E logo

[William ML Leslie]

Hi,

Is there a large version of the E logo with the Granovetter Lambda feature?  I thought it was a hero image on erights.org, but it's possible I hallucinated this.  There's only a 32x32 version in the footer navigation, a favicon, and the walnut version.

--

William ML Leslie

[Tony Arcieri]

Not quite sure if this is what you're after, but awhile ago I made a vector version of the Granovetter diagram

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Tony Arcieri

[Mike Stay]

The only Granovetter diagram I recall seeing on erights is the one here:
http://erights.org/elib/capability/ode/overview.html

On Mon, Jan 12, 2026 at 10:29 PM William ML Leslie
<william.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

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Mike Stay - meta...@gmail.com
https://math.ucr.edu/~mike
https://reperiendi.wordpress.com

[Mike Stay]

Oh, I see. This is the image you're referring to:
http://erights.org/images/e-lambda.gif
The images directory is readable:
http://erights.org/images/

I see some variants (e-on-black.gif and various walnuts), but I don't
see any higher-resolution versions.

[Mike Stay]

Here's an SVG version.

<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="400" height="400"
viewBox="0 0 400 400">
<defs>
<!-- Arrowheads -->
<marker id="arrow-black" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="9" refY="5"
markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">
<path d="M 0 0 L 10 5 L 0 10 z" fill="#000000"/>
</marker>

<marker id="arrow-blue" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="9" refY="5"
markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">
<path d="M 0 0 L 10 5 L 0 10 z" fill="#1f5fbf"/>
</marker>
</defs>

<!-- White background -->
<rect x="0" y="0" width="400" height="400" fill="#ffffff"/>

<!-- Blue "E" moved left -->
<text x="130" y="210"
font-family="Times New Roman, Times, serif"
font-size="240"
fill="#1f5fbf"
text-anchor="middle"
dominant-baseline="middle">
E
</text>

<!-- Black arrow: lower-right to top-middle (smaller arrowhead) -->
<line x1="340" y1="320" x2="220" y2="60"
stroke="#000000" stroke-width="8" stroke-linecap="round"
marker-end="url(#arrow-black)"/>

<!-- Blue arrow FIRST (so its tail is covered by the ellipse) -->
<line x1="280" y1="190" x2="200" y2="360"
stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)"/>

<!-- Ellipse on top, aligned with black arrow angle, filled white -->
<!-- Angle of the black arrow is approximately -114.8 degrees -->
<g transform="translate(280 190) rotate(-114.8)">
<ellipse cx="0" cy="0" rx="44" ry="22"
fill="#ffffff" stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6"/>
</g>
</svg>

[Mike Stay]

Cleaned up a bit:

<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="400" height="400"
viewBox="0 0 400 400">
<defs>
<!-- Arrowheads -->
<marker id="arrow-black" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="9" refY="5"
markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">
<path d="M 0 0 L 10 5 L 0 10 z" fill="#000000"/>
</marker>

<marker id="arrow-blue" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="9" refY="5"
markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">
<path d="M 0 0 L 10 5 L 0 10 z" fill="#1f5fbf"/>
</marker>
</defs>

<!-- White background -->
<rect x="0" y="0" width="400" height="400" fill="#ffffff"/>

<!-- Blue "E" moved left -->

<text x="130" y="240"

font-family="Times New Roman, Times, serif"
font-size="240"
fill="#1f5fbf"
text-anchor="middle"
dominant-baseline="middle">
E
</text>

<!-- Black arrow: lower-right to top-middle (smaller arrowhead) -->
<line x1="340" y1="320" x2="220" y2="60"

stroke="#000000" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"

marker-end="url(#arrow-black)"/>

<!-- Blue arrow FIRST (so its tail is covered by the ellipse) -->

<line x1="285" y1="205" x2="200" y2="360"

stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)"/>

<!-- Ellipse on top, aligned with black arrow angle, filled white -->
<!-- Angle of the black arrow is approximately -114.8 degrees -->

<g transform="translate(285 205) rotate(-112)">

<ellipse cx="0" cy="0" rx="44" ry="22"
fill="#ffffff" stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6"/>
</g>
</svg>

[William ML Leslie]

Very cool, thank you Mike!

I might have a play with this and see if I can make it look like the arrows and circle are all coplanar and that the arrows are at right angles in the rotated plane.  I wonder if the intention was for the arrowheads to be two cones back-to-back.  It's easy to read a lot into 1024 pixels.

--

William ML Leslie

[Mark S. Miller]

Hi Mike, looks great!

Mike and William,

If you intend to display this at a significantly larger scale, you should undo the compromises I made for the 32x32 version: 

• The blue arrow should begin inside the message, marked with a small solid circle, rather than at the edge of the message. The visual language should make it clear that the message rides on the black arrow (as if on a monorail track), and that the message carries the tail of the blue arrow.
• The actual tail of the black arrow in the lower left corner of the diagram should also be a small solid circle. This further emphasizes that the black arrow portion that seems to be emerging from the message is not the true arrow, but rather only a component of the longer black arrow.
• The message should itself be an outline of a thick stubby arrow, to make the direction clear.
• If you make the message into an arrow, it should ride the black arrow a bit off center, to further avoid the misimpression that the final black arrow portion emerges from the message arrow's tip.

Other differences from the standard Granovetter diagram are intentional to suggest the lambda shape.

• Alice, Bob, and Carol are absent.
• The reference arrow from Alice to Carol is absent.
• All lines are straight.
• The shadows are absent.
• The method name is absent.

On Wed, Jan 14, 2026 at 2:17 AM William ML Leslie <william.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very cool, thank you Mike!

I might have a play with this and see if I can make it look like the arrows and circle are all coplanar

In what ways do they not seem coplanar to you?

 

and that the arrows are at right angles in the rotated plane. 

I don't understand.

 

I wonder if the intention was for the arrowheads to be two cones back-to-back.

Certainly, each arrowhead could be a cone. What does "back-to-back" mean here?

 

  It's easy to read a lot into 1024 pixels.

Much was indeed lost to fit into that!

 

--

William ML Leslie

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  Cheers,
  --MarkM

[Mark S. Miller]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2026 at 9:36 PM Tony Arcieri <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not quite sure if this is what you're after, but awhile ago I made a vector version of the Granovetter diagram

Hi Tony,

Since you drew this for a larger area display, I'll apply my same checklist to it:

• The blue arrow should begin inside the message, marked with a small solid circle, rather than at the edge of the message. The visual language should make it clear that the message rides on the black arrow (as if on a monorail track), and that the message carries the tail of the blue arrow.

Yours is missing that too.

• The actual tail of the black arrow in the lower left corner of the diagram should also be a small solid circle. This further emphasizes that the black arrow portion that seems to be emerging from the message is not the true arrow, but rather only a component of the longer black arrow.

That's the arrow from Alice to Bob, which you got right.

• The message should itself be an outline of a thick stubby arrow, to make the direction clear.

Check.

• If you make the message into an arrow, it should ride the black arrow a bit off center, to further avoid the misimpression that the final black arrow portion emerges from the message arrow's tip.

You got that wrong. Consequently, the relationship between the message and the Alice-to-Bob arrow is visually unclear. By making it off center, IMO the easiest interpretation left is that the message is riding on the arrow. (Thanks Ken Kahn for this point: Unneeded symmetry often creates visual coincidences that distract from the intended meaning.)

 

On Mon, Jan 12, 2026 at 10:29 PM William ML Leslie <william.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

Is there a large version of the E logo with the Granovetter Lambda feature?  I thought it was a hero image on erights.org, but it's possible I hallucinated this.  There's only a 32x32 version in the footer navigation, a favicon, and the walnut version.

--

William ML Leslie

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Tony Arcieri

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  Cheers,
  --MarkM

[William ML Leslie]

Playing with your ideas, I got this.  Here's the source if anyone else wants to play.

You can see the linecaps showing through, I find them kind of endearing.

<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="400" height="400"
viewBox="0 0 400 400">
  <defs>
    <!-- Arrowheads -->
    <marker id="arrow-black" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="9" refY="5"
            markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">

      <path d="M 0 2 L 10 5 L 2 8 L 0 5 z" fill="#000000"/>

    </marker>

    <marker id="arrow-blue" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="9" refY="5"
            markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">

      <path d="M 1 2 L 10 5 L 0 8 L 0 6 z" fill="#1f5fbf"/>

    </marker>

  </defs>

  <!-- White background -->
  <rect x="0" y="0" width="400" height="400" fill="#ffffff"/>

  <!-- Blue "E" moved left -->
  <text x="130" y="240"
        font-family="Times New Roman, Times, serif"
        font-size="240"
        fill="#1f5fbf"
        text-anchor="middle"
        dominant-baseline="middle">
    E
  </text>

  <!-- Black arrow: lower-right to top-middle (smaller arrowhead) -->
  <line x1="340" y1="320" x2="220" y2="60"
        stroke="#000000" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-black)"/>

  <!-- Sender -->
  <g transform="translate(340 320) rotate(-112)">
    <ellipse cx="0" cy="0" rx="22" ry="11" fill="#000000" />
  </g>

  <!-- drawing the "message" arrow.  it might have been more sensible
       to scale everything by (6, 13) and translate but you get the gist. -->
  <polyline points="262,96,262,158,275,152,335,282,
                    357,270,291,146,304,140,262,96"
            fill="#ffffff" stroke="black" stroke-width="2"
            stroke-dasharray="5,5"/>

  <!-- Blue arrow FIRST (so its tail is covered by the ellipse) -->

  <line x1="305" y1="185" x2="220" y2="340"

        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />

  <g transform="translate(305 185) rotate(-112)">
    <ellipse cx="0" cy="0" rx="22" ry="11"
             fill="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="0"/>
  </g>

</svg>

On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 at 12:14, Mark S. Miller <eri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike, looks great!

Mike and William,

If you intend to display this at a significantly larger scale, you should undo the compromises I made for the 32x32 version: 

• The blue arrow should begin inside the message, marked with a small solid circle, rather than at the edge of the message. The visual language should make it clear that the message rides on the black arrow (as if on a monorail track), and that the message carries the tail of the blue arrow.
• The actual tail of the black arrow in the lower left corner of the diagram should also be a small solid circle. This further emphasizes that the black arrow portion that seems to be emerging from the message is not the true arrow, but rather only a component of the longer black arrow.
• The message should itself be an outline of a thick stubby arrow, to make the direction clear.
• If you make the message into an arrow, it should ride the black arrow a bit off center, to further avoid the misimpression that the final black arrow portion emerges from the message arrow's tip.

Other differences from the standard Granovetter diagram are intentional to suggest the lambda shape.

• Alice, Bob, and Carol are absent.
• The reference arrow from Alice to Carol is absent.
• All lines are straight.
• The shadows are absent.
• The method name is absent.

On Wed, Jan 14, 2026 at 2:17 AM William ML Leslie <william.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very cool, thank you Mike!

I might have a play with this and see if I can make it look like the arrows and circle are all coplanar

In what ways do they not seem coplanar to you?

They seem coplanar in the 32x32 version, but I don't know that the recreation really conveyed that.  Maybe it was the flat arrowheads.  For a while I thought it might be the rotation on the ellipse, but I ended up retaining that in the perspective version above.

 

 

and that the arrows are at right angles in the rotated plane. 

I don't understand.

I don't have an analogue clock handy, but if I did, and it was 8 minutes to 8 o'clock on the wall to my right, it'd have just the right perspective to look like the lambda.

 

I wonder if the intention was for the arrowheads to be two cones back-to-back.

Certainly, each arrowhead could be a cone. What does "back-to-back" mean here?

Like the head of a dart, where the back of the head is convex, rather than concave like a traditional hunting arrow.  I recreated that slightly in my version above.

 

 

  It's easy to read a lot into 1024 pixels.

Much was indeed lost to fit into that!

This was a lot more fun than I expected to have with the question!

--

William ML Leslie

[William ML Leslie]

Also, a flatter one with a smaller message.  I really didn't like this one at first, but it is growing on me.

  <g transform="translate(-10 20)">
    <polyline points="262,96,262,158,275,152,317,243,
                      339,231,291,146,304,140,262,96"

              fill="#ffffff" stroke="black" stroke-width="2"
              stroke-dasharray="5,5"/>

  </g>

  <!-- Blue arrow FIRST (so its tail is covered by the ellipse) -->

  <line x1="285" y1="185" x2="200" y2="340"

        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />

  <g transform="translate(285 185) rotate(-112)">

    <ellipse cx="0" cy="0" rx="22" ry="11"
             fill="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="0"/>
  </g>

</svg>

--

William ML Leslie

[Mark S. Miller]

This one is great, thanks!

Please try making the message arrow even shorter.

  Cheers,
  --MarkM

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[Matt Rice]

I hesitate to mention it, but it could be fun to have a version of the logo that was

designed to look good embedded within a qr code?

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/friam/CAK5yZYgXq7iNu3TLLsmzC69TtSj76%3DcwmHvZUDJE%2Bc5Z1QQ8jA%40mail.gmail.com.

[William ML Leslie]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2026 at 03:36, Mark S. Miller <eri...@gmail.com> wrote:

This one is great, thanks!

Please try making the message arrow even shorter.

That's a great idea.  How short would you like it?  Should I make it thicker so it's not getting lost under the blue ellipse?

--

William ML Leslie

[Mark S. Miller]

Yes, shorter and thicker. Say 25% shorter and twice as thick. Guessing.

Also, why are the arrow start markers solid ellipses rather than solid circles? As circles, their diameter should equal the short dimension of your ellipses.

After looking at the arrow heads, I finally had a moment of non-planar interpretation, so I think I now understand what you're getting at. However, it was only a moment, and I now only see a flat interpretation.

Curious what you intend to use this for?

Thanks!

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  Cheers,
  --MarkM

[William ML Leslie]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2026 at 09:54, Mark S. Miller <eri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, shorter and thicker. Say 25% shorter and twice as thick. Guessing.

Also, why are the arrow start markers solid ellipses rather than solid circles? As circles, their diameter should equal the short dimension of your ellipses.

After looking at the arrow heads, I finally had a moment of non-planar interpretation, so I think I now understand what you're getting at. However, it was only a moment, and I now only see a flat interpretation.

I'd better trust the author, I guess!  I think the ellipse came from Mike trying to recreate the tiny image.  Was that supposed to be a message in the 32x32 version?

 

Curious what you intend to use this for?

At work I have been rotating my avatar through programming languages that I love, posting some text about what is special about the language.  You might notice my profile picture in Google is the Agda logo; Agda being one of my favourite total and dependently-typed languages - I decided I liked it so much I changed the profile picture in my own google account, too.  I wanted to put my best foot forward for E, hence my interest in a high-res version.

--

William ML Leslie

[William ML Leslie]

? logo <- renderToPNG()

<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="400" height="400"
viewBox="0 0 400 400">
  <defs>
    <!-- Arrowheads -->
    <marker id="arrow-black" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="9" refY="5"
            markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">

      <path d="M 0 2 L 10 5 L 2 8 L 0 6 z" fill="#000000"/>

    </marker>

    <marker id="arrow-blue" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="9" refY="5"
            markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">
      <path d="M 1 2 L 10 5 L 0 8 L 0 6 z" fill="#1f5fbf"/>
    </marker>

  </defs>

  <!-- White background -->
  <rect x="0" y="0" width="400" height="400" fill="#ffffff"/>

  <!-- Blue "E" moved left -->
  <text x="130" y="240"
        font-family="Times New Roman, Times, serif"
        font-size="240"
        fill="#1f5fbf"
        text-anchor="middle"
        dominant-baseline="middle">
    E
  </text>

  <!-- Black arrow: lower-right to top-middle (smaller arrowhead) -->
  <line x1="340" y1="320" x2="220" y2="60"
        stroke="#000000" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-black)"/>

  <!-- Sender -->
  <g transform="translate(340 320) rotate(-112)">

    <circle cx="0" cy="0" r="11" fill="#000000" />
  </g>

  <!-- drawing the "message" arrow. -->
  <g transform="translate(284 198) rotate(-25) translate(0 -8)">
    <polygon points="0,-30,48,0,24,0,24,40,-24,40,-24,0,-48,0"
             fill="#ffffff" stroke="black" stroke-width="1"
             stroke-dasharray="2,2"/>

  </g>

  <!-- Blue arrow FIRST (so its tail is covered by the ellipse) -->

  <line x1="284" y1="198" x2="200" y2="340"

        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />

  <g transform="translate(284 198)">
    <circle cx="0" cy="0" r="11" fill="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="0" />
  </g>

</svg>

--

William ML Leslie

[William ML Leslie]

Whoops, forgot to scale the outline -

             stroke-dasharray="5,5"/>

  </g>

  <!-- Blue arrow FIRST (so its tail is covered by the ellipse) -->
  <line x1="284" y1="198" x2="200" y2="340"
        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />
  <g transform="translate(284 198)">
    <circle cx="0" cy="0" r="11" fill="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="0" />
  </g>

</svg>

--

William ML Leslie

[William ML Leslie]

So sorry -

             fill="#ffffff" stroke="black" stroke-width="2"

             stroke-dasharray="5,5"/>
  </g>

  <!-- Blue arrow FIRST (so its tail is covered by the ellipse) -->
  <line x1="284" y1="198" x2="200" y2="340"
        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />
  <g transform="translate(284 198)">
    <circle cx="0" cy="0" r="11" fill="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="0" />
  </g>

</svg>

--

William ML Leslie

[William ML Leslie]

How are we feeling about this one? Touched up the symmetry and stylised the arrows again.

<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="400" height="400"
viewBox="0 0 400 400">
  <defs>
    <!-- Arrowheads -->

    <marker id="arrow-black" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="8" refY="5"

            markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">

      <path d="M 10 5 L 1 8 L 2 5 L 1 2 z" fill="#000000"/>
    </marker>

    <marker id="arrow-blue" viewBox="0 0 10 10" refX="8" refY="5"

            markerWidth="10" markerHeight="10" orient="auto">

      <path d="M 10 5 L 1 8 L 2 5 L 1 2 z" fill="#1f5fbf"/>

    </marker>

  </defs>

  <!-- White background -->
  <rect x="0" y="0" width="400" height="400" fill="#ffffff"/>

  <!-- Blue "E" moved left -->
  <text x="130" y="240"
        font-family="Times New Roman, Times, serif"
        font-size="240"
        fill="#1f5fbf"
        text-anchor="middle"
        dominant-baseline="middle">
    E
  </text>

  <!-- Black arrow: lower-right to top-middle -->

  <line x1="340" y1="320" x2="220" y2="60"
        stroke="#000000" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-black)"/>

  <!-- Target -->

  <g transform="translate(340 320) rotate(-112)">
    <circle cx="0" cy="0" r="11" fill="#000000" />
  </g>

  <!-- drawing the "message" arrow. -->
  <g transform="translate(284 198) rotate(-25) translate(0 -8)">
    <polygon points="0,-30,48,0,24,0,24,40,-24,40,-24,0,-48,0"
             fill="#ffffff" stroke="black" stroke-width="2"
             stroke-dasharray="5,5"/>
  </g>

  <!-- Blue arrow -->
  <line x1="284" y1="198" x2="220" y2="340"

        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />
  <g transform="translate(284 198)">
    <circle cx="0" cy="0" r="11" fill="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="0" />
  </g>

</svg>

--

William ML Leslie

[William ML Leslie]

Ah, I missed the bit about symmetry, and also misread the bit about the message arrow being an outline.  Here's another go.

  <g transform="translate(300 195) rotate(-25) translate(0 -8)">
    <polygon points="0,-30,48,0,24,0,24,40,-24,40,-24,0,-48,0"
             fill="#ffffff" stroke="black" stroke-width="5"
             stroke-linejoin="bevel" />

  </g>

  <!-- Blue arrow -->

  <line x1="300" y1="195" x2="220" y2="340"

        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />

  <g transform="translate(300 195)">

[William ML Leslie]

Slope of the blue arrow bugged me a little. Is this message placement ok?

  <g transform="translate(300 184) rotate(-25) translate(0 -8)">

    <polygon points="0,-30,48,0,24,0,24,40,-24,40,-24,0,-48,0"
             fill="#ffffff" stroke="black" stroke-width="5"
             stroke-linejoin="bevel" />
  </g>

  <!-- Blue arrow -->

  <line x1="300" y1="184" x2="212" y2="340"

        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />

  <g transform="translate(300 184)">

    <circle cx="0" cy="0" r="11" fill="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="0" />
  </g>

</svg>

--

William ML Leslie

[Mark S. Miller]

Good you restored being of center. But out should be less off center than that.

My 32x32 had a message that was less than an arrow, and no arrow start dots. So I interpreted Mike’s ellipse as the message.

  Cheers,
  --MarkM

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[Mark S. Miller]

  Cheers,
  --MarkM

On Fri, Jan 23, 2026 at 11:51 AM Mark S. Miller <eri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good you restored being of center. But out should be less off center than that.

Should be

… off center. But it …

[William ML Leslie]

  <g transform="translate(294 197) rotate(-25) translate(0 -8)">

    <polygon points="0,-30,48,0,24,0,24,40,-24,40,-24,0,-48,0"
             fill="#ffffff" stroke="black" stroke-width="5"
             stroke-linejoin="bevel" />
  </g>

  <!-- Blue arrow -->

  <line x1="294" y1="197" x2="220" y2="353"

        stroke="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="6" stroke-linecap="round"
        marker-end="url(#arrow-blue)" />

  <g transform="translate(294 197)">

    <circle cx="0" cy="0" r="11" fill="#1f5fbf" stroke-width="0" />
  </g>

</svg>

--

William ML Leslie

[Mark S. Miller]

Perfect!

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  Cheers,
  --MarkM

[Matt Rice]

Think it would look more like a lambda if the black circle and the point of the blue arrow were aligned at the bottom edge.

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[William ML Leslie]

Ah! The challenge is to balance the features, the consistency of the angles, and the scale. Maybe you can solve it, Mike?

William ML Leslie

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