, upon her, propitious and kind, may we ever pass our lives.

 

 

From: general...@googlegroups.com <general...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Roland Cichowski
Sent: Friday, March 5, 2021 7:08 AM
To: 'Rosemary Rock-Evans' via Consciousness-Online <general...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

 

As I said I’m not an atheist and I know something about mystic symbolism possibly because I would be called a mystic by some. (if I have to get a label.)  Although I don’t like the negative connotations many people connect with the word, I’m not a wizard into spells or anything like that, so I normally avoid the name. More properly I would be what is described in the literature as a nature mystic. It is the natural world which seems to affect me and that I learn from. Not religions or anything like that. But hey religions seem to derive their inspiration from mysticism when you get to the bottom of them they are usually saying the same thing in different ways.

[Philip Benjamin]

[Roland Cichowski]

“ Hi Philip, That was a very enlightening post because I could understand where you are coming from possibly for the first time. All because you have defined WAMP as:  ……….    because when I have tried to trace issues that I have with some aspects of Christianity many of them start turning up references to Augustine. Because of this I have viewed Augustine’s influence as a problem even a hindrance. I am hoping you can tell me why I may be misguided”.

[Philip Benjamin]

      Augustine or any aspect of Western History other than Inquisition (actually an Ecclesiastical establishment response to the Talmud’s reference to Mary as a whore etc..), Crusades (an effort by Western rulers to regain what was lost to Jihadist plunder and slaughter), Slavery (though British Empire was the first in human history to ban Slave Trade by law, thanks to the life-long efforts of the Puritan MP, William Wilberforce,  followed by US Emancipation about 6 decades later), Chauvinism (despite the fact of the Western Europe and/or America being the pioneers of women’s suffrage, Child Labor Laws; abolition of Sati in India; Foot Bending in China; Cannibalism in Hawaii and many parts of the globe  etc.). No freshman classes today know anything about any of these (and many more such as schools, hospitals, democratic institutions so on and so forth), because these are all forbidden by the tyrannical “Church State Separation” presumptions, since Western history is essentially Church History. Reformation history is of Augustinian origin, be it German or English or Bohemian or Welsh or Sottish or Irish, or American. America is the result of Two Great Awakenings in the Colonies each one with its own Denominational Charter from Roman Catholicism (Maryland) to the Baptists (Rhode Island)-- not in any way the product of Tao or Talmud or TM or occultism or Jungian sorcery or Freudian follies or New Age mysticism).

    Pagan (earthling) or heathen (foreign) have Biblical connotations which have enriched the English language, customs and ethos. An awakening of the “inner man” in the Augustinian or Reformation or Jonathan Edwardian sense is extrinsically caused by the Word and Spirit of Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural). It traces back from Revelation 14: 6 to Genesis 3:15 (protoevangelium) and is centered on the free-will acceptance of a cancellation of  the universal Death Sentence by the vicarious death and resurrection of the Sentencer (YHWH, Isaiah 53, Romans 5).      

These are things pooh-poohed by the WAMP and thus unknown to the campuses.  

Philip Benjamin               

               

 

From: Roland Cichowski <rola...@gmail.com>  Saturday, March 6, 2021 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

 

[Philip Benjamin]

Hi Philip,

That was a very enlightening post because I could understand where you are coming from possibly for the first time. All because you have defined WAMP as

Philip: WAMP-the-Ingrate… … is a very general multifaceted term for persons with un-awakened consciousness.

Roland: I do wish you would stop using that term if someone reading it is not clear by what you mean by it, it is so confusing not to mention it seems to give an aggressive, intolerant possibly conspiracy theory, tone to your posts. Bear with me if I illustrate a bit by changing the words of part of your post to illustrate what I mean. My changes are in black and underlined to make it obvious. Starting with:

Philip:      References below clearly show that an un-awakened consciousness does not recognize the inadequacy of Science as a referent for life-issues. Questions of causality, aseity, origin, meaning, morality, consciousness, eschaton (after-life) are beyond the domain of science….

Roland: I can now see that I would likely agree with you, perhaps with a few provisos and I might have put some of it in a different way. When I get to your list it is transformed by this definition. I will try to keep it in mind in future when reading your posts. I can now read your list like this.

The  un-awakened consciousness as -atheist. Total disregard for questions of causality, aseity, origin, meaning, morality, eschaton etc.

The un-awakened consciousness as - tyrant . Dissenters are subjected to expulsion or threats thereof, especially over evolution qua trans- Speciation or anthropic climate change or sex-gender issues or freedom of conscience. 

The un-awakened consciousness as -socialist. Subtle legal strategies to transform society back into paganism through the ruses social justice, liberation theology etc.   

The un-awakened consciousness as -Fascist. Collusion with corrupt businesses to control politics, elections, governance etc. 

And so on ending with:

        The un-awakened consciousness as -globalist. No territorial integrity or national boundaries or patriotic loyalties or cultural heritages.

By inserting this definition I can now clearly see where you are coming from. I am not sure what an un-awakened consciousness is to you but I would have difficult defining it also. More importantly, perhaps, what is an awakened consciousness?

Obviously from your posts it is something to do with Augustine’s awakening. Can I plead that instead of just putting a link to Augustine you try and tell me what was it about Augustine’s  revelation and writings that so impresses you and makes you regard it as some sort of dividing point from what you call pagan to I presume what you are calling Western Christianity possible of the Catholic variety.

I would like to know because when I have tried to trace issues that I have with some aspects of Christianity many of them start turning up references to Augustine. Because of this I have viewed Augustine’s influence as a problem even a hindrance. I am hoping you can tell me why I may be misguided.

Please bear in mind I do not have time at this stage of my life to become involved in a complete study of Augustine’s teachings and writings. So, why, what was it that was so significant to you about his revelation? It has to be more than he heard a child singing picked up a bible and read a particular verse. This can be put down to what Jung would describe as a synchronistic occurrence. (I know you don’t like Jung but it is an explanation that is valid).

You must see Augustine as awakened by his revelation but the question is why!

Roland.

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[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

     Hi, Roland: Most of academia and the media are Bible illiterates and haters; so are the products or victims of these institutions (myself included, but got out of it at an unnecessary cost!). The points raised here are thus reasonable for any product of these institutions. I regret I will not be able to reply all of them all at once, but will slowly catch up as time and physical health permit.

Philip Benjamin

 

From: Roland Cichowski <rolandshh@ >   medin...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

 

Hi Philip sorry for the delay in replying.

I still feel somewhat in the dark and a little confused.

 When you say:

Augustine or any aspect of Western History other than Inquisition (actually an Ecclesiastical establishment response to the Talmud’s reference to Mary as a whore etc..), Crusades (an effort by Western rulers to regain what was lost to Jihadist plunder and slaughter),

I am confused you seem to excuse these two episodes as un-Augustinian. Even if I accept that you then go on with a list of events that I would probably agree are a benefit conferred mostly by the general trend of western civilisation along with a few hiccups. Notably the west getting dragged into the slave trade by darker un-awakened forces but eventually it has mostly been overcome by the awakened forces.

Philip: Slavery (though British Empire was the first in human history to ban Slave…   …since Western history is essentially Church History. Reformation history is of Augustinian origin, be it German or English or Bohemian or Welsh or Sottish or Irish, or American. America is the result of…

Roland: So, Okay until you get to this part.

Philip: …Two Great Awakenings in the Colonies each one with its own Denominational Charter from Roman Catholicism (Maryland) to the Baptists (Rhode Island)—

Roland: What two great awakenings? Again you have not really described what the word means to you. Are all Catholics and baptists in this awakened state? I get the sense you are trying to claim all the good things are a result of these awakenings but you never seem to be able to describe exactly what the awakening is. Obviously these awakenings occurred in the colonies presumably in America one catholic the other protestant. This seems odd and contradictory in itself. Catholics claim Baptists to be heretics and Baptists well they don’t speak well of Catholics and made an effort to break free of their persecution by emigrating to the Americas. Yet you seem to be describing them both as awakened. Don’t get it sorry.

Philip: not in any way the product of Tao or Talmud or TM or occultism or Jungian sorcery or Freudian follies or New Age mysticism). Pagan (earthling) or heathen (foreign)

Roland: What is this Pagan equates with earthling stuff? What on earth (excuse pun) is an earthling other than any human being that lives on the earth and Heathen equates to foreign, foreign to what?

This is one of the problems I have with understanding you. You never explain your terms just drop them in and hope everyone gets it. Perhaps they do and I am just thick. (don't answer that)

Philip: …have Biblical connotations which have enriched the English language, customs and ethos.

Roland: Condescending of you, presumably you see these contributions by pagan and heathens as positive, seems like you are trying to have it both ways here.

Philip: An awakening of the “inner man” in the Augustinian or Reformation or Jonathan Edwardian sense…

Roland: Okay but you still don’t say what the awakening is.

Philip: …is extrinsically caused by the Word and Spirit of Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural).

Roland: Presumably you mean it’s caused by god. So we can do nothing to become awakened? Whatever the state is we just have to wait until it is bestowed upon us.

Philip: It traces back from Revelation 14: 6 to Genesis 3:15 (protoevangelium) and is centered on the free-will acceptance of a cancellation of the universal Death Sentence by the vicarious death and resurrection of the Sentencer

Roland: Are you saying here that God is the sentencer and he then sends his son (an aspect of himself if you believe in the trinity) to cancel that death sentence providing you accept by an act of faith (free will)  that his son/he dying on your behalf lets you off the hook? So, he takes with one hand and gives back with the other? This does not make much sense to me.

I have difficulties with this not least because it makes god some sort of tyrannical being that is responsible for us dying and then puts his own son through the experience of dying in a cruel way so that he can give us the chance of not dying and becoming immortal. And should I point out here the other tree, the other tree in the garden, which bequeaths immortality? It is the reason god threw us out of the garden in the first place. It actually says this in the bibles I’ve read.

So what kind of a god is it that throws us out of paradise where presumably we are immortal or at least ignorant of the fact that he (god) has set it up so we do die? He obviously does not want us to be immortal otherwise he would not have thrown us out.

You could look at it as that he needs us to come to the conclusion that he is the boss. If you don’t agree with him you die if you do you are immortal. Well it is obvious to me that this is by threat and bullying. It is coercion of the worst kind, which makes it very difficult if not impossible for anyone to have faith. In this kind of a situation you would be an idiot not to give up your free will and say yes just so you can be immortal. But then why would god do this because he would know people are just agreeing with him to be immortal. If god understands that; you have had it, haven’t you. Everybody has.

Now if he said I will make you immortal someday whether you believe in me or not perhaps he would get some who freely accepted him as god.  It’s like the exhortation you must love your god…. The word must makes it impossible to do so freely. You don’t love god because you have to, you love him because you desire to.

Philip:  (YHWH, Isaiah 53, Romans 5).      

Roland: You see; this also puzzles me. Why do you accept Isaiah’s writings? Wasn’t he in Babylon? Many of the Jewish teachings can be related to what you would consider to be pagan gods and religions, brought into Judaism after their exile. They have found the texts which practically match the Jewish ones. Noah’s flood is written on cuneiform tablets. The Ten Commandments are in the Egyptian book of the dead and one of the psalms written on the tomb of the pharaoh Akhenaten. Long before it was written in the bible. (by the way he believed in the one true god but symbolised god with a sun disc and called it Aten, not YHWH) all these things indicate that later Christian/Judaic thinking was influenced and inspired by various pagan cults. Augustin’s mind could not have remained uninfluenced by these forces so what was the nature of his awakening. As for a bodily resurrection again this is not unique in the pagan world. The god Osiris was dismembered and put back together again, resurrected.

(QuotationWikipedia: …When his brother, Set, cut him up into pieces after killing him, Isis, his wife, found all the pieces and wrapped his body up, enabling him to return to life.) Resurrection was not an uncommon idea in the pagan world.

Philip: These are things pooh-poohed by the WAMP and thus unknown to the campuses.

Roland: I don’t know that the unawakened are not aware of them or that they are not discussed on campuses. Seems to me they are. I know about the historical trends you have pointed out. I would agree with you that many people don’t perceive the perspective about the west that you seem to see. I can, which is why I find it intriguing. I don’t think you should see it as a conspiracy theory though. It is more a question of other people’s trying to reassert their traditions and histories and so preserve their un-Western cultures.

Can’t say I blame them for this. There are problems though in that they seem to want the benefits of the west without realising that those benefits come with certain aspects of western culture. So is this what you are complaining about? If you undermine the culture you will lose the benefits.

Also I see all this as in some ways a historical repetition. You can see it in the overthrow of what you call Pagan Creek/Roman culture. Roman civilisation incorporated many cultures and peoples.  Augustin was apparently himself of North African Berber stock. Rome attempted to assimilate all these cultures only asking they obey the roman emperor, which for good or bad was the cohesive force it was the equivalent of the secular glue in the institutions of the west. (Western culture is in the same position as Rome trying to lead the world with its views.) But forces from mainly the east could not agree with these roman institutions. The result was the eventual weakening and collapse of the pagan world civilisation along with most of the knowledge it had accumulated. It was obviously Christianity which replaced roman civilisation, two thousand years to climb out of the ensuing Dark Age and we could well plunge back into it again. We are probably seeing the same thing happening again only this time it is the destroyers of the pagan world that are going to experience the disintegration of their world view. Perhaps it is poetic justice. Is it this that you are complaining about?  This is why I wish you could tell me clearly why you believe the awakening results in western culture.

WHAT IS YOUR VERSION OF AN AWAKENING?

Is it an intellectual one?  A part of the renaissance Or is it some sort of spiritual one? If so what is different about it to say Buddhist enlightenment often described as an awakening? Are we talking here about a consciousness and what it is and if it can reconstruct after the death of the body or are you concerned that a consciousness can only exist in its present body for all time or a limited time? Unless of course it is awakened by some form of altered consciousness, so again WHAT DO YOU OR AUGUSTIN MEAN BY AWAKENED?

Roland.

O Earth, may you give us the honey of wise words Upon the firm, broad Earth, the all-begetting Mother of the plants, that is supported by divine law, upon her, propitious and kind, may we ever pass our lives. .

[Roland Cichowski]

That's fine Philip thanks for letting me know. Wish you well and looking forward to being awakened.

All the best Roland 

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[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

      Viewing God as the Universe is a working theory for some scholars of science who assume that it “kind of lend itself to Boltzmann Brain fascination” and ”as an American philosopher Jack Handey once wrote that they say that a little bit of God is inside everyone's heart”. That is no “food for thought”. Because, the IQ of the material Mother Nature/Universe is zero. How can dead matter produce any life, with or without consciousness? That is illogical. It is contrary to all the Laws of Nature/Universe. The emperor has no clothes!! That is a pagan emperor with un-awakened consciousness. The existence or reality of LAWS demand the aseity of a necessary Law Giver. The acknowledgment of the aseitous Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural) as that Law Giver-- the identified Unknown God at the Athenian mars Hill discourse (Acts 17) has Patriarchal, Prophetic and Apostolic imprimatur. It is the Word and Spirit of that Adonai in the Person of the Risen Messiah who instantly awakened the consciousness of the erudite and civilized profligate pagan Augustine (4 th Century), and whose works thus pulled the West out from Greco-Roman paganism and superstitions into a non-pagan ethos.

        

      A Boltzmann brain is a highly flawed thought experiment-- a brain complete with memories of a full human life in our universe, that is fully formed from extremely rare random fluctuations out of a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. It is against the Laws of Chemistry to theorize that over an extremely huge but finite time, by chance atoms in a void could spontaneously come together in such a way as to assemble a functioning human brain which due to the Law of Entropy will naturally soon begin to slow down functioning and to decay.

     “CERTAIN” atoms— not CHANCE atoms--  do combine to form chemical bonds which are spin governed particle configurations identical to the most thermodynamically stable “ rare gas configurations of electrons in outer shells (duet and octet)”. All atoms have PREDETERMINED “stationary electron orbits”. Even Niels Bohr has to find free  electrons from some unknown sources somewhere in the human body, with wavefunctions that are collapsed by consciousness of an observer and then circularly create consciousness somewhere in the human body (fortuitously in microtubules!!).

Wave-likeness ≠ Waviness. There is no ABSURD particle-wave duality, only the REALITY of wave-like behavior of particles. Absurd solutions of Schrodinger equations must be as usual rejected. Moreover the REALITY of dark-matter and its chemistries and “dark” genetics should not be ignored, with the possibility of of cocreation of both “light” & “dark” twins at the moment of conception.

Scientists today need an Augustinian awakening! https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine

      Notes: Awakening.

1. Buddhism.   Awakening is the realization of the nature of suffering, its causes and the means of cessation of suffering

(https://buddhismguide.org/the-seven-factors-of-awakening/; https://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/essays/awakening-in-buddhism.asp)

2. Hinduism.   Kuṇḍalinī awakenings occur by means of yoga, meditation, pranayama breathing, the practice of asana and chanting of mantras. Kundalini Yoga is influenced by Shaktism and Tantra schools of Hinduism (https://vedicfeed.com/kundalini-awakening-signs/; https://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/essays/awakened.asp)       

3. Islam. The transformation is the Sahwa, or “Islamic Awakening,” an indigenous social movement that blended political activism with local religious ideas (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674049642; https://www.bmdgny.org/spiritual-awakening-in-islam-truths-about-spirituality). 

4. Modern Judaism/Talmudism/Kabbalism “TORAH OF AWAKENING is a learning and practice community for discovering your essential inner freedom through Integral Kabbalah Meditation and guidance from Reb Brian Yosef Schachter-Brooks. The teachings and practices are rooted in Judaism, but are universal and open to people of all backgrounds” www.torahofawakening.com). 

“In Judaism, just as in all the other esoteric traditions, one of the main points of the spiritual path is to merge with The Divine.  In Yehadut this is called D’vekut, literally to attach or stick to, and is repeatedly discussed throughout the Kabbalah.  This attachment or union with G!d – d’vekut – is comparable to the meaning of the word “yoga”, which literally means “yolk”, to yolk ones self to the Divine” (https://evolvingjudaism.wordpress.com/jewish-awakening).
 5. Biblicism

      Rebirth (John 3:1-9; Romans 10:17). This awakening is from an extrinsic source of Power-- the Spirit of Adonai—through the Word of Adonai. It is the Cancellation of the universal Death Sentence, the protoevangelium (Genesis 3:15) exegeted in the chapters of Isaiah 53 and Romans 5). Those who freely and willingly accept the cancellation are reborn or quickened or awakened into Redemption, those who willfully reject do that at their own peril (Pascal’s wager, French philosopher, theologian, mathematician and physicist, Blaise Pascal, 1623–1662).

Evidentialist

(Presuppositional)

Philip Benjamin    

 

On 7/03/2021 6:46, Philip Benjamin wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

'everyth...@googlegroups.com' everyth...@googlegroups.com  Subject: RE: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

[spudb...@aol.com]

Hey! I don't make the rules, I just live here for a while. All I am thinking was that if you want to get a big mind from ex nihilo, the Boltzmann factor is a great way to do this, and seems enjoyable as well. I mean He She It popped out of nowhere from our meager pov, and 17 years ago Andreas Albrecht and Lenny Susskind liked it as well, seemingly. But even if the thought it was the worst idea since clitoral excision, I'd still like it, because I am a stiff necked person, especially when  winter arrives!

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[Philip Benjamin]

RE: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

 

[Roland Cichowski]

“As this would seem to be the same god Augustin follows. I think it is much better to refer to the self-sufficient (aseity) god as the unknown god which is really what it is. A lot of argument on this is time wasted discussing basically what are names, words, symbols for this unknown god. I really don’t see the point…… “The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things…..”.  an awakening as some sort of turning point which has sent post pagan civilisation into another direction. It may be a turning point in some respect but it does not say what this awakening is/was ….. I can only think in the light of all this that you do not really know the true nature of what an awakening entails…..”.  ”And I [Walt Whitman] know that the hand of God is the promise of my own, And I know that the spirit of God is the brother of my own, And that all the men ever born are also my brothers, and the women my sisters and lovers,… And that a kelson of the creation is love,…”.

[Philip Benjamin]

     There is a recognition here of the difference between pagan and non-pagan “awakening”. Kundalini awakening is kundalini still. English language is enriched by the KJV where the word pagan is not used. Instead, heathen, foreign, strange, gentile are commonly used. Abraham was a pagan worshiping his own family deities. El Shaddai (Adonai) calls him out and make him “separate” or a non-pagan. The same separation is found in the calling of Moses (Exodus 3: 14-17). “There is no other” is clearly stated in the decalogue, Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5; 46:13 etc. as “claimed” to be a direct revelation from Adonai-- an abysmal difference between “self-revelation” of mystics or poets like Walt Whitman or Taoism of Laozi (Lao Tzu).  That claim is attested by all the Patriarchs, Prophets and the Apostles. So, the Augustinian awakening is not a “self-reformation”, but, according to Augustine, an extrinsically caused gracious Regeneration of the “inner man” by the Spirit of Adonai through the Word of Adonai that convicted him of a need of ‘quickening” from “death to life”. That CONVICTION includes the necessity of a sentencee-Sentencer relationship.   That Regeneration has nothing to do with himself as the source or originator. That is a REBIRTH just as his “First Birth” was uncaused by his own “self” (i.e. there can be no self-creation of one’s own birth!!). That very concept is unique and non-existent anywhere else—including Walt Whitman!.

Best regards

Philip Benjamin   

 

From: Roland Cichowski <rola...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2021 5:19 AM
To: Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

 

Hi Philip sorry for the delay had some disruption to my computer.

 

Philip: Viewing God as the Universe is a working theory for some scholars of science… …The existence or reality of LAWS demand the aseity of a necessary Law Giver. The acknowledgment of the aseitous Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural) as that Law Giver—

 

Roland: I basically agree with the latter part of this statement but I don’t know why you have to pin this onto a sufficient unto itself god as in the Judaic one. Rather than the pagan unknown god...

 

Philip: …the identified Unknown God at the Athenian mars Hill discourse…

 

…As this would seem to be the same god Augustin follows. I think it is much better to refer to the self-sufficient (aseity) god as the unknown god which is really what it is. A lot of argument on this is time wasted discussing basically what are names, words, symbols for this unknown god. I really don’t see the point.

 

Lots of efforts have been made to avoid this problem that is why we have so many names/symbols like YHWH, Ja, God, Brahman etc. along sometimes with the admonishment that you should not speak the name of god. There is a good reason for this. It is that our minds/consciousness cannot really encompass the full meaning of god. We are a facet of god just made in its image a mere reflection. To use any name for this ‘____’ is like saying a facet of a diamond can encompass the full glory of the diamond, which it is just a part of.

 

You have just made the statement elsewhere that mystics don’t like to use the word god. Perhaps it is because they understand the above. You might like to contemplate the Taoist statement in this respect. I’ve emboldened significant phrases and if it helps your western consciousness substitute the ‘unknown god’ for Tao.

 

“The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/230935-the-tao-that-can-be-told-is-not-the-eternal

 

Roland: The unknown god is just that unknown, it is why an alter was set up for it. The pagans were quite wise they left the question open, recognising the issues. Yet we persist in naming it. Even you do so and this is largely because we need to use something to refer to ‘IT’ to be able to discuss the subject. The instant you do so you have fallen into a trap; to use a word for this tends to funnel your conscious thinking. Most unawakened who do so don’t recognise the fact they are in such a trap. If you do recognise the trap and are awakened then you can use some sort of word but be aware the unawakened will always misuse it.

 

Philip: Scientists today need an Augustinian awakening!

 

Roland: I have to smile (with respect) because I think most scientists are the result of your Augustinian awakening. Somehow to me you have got the situation back to front here because you seem too often recognise this. To you they often seem to be the WAMP unawakened especially when from your perspective they get into quantum theories and speculate about Boltzmann brains etc.to me they are largely the product of Augustin’s awakening.

 

Thank you for attempting to answer my question on the nature of awakening. I think they at least may be an indication of the problems I am having understanding you. All of the notes: 1. Buddhism… …2. Hinduism… …3. Islam. … 4. Modern Judaism /Talmudism / Kabbalism… …5. Biblicism… All seem to indicate a means by which you might get awakened. As in awakening is the realisation… Yes it is a realisation but the realisation is not the awakening. The same with awakening occurs by means of Yoga…. This is not the awakening either Yoga is just a means to do so. You continue until you get to … This awakening is from an extrinsic source of Power—which is slightly different. The awakening is from a source but this still does not describe what the awakening bestowed is. Then you say:

 

Philip: It is the Cancellation of the universal Death Sentence, the protoevangelium (Genesis 3:15) exegeted in the chapters of Isaiah 53 and Romans 5). Those who freely and willingly accept the cancellation are reborn or quickened or awakened into Redemption

 

Roland: Protoevangelium is commonly referred to as the first mention of the good news of salvation in the Bible. It is news that an awakening has occurred but again this is no sort of explanation of what you think an awakening is. Therefore I’m left to deduce from much else that you have said that you see an awakening as some sort of turning point which has sent post pagan civilisation into another direction. It may be a turning point in some respect but it does not say what this awakening is/was especially in respect to what some might regard as a pagan awakening. You regard this new direction the result of an awakening as superior in some way. I can only think in the light of all this that you do not really know the true nature of what an awakening entails. Either that or you are reluctant to explain it. You seem to perceive it as something which creates a directional change in society’s values. Well it is good that you can perceive the change but it is the result of an awakening not what the awakening is.

 

I’ve thought deeply about this and have decided that the nature of an awakening can sometimes be better described by artists and poets preferably by one who has had some experience of an awakening themselves. So I’d like to suggest to you for consideration part of a poem by Walt Whitman (a mystic). There is a significant unusual word in it (at least to me) it is kelson, which means the keel of a ship. The opening words are significant also: “I believe in you my soul, the other I am must not abase itself to you…” because it sets the scene. Many people miss this and as a result think it is a description of some sort of sexual act. You need to read it as he is inviting his soul to Loafe with him on the grass. Then his soul/spirit provides him, his body, with the sensation of reaching till it felt (becomes aware of) his beard, and then reaching till it holds his feet. This is important because it is describing how his inner spiritual consciousness is engulfing and merging with his physical body consciousness. The rather vivid description of his spirits tongue parting his bosom bone (sternum like a keel (kelson) of his body) plunging to his bare stript heart indicates a surge of sensual and emotional feeling engulfing his being. The result is a significant change in consciousness which is the important part. Because it describes something of what the experience of a true awakening entails. Please reflect on (when reading) that the keel of creation is love and what did Jesus attempt to teach us? To love one another! So, keep this in mind when you reflect on the following words that are the result of the earlier verses and conclude the poem.

 

Swiftly arose and spread around me the peace and knowledge that pass all the argument of the earth,

And I know that the hand of God is the promise of my own,

And I know that the spirit of God is the brother of my own,

And that all the men ever born are also my brothers, and the women my sisters and lovers,

And that a kelson of the creation is love,

And limitless are leaves stiff or drooping in the fields,

And brown ants in the little wells beneath them,

And mossy scabs of the worm fence, heap'd stones, elder, mullein and poke-weed.

Song of Myself, V

Walt Whitman - 1819-1892

https://poets.org/poem/song-myself-v for the full poem.

 

To me these words describe a change from a everyday consciousness to an altered one that involves an emotional, sensual intellectual change and enhancement of experience. Therefore one who has experienced such an enhanced experienced is awakened. One who has not and lives in the mundane everyday experience is someone who is unawakened. Or what you like to refer to as a WAMP. I am not sure it is correct to object to people who through little fault of their own can be described as unawakened. It is a stage of their personal evolution and probably describes the majority of humanity. The recognition of this situation in a modern sense has been around at least since 1901.

 

Check out the book Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind published in 1901. A book by the psychiatrist Richard Maurice Bucke in, which the author explores the concept of cosmic consciousness, which he defines as "a higher form of consciousness than that possessed by the ordinary man". (Wiki)

 

The book is of course outdated in that it was produced in 1901 and in that time information about other cultures views would have been limited. But its overall perspective (a western one) is interesting and of course is a developing one. I think it is a pity that we seem to have made so little progress. This is an age when we desperately appear to need an awakening to become more prevalent in humanity. I am sure more people than ever stand on the edge of it however the whole process is under threat from many directions.

The change of direction you seem to have observed as spreading out from Augustin’s vision or awakening may be largely responsible for the advance of western knowledge on a physical front. However, it is obvious to many that the advancement has been at the cost of a terrible psychological deprivation. Little advance has been made on the wisdom and spirtiual front. We badly need the wisdom that results from an awakening but this originates on a more mystical front. You don’t feel like Whitman and plough up the leaves of grass and spray the ants with insecticide for the sake of development. You can’t.

 

Roland

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

   Codex Hammurabi, discovered at Susa at the outset of the twentieth century,  the Sinai Covenant and Hittite treaties (Mendendall 1962:716-717; Kline 1963:13-26; Durham 1987:279, 317; Whybray 1995:21), the Negative Confessions or Admonition of Maat--Chapter 125 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and there could be many more in different cultures, all may contain commonsensical, basic laws of behavior. That does not mean they have a common origin. Different cultures by and large are polytheistic. Buddhism is non-theistic. God or gods and goddesses mean different things to different cultures.  None of these proclaim any “singularity” or uniqueness  for its deities-- “I AM THAT IAM for example.

     Seventh Day is uniquely from Hebrew Old Testament. First Day as day of Resurrection is uniquely from New Testament. The Seven day week is uniquely from Hebrew texts. It does not depend on the moon (lunar year for example) or the Sun (solar year for example). There is absolutely no reason for a Seven Day week in any culture. No WAMP-ology can account for that!! That is one reason why WAMP-the-Ingrate is a stealing beneficiary of a long week-end and 5-day work week, the Sabbatical Leave etc.!!!! The Wamp does  not owe to the Egyptian Book of the Dead or Tibetan Book of the Dead or the aseity of Dead Matter or any other matter.  A “testament” necessitates the death of the testator to be effective. The Old Testament symbolically represent that “death” in the innocent animal sacrifices and the N.T. is the antitype of that – the vicarious sacrifice of the Innocent Messiah.

     The rest of your lengthy arguments arise from ignoring the “degree of rationality” in questions pertaining to aseity, origin, causality, morality, meaning, telos, eschaton etc.

Philip Benjamin

 

Thursday, March 18, 2021 9:05 AM : Philip Benjamin medin...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: FW: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

 

[Philip Benjamin] sorry Philip long post....

There is a recognition here of the difference between pagan and non-pagan “awakening”. Kundalini awakening is kundalini still. English language is enriched by the KJV [King James Bible]

Roland: Well that is interesting the whole point was hoping for is recognition that ultimately there is no difference.

Philip: El Shaddai (Adonai) calls him out and make him “separate” or a non-pagan. The same separation is found in the calling of Moses… …decalogue, [Ten Commandments]

Roland: Sorry but I can’t resist pointing out here that the Ten Commandments are to be found in the Egyptian book of the dead! PAGAN! : To your account. As such these words have been incorporated into the Old Testament. They were originally used to weigh the worth of a souls good and bad deeds.

Testament means something that serves as a sign or evidence of a specified event. But in this case they are old testimonies. When Jesus was asked for a commandment he gave only ONE! He is also reputed to have said that he came to fulfil the old teachings of the Jews. I.e. not uphold their previous views. If the teachings of Jesus Christ and his fulfilment are to be found anywhere it is in the New Testament and perhaps the gospel of Thomas, not the old witnessing. Yet so many people who claim to be followers of Jesus New Revelation / Testament or witnessing seem to consistently mix in, when it suits them the teachings of old pagan prophets who originated/grew up with and had to be influenced by PAGAN beliefs, including the Ten Commandments. If we understand the meaning and full implications of Jesus’s single commandment, LOVE ONE ANOTHER, we will realise how wise it is. It is possibly the only commandment we need because it fulfils all the others. If you truly love your enemy you will find it difficult if not impossible to kill them. Same as we won’t steal someone else’s partner because we will still love the one that has been left behind and won’t want to cause them hurt. We won’t steal someone’s property because we love that person and so on. The reverse is that the person who has a donkey who loves us will give it to us if we really need it more than them, Wisdom indeed. The question is; are you a follower of the teachings of Jesus or a follower of the old testament of Judaism? You claim to reject anything else that you call pagan so why do you preach pagan laws when it suits you?

Now with this in mind I respectfully suggest you go back to Walt Whitman’s words and consider what he is saying when he uses the word love. After all he was brought up in a society heavily influenced by Christianity and his awakenings would have been influenced by the teachings of Jesus. Unlike the Old Testament prophets who were not lucky enough to experience the coming messiah.

Philip: …an abysmal difference between “self-revelation” of mystics or poets like Walt Whitman or Taoism of Laozi (Lao Tzu).  

Augustinian awakening is not a “self-reformation”, but …an extrinsically caused gracious Regeneration of the “inner man”… … through the Word of Adonai that convicted him of a need of ‘quickening” from “death to life”.

That CONVICTION includes the necessity of a sentencee-Sentencer relationship… …That is a REBIRTH just as his “First Birth” was uncaused by his own “self” (i.e. there can be no self-creation of one’s own birth!!). 

Roland: The above three statements all show the problem I find it difficult to explain it in a way that might impart it to you. The problem seems to rest in your perception that there is a difference in the awakening experience in that one originates from within you and the other is sent from elsewhere i.e. at the behest of God. Whereas I do not see the difference and the question is why?

Ultimately I think this may be because of my understanding of the aseity of God. When we consider this seriously, instead of just accepting the principle of it, we are forced to recognise there are certain implications. The majority of people especially those in an unawakened condition, if they think about this at all, will tend to visualise god as some sort of ball that has within it its own internal presence. The problem with this is that if there is ultimately no other thing than the presence of an eternal god. Then the void in which he exists has to be part of that god also and there can be no other thing that is apart from the one true god. Not even the nothingness of a void which does not exist.

If there is nothing but the one true god in existence then there is no place for him/it to create other than within itself. So we exist within a creation that the unknown has made from themselves. This means that God itself permeates and is present throughout every element of the creation they are responsible for. Think of it as that if god exists within something then he is responsible for creating it also. This is what sufficient unto itself means. The one true god is omnipotent, eternal and present in everything but this unknown god is unknown to us if we cannot truly comprehend the true nature of its pre-existent reality, because we still cannot sense the presence of it. We all grow and evolve to a stage where we feel separated from the creation; we have a sense of self the ego. It is then that we are in an unawakened condition even though your god is within your ego.

We are unawakened if we have lost the connection with ‘it’ the unknown god. We are separated from god believing in our self’s as made in his image yet nevertheless separate. Through this separation god has created a mirror of his own image and in effect can see himself and this can be thought of as a reason why god creates in the first place. This separation is what people generally mean when they talk about having an ego. (Definition: the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.) It is this part of a person that separated from its creator, often searches for where it originates from; just as we are doing now.

Now in experiencing an awakening to this knowledge the ego is naturally threatened because it experiences its true source and something of its true nature. The perception that the awakening can be given from its creator as from outside of itself is somewhat erroneous in the above situation. The ego is connected with and is always an intrinsic part of its creator. Like everything else in existence an ego is a part of its source and that source is present within it. Yet the creator has given it a degree of autonomy. Despite this what the ego experiences the source also experiences. It is unavoidable the creator cannot part completely from its creation.

In experiencing an awakening event the ego necessarily shrinks and is put in its place by the overwhelming nature of its true reality. It’s even possible that it is extinguished completely. This though removes it from the reality of god’s creation. This is not the desire of its creator otherwise it would not have created the ego in the first place. The desire of both creator and created ego is to awaken the ego to its true situation and for that ego to find a way to exist with the knowledge of the true magnificence within, which it exists.

After such an event the ego must struggle to re-establish itself in the face of the experience and knowledge that has been revealed and acquired. One way to do this is to believe that the awakening was given and the other is to develop the belief that it opened itself to the awakening. Either proposition is erroneous in that experience of an awakening is the result of the same exposure to what you call God. We as egos can believe it is given to us or like my ego we can believe that it is something that has occurred as a result of our efforts to work towards it. Even people dealing with the necessities of daily life within the creation are really working towards this reality not realising it. In either case the reality is that the force of god is behind the manifestation of both events. It is not separate from any of it.

In your case I believe you are upholding the view that it is something that is given to you. Whereas I believe that it is something I can prepare for and open myself to, allowing god into my ego as it were. In preparing our-self though we need to seek and ask for the answers. We need that sense of otherness and the beauty of a creation that surrounds us. Gradually though we realise that the sense of otherness is one of the things keeping us from the rest of creation. Others in different times and cultures can also achieve this.

Opening yourself to an awakening can even include praying for such an event although it requires a deep sense of sincerity. Taking yourself to the stage of understanding what it is that we are seeking makes it more probable that it will occur.When and if it does, suddenly there is a shift in consciousness and we are immersed. This is what Walt Whitman is describing. Augustin’s pick up a book and read it and experiencing a sudden illumination is closer to the sensation of being given the experience by divine authority. It seems to come from out of nowhere and the ego reforms with that in its mindset. Walt though is more or less entranced by and even continually immersed in the reality of the creation and this is what we can observe in all his works.

The mystical impulse is an awakening present in many all around us in every age. It comes from the very source of our being. It is sensed by many people as they unknowingly seek for it. Those who have experienced it as a Christian like Augustine necessarily cover and project it within the confines of their culture and beliefs. Those who are touched by it with other sensibilities especially of the natural world are not bound so much by the constrictions of previous beliefs.

Interestingly the approach you favour is also promulgated by the Rosicrucians who used to refer to the phenomena in their advertising. They would refer to a beam of light striking you.

[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

Philip I am finding it hard to believe what I am reading
"A “testament” necessitates the death of the testator to be effective. The Old Testament symbolically represent that “death” in the innocent animal sacrifices and the N.T. is the antitype of that – the vicarious sacrifice of the Innocent Messiah"

Are you saying - and seriously saying - that somebody has to die, some innocent has to die to save mankind from itself? How many more have to die - millions have died - millions of innocents - men, women, children from viruses, from vaccines, from loopy politicians, from loopy clerics, from businessmen and their crooked companies, from madmen with gas chambers, the slaughter of innocents is a regular occurrence - and look where it has got us.
More slaughter.
This has got to stop.
There may have been literal killings of people in the past, but your interpretation of this archetype needs some serious updating, because it did not work.
I think it might be better to regard sacrifice in the way many dedicated men and women do - who have devoted their lives to finding out what the truth is in science, in art, in medicine, in literature, in physics, in chemistry. They have sacrificed their lives to an ideal - that is what sacrifice means.
If you decide to execute this literally, we are in such deep do-dah now with climate, epidemics, the eradication of the middle class, the degradation of the environment, you are going to have to find a very very visible victim for that to work. And there isn't one.
Give that one up for heaven's sake.
rosie

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[Roland Cichowski]

Rosie: Are you saying - and seriously saying - that somebody has to die, some innocent has to die to save mankind from itself?

Roland: Rosie you have me chuckling down here, perhaps because it does not seem so incredible to me. I have a fundamentalist friend of a similar persuasion. You’ve reminded me how ridiculous it is. Yes Philip likely does mean that although I should not say it for him. My catholic teachers/guardians taught me the same thing; that Jesus had to die on the cross to absolve our original sin. I always felt this was nothing to do with me and unfair and I didn’t want Jesus to do it on my behalf as a child it was too horrible they also taught me Jesus was such a nice guy.

Jesus had to die to lift this sin only because it was the original sin committed by our first ancestor in the Garden of Eden/paradise. God kicked us out because of this sin and every human being has been made to suffer for it ever since, innocent children included. So no good complaining about it, it’s our fault. I always wondered why god did not punish the devil, who he let wander in paradise and who by his temptation caused god to curse his created children in such a cruel way. It also puzzled me as to why god if he was so omnipotent and omniscient could let it all happen. This meant he must have intended it to happen. Now you might see why I went through an atheistic period. : -)

The Christian god seems to have had a personality change between the Old Testament and new, from a stern vengeful judge to an all loving father. If you take the all loving father perspective as Jesus seems to have taught it seems acceptable. No loving father would inflict such a punishment on his children. But the Old Testament god sticks in my throat, seems a bit of a tyrant.

The problem is most Christians (followers of Jesus the Christ not Judaism)seem confused by this they mix and change between testaments when it suits them.

Perhaps it needs a video on the symbology of paradise but that would be difficult to do without offending a lot of Christians and linking it to the idea of the gods saviour son having to die to put right the cruel behaviour of his father would be even harder to justify.

There is however another more serious side to this if you view paradise and existing in it as symbolising a pre-conscious state of innocence. Animals don’t seem to have knowledge they are going to die at least up until the last moment. The problem really is what did we do when we became self-conscious that destroyed paradise for us. How do we get back to that state and stay self-conscious? Have our cake and eat it, so to speak.

Hope you are feeling better lately

Roland

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

Roland: Rosie you have me chuckling down here, perhaps because it does not seem so incredible to me…….My catholic teachers/guardians taught me the same thing; that Jesus had to die on the cross to absolve our original sin.

Me: Is that what they taught? Seriously? Where did this come from?
No wonder Christopher Hitchen and Richard Dawkins got so upset. I know I was a Church of England child and not a Catholic, but this has never been said to me, and I don’t remember any Catholic in the UK or Europe for that matter believing this total nonsense.

This has to be American, imported with all the preachers chucked out of Europe as criminals in the 18^th century for false preaching, along with the pick pockets, prostitutes, poachers, thieves, bent judges, lawyers and other unsavoury folk.
I seem to remember they were all dumped in the southern states, which is why there was a sudden introduction of slavery.
John Wesley , the founder of the Methodists only just managed to get away with his life when he went there to try and change them. The place was virtually lawless – and again the Native American Indians were wiped out by them – a combination of imported disease , alcohol and genocide.
https://allaboutheaven.org/sources/wesley-john/124/main

If there are any Methodists in the southern states, they must have crept in later.
When the Americans [in the North] decided they didn’t want to be a penal colony any more and declared independence, the UK then dumped all its criminals in Australia, instead, where they did much the same to the Australian Aborigines.

When – in the future – we set up a penal colony on Mars, I’m sure the same will happen. The problem with dumping problem people in far away places, is that in good Darwinian fashion they breed like crazy to raise a bigger problem. Leopards don’t change their spots just because you wave a Bible at them.

Robber barons in Wapping simply produce even more robber barons in California.

Roland : Jesus had to die to lift this sin only because it was the original sin committed by our first ancestor in the Garden of Eden/paradise. God kicked us out because of this sin and every human being has been made to suffer for it ever since

Me : So an actual man had to die because a set of noodle heads did not understand the symbolism of the story – a myth – of the Garden of Eden???
I don’t think so.
He died because he threatened the uneasy truce the Pharisees had with the Romans [which is why Pontius Pilate washed his hands of the whole thing]. He was inciting discontent and rebellion just by his presence.
It was political.
I think it might be a good idea if we stopped believing that the Ultimate Intelligence involves itself in the affairs of a tiny insignificant planet somewhere in a solar system that is one of millions of solar systems, and part of a galaxy that is one of millions of galaxies.
The Intelligences have their own agenda and this takes priority. It might be remembered that our planet Earth was wiped out in the Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy, to make way for an Intergalactic highway. We need to start taking responsibility , for a change, instead of dumping our problems on other countries or planets.
Serge is, at this very moment working on the video for the symbol of Ash and all 50 shades of grey, and next on his list is that of Balance Libra and Justice. If his Internet connection stays up long enough for him to be able to load them, it might be food for thought.

Roland : The problem is most Christians (followers of Jesus the Christ not Judaism) seem confused by this they mix and change between testaments when it suits them.

Me I shall quote Nietzsche “ The only true Christian died on the cross”.
Incidentally some of Jordan Peterson’s lectures on both Job and Jesus are very good, 'why do bad things happen to the very best of people?. The terrible irony is that of course Jordan himself has been effectively killed and resurrected - the Benzodiazepines prescribed by his fellow shrinks as good as killed him, and he was resurrected by Russian doctors who put him in a coma to dry him out. But he doesn’t have the fire anymore and he looks confused and ill, poor poor man. But this time we do have recordings of his lectures and he has a lovely sprightly daughter who is as faithful and loving as any man could wish.
So if you want a Messiah, Philip – he’s your man.

Roland There is however another more serious side to this if you view paradise and existing in it as symbolising a pre-conscious state of innocence. Animals don’t seem to have knowledge they are going to die at least up until the last moment. The problem really is what did we do when we became self-conscious that destroyed paradise for us. How do we get back to that state and stay self-conscious?

Me And this very very astute observation is the key to the problem. Ultimately this is what Genesis and the Garden of Eden is all about

Matthew 18:2-4

New International Version

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them.
3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

• · Question and doubt all existing beliefs [clear out your memory]
• 
  
• · Squash the big I am
• 
  
• · Reduce desires
• 
  
• · Cut down the obligations
• 
  
• · Reduce the threats

rosie

------ Original Message ------
From: "Roland Cichowski" <rola...@gmail.com>
To: "'Rosemary Rock-Evans' via Consciousness-Online" <general...@googlegroups.com>

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[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

      “Are you saying - and seriously saying - that somebody has to die, some innocent has to die to save mankind from itself”? This is a clear case of the fallacy of equivocation, where a word or phrase is used ambiguously making  the argument misinforming.  “Death of the testator” is used the here to mean two different things that renders the argument flawed. ALL will die one day!! If millions are “testators of anything they possess the POWER over” then their will or testament will be effective only after they die.  

  Philip Benjamin    

Hebrews 9:15-18  ^“For this reason Messiah is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,  because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

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[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

    Self-inspired and self-revelatory texts of various cultures make all sorts of claims and calls about various things, mostly mystical like “Cosmic Egg” etc. which the Marxist-humanist Progressives love to interpret to fit into their worldviews. The Hebrew Scriptures have also the right to make peremptory claims and calls, such as Universal Death Sentence for INSUBORDINATION of the federal head of creation and its cancellation to willing accepters of the vicarious death of the Sentencer is a peremptory fiat of an Uncaused Creator. Hebrew Revelation has as much right as any mystic claim of mystic cultures.

  Philip Benjamin        

 

From: 'Rosemary Rock-Evans' via Consciousness-Online <general...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 7:32 AM
To: general...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: FW: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

 

Roland: Rosie you have me chuckling down here, perhaps because it does not seem so incredible to me…….My catholic teachers/guardians taught me the same thing; that Jesus had to die on the cross to absolve our original sin.

Me: Is that what they taught? Seriously? Where did this come from?
No wonder Christopher Hitchen and Richard Dawkins got so upset. I know I was a Church of England child and not a Catholic, but this has never been said to me, and I don’t remember any Catholic in the UK or Europe for that matter believing this total nonsense.

.

[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

Philip, I'm afraid I did not understand what you have written
"The Hebrew Scriptures have also the right to make peremptory claims and calls, such as Universal Death Sentence for INSUBORDINATION of the federal head of creation "

Are you saying the Hebrew people can accuse God of insubordination - and apply a universal death sentence to him? Caramba miramba! What a headline "The Jewish people have sentenced God to die, the creation will be temporarily suspended , whilst they take over".

Are you OK? You sound possessed.

rosie

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To: "general...@googlegroups.com" <general...@googlegroups.com>

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

I have read Hebrews - it was clearly written by someone who knew nothing of the symbolic meaning of anything.

I think we can dismiss it as literalism gone barmy. Blood is symbolic, ark is symbolic, sacrifice is symbolic, gold is symbolic, inner and outer court are symbolic.

Incidentally if you understand anything of the spiritual path, Augustine did not go through any rebirth process , the Dark Night of the Soul. He was 'called' that's all. In fact when I read about him I found nothing to indicate he got much beyond that stage.
This is what rebirth is and I wouln't wish it on anyone.
https://allaboutheaven.org/observations/types-spiritual-experience/rebirth-2

There are examples, it might be worth reading a few and comparing
rosie

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[Roland Cichowski]

Roland said: God kicked us out because of this sin and every human being has been made to suffer for it ever since, innocent children included. So no good complaining about it, it’s our fault.

I feel I need to make a clarification about the above statement. I was discussing it with a Christian friend off line since I wrote it and it reminded me that I have fallen into a trap that I often have to remind myself about whenever I personalise the concept of god. This time I failed to do so. Personalising god seems to bring into mind old hurts and irritations. And this leads me into seeing things in a particular way that is not really helpful.

There is actually a lot more behind the genesis myth than can be perceived if you just read it in the personalised way It is written. It is important to keep in mind these stories were likely written as parables and in this form those who did not have ears would not realise what was being said. Sometimes we still don’t me included (smile). It was a common practice of the mystery cults in the ancient world. We need not take such myths as literal we need to try and perceive what may lay behind them.

The reality is that genesis is an explanation and warning about the nature of consciousness itself. From this perspective the unknown god warned humanity not to partake of a certain fruit. You could say they forbade it but they did so for our own good. You could think of it as our minds knew it was a terrible step to take but you know natural human curiosity and all that we couldn’t help but take a bite. The real problem and danger was that taking that step of eating the apple was a symbolisation of the awakening of self-consciousness. It is only when we are Self-conscious that we know that we are naked. It also brings with it a whole lot of other nasties that we would not have realised before we became self-conscious. You could simplify this down into it was when we developed the ability to separate ourselves from the creation. It is only when we can perceive the difference between ourselves and the creation about us that we can also perceive all its flaws. The lion no longer lays down with the lamb he eats it. In developing the ability to perceive these things we destroyed the garden of paradise. It was no longer possible for us to experience it as something that was always beautiful. In this way it is not correct to say that god threw us out of the garden. It is more correct to say we did not listen and have been dealing with the consequences ever since.

With this in mind we have to consider the suggested connection between this myth and Jesus the son of god being sacrificed to overcome this sin. If Philip is correct about anything it may be that this event has led to a historical developmental process that may one day culminate in us taking that step back into the garden. A new form of consciousness. A lot of bad things have come from Christianity but we have to remember there are also a lot of good things.  

Roland

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[Rosemary Rock-Evans]

GOOD
NOW DON'T SAY OUCH ROLAND BECAUSE NONE OF THE FOLLOWING IS AIMED AT YOU. DO NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY. I AM ACTUALLY [IN MY OWN BERYL THE PERIL FASHION] TRYING TO EXPAND ON YOUR POINTS

The snake persuaded an innocent [Eve] that he was advising her in her best interests [the 'it won't do any harm' fox like approach] and because she was innocent and trusting - a sort of child or goose even , she pointed out the apple of book learning and curiosity to Adam. And it was the Man who ate it. He could have been a good knight and protected her, but he didn't. Men can spot foxes, snakes and eagles a mile off. My father spent most of my youth warning me 'of what men can do' - and he knew because he was one. He was a good knight.

Curiosity killed the cat [mixing my metaphors like mad here]. The apple had both knowledge and curiosity combined with a disastrous pip of 'wanting', wanting to own things or get things.

Contentment was lost.

Matthew 6:28-29
King James Version
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field,
how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his
glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Just the same as Prometheus stealing fire. Fire and blacksmiths go together, forging the creation. Thus Fire [in this context] represents the ability to co-create form. No other species can do this. Blackbirds can't make bicycles, all they have ever made is song. But we stole this creative ability from the gods.

And the combination of our ability to create toys like cars and planes or meddle with genes is - according to myth lethal. As we are seeing given climate change and resource depletion. And the punishment will be like having our livers eaten away [without any opioids] by an eagle ever day - slowly eaten away to prolong the agony.

Both myths are saying that the combination of a little bit of knowledge, but nowhere near the mental capacity to deal with it, plus our curiosity and our apparent inability to be happy with what we have [I wonder what will happen next or I'm bored] is a disaster, an absolute complete and utter disaster and the result will be untold suffering.

Add to this constant wanting, wanting, wanting [instead of needing] and a complete inability to predict what will happen next [for example I read somewhere that 'scientists' were thinking of releasing bacteria that ate plastic into the sea to clean it up a bit, now what a clever idea that was [not] - and if you can't see the downsides to this you only prove what I mean].
And overall the future does not look rosie.

I think the biggest demonstration of how stupid people really are, is the example of the very rich who meddle in philanthropy. They get rich by making or financing products they tout as environmentally friendly but are anything but - lithium , for example used for the batteries in computers and cars, is an environmental disaster and Solar panels contain lead, cadmium, and other toxic chemicals . So they make their money by ravaging the earth and introducing more toxins.
Then they pretend to be philanthropists by setting up funds that avoid the very tax that might be needed to clean up the mess they left behind and then pretend to give it away by financing companies they have shares in anyway with an equally dubious record.

BUT THERE IS A SOLUTION

1. When it comes to things - material things - we must actively encourage people to reuse, repair, refurbish, recycle and repurpose. Put a tax so swingeingly high on goods that do not last and cannot be repaired or are new, that a whole industry emerges based on the resources already there. [Incidentally that will immediately remove all imported chinese goods - the light bulbs that only last two weeks].

2. Use the tax to help start up companies that reuse, repair, refurbish, recycle and repurpose and fund apprenticeships in these skills.

3. Bring in very heavy penalties [massive fines] for any company selling new products that fail. And do this by enabling people to bring in their failed product to legally run checking centres , get an immediate check of why and a refund if genuine. The company is then fined - say 100 times the cost of the refund to cover the admin costs and fund 2. Maybe quality may return then instead of the emphasis being on low cost

4. Encourage all forms of creativity that involve no or very little material things - music, videos, entertainment that can be viewed online, online books, online reference libraries, by digitising existing paper or canvas based resources and setting up virtual libraries, virtual galleries [for pictures]. For example, a person who currently runs an existing gallery on the high street may be encouraged to set up a virtual gallery online using digitally produced pictures that people are able to produce copies of

And if anyone says, but how do I make my money? The answer is simple. What are you going to spend this money on? All you will need is food and a simple house and a set of recycled clothes. And the food you can probably mostly grow yourself, or in a group.

And if you then say but what about the computer needed to have this virtual world? Maybe instead of child allowance [which won't be needed], a child gets a computer for its birthday provided by the government, as a one off present.

rosie

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[Philip Benjamin]

Erik Larson March 19, 2021 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-19/conservative-judge-calls-media-an-anti-gop-threat-to-democracy. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9382047

 “US Circuit Judge Laurence H. Silberman warns the current state of media is 'a threat to a viable democracy' . A federal judge called for a landmark Supreme Court decision on freedom of the press and libel laws to be overturned in a fiery dissent decrying "bias against the Republican Party," blasting the near "one-party control" of legacy news media, slamming Silicon Valley's censorship of the Hunter Biden laptop story, and warning that the current state.”

[Philip Benjamin]

    This not a Liberal vs Conservative issue. Rather it is paganism (WAMP) vs non-paganism (transformed or cultural). Empire is originally a pagan notion, while Nation or State is a non-pagan notion. America is a Non-Sovereign Federation of Sovereign States and the result of two non-pagan historical “Great Awakenings” similar to the Augustinian transformation (from paganism into non-paganism). Even a Classical Liberal President Roosevelt, could persuade Britain to liberate all its residual Colonies. Presidents Truman and Eisenhower were very earnest about independent nations and the British Commonwealth of Nations as structured today is a result of that. The WAMPs hate it, they are willfully ignorant of Western history (which is essentially Church histories) they  are for open boarders, global paganisms and Marxist-Socialist-Fascist Progressivism.  

 

   This quote from a recent post here is very common on the campuses: “The snake persuaded an innocent [Eve] that he was advising her in her best interests [the 'it won't do any harm' fox like approach] and because she was innocent and trusting - a sort of child or goose even , she pointed out the apple of book learning and curiosity to Adam…  The reality is that genesis is an explanation and warning about the nature of consciousness itself. From this perspective the unknown god warned humanity not to partake of a certain fruit. You could say they forbade it but they did so for our own good”.

1 .    The “snake” here is the “condemned” creature which originally stood upright and could  be trained to talk ( as some birds still do).

2 .    There were no laws to break in Eden—no death of animals or humans pronounced as yet. The only “No” in that vegetarian world 

         was pertaining to eating “one” specific fruit, which was forbidden under penalty of death for insubordination.

3 .     There was a “Lamb” foreordained BEFORE and slain FROM the foundation of the world (Genesis 3: 15; 1 Peter 1:20; Revelation

         13: 8). There is no after-thought here.

 4 .    Free will of the Uncaused Cause means a will free to “know” or “not to know”. Free will of a conscious caused effect will also be

         free to “know” or “not to know”, if that effect is from the same Uncaused Cause.

5 .     None can escape facing the issue of aseity – either of Dead matter or of LIFE. The MORE rational choice is that of LIFE.

              Note: Moses did not tell “Burning Bush” sent him to Pharaoh. He said rather: “Elohim of the Hebrews” sent him. The term Jews is used in post Assyrian exile (2 Kings chapters 16—25) – by Neo-Assyrian monarchs, Tiglath-Pileser III (Pul) and Shalmaneser V, the later Assyrian rulers Sargon II and his son, about 745–727 BC.

[Cathy Reason]

Philip:

 

Erik Larson March 19, 2021 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-19/conservative-judge-calls-media-an-anti-gop-threat-to-democracy. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9382047
 “US Circuit Judge Laurence H. Silberman warns the current state of media is 'a threat to a viable democracy' . A federal judge called for a landmark Supreme Court decision on freedom of the press and libel laws to be overturned in a fiery dissent decrying "bias against the Republican Party," blasting the near "one-party control" of legacy news media, slamming Silicon Valley's censorship of the Hunter Biden laptop story, and warning that the current state.”

 

Somehow, the obvious keeps getting overlooked.  If these people's right op free speech were being infringed in the way they constantly claim, then we would not continually be hearing them say so.

 

 

Cathy

[Harland Harrison]

Cathy,

You are quite right;  since we keep hearing from the Republicans they are not being censored.  Still, something has certainly gone wrong with media, at least in the US.  Consider the horrific event of censorship that happened in January without any noticeable objection:  A handful of rich men decided that the President of the United States could no longer communicate with his voters.  The argument that he might be insane or criminal, or both, only demonstrates their negligence for letting him abuse their platforms in the first place.  In fact,  he won election with the help of lies published by those same platforms. The owners give new words to their censorship, "deplatform",  "demonetize",  "suspend",  or just "take down",  but despite the "new speak",  they manipulate and control public opinion in a totalitarian manner.

Would it be possible to model, mathematically, the effects of these new "social media" as opposed to traditional publishers, on the stability and desirable characteristics of a society?  "System Dynamics" models the marketability of new products and even politicians.  Could the same differential equations model the spread of truth versus lies,  and the popularity of dangerous intentions?  The legal frameworks governing "social" and traditional publications are quite different, at least in the USA.  These special laws will come under review, eventually, as even the owners themselves now call for changes.  Mathematical models to predict the effect of legislation would be interesting and probably useful.  Is it possible?

Harland

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[John Hey]

Since "truth" has no objective definition or identifiable aspect, I don't see how such a model could ever hope do more than, say. enforce the opinions of a credulous plurality.

-J

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[Harland Harrison]

The proposed model would simulate the spread of information through traditional and "social" media.  It would measure and predict how media serve to "enforce the opinions of a credulous plurality" as well as how media serve to expose deceitful leaders.  Politicians could use such a model to make legislation either  better or worse.  Presumedly,  wherever government does not control the media,  the politicians would want to limit the power of media to delude people.  

Harland Harrison

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[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin] 

    Paganism hates FREEDOMs which Non-paganism considers as birthrights.

1 . https://www.dailywire.com/news/the-end-of-conservative-books-amazon-quietly-bans-books-they-deem-offensive-hate-speech

     “The End Of Conservative Books’: Amazon Quietly Bans Books They Deem Offensive, ‘Hate Speech’

By  Amanda Prestigiacomo  Feb 27, 2021   DailyWire.com

2.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/here-s-why-social-media-ban-on-trump-conservatives-will-only-make-things-worse/

      Here's why social media ban on Trump, conservatives will only make things worse. By Joe Concha, Opinion Contributor —

     01/11/21

3 . https://www.unitedvoice.com/social-media-bans-popular-conservatives/ Social Media Bans Popular Conservatives

Joe Concha, Opinion Contributor  1/11/2021

4 .   Using the No-Fly List and social media bans against conservatives is no way to move forward by Sabtain Ali          

       https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/using-the-no-fly-list-and-social-media-bans-against-conservatives-is-no-way-          

       to-move-forward  

5 .   Liberal Media Scream: CNN wants conservative media squelched in 'national emergency'

        by Paul Bedard 

6.    Power-Drunk Democrats Join CNN In Lobbying To Ban Fox News From The Airwaves

       JANUARY 8, 2021 By Jordan Davidson

7 .  https://thefederalist.com/2021/01/08/power-drunk-democrats-join-cnn-in-lobbying-to-ban-fox-news-from-the-airwaves/

8 .   https://www.halseynews.com/2021/01/18/cnn-wants-to-eliminate-american-conservative-media-options/ CNN Wants to     

       Eliminate American Conservative Media   Options  By Alex  Roberts -January 18, 20211169

9 .    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/books/simon-schuster-josh-hawley-book.htmlSimon & Schuster Cancels Plans for Senator   

        Hawley’s Book  By Elizabeth A. Harris and Alexandra Alter     Published Jan. 7, 2021

10 .  https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/media/josh-hawley-book-canceled/index.html     Sen. Josh Hawley's book canceled by  

         publisher citing 'deadly insurrection' at Capitol building

[Cathy Reason]

Philip:

<<Amazon Quietly Bans Books They Deem Offensive, ‘Hate Speech’>>

Not so quietly, it would seem.


Cathy

[Harland Harrison]

"Non-pagans" think free expression is a birthright!?  Really? Khasshoggi was murdered and dismembered in the Consulate of a country with a verse from the Holy Koran on its flag.  Salman Rushdie got a bounty on his head for a novel. 

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.

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

     Non-paganism is easy to define in Queen’s English that was once enriched by the Scriptures (KJV), where anything derived from the “Elohim of the Scriptures” is non-pagan [not Gaia worshiping, not foreign (heathen)]. Awakening here refers to the Augustinian “quickening of the inner man” purely and solely by the extrinsic Spirit of Elohim by virtue of the acceptance of the vicarious death of the  “preordained Lamb slain” by the “inner man”. Only a non-pagan Moses could tell the civilized pagan Pharoah that “Elohim of the Hebrews (i.e. the Patriarchs) had commissioned him to presage Pharaoh, NOT the “Burning Bush”.  Augustine was a scholarly, civilized but profligate Phoenician PAGAN of Greco-Roman roots who was instantly transformed into an awakened NON-PAGAN (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine; https://www.augustinian.org/saints-1/april-24).   

    The following references  show what PAGAN America with an Un-awakened or kundalini consciousness can do AT BEST:  

1 . https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rubio-responds-to-cigna-revelations-grotesque-and-un-american/  “The courses offered at Cigna included reviews of concepts like " white privilege," "gender privilege," and something called "religious privilege," which is described as "a set of advantages that benefits believers of a certain religion but not people who practice other religions or no religions at all."  

2 . https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ilhan-omar-the-media-is-missing-the-point-on-the-border-crisis/ The Minnesota congresswoman Rep. Ilhan Omar wants the  media [WAMP] to change the way it covers immigration. She told CNN's Chief Media Correspondent Brian Stelter on "Reliable Sources" Sunday. "And it's really important for us to show the basic humanity and treat the causes of migration in the region." This is a dire lack of understanding of the Non-Sovereign Federation of the Sovereign States of America, which is a product of “Two Great Awakenings”. The awakened Puritans, unlike the Spaniards, were not settling for gold.

   Philip Benjamin            

 

From: 'Harland Harrison' via Consciousness-Online <general...@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2021 2:14 PM  To: general...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

 

"Non-pagans" think free expression is a birthright!?  Really? Khasshoggi was murdered and dismembered in the Consulate of a country with a verse from the Holy Koran on its flag.  Salman Rushdie got a bounty on his head for a novel. 

 

 

 

.

[Philip Benjamin]

Hi, Cathy:
Quietly here means tacitly or implicitly-- to hurt without blame or shame. For example: "Merriam-Webster dictionary has quietly changed the definition of the term 'vaccine' to include components of the COVID-19 mRNA injection. The definition of vaccine was specifically changed due to the COVID-19 injection."
Only targets of the WAMP's beastly intolerance can appreciate how tacit but unconscionable their modus operandi is.
Philip Benjamin

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Cathy Reason' via Consciousness-Online <general...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2021 12:42 PM
To: general...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Consciousness-Online] pagans vs non pagans

Cathy .