Can HVAC be used as 1D tunnel ventilation tool?

[fde]

A simple 1D tunnel ventilation tool can calculate single bore and fixed cross section. More advanced ones calculate forking, parallel and varying cross-section tunnels.  HVAC in FDS has a lot of features at the moment. Do you think it can be a basis for 1D ventilation tool for tunnels or is it a complete different tool in terms of purpose (regarding calculations behind)?

Thank you.

[Randy McDermott]

There are at least a couple of efforts to use HVAC in this sort of application.  The first is so-called hybrid tunnel modeling by Guillermo Rein's group (Wolfram Jahn, I think, but not sure).  Then more recently Ben Ralph and Jason Floyd added mass transport to HVAC so that smoke movement, etc., could be tracked.  But as with all tunnel scenarios, the validation is light at this point.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 3:15 AM, fde <yilmaz....@gmail.com> wrote:

A simple 1D tunnel ventilation tool can calculate single bore and fixed cross section. More advanced ones calculate forking, parallel and varying cross-section tunnels.  HVAC in FDS has a lot of features at the moment. Do you think it can be a basis for 1D ventilation tool for tunnels or is it a complete different tool in terms of purpose (regarding calculations behind)?

Thank you.

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[fde]

Hopefully this will be studied further. 

As for validation as you said there might be a limited number of study available but is it an option to do a verification based on the comparative study of results of the FDS HVAC and a tunnel ventilation calculation guide or an acknowledged 1D tunnel ventilation tool? 

On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 12:13:02 PM UTC+2, Randy McDermott wrote:

There are at least a couple of efforts to use HVAC in this sort of application.  The first is so-called hybrid tunnel modeling by Guillermo Rein's group (Wolfram Jahn, I think, but not sure).  Then more recently Ben Ralph and Jason Floyd added mass transport to HVAC so that smoke movement, etc., could be tracked.  But as with all tunnel scenarios, the validation is light at this point.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 3:15 AM, fde <yilmaz....@gmail.com> wrote:

A simple 1D tunnel ventilation tool can calculate single bore and fixed cross section. More advanced ones calculate forking, parallel and varying cross-section tunnels.  HVAC in FDS has a lot of features at the moment. Do you think it can be a basis for 1D ventilation tool for tunnels or is it a complete different tool in terms of purpose (regarding calculations behind)?

Thank you.

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[dr_jfloyd]

Using a model validated for a specific application as a numerical "experiment" to test a new model for that application is a form of validation. It is generally not considered as strong a method as comparison against real world data since you may not have as good an estimate of the error in the data from the "experiment".

[fde]

I understand. Nevertheless, it is good to know that FDS HVAC has the potential to improve.

Thank you

[Ben Ralph]

Take a look at Vermesi et al 2017 and Ang et al 2016; both in Tunnelling and Underground Space Technology. Both attempted to use FDS/HVAC for tunnel applications. HVAC has been updated a lot since these works (including changes to coupling method) so I'd expect results to differ. FYI I have a literature review of coupled hybrid modelling methods in fire science and engineering applications which is currently under review. When it gets published I'll post here to let you know

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[fde]

Amazing! Thank you for informing in advance. 

I do not plan to develop any model/project, I only was interested in the state of the art applications. I will look into those papers you mentioned.

[Ben Ralph]

Just to close the loop from my previous post. The literature review has now been published. Doesn't deal with just FDS and HVAC but coupled hybrid modelling in fire safety engineering using any simulation platform

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379711217303028

Enjoy!