future community collaboration tool (deprecating fricas-devel maillist)

[Qian Yun]

Hello everyone on fricas-devel:

You may have noticed that Waldek has not posted on fricas-devel
for a while now. He has replied to GitHub issues in the mean
time however.

So I asked him privately via email, and he replied that he can't
reply/receive to fricas-devel, because Google wants cell number.

And with his permission, I'm asking community members for opinions
that which tool share we use instead.

To quote Waldek's opinion:

> ATM I am not sure what is better. One possiblity is to
> set up our own mail server. I could do this on the
> same machine as wiki. Of course we could use GitHub
> mail. However, it is not clear what folks on the list
> want. For me old plain e-mail is preferable and also
> I would like sensible publicaly visible archive.

Personally I prefer GitHub. Waldek replies with:

> Well, GitHub web interface mangles code which is IMO serious problem.
> That is why I wrote "sensible publicaly visible archive", AFAICS
> GitHub does not qualify as "sensible" here.

But I think GitHub uses markdown, and ```` code block should solve it.

So, members of fricas community, let your opinions be heard,
and hopefully a satisfying decision will be made based on that.

- Best,
- Qian

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022, 04:48 Qian Yun, <oldk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everyone on fricas-devel:

You may have noticed that Waldek has not posted on fricas-devel
for a while now.  He has replied to GitHub issues in the mean
time however.

So I asked him privately via email, and he replied that he can't
reply/receive to fricas-devel, because Google wants cell number.

one can use Google Groups without a Google account, using an email, or a web interface.

And with his permission, I'm asking community members for opinions
that which tool share we use instead.

To quote Waldek's opinion:

 > ATM I am not sure what is better.  One possiblity is to
 > set up our own mail server.  I could do this on the
 > same machine as wiki. 

please don't. This is much work nowadays to keep it running smoothly, and it needs a central archive, too.

Of course we could use GitHub
 > mail.  However, it is not clear what folks on the list
 > want.  For me old plain e-mail is preferable and also
 > I would like sensible publicaly visible archive.

Personally I prefer GitHub.  Waldek replies with:

 > Well, GitHub web interface mangles code which is IMO serious problem.
 > That is why I wrote "sensible publicaly visible archive", AFAICS
 > GitHub does not qualify as "sensible" here.

But I think GitHub uses markdown, and ```` code block should solve it.

indeed, GitHub's Discussions are good, and allow all the formatting allowed in its Issues.

https://docs.github.com/en/discussions/collaborating-with-your-community-using-discussions/about-discussions

So, members of fricas community, let your opinions be heard,
and hopefully a satisfying decision will be made based on that.

- Best,
- Qian

--
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[Bill Page]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 at 23:48, Qian Yun <oldk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone on fricas-devel:
>
> You may have noticed that Waldek has not posted on fricas-devel
> for a while now. He has replied to GitHub issues in the mean
> time however.
>
> So I asked him privately via email, and he replied that he can't
> reply/receive to fricas-devel, because Google wants cell number.
>

This seems extremely odd to me. Perhaps there is just some confusion
on how to use Google Groups. I never (well, almost never) use Google
Groups directly. All postings on the FriCAS group are sent to me by
simple email (such as this one) and my replies (such as this one) are
sent to the FriCAS group as an email. I have used the FriCAS group
this way since the beginning. So I am seriously confused if someone
claims "Google wants cell number". I never gave Google my cell number.
So far as I know this isn't even necessary if you actually have a
gmail account. Rather, it is perhaps an option in this case if you
want to use 2-factor authentication.

> And with his permission, I'm asking community members for opinions
> that which tool share we use instead.
>

Although of course I want Waldek to participate in the FriCAS group
but it seems strange to me if Waldek is the only user experiencing
this problem. Perhaps it can be resolved just by accessing the group
in a different way, i.e. by email.

> To quote Waldek's opinion:
>
> > ATM I am not sure what is better. One possiblity is to
> > set up our own mail server. I could do this on the
> > same machine as wiki. Of course we could use GitHub
> > mail. However, it is not clear what folks on the list
> > want. For me old plain e-mail is preferable and also
> > I would like sensible publicaly visible archive.
>
> Personally I prefer GitHub. Waldek replies with:
>
> > Well, GitHub web interface mangles code which is IMO serious problem.
> > That is why I wrote "sensible publicaly visible archive", AFAICS
> > GitHub does not qualify as "sensible" here.
>
> But I think GitHub uses markdown, and ```` code block should solve it.
>

GitHub would be fine with me if this is really necessary. But I think
it is also very common to use GitHub with the 2-factor authentication
option (at least I do) in which case a cell phone will usually also be
involved.

> So, members of fricas community, let your opinions be heard,
> and hopefully a satisfying decision will be made based on that.
>

Thank you for your effort to resolve the problem!

> - Best,
> - Qian
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS - computer algebra system" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to fricas-devel...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fricas-devel/25f37615-32ea-1ca5-5204-83a81ee3e0b2%40gmail.com.

You can notice above the postscript that Google Groups adds when
sending group postings by email. I never use the link to "view this
discussion on the web".

Regards,
Bill Page.

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 7:04 PM Bill Page <bill...@newsynthesis.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 at 23:48, Qian Yun <oldk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone on fricas-devel:
> >
> > You may have noticed that Waldek has not posted on fricas-devel
> > for a while now. He has replied to GitHub issues in the mean
> > time however.
> >
> > So I asked him privately via email, and he replied that he can't
> > reply/receive to fricas-devel, because Google wants cell number.
> >
>
> This seems extremely odd to me. Perhaps there is just some confusion
> on how to use Google Groups. I never (well, almost never) use Google
> Groups directly. All postings on the FriCAS group are sent to me by
> simple email (such as this one) and my replies (such as this one) are
> sent to the FriCAS group as an email. I have used the FriCAS group
> this way since the beginning. So I am seriously confused if someone
> claims "Google wants cell number". I never gave Google my cell number.
> So far as I know this isn't even necessary if you actually have a
> gmail account. Rather, it is perhaps an option in this case if you
> want to use 2-factor authentication.

One absolutey does not need a cell phone (or a special hardware token) for 2FA.
You can use a very fine console program called "pass" and its "otp"
extension. It uses gpg to encypt your keys. You an also use git to
share your enrypted keys
accross different machines.
E.g. on Debian one would install package pass-extension-otp for this.

> > And with his permission, I'm asking community members for opinions
> > that which tool share we use instead.
> >
>
> Although of course I want Waldek to participate in the FriCAS group
> but it seems strange to me if Waldek is the only user experiencing
> this problem. Perhaps it can be resolved just by accessing the group
> in a different way, i.e. by email.
>
> > To quote Waldek's opinion:
> >
> > > ATM I am not sure what is better. One possiblity is to
> > > set up our own mail server. I could do this on the
> > > same machine as wiki. Of course we could use GitHub
> > > mail. However, it is not clear what folks on the list
> > > want. For me old plain e-mail is preferable and also
> > > I would like sensible publicaly visible archive.
> >
> > Personally I prefer GitHub. Waldek replies with:
> >
> > > Well, GitHub web interface mangles code which is IMO serious problem.
> > > That is why I wrote "sensible publicaly visible archive", AFAICS
> > > GitHub does not qualify as "sensible" here.
> >
> > But I think GitHub uses markdown, and ```` code block should solve it.
> >
>
> GitHub would be fine with me if this is really necessary. But I think
> it is also very common to use GitHub with the 2-factor authentication
> option (at least I do) in which case a cell phone will usually also be
> involved.

No, no need for a phone for 2FA, see above.

HTH
Dima

>
> > So, members of fricas community, let your opinions be heard,
> > and hopefully a satisfying decision will be made based on that.
> >
>
> Thank you for your effort to resolve the problem!
>
> > - Best,
> > - Qian
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS - computer algebra system" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to fricas-devel...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fricas-devel/25f37615-32ea-1ca5-5204-83a81ee3e0b2%40gmail.com.
>
> You can notice above the postscript that Google Groups adds when
> sending group postings by email. I never use the link to "view this
> discussion on the web".
>
> Regards,
> Bill Page.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS - computer algebra system" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to fricas-devel...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fricas-devel/CAC6x94RPA%2BB9ML_SWCt6gtyDrw0HAi0rnEp-fVqTbkhrj1QaZg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ralf Hemmecke]

>> So I asked him privately via email, and he replied that he can't
>> reply/receive to fricas-devel, because Google wants cell number.

> This seems extremely odd to me.

Also to me. Google does not have a phone number from me, in fact,
without a mobile phone I could not even give one. ;-)

Google sometimes tries to convince me to provide a phone number, if they
force me to give one, I must give up my google account.

> So far as I know this isn't even necessary if you actually have a
> gmail account. Rather, it is perhaps an option in this case if you
> want to use 2-factor authentication.

Well, Bill, try to setup a new google account. I had a discussion with
Waldek some time ago and was surprised that (maybe from 2022 on) I am no
longer able to create a google or gmail account without providing a
phone number. If you know how one could do this, I'd be interested to know.

I use the fricas-devel list in the same way as Bill. I almost never
login to the webinterface. And since we have

https://www.mail-archive.com/fricas...@googlegroups.com/

there is no need for a google login. And the list is searchable.

> Although of course I want Waldek to participate in the FriCAS group
> but it seems strange to me if Waldek is the only user experiencing
> this problem. Perhaps it can be resolved just by accessing the group
> in a different way, i.e. by email.

Waldek is now subscribed at fricas-devel with a an email ending in
@gtempaccount.com. That looks to me that he has changed his email and
maybe this is the source of his problem. Unfortunately, I have only
heard about google wanting a phone number, but not whether Waldek still
receives mail from fricas-devel.

To fix the problem of not being able to receive mails from fricas-devel
or post to it would be good, to learn a bit more about how this all came
about.

Today I have tested with Dima on another google mailing list, that it is
actually not necessary at all to have a google account in order to post
to the group or receive emails from it. The list owner (which is
currently Waldek, Bill and me can add people to the group with any email
address.

So my suggestion is, we continue using fricas-devel as always and put a
note to fricas.github.io, that everyone who does not want to create a
google account sends an email to me and I will manually add them. I'm
sure that I will not be overburdened by this task.

Waldek, give me some email-address and I will add you to fricas-devel
and you can use our mailing list as before.

>> To quote Waldek's opinion:
>>
>> > ATM I am not sure what is better. One possiblity is to
>> > set up our own mail server. I could do this on the
>> > same machine as wiki.

I am strongly against it. That only causes needless maintenance work and
would run on a very old debian.

> Of course we could use GitHub
>> > mail. However, it is not clear what folks on the list
>> > want. For me old plain e-mail is preferable and also
>> > I would like sensible publicaly visible archive.

Exactly. We can continue as always. I just use my local mailreader to
communicate with fricas-devel.

>> Personally I prefer GitHub. Waldek replies with:
>>
>> > Well, GitHub web interface mangles code which is IMO serious problem.
>> > That is why I wrote "sensible publicaly visible archive", AFAICS
>> > GitHub does not qualify as "sensible" here.

>> But I think GitHub uses markdown, and ```` code block should solve it.

Yes. Wrapping code in

```
some code
here
```
is an easy exercise. But I must admit that I would also be happier if
github offered a way to simply post in ASCII. However, Markdown is
reasonably simple enough.

> GitHub would be fine with me if this is really necessary. But I think
> it is also very common to use GitHub with the 2-factor authentication
> option (at least I do) in which case a cell phone will usually also be
> involved.

The good thing with using git as a repository format is that we are not
bound to any particular provider. We would just have to declare one
particular clone to be the official one. And only for that reason I
initially wanted github. I still don't use many features from github,
but I see a clear advantage to have some kind of issue tracker that
allows for discussions on a particularly numbered issue. In fact, I very
much like that the issues are visible and not hidden in the noise of the
mailing list.

Everything should stay as is, but we should resolve Waldek's problem
with the mailing list. I'm pretty sure we can handle this to his liking.

Ralf

[oldk1331]

Well, Bill, try to setup a new google account. I had a discussion with
Waldek some time ago and was surprised that (maybe from 2022 on) I am no
longer able to create a google or gmail account without providing a
phone number. If you know how one could do this, I'd be interested to know.

Hi Ralf, one way that I know to create Gmail account without phone number

(at least a few months ago) is that, create a new user in Android phone

(or Android VM, I presume).

- Best,

- Qian

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

May be someone can explain how to subscribe to https://groups.google.com/g/fricas-devel  via email, or by using nntp.aioe.org?  Since Fricas does NOT show up as newsgroup on  nntp.aioe.org.  I have to login to google each time to post here.  (but had to create a google account to do this). 

But for say sci.math.symbolic, I can access it from news://nntp.aioe.org:119/sci.math.symbolic  via my email reader (thunderbird) via nntp.aioe.org and hence I do not need to login to google to read and write to  sci.math.symbolic new group. It will be nice to do the same here.

May be someone can explain, easy to follow step by step, how one can read and write here without having to login to google first?  

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

fyi,

Waldek has mentioned this issue sometime ago at sci.math.symbolic,  here the direct link to his post

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.math.symbolic/c/4zljP9WGeCI/m/tRJIzvRqAQAJ

[Bill Page]

I haven't done this is a long time but you could try sending an email like this:
---
To: <fricas-deve...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: subscribe
subscribe
---

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FriCAS - computer algebra system" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to fricas-devel...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fricas-devel/d67b42bd-612e-4645-875f-888a5d7d9ed4n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ralf Hemmecke]

On 26.04.22 02:47, 'Nasser M. Abbasi' via FriCAS - computer algebra

system wrote:
> May be someone can explain how to subscribe to
> https://groups.google.com/g/fricas-devel via email

Isn't it what I said yesterday?
https://www.mail-archive.com/fricas...@googlegroups.com/msg14458.html

To make it more concrete:

Send and email-address to

fricas-deve...@hemmecke.org

and I will try to subscribe you. Since I will have to do this for the
first time, I cannot claim that I do everything correctly.

If everything works out fine, I'll put that information onto
fricas.github.io.

> or by using nntp.aioe.org? Since Fricas does NOT show up as
> newsgroup on nntp.aioe.org. I have to login to google each time to
> post here. (but had to create a google account to do this).

I am not aware that any FriCAS developer claimed that fricas-devel can
be used via nntp.aloe.org. I am also not aware that ever someone asked
(via private mail to one of the developers) to make that possible. I
would anyway have no idea how to set this up.

> But for say sci.math.symbolic, I can access it from
> news://nntp.aioe.org:119/sci.math.symbolic via my email reader
> (thunderbird) via nntp.aioe.org and hence I do not need to login to
> google to read and write to sci.math.symbolic new group. It will be
> nice to do the same here.

FriCAS is a project run by people on a voluntary basis. You cannot
expect that FriCAS developers can do everything. It is always welcome if
some new person steps in and helps. Everything that helps to spread
FriCAS is welcome. So the best way is to step in yourself and try to
find out how to do it and then do it.

Ralf

[Ralf Hemmecke]

I am unable to create a google account in android 9 in a virtualbox
without being forced to give a phone number for an sms.

Actually, the docs at google.com (at least in german) say that the phone
number is optional, but they don't let me continue if I leave the field
empty.

Ralf

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "MA" == "'Nasser M Abbasi' via FriCAS <- computer algebra system" <fricas...@googlegroups.com>> writes:

MA> May be someone can explain how to subscribe
MA> to https://groups.google.com/g/fricas-devel via email

I posted this yesterday, but do not see it on the list....

subscribe by sending an email to fricas-deve...@googlegroups.com
and then rely to the confirmation request the send in return.

-JimC
--
James Cloos <cl...@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6