The anecdote of Moon landing

[Cosmin Visan]

I heard there are a couple of people that claim they've been on the Moon. I asked them to prove it to me by going again, but they said they cannot do it. What do you think ? Is this anecdote true ?

[Telmo Menezes]

Well, I wasn’t born when it happened but my father watched it on TV.

We can never be 100% sure of anything except that we are conscious, but the technology existed and so did the motivation.

I find it astronomically more likely that they really went there than that they managed to maintain such a large conspiracy in secret until now + all the theatrics that would be involved. A lot of people saw that huge Saturn V rocket tacking off.

Telmo.

On 15. May 2019, at 13:18, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I heard there are a couple of people that claim they've been on the Moon. I asked them to prove it to me by going again, but they said they cannot do it. What do you think ? Is this anecdote true ?

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[Cosmin Visan]

Also in cases of telepathy and precognitions the "technology" and the "motivation" existed at the moment of their occurrence. Actually, it seems that the conditions required for paranormal phenomena are being met way more often that the conditions required for Moon landing. So, it appears that if we are to believe such an extraordinarily unlikely event such as Moon landing, that only happened a couple of time in the entire 4.5 billion years history of life on planet Earth, then we are clearly to believe paranormal, which happened quadrillion of times since life on Earth.

[Philip Thrift]

As I pointed out earlier, quantum mechanics allows for a weak (or freak) phenomenon of telepathy and/or precognition.

But how weak is the thing.

@philipthrift

[Telmo Menezes]

On Wed, May 15, 2019, at 13:42, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:

Also in cases of telepathy and precognitions the "technology" and the "motivation" existed at the moment of their occurrence. Actually, it seems that the conditions required for paranormal phenomena are being met way more often that the conditions required for Moon landing. So, it appears that if we are to believe such an extraordinarily unlikely event such as Moon landing, that only happened a couple of time in the entire 4.5 billion years history of life on planet Earth, then we are clearly to believe paranormal, which happened quadrillion of times since life on Earth.

Cosmin, I just expressed my opinion on the moon landing, I don't recall expressing any opinion on telepathy, precognition or paranormal events.

For me, the term "paranormal" is nonsensical. What is meant by "normal"? I guess people usually mean "something not predicted by the current scientific theories". I have no problem accepting that the current scientific theories are incomplete.

Telmo.

On Wednesday, 15 May 2019 15:32:07 UTC+3, telmo wrote:

We can never be 100% sure of anything except that we are conscious, but the technology existed and so did the motivation.

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[Brent Meeker]

On 5/15/2019 10:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
> For me, the term "paranormal" is nonsensical. What is meant by
> "normal"? I guess people usually mean "something not predicted by the
> current scientific theories". I have no problem accepting that the
> current scientific theories are incomplete.

Of course by construction it would mean something like "beside that
which is normal".  But I think it is interesting that people DO NOT

usually mean "something not predicted by the current scientific

theories".  They mean something far more specific.  They mean something
that is evidence for people (including them) potentially having
superhuman powers.  They don't mean dark matter is paranormal or
supersymmetry is paranormal.  They don't mean the reversal of the
Earth's magnetic field is paranormal.  It's like when people ask me if
I've every seen a UFO? ...and I answer, "Yes.  I saw one just the other
day.  I couldn't tell whether it was a Cessna or a Piper."

Brent

[howardmarks]

There have been a number of "precognition hotlines" on the internet in the past, with thousands or millions of hits - but their "batting average" is flat ZERO. One such website is http://thepremonitions.com .
James Randi, now retired (randi.org), had a million dollar challenge for any type of paranormal and/or psychic phenomena  (such as telepathy, etc.), out for 25 years - only condition on getting the money (or giving it to one's favorite charity) was to actually PERFORM. Many many people said they could perform, but, under impartial conditions (even with only cameras as observers if that was the condition) = their batting average was also ZERO.
But, hey, belief has no place in phenomena, unless one is studying why people believe things.
Cheers! Howard

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[Cosmin Visan]

Randi is a charlatan. He (and the people the cite him) has no understanding whatsoever about how science works. He wants from people to do instant magic. But that's not how science works. Even the CERN scientists are making billions of collisions in order to obtain 1 Higgs boson. If it were for Randi, he would never awarded any Nobel prize for the Higgs discovery, because it was not a shocking amazing soap opera performance. Lots of people have demonstrated to this charlatan telepathy and precognition, but he refused to acknowledge them, because they were not straight out hollywood display.

[howardmarks]

In fact, sir, I personally know Randi, having met him at events and by telephone. He is totally NOT a charlatan. He won the MacArthur Prize for his tireless work on exposing charlatans such as Uri Geller (MacArthur Prize usually given to prospective young science students, Randi received it in his 50's), was an amateur astronomer early in his life, and has a great knowledge of the scientific method. No, he doesn't have a degree in the sciences. Yes, he had many advisors who were/are impeccable scientists and professionals. Sorry, you are wrong about Randi.
Cheers! Howard

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[howardmarks]

You have a belief that precognition and telepathy/psychic phenomena are real -  if one looks, using the scientific method, as Randi did, it is impossible to find anyone who can actually perform under controlled conditions that the claimant themselves sets as conditions of a test (even if the test is statistical with the aim of getting a higher score than random - like getting a 60-40 on predicting the flipping of coins, to use a terrible example!).

The total failure of precognition hotlines to show precognition over a couple decades - is quite strong evidence. One must make sure that one uses hard evidence, not hear-say or testimonials.
Cheers! Howard

On 5/16/2019 5:13 AM, howardmarks wrote:

In fact, sir, I personally know Randi, having met him at events and by telephone. He is totally NOT a charlatan. He won the MacArthur Prize for his tireless work on exposing charlatans such as Uri Geller (MacArthur Prize usually given to prospective young science students, Randi received it in his 50's), was an amateur astronomer early in his life, and has a great knowledge of the scientific method. No, he doesn't have a degree in the sciences. Yes, he had many advisors who were/are impeccable scientists and professionals. Sorry, you are wrong about Randi.
Cheers! Howard

On 5/16/2019 2:44 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:

Randi is a charlatan. He (and the people the cite him) has no understanding whatsoever about how science works. He wants from people to do instant magic. But that's not how science works. Even the CERN scientists are making billions of collisions in order to obtain 1 Higgs boson. If it were for Randi, he would never awarded any Nobel prize for the Higgs discovery, because it was not a shocking amazing soap opera performance. Lots of people have demonstrated to this charlatan telepathy and precognition, but he refused to acknowledge them, because they were not straight out hollywood display.

On Thursday, 16 May 2019 05:03:54 UTC+3, howardmarks wrote:

There have been a number of "precognition hotlines" on the internet in the past, with thousands or millions of hits - but their "batting average" is flat ZERO. One such website is http://thepremonitions.com .

James Randi, now retired (randi.org), had a million dollar challenge for any type of paranormal and/or psychic phenomena  (such as telepathy, etc.), out for 25 years - only condition on getting the money (or giving it to one's favorite charity) was to actually PERFORM. Many many people said they could perform, but, under impartial conditions (even with only cameras as observers if that was the condition) = their batting average was also ZERO.

But, hey, belief has no place in phenomena, unless one is studying why people believe things.

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[Cosmin Visan]

In a test in which people are asked to "guess" 1 in 4 pictures, the results are 32% instead of 25%. Telepathy is not only real, but is obviously real. Sorry mate, you need to change your beliefs.

[howardmarks]

Sorry mate, if the issue is about "beliefs" rather than reality, then you are making it a believing game.  Truth is not a believing game. It's not about believing whether telepathy is real - it is about impartially testing claimants under controlled conditions. You are treating your belief in telepathy the same as a Catholic, Muslim, or Hindu treats their belief in their deity.

Yeah, if one does your picture test under uncontrolled conditions, or only a few times, one may obtain such a score as 32. N, the number of times such a test is repeated is very important to eliminate chance. (a coin flip can easily get "heads" three times in a row!) But the content of the pictures must be just as impartial/random to the individual being tested as a random number, otherwise the test is not random.

I was honored to be present one time when a few people were "tested" by Randi's team in Florida. Totally impartial. The claimants, with Randi's people, decided what constituted a demonstration of a psychic capability, with the main emphasis to keep the testing fair, both to the claimant and adhering to the scientific method. Unfortunately, the claimants, when they couldn't perform, most of the time believed the test was unfair..... even though Randi's people "bent over backwards" to assure fairness.
Cheers! Howard

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:18:47 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

I heard there are a couple of people that claim they've been on the Moon. I asked them to prove it to me by going again, but they said they cannot do it. What do you think ? Is this anecdote true ?

When I was a kid I was big on the moon landing. We went on a vacation to Florida and saw one of the Saturn V rockets lift off. The thing is that if these were faked, then NASA built a 370 foot tall rocket that roared off the launch pad only to ditch the thing in the ocean or some such event and then do a studio enactment. If NASA were to build such a machine, why fake it? --- they might as well have gone all the way. 

For a 5 years in the 90s I was employed in spacecraft navigation. I worked the mechanics on how to get a spacecraft to some orbit in space, whether around Earth or out into the solar system, or to reach some other planetary body. I timed my visits to the Kennedy Space Center to watch shuttle launches, one landing and some Delta launches. This stuff is not faked. There is in fact a visitor center where an unused Saturn V rocket is displayed. 

The idea that moon landings are faked is in line with other historical denials, such as holocaust denial or that black slaves in the south really enjoyed their status and so forth. Conspiracy ideas and nonsense about alt-history or alt-science such as creationism (even flat earth stuff is getting popular) are growing in decibel volume these days. It is a sign the minds of people, particularly Americans, are being rubbished up.

LC

[Brent Meeker]

Oh good.  Then let's play.  I've got plenty of sets of four photos.  I'll arrange four in a line and tell Howard which one I'm thinking of, and you can tell him which one I'm thinking of using your obviously real telepathy and we'll see if you can do better than chance.  OK?

Brent

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 15 May 2019, at 15:15, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:

As I pointed out earlier, quantum mechanics allows for a weak (or freak) phenomenon of telepathy and/or precognition.

But how weak is the thing.

Telepathy would be easy to explain by the radio waves that people emits with their brain. It is actually astonishing there are not much evidence for it.

Some defines telepathy as being instantaneous communication. That makes it very doubtful, and in this case there are zero evidences that I know of.Reports of special or personal experiences cannot be taken into account.

Bruno

@philipthrift

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:42:25 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

Also in cases of telepathy and precognitions the "technology" and the "motivation" existed at the moment of their occurrence. Actually, it seems that the conditions required for paranormal phenomena are being met way more often that the conditions required for Moon landing. So, it appears that if we are to believe such an extraordinarily unlikely event such as Moon landing, that only happened a couple of time in the entire 4.5 billion years history of life on planet Earth, then we are clearly to believe paranormal, which happened quadrillion of times since life on Earth.

On Wednesday, 15 May 2019 15:32:07 UTC+3, telmo wrote:

We can never be 100% sure of anything except that we are conscious, but the technology existed and so did the motivation.

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[Cosmin Visan]

Telepathy is not information transmission. Telepathy is consciousnesses unifications: 2 or more consciousnesses unify, they live a common experience, and then they split back apart, all remembering the shared experience.

Personal experiences are all there is, since consciousness is all there is. Ignoring them only shows that you are an irrational indoctrinated dogmatic believer, with which no discussion can take place.

[Terren Suydam]

If there isn't a word for this, there should be, to name the situation when someone makes some insulting claim that is best understood as a projection of one's own justified fear of how they're perceived. Trump does it all the time.

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:05 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Telepathy is not information transmission. Telepathy is consciousnesses unifications: 2 or more consciousnesses unify, they live a common experience, and then they split back apart, all remembering the shared experience.

Personal experiences are all there is, since consciousness is all there is. Ignoring them only shows that you are an irrational indoctrinated dogmatic believer, with which no discussion can take place.

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[John Clark]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 8:42 AM 'Cosmin Visan'  <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Also in cases of telepathy and precognitions the "technology" and the "motivation" existed at the moment of their occurrence. Actually, it seems that the conditions required for paranormal phenomena are being met way more often that the conditions required for Moon landing.

If you're right about that then it should be easy to find ironclad evidence within the month that will convince even the most skeptical editors of journals like Physical Review Letters, Nature or Science that telepathy and precognition actually exist. So let's make a bet and I'll give you 10 to one odds; if a pro ESP article appears before June 17 2019 in any of those journals I'll give you $10,000, if it doesn't you only have to give me $100. And remember the article doesn't need to explain why the phenomena exists it just has to show that something exists that needs explaining, So do we have a bet?

 John K Clark

 

[Cosmin Visan]

Stating the obvious is not insulting. If a phenomenon is real and you say is not, what else are you if not a irrational dogmatic believer in materialism ?

[Terren Suydam]

A skeptic.

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[howardmarks]

Just because an article in a journal of APS, AAAS (both organizations of which I am a member), or Nature appears, doesn't mean the subject matter of the article is true. I had an EE educated father with a dozen patents that "believed" in psychic phenomena, and helping him investigate was very sobering, as all leads ended in a brick wall - when it came to actually performing. That's how I met Randi. So much anecdotal "evidence." But the bottom line was, all anecdotes, when one does due diligence to see the performance - can't demonstrate, without exception. And, Cosmin, if you would actually investigate, rather than decide how "believable" anecdotal stories are - you might change your "beliefs!"
Cheers! Howard Marks

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[Brent Meeker]

On 5/17/2019 7:05 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:
> Telepathy is not information transmission. Telepathy is
> consciousnesses unifications: 2 or more consciousnesses unify, they
> live a common experience, and then they split back apart, all
> remembering the shared experience.

But not transmitting information.

Brent

[Cosmin Visan]

Landing on the Moon is anecdotal, since is only reported by 3 people. Telepathies are reported by 7 billion people all the time, including me, so they are not anecdotal. They are like breathing. Everybody breaths. And if you say you never had telepathies, you lie.

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 4:12:24 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

Landing on the Moon is anecdotal, since is only reported by 3 people. Telepathies are reported by 7 billion people all the time, including me, so they are not anecdotal. They are like breathing. Everybody breaths. And if you say you never had telepathies, you lie.

What balderdash! By this reasoning since Abraham Lincoln, Pope Julius II and Alexander the Great are dead and all who lived in their time are all dead they and the events involved with them are all anecdotal.

LC

[Brent Meeker]

Whereas if you say a phenomenon is real and common, but you're unwilling to demonstrate it you are a charlatan.

Brent

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[Cosmin Visan]

What do you mean "demonstrate it" ? Do you ask people to demonstrate to you that they are breathing ?

On Saturday, 18 May 2019 00:41:30 UTC+3, Brent wrote:

Whereas if you say a phenomenon is real and common, but you're unwilling to demonstrate it you are a charlatan.

Brent

On 5/17/2019 8:30 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:

Stating the obvious is not insulting. If a phenomenon is real and you say is not, what else are you if not a irrational dogmatic believer in materialism ?

On Friday, 17 May 2019 17:20:03 UTC+3, Terren Suydam wrote:

If there isn't a word for this, there should be, to name the situation when someone makes some insulting claim that is best understood as a projection of one's own justified fear of how they're perceived. Trump does it all the time.

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[Cosmin Visan]

Of course. Do you think that what they teach you at school is the truth ? History is invented by the winners. History is just an anecdotal story.

[John Clark]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:22 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 4:12:24 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

>>Landing on the Moon is anecdotal, since is only reported by 3 people. Telepathies are reported by 7 billion people all the time, including me, so they are not anecdotal. They are like breathing. Everybody breaths. And if you say you never had telepathies, you lie.

>What balderdash!

I think you're being much too polite, Cosmin Visan is the sort of man who gives balderdash a bad name. I'd call it pure extra virgin 100% Bullshit.

 John K Clark

[Brent Meeker]

On 5/17/2019 2:12 PM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:
> Landing on the Moon is anecdotal, since is only reported by 3 people.
> Telepathies are reported by 7 billion people all the time, including
> me, so they are not anecdotal.

Then it should be easy for you to demonstrate your powers to telepathy.

Brent

[Brent Meeker]

I would if they claimed they could breathe under water.  I'll leave it to you.  I suggested you name some of the books I'm looking at above my computer monitor.  But propose whatever you want.

Brent

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[howardmarks]

Reports on anything, from telepathy, to precognition, to global warming/climate change, Y2K are STORIES, subject to verification with hard evidence and the scientific method.
Lots of people have "premonitions" and beliefs they experience telepathy..... The premonition hotlines have demonstrated premonitions as false - not one in 100's of 1000's (maybe millions) of submissions was a hit, not just by http://thepremonitions.com  but by maybe 6 other similar hotlines over the last 20 years.

Problem is - people make hundreds of guesses as to what might be happening somewhere else, or what someone is thinking. And some, like YOU, likely never figure in wrong guesses. And when, by luck, a guess is confirmed as a "hit," you call it premonition or telepathy..... Sorry, that is the opposite of the scientific method.
 
James Randi and hundreds of others have tirelessly listened to the stories (you call them reports, Cosmin) of 10's of 1000's of people claiming PSI capability. Why? Because we feel that these claimants may have the greatest probability of actually performing psychic feats since they claim they can. Randi's applicants must agree to be impartially tested using the scientific method, which, if you are familiar with it, demands that an investigator create falsifiable hypotheses with the aim of demonstrating a hypothesis "true" or "false." Prejudice or charlatanism doesn't figure into tests, as they are proctored by people that really want to establish PSI as real, including the claimant!

I don't lie - but yes, I have made many "guesses" about what people may have been thinking or events happening - and occasionally I get a hit. But I don't lie to myself and call it a premonition or telepathy.
Cheers!
Howard Marks

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[John Clark]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 7:26 PM howardmarks <howar...@doitnow.com> wrote:

> Lots of people have "premonitions" and beliefs they experience telepathy

Richard Feynman has a story about that. One day when he was a undergraduate out of the blue he suddenly had a premonition that his grandmother had died, seconds later somebody shouted "Hey Feynman there's a phone call for you". He walked to the phone in dread only to learn it was just another student telling him he left his textbook in the classroom. And it turned out grandma was fine. The moral is premonitions are common but correct premonitions are rare, however if you ignore the many false ones and concentrate of the very few correct ones eventually you are bound to find some remarkable coincidences. And even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

It's very easy to fool yourself this way and discover what you very much want to discover, that's why places like CERN must have at least five sigma confidence before they can claim a discovery; that means there is only one chance in 3.5 million that what they saw was due to chance.

John K Clark

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 4:45:25 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

Of course. Do you think that what they teach you at school is the truth ? History is invented by the winners. History is just an anecdotal story.

History is nuanced, but I think we can be sure that Julius Caesar was real, he lead a campaign in Gaul and was killed at the forum by Cassius and Brutus. What is uncertain are all the particularities. History is an approximate perspective, but it is of some factual relevancy.

LC

[Cosmin Visan]

You lie to yourself calling it "coincidence". =)))))))))))) Only because you want social status and in your worldview, being a "rational materialist" is what gives people social status. Unfortunately, for lucid people you are just a irational dogmatic believer, so you have 0 social status.

[Bruno Marchal]

It is very sad sign that education has been lowering down for sometimes. It confirms my feeling that fake theologies, like in most religious institutions is a bad training in argument per-authority. 

We will leave the Middle-Âge and obscurantism when theology will be returned back at the faculty of science, where we are humble and modest, never claim truth, and propose theories with means of evaluation.

The separation of science and theology has separated the human and the exact sciences making them both inexact and inhuman.

Bruno

LC

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 17 May 2019, at 16:05, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Telepathy is not information transmission. Telepathy is consciousnesses unifications: 2 or more consciousnesses unify, they live a common experience, and then they split back apart, all remembering the shared experience.

That happens to me some night, where I do two simultaneous dream. That has been discovered already by Jouvet, and he explains it by the corpus callous being sleepy. 

Personal experiences are all there is, since consciousness is all there is. Ignoring them only shows that you are an irrational indoctrinated dogmatic believer, with which no discussion can take place.

You might give reference to the publications, if you think some are deserving some scrutiny, but I have often asked this, and there tuns of loopholes. I remain open minded, but the unwillingness of those who defend the ideas to look at the loophole, or the erroneous statistics, has discouraged me to proceed in that direction. 

I am open to NDE, OBE, lucid dreams, but telepathy is usually not even well defined, and I see no evidences, and in the way the experiences are done, there would be evidences, between different brains,  I would explain them by radio-waves. But I have not found evidences. 

Bruno

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 17 May 2019, at 16:19, Terren Suydam <terren...@gmail.com> wrote:

If there isn't a word for this, there should be, to name the situation when someone makes some insulting claim that is best understood as a projection of one's own justified fear of how they're perceived. Trump does it all the time.

It is one of its main technic. Also, he lies publicly in a way that you could not interrupt him, making you accomplices, by little steps, and at some point, you can’t go back. It is typical of moral harrasment.

And, yes, Cosmin Visan seems to do that too. All people claiming to know the truth act like this, but not all are malevolent, I mean, intentionally malevolent. 

Bruno

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:05 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Telepathy is not information transmission. Telepathy is consciousnesses unifications: 2 or more consciousnesses unify, they live a common experience, and then they split back apart, all remembering the shared experience.

Personal experiences are all there is, since consciousness is all there is. Ignoring them only shows that you are an irrational indoctrinated dogmatic believer, with which no discussion can take place.

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 17 May 2019, at 17:30, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Stating the obvious is not insulting.

The whole point is that, at the least, telepathy is NOT obvious. 

Bruno

If a phenomenon is real and you say is not, what else are you if not a irrational dogmatic believer in materialism ?

On Friday, 17 May 2019 17:20:03 UTC+3, Terren Suydam wrote:

If there isn't a word for this, there should be, to name the situation when someone makes some insulting claim that is best understood as a projection of one's own justified fear of how they're perceived. Trump does it all the time.

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 5:55:19 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 16 May 2019, at 14:13, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:18:47 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

I heard there are a couple of people that claim they've been on the Moon. I asked them to prove it to me by going again, but they said they cannot do it. What do you think ? Is this anecdote true ?

When I was a kid I was big on the moon landing. We went on a vacation to Florida and saw one of the Saturn V rockets lift off. The thing is that if these were faked, then NASA built a 370 foot tall rocket that roared off the launch pad only to ditch the thing in the ocean or some such event and then do a studio enactment. If NASA were to build such a machine, why fake it? --- they might as well have gone all the way. 

For a 5 years in the 90s I was employed in spacecraft navigation. I worked the mechanics on how to get a spacecraft to some orbit in space, whether around Earth or out into the solar system, or to reach some other planetary body. I timed my visits to the Kennedy Space Center to watch shuttle launches, one landing and some Delta launches. This stuff is not faked. There is in fact a visitor center where an unused Saturn V rocket is displayed. 

The idea that moon landings are faked is in line with other historical denials, such as holocaust denial or that black slaves in the south really enjoyed their status and so forth. Conspiracy ideas and nonsense about alt-history or alt-science such as creationism (even flat earth stuff is getting popular) are growing in decibel volume these days. It is a sign the minds of people, particularly Americans, are being rubbished up.

It is very sad sign that education has been lowering down for sometimes. It confirms my feeling that fake theologies, like in most religious institutions is a bad training in argument per-authority. 

We will leave the Middle-Âge and obscurantism when theology will be returned back at the faculty of science, where we are humble and modest, never claim truth, and propose theories with means of evaluation.

The separation of science and theology has separated the human and the exact sciences making them both inexact and inhuman.

Bruno

I would question to what extent theology has been ever a faculty of science. Since I presume most people on this list are Christian I will use that, where if you think about it Jesus turning water into wine is not really that different an idea from Cinderella's fairy godmother turning mice and a pumpkin into a team of horses bridled to a carriage. In both instances you have some supernatural being, or a being capable of supernatural powers, able to convert matter from one form to another by shear force of thought or will. The difference is the narrative about Jesus is offered up as absolute divine truth and the story about Cinderella is a bit more honest and is framed as a fairy tale. 

Now with theology we can push this into metaphor, where Jesus making wine out of water is symbolic of going from baptism to communion. Lazarus being raised from the dead is also a suspension of natural principles, where as the narrative has it Lazarus was pretty far gone and dead for 3 days, but Jesus raising him from death. That violates of course thermodynamic principles. The metaphor however could be made this is about discarding old ways with dirty rags and decay for a new sort of vibrant life. The three days also stand in for the resurrection motif. I would though say that even if one does take these are purely metaphorical that this is not so much science, but rather language arts and literature.

LC 

[Cosmin Visan]

Telepathy happens when you interact with people in real life. Do you interact with people ?

[howardmarks]

Your definition of telepathy is not part of reality, when no evidence exists, no matter how hard one searches for evidence of "telepathy". That little voice in your head that you believe (not know) is not evidence of telepathy.

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[Cosmin Visan]

Sorry mate, your ignorance doesn't stand for lack of evidence.

http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

[howardmarks]

Ignorance of what? Telepathy is defined as some sort of "communication" by all who claim they have it.

If you think that the dialogue going on in your head - when you think of someone - is telepathy, then you are mistaken. But demo it.

As Bruno says, "and I see no evidences" sums it up - his conclusion and 100 years of scientific investigation by PSICOP (Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal) totally agree. Look them up: PSICOP was started in the 19th century to investigate such claims - of which Randi was a prominent associate -
But, Cosmin, if you have (other than anecdotal) evidence of telepathy, demonstrate it!  That's what science is all about, isn't it?  Demonstrate my ignorance !  We are all happy to say "uncle" if you can demonstrate telepathy or any other psychic capability...

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[howardmarks]

As a footnote to your link for Dean Radin, look through his links - even the first one....  And with small N's, what can be concluded. I'm sure he is honorable, but nevertheless he "believes" what he's writing. My father, similar EE education to Dean Radin, without the PhD, was also a believer, super-impressed by a parlor psychic "show" at Purdue University in 1939 - even though, in his 102 years of life, he never verified anyone as capable....  even though he probably spent 10% of his time investigating.

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[Cosmin Visan]

See ? That's the problem with you irrational materialist dogmatic believers. Even if people gives you evidence, you keep continue yelling "EVIDENCE! EVIDENCE!". Maybe you should consult a psychiatrist or something. You cannot have dialogues with irrational broken records.

[Terren Suydam]

I'll add my voice to those asking you to put up or shut up. Produce an act of telepathy. You name the terms, since you're the one making the claim that you can do it.

But you won't do it, because you can't. That's my clairvoyant prediction. 

On Mon, May 20, 2019, 6:37 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

See ? That's the problem with you irrational materialist dogmatic believers. Even if people gives you evidence, you keep continue yelling "EVIDENCE! EVIDENCE!". Maybe you should consult a psychiatrist or something. You cannot have dialogues with irrational broken records.

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[howardmarks]

Exactly, Terren! 
Cosmin, your "evidence" is mostly anecdotal or experiments made under poor conditions. They are made by Dean Radin, who, it seems, will believe, like my dad, no matter how many times he gets poor or no results. I did look at quite a few of those he had listed. Randomization, which is extremely important, is often non-existent in some of those "reports." Some groups are of "believers." Statistics of small numbers at best, or poor researchers.
To take a couple items, Puthoff, Targ, Ingo Swann I've talked to years ago. They never responded to Ray Hyman's demand they show hard evidence. Government's Operation Stargate (remote viewing) in response to Soviet Union's claims of esp superiority - total absolute failure, in spite of what Radin writes. The scientists controlling stargate, to relax the test subjects, initially fabricated "hits" to put them at ease - before they gave the actual tests. But these test subjects remember those fabricated "hits" as real hits. Ingo Swann was one of those stargaters who still believed he had real remote viewing hits. These believing tested subjects refused to accept  the truth, wrote books badmouthing the government, accusing them of a coverup, etc.  Proof of the pudding is that when Stargate ended, there was no followup, and those who claimed they were capable never got called again. There is no department of ESP.

There are tens of thousands of books written on Christianity, Islam, Hindu, and other religions, which attest to so many miracles, events of healing, etc. Why not believe them? They are just as convincing as Radin's stuff!       Demonstrate or find someone who can.... Anything other than demonstration of something you say is so common - is irrational. We are not dogmatic believers. You are. Cosmin, demonstrate... or find someone who can. You name the terms. My clairvoyance also tells me you won't or can't.

On 5/20/2019 8:23 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:

I'll add my voice to those asking you to put up or shut up. Produce an act of telepathy. You name the terms, since you're the one making the claim that you can do it.

But you won't do it, because you can't. That's my clairvoyant prediction. 

On Mon, May 20, 2019, 6:37 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

See ? That's the problem with you irrational materialist dogmatic believers. Even if people gives you evidence, you keep continue yelling "EVIDENCE! EVIDENCE!". Maybe you should consult a psychiatrist or something. You cannot have dialogues with irrational broken records.

As a footnote to your link for Dean Radin, look through his links - even the first one....  And with small N's, what can be concluded. I'm sure he is honorable, but nevertheless he "believes" what he's writing. My father, similar EE education to Dean Radin, without the PhD, was also a believer, super-impressed by a parlor psychic "show" at Purdue University in 1939 - even though, in his 102 years of life, he never verified anyone as capable....  even though he probably spent 10% of his time investigating.

Ignorance of what? Telepathy is defined as some sort of "communication" by all who claim they have it.
If you think that the dialogue going on in your head - when you think of someone - is telepathy, then you are mistaken. But demo it.

As Bruno says, "and I see no evidences" sums it up - his conclusion and 100 years of scientific investigation by PSICOP (Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal) totally agree. Look them up: PSICOP was started in the 19th century to investigate such claims - of which Randi was a prominent associate -
But, Cosmin, if you have (other than anecdotal) evidence of telepathy, demonstrate it!  That's what science is all about, isn't it?  Demonstrate my ignorance !  We are all happy to say "uncle" if you can demonstrate telepathy or any other psychic capability...

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[Cosmin Visan]

Telepathy doesn't happen necessarily at will. It only happens when certain conditions are being met. Asking someone to produce telepathy on the spot is like asking him to produce Higgs Boson on the spot. So let's do like this: you produce me a Higgs Boson, and I'll produce you a telepathy. If you can't do it, it means Higgs Bosons don't exist. They are just anecdots from a bunch of gurus at CERN.

[Quentin Anciaux]

Ok, let's have you 10000 trials... on these 10000 trials, you should do way better than pure luck... can you ?

So I have a list of 10000 random generated number between 0 and 10^18... gave me a list with 10000 numbers and let's see if you have more than 50% of them, it seems fair to me.

Le mar. 21 mai 2019 à 10:09, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> a écrit :

Telepathy doesn't happen necessarily at will. It only happens when certain conditions are being met. Asking someone to produce telepathy on the spot is like asking him to produce Higgs Boson on the spot. So let's do like this: you produce me a Higgs Boson, and I'll produce you a telepathy. If you can't do it, it means Higgs Bosons don't exist. They are just anecdots from a bunch of gurus at CERN.

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All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer)

[Quentin Anciaux]

Well if you manage to get 4... I will be impressed.

[Cosmin Visan]

Ok, I'll give you 10000 billiard balls to collide. See if you obtain at least 1 Higgs Boson. If you obtain at least 1, I will believe you that Higgs Bosons exist.

[Quentin Anciaux]

https://understandinguncertainty.org/explaining-5-sigma-higgs-how-well-did-they-do  

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[Quentin Anciaux]

That's you who says that telepathy is self evident and common... if it so common, it should be *very very* easy to display such a feature... so stop dodging and show us.

[Cosmin Visan]

If Higgs Boson were real, it should be *very very* easy to show it. So show it to me.

[Quentin Anciaux]

It has been shown with a *valid* statistics... contrary to your *very very* easy and common telepathy.

If telepathy is as hard to get a higgs statistics *it is not easy and common*, that's your assertion that telepathy is easy and common not mine.

Higgs boson *is not easy* we had to build the LHC and do billions of collisions to have a valid statistical result.

So either you lie, if not *show us* how easy and common and uncrontroversial it is.

Le mar. 21 mai 2019 à 11:34, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> a écrit :

If Higgs Boson were real, it should be *very very* easy to show it. So show it to me.

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[Quentin Anciaux]

If telepathy is easy and common, it should be as easy to show and replicate and predict as gravity... not as the higgs boson.

[Cosmin Visan]

Where did I say such a thing ? Copy-paste please and show me where I said.

[Quentin Anciaux]

> Telepathy is not only real, but is obviously real. 

If it is obvious *everybody* should see it, gravity is obvious, gravity is easy to show.

> Stating the obvious is not insulting. If a phenomenon is real and you say is not, what else are you if not a irrational dogmatic believer in materialism ?

If it is obvious *everybody* should see it, gravity is obvious, gravity is easy to show.

> Telepathies are reported by 7 billion people all the time, including me, so they are not anecdotal. They are like breathing. 

If it is like breathing *it is fucking easy to show then*, show us.

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[Cosmin Visan]

I saw once color bambilici, but I never saw it since. Color bambilici is obviously real. But this doesn't mean I can see it again.

On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 13:05:46 UTC+3, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

> Telepathy is not only real, but is obviously real. 

If it is obvious *everybody* should see it, gravity is obvious, gravity is easy to show.

> Stating the obvious is not insulting. If a phenomenon is real and you say is not, what else are you if not a irrational dogmatic believer in materialism ?

If it is obvious *everybody* should see it, gravity is obvious, gravity is easy to show.

> Telepathies are reported by 7 billion people all the time, including me, so they are not anecdotal. They are like breathing. 

If it is like breathing *it is fucking easy to show then*, show us.

Le mar. 21 mai 2019 à 12:02, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> a écrit :

Where did I say such a thing ? Copy-paste please and show me where I said.

 

On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 13:01:03 UTC+3, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

If telepathy is as hard to get a higgs statistics *it is not easy and common*, that's your assertion that telepathy is easy and common not mine.

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[Quentin Anciaux]

So it is not obviously real and as easy as breathing after all... you just don't live with your assertion, as usual... so it is just big BS.

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[Cosmin Visan]

Of course they are real as breathing. Only because you lie to yourself when you have a telepathy, it doesn't mean that it wasn't telepathy. In the same way when you are ugly and girls don't want you, it doesn't matter if you lie to yourself telling that girls cannot see your remarkable intelligence and that's why the don't want you. You still are ugly.

[Quentin Anciaux]

> Of course they are real as breathing

Then show it to us... the only liar I see here is you... live up to your assertion, be brave, display telepathy, propose a test you think is fair that would display it.

It's easy, it's like breathing, and it is very easy to show breathing, so show us telepathy.

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 20 May 2019, at 14:18, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 5:55:19 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 16 May 2019, at 14:13, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:18:47 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

I heard there are a couple of people that claim they've been on the Moon. I asked them to prove it to me by going again, but they said they cannot do it. What do you think ? Is this anecdote true ?

When I was a kid I was big on the moon landing. We went on a vacation to Florida and saw one of the Saturn V rockets lift off. The thing is that if these were faked, then NASA built a 370 foot tall rocket that roared off the launch pad only to ditch the thing in the ocean or some such event and then do a studio enactment. If NASA were to build such a machine, why fake it? --- they might as well have gone all the way. 

For a 5 years in the 90s I was employed in spacecraft navigation. I worked the mechanics on how to get a spacecraft to some orbit in space, whether around Earth or out into the solar system, or to reach some other planetary body. I timed my visits to the Kennedy Space Center to watch shuttle launches, one landing and some Delta launches. This stuff is not faked. There is in fact a visitor center where an unused Saturn V rocket is displayed. 

The idea that moon landings are faked is in line with other historical denials, such as holocaust denial or that black slaves in the south really enjoyed their status and so forth. Conspiracy ideas and nonsense about alt-history or alt-science such as creationism (even flat earth stuff is getting popular) are growing in decibel volume these days. It is a sign the minds of people, particularly Americans, are being rubbished up.

It is very sad sign that education has been lowering down for sometimes. It confirms my feeling that fake theologies, like in most religious institutions is a bad training in argument per-authority. 

We will leave the Middle-Âge and obscurantism when theology will be returned back at the faculty of science, where we are humble and modest, never claim truth, and propose theories with means of evaluation.

The separation of science and theology has separated the human and the exact sciences making them both inexact and inhuman.

Bruno

I would question to what extent theology has been ever a faculty of science.

It has been, from Pythagorus (-500)  to Damascius (+500), in occident, and from +500 to 1248 in the Middle-east. In both occident and middle-east, it has stopped due to the stealing of it by the temporal powers, for private use (goal: to control people and steal their money and means).

Since I presume most people on this list are Christian I will use that,

To be provoque a little, I like to say that christianise ended also in +500. Before the closure of Plato’Academy in athene, christians were divided into the neoplatoncian and the aristotelician. After, Aristotle theology (the belief in a primary physical universe, or the belief that the physical universe cannot be explained by something simpler) has been made obligatory, or you would have been treated as pagan theologian or heretics, and be exiled or burned alive.

where if you think about it Jesus turning water into wine is not really that different an idea from Cinderella's fairy godmother turning mice and a pumpkin into a team of horses bridled to a carriage.

If you give me an evidence that Jesus has transformed ware in wine, the simplest explanation would be that Jesus is good in prestidigitation.

Like we can abandon our belief in a primary physical universe by simple presti-digitalism. Universal numbers are very good in making you belief that some dreams are real ...

In both instances you have some supernatural being, or a being capable of supernatural powers, able to convert matter from one form to another by shear force of thought or will. The difference is the narrative about Jesus is offered up as absolute divine truth and the story about Cinderella is a bit more honest and is framed as a fairy tale. 

There is no texts, nor myth when we do theology as a science, like the greeks did for an entire millenium. At that time, theology was an option after many years of mathematics, astronomy, music, etc. 

Now with theology we can push this into metaphor, where Jesus making wine out of water is symbolic of going from baptism to communion. Lazarus being raised from the dead is also a suspension of natural principles, where as the narrative has it Lazarus was pretty far gone and dead for 3 days, but Jesus raising him from death. That violates of course thermodynamic principles. The metaphor however could be made this is about discarding old ways with dirty rags and decay for a new sort of vibrant life. The three days also stand in for the resurrection motif. I would though say that even if one does take these are purely metaphorical that this is not so much science, but rather language arts and literature.

I totally agree.

But to claim that we know that there is a primary physical universe is the same pretension to know the truth, that only fake scientists and fake philosophers/theologian would do.

But for the first 500 years, the intellectual christians were serious, and were debating seriously about the existence of the physical universe and the possible nature of God (material, arithmetical or musical ?).

The very idea of “sacred text” is already a blasphemy in machine theology, and in neoplatonism. 

Let us not confuse “theology”, as a domain subject (the theory of everything) and theology, the branche stolen by politicians to steal money and get power. It is as different from health and heath politics; which today have become antipodic. 

Bruno

LC 

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 20 May 2019, at 14:29, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Telepathy happens when you interact with people in real life. Do you interact with people ?

Yes, but that has nit given evidences for telepathy, and even if it did, that would easily be explained by radio waves, or by the fact that we can feel united when listening to good music, etc.

Bruno

On Monday, 20 May 2019 14:02:15 UTC+3, Bruno Marchal wrote:

 telepathy is usually not even well defined, and I see no evidences

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[Cosmin Visan]

 It is real like breathing, not easy.

[Cosmin Visan]

Maybe I should have mentioned: not any interaction with people, but special ones. Like for example: Did you ever have a girlfriend ?

[Quentin Anciaux]

No it is not like breathing, if it was and *obvious* as you state... then *it should be easy to show it*, if it ain't *it is not obvious* and it is not like *breathing* which is obvious.

Put your money where your mouth is, show the obvious...

Le mar. 21 mai 2019 à 13:45, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> a écrit :

 It is real like breathing, not easy.

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[Quentin Anciaux]

The burden of proof lies on you, you're the one claiming there is something, so devise a test that you think is fair that will show stupid persons like us who can't see the obvious, the obvious reality of telepathy... why can't you just propose a test ? I did propose you one... 

[Cosmin Visan]

When it occurs it is obvious that it occurred. One such example from my life. I once had a girlfriend from India (I'm from Romania). We met for few weeks in India, and after some months after meeting, I had a dream of traveling with her in Italy and there was a party on the streets with food on the tables, and we took food and people started to scream at us for stealing. In the morning, when I entered on facebook I had a message from her in which she was telling me that she dreamed traveling with me in a place with castles (she never been to Europe, but clearly this place was evokable of Europe) and there was a party on the streets and we took water from the table and people started to laugh at us.

Notice the standard traits of telepathy:

1) Such precise sharable details.

2) It happened at a specific point in time, for both of us at the same time, and after many months after we met.

3) She felt that she had to tell me this dream. Is not like we were always telling us the dreams. This was an exception.

If you tell me that this was not telepathy, then you are just an irrational dogmatic materialist believer.

[Cosmin Visan]

And for Bruno, I wonder how the telepathic "radio waves" emitted by such a poor emitter such as the brain, traveled all this distance.

[Bruno Marchal]

On 21 May 2019, at 14:34, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

And for Bruno, I wonder how the telepathic "radio waves" emitted by such a poor emitter such as the brain, traveled all this distance.

Thanks to the satellite perhaps.

More seriously one case is not a statistics. It might convince you, but it is not enough to convince others.

I am neutral, but the evidences in the literature are very poor, contains apparent wishful thinking, give experience hardly confirmed, and when confirmed, usually the protocol was defectors. Much more work needs to be done, especially to assess its non-locality, as it seems you do.

Bruno

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[Telmo Menezes]

Did you consider that maybe you had recently shared experiences / conversations / whatever that triggered similar dreams? Or that you woke up and saw the facebook message before dreaming but don't remember it? Or...

You fight dogmatism precisely by trying to prove to yourself that you are wrong, not by jumping to the conclusion you like and then defending it as part of your identity, being offended when people don't believe you and so on. The latter is the actual path to dogmatism. I have walked it, most of us have, we are human. But let's try not to bullshit ourselves too much.

One day I was standing in a train station. This thought came out of nowhere: "wouldn't it be weird if an empty train just passed by?". An empty train just passed by moment after. Empty trains that do not stop were not a common event at that station, it was the first time I saw one. Is this proof or even strong evidence of precognition? Of course not, there are 1000 more prosaic explanations to consider before assuming something that is so much outside of our understanding of reality. For example, I might have noticed some warning but only became aware of it at some subconscious level. Or maybe I observed 2 or 3 unusual things and my brain connected the dots.

If you are a scientist, and you have a hunch, then do the experiment! But try to be rigorous, people will question your methods and your conclusions, as they should.

Telmo.

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[smitra]

Indeed, and there are very powerful tests available that should be very
attractive to psychics. Take e.g. the case of mediums who claim to be
able to tell something about a person's life, via the spirit of deceased
family members. In that case one can take, say, 20 volunteers who'll let
the psychic do a reading for them. The psychic will be blindfolded, so
she won't know who the person is that she's doing the reading for.
She'll also not speak but instead write everything down. To her the
persons are identified by a number. She'll do reading for all twenty
volunteers over the course of a few weeks, she can ask people back to
get a better reading.

Meanwhile all the 20 volunteers will write up their life stories. When
the time limit for the readings is over, say after a few months, the
psychic will get all the biographies. The biographies are unlabeled, her
task is to correctly match the readings to the biographies. Clearly,
within such a setup the psychic has a huge amount of freedom of action.
Also, the statistics of this test are extremely favorable to the
psychic. Pure chance only will only lead to just a few accidental
matches at most. The expectation value is just 1 (with N subjects the
probability to get a particular one right is 1/N, multiplied by N this
yields the expectation value of 1). No psychic will go into the test
claiming she can only get a few of the 20 right, but that's actually all
it takes to prove her psychic ability beyond a reasonable doubt. After
such a successful tests, one can always do a larger one to improve the
statistical significance.

Saibal



On 20-05-2019 23:03, howardmarks wrote:
> Ignorance of what? Telepathy is defined as some sort of
> "communication" by all who claim they have it.
>
> If you think that the dialogue going on in your head - when you think
> of someone - is telepathy, then you are mistaken. But demo it.
>
> As Bruno says, "and I see no evidences" sums it up - his conclusion
> and 100 years of scientific investigation by PSICOP (_Committee_ for
> the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the _Paranormal)__ totally
> agree. Look them up: _PSICOP was started in the 19th century to
> investigate such claims - of which Randi was a prominent associate -
> But, Cosmin, if you have (other than anecdotal) evidence of
> telepathy, demonstrate it! That's what science is all about, isn't
> it? Demonstrate my ignorance ! We are all happy to say "uncle" if
> you can demonstrate telepathy or any other psychic capability...
>
> On 5/20/2019 3:06 PM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:
>
>> Sorry mate, your ignorance doesn't stand for lack of evidence.
>>
>> http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm [1]
>>
>> On Monday, 20 May 2019 15:37:41 UTC+3, howardmarks wrote:
>>
>>> Your definition of telepathy is not part of reality, when no
>>> evidence exists, no matter how hard one searches for evidence of
>>> "telepathy". That little voice in your head that you believe (not
>>> know) is not evidence of telepathy.

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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d5f829e0-cc84-4ab7-a931-3ccb9bf4800a%40googlegroups.com
>> [2].

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[howardmarks]

That's the essence of it... not to confuse theology and ontology with a search for the truth..

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[howardmarks]

Problem is that people that want to believe - and take one seeming "hit", like Cosmin's girl friend story - and don't count dozens or hundreds of total misses. We have hunches, or clues many times per day, if we interact with society or friends at all. We take action on more certain ones, such as reacting to drivers on the road, and, if a less certain hunch or thought doesn't confirm as a "hit," then it goes into the trash bin of totally forgotten failed hunches (would be "hits" if confirmed). But if a believer has a hunch or dream, like Cosmin, none of the failed dreams or hunches counts - just the seeming "hit".

And, as Telmo and Bruno suggest, one must examine past interactions. Cosmin's girlfriend can't get the idea that both might travel to Europe out of thin air. They must have talked about it before. Doesn't past communication count?? And also, Cosmin's and the girlfriend's dreams are quite different; Cosmin's quite specific about Italy and girlfriend's quite general. Castles may be in Germany, Romania, England, less likely in Italy. But Cosmin still makes invisible links where none exist. Italy is a small part of Europe. Parties in the streets is commonly depicted on the media. Cosmin, your supposed "shared" dream totally fails your point 1 of telepathy.
If, Cosmin, seven billion people have experiences of telepathy (your claim in this thread), then you should be able, easily be able to generate hard proof of telepathy.

Should be easy to demo telepathy if what you say is even remotely true. Not like the hyperbole you suggest of I'll produce telepathy when you guys "produce a higgs boson" (requiring tens of billions of dollars of equipment and decades of time).
Oh, you say, telepathy doesn't happen all the time, just when conditions are right. No problem. Lightning, aurora borealis and tornadoes are such phenomena, and it's easy to set up for them... telepathy is, you say, very common. Should be a no-brainer.
James Randi, who got the genius grant from MacArthur Foundation in his 50's for his tireless work pursuing the truth, did just that. Each claimant had their conditions for demonstrating - which Randi "religiously" followed. He had a bait of a million dollars to successful claimants. None could demonstrate under neutral conditions. You say Randi is a charlatan? Nothing could be further from the truth.
Cheers! Howard Marks

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[Brent Meeker]

The Higgs boson was produced very much "at will".  In fact a lot willing went into it.

Brent

On 5/21/2019 1:09 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:

Telepathy doesn't happen necessarily at will. It only happens when certain conditions are being met. Asking someone to produce telepathy on the spot is like asking him to produce Higgs Boson on the spot. So let's do like this: you produce me a Higgs Boson, and I'll produce you a telepathy. If you can't do it, it means Higgs Bosons don't exist. They are just anecdots from a bunch of gurus at CERN.

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[Brent Meeker]

No one every said Higgs bosons were common.  In fact the theory that predicted them also predicted that they could only be produced at high energies...and it was right.  You claimed that telepathy was common, as common as interacting with other people.

Brent

On 5/21/2019 2:34 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:

If Higgs Boson were real, it should be *very very* easy to show it. So show it to me.

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2019 at 4:34:12 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

If Higgs Boson were real, it should be *very very* easy to show it. So show it to me.

Well here they are:

 

[Cosmin Visan]

On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 17:27:08 UTC+3, telmo wrote:

Did you consider that maybe you had recently shared experiences / conversations / whatever that triggered similar dreams? Or that you woke up and saw the facebook message before dreaming but don't remember it? Or...

Wow... I like when materialist believers want at all cost to stick to their belief, and therefore start to rationalize the most absurd ideas. Since I told you that I woke up and THEN I saw the message, what makes you say that I first saw the message and then had the dream ? OMG!!! The absurdity of rationalization goes skyrocket!

Regarding "recent conversations", it again doesn't hold, because based on that theory, every night we should have the same dreams, since every day we have conversations. So lol.

One day I was standing in a train station. This thought came out of nowhere: "wouldn't it be weird if an empty train just passed by?". An empty train just passed by moment after. Empty trains that do not stop were not a common event at that station, it was the first time I saw one. Is this proof or even strong evidence of precognition? Of course not, there are 1000 more prosaic explanations to consider before assuming something that is so much outside of our understanding of reality. For example, I might have noticed some warning but only became aware of it at some subconscious level. Or maybe I observed 2 or 3 unusual things and my brain connected the dots.

Yes, it was a precognition. Stop rationalizing the truth to fit into your false beliefs. I also had a similar experience. I always buy milk chocolate in the launch break at work. And they always have also peanuts chocolate. One day it crossed my mind: "What if today I buy peanuts chocolate ?". When I got to the shop, there was no more peanuts chocolate available. So there you are: precognition.

[Cosmin Visan]

As I also clearly specified in my post, we don't tell each other dreams on a regular basis. So after years of not telling our dreams, to one day receiving a message from her telling me her dream, don't you find it suspicious ? Oh wait, you don't, the power of rationalization in strong within people, so it was just a "coincidence".

Also, contrary to your rationalizations, the dreams matched of course. The problem is that you expect from telepathy to be 100% correct, when not even experiments in physics are not 100% correct. In QM the particles hit the screen all over the place. Based on your rationalization, QM is false.

[Bruno Marchal]

On 21 May 2019, at 17:50, howardmarks <howar...@doitnow.com> wrote:

That's the essence of it... not to confuse theology and ontology with a search for the truth..

That’s it.

Actually, whatever the domain of the inquiry is.

Bruno

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 21 May 2019, at 20:15, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

The Higgs boson was produced very much "at will".  In fact a lot willing went into it.

You mean the Englert-Brout-Higgs boson?

Englert did not want it. He was disappointed. He learned nothing. He said it on TV when he got the prize.

He was used to assume the Standard Model of the particles.

He would have preferred something new. Like a refutation, a surprise, enforcing the change of mind, something needed to progress.

So, if you tell me that the Higgs boson appeared by the psychic will of a conspiracy of telepath physicists, (with some help of the engineers, I guess), I don’ think Englert participated in this.

Bruno

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[Brent Meeker]

On 5/22/2019 9:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 21 May 2019, at 20:15, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

The Higgs boson was produced very much "at will".  In fact a lot willing went into it.

You mean the Englert-Brout-Higgs boson?

Englert did not want it. He was disappointed. He learned nothing. He said it on TV when he got the prize.

He was used to assume the Standard Model of the particles.

He would have preferred something new. Like a refutation, a surprise, enforcing the change of mind, something needed to progress.

All physicists would have preferred something new.  You don't make progress just by confirmation.

Brent

So, if you tell me that the Higgs boson appeared by the psychic will of a conspiracy of telepath physicists, (with some help of the engineers, I guess), I don’ think Englert participated in this.

Bruno

Brent

On 5/21/2019 1:09 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:

Telepathy doesn't happen necessarily at will. It only happens when certain conditions are being met. Asking someone to produce telepathy on the spot is like asking him to produce Higgs Boson on the spot. So let's do like this: you produce me a Higgs Boson, and I'll produce you a telepathy. If you can't do it, it means Higgs Bosons don't exist. They are just anecdots from a bunch of gurus at CERN.

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[howardmarks]

Good point on the "Higgs" Boson. Especially when the discoverer said what he said. The experiments at CERN, Fermi Lab, etc. were run with the standard model in mind. They defined the "evidence" they expected a Higgs boson to manifest in residue particles, and, when they found, amongst the subatomic and atomic debris, a particle near the characteristics they expected, they called it a "hit".  There is only indirect evidence. We can't directly observe picometer objects moving at close to the speed of light. We know few things, like the mass to charge ratio and approx kinetic energy... 
Cheers!

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[howardmarks]

Cosmin, I'm not talking about just your girlfriend story -- Every day, people have many, many of {what could be interpreted as "wanna be" precognition or telepathy} thoughts on events or people ----- and when these many, many "wanna be" thoughts turn out not to resonate with reality -- they're almost totally forgotten ---- but, it seems that you, Cosmin, don't count the many, many wanna be's ---- only the seeming "hits" - even if, like your girlfriend story, the details are wrong... as she didn't talk about Italy, only castles and street parties --- you cheated by twisting what she said and created a rationalization...... that is very very far from the scientific method....     But maybe your intuition doesn't need the scientific method - totally available for proving or disproving such claims of the paranormal.

In 20 years, Randi's team couldn't find one person that could perform under any conditions - and PSICOP, ditto, for 100 years. And then, there's Michael Shermer's work, Hyman's, etc.
Cheers! Howard

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 11:03:49 AM UTC-5, howardmarks wrote:

Good point on the "Higgs" Boson. Especially when the discoverer said what he said. The experiments at CERN, Fermi Lab, etc. were run with the standard model in mind. They defined the "evidence" they expected a Higgs boson to manifest in residue particles, and, when they found, amongst the subatomic and atomic debris, a particle near the characteristics they expected, they called it a "hit".  There is only indirect evidence. We can't directly observe picometer objects moving at close to the speed of light. We know few things, like the mass to charge ratio and approx kinetic energy... 
Cheers!

My area is physics, and have written on the connection between spacetime or gravitation with particle physics. Cosmin wanted to see the Higgs boson, and that is about it. It may be disappointing, but the particle only last about 10^{-25} seconds on a path 10^{-15}cm long. So we detect this field by the particles it decays into. Since it requires a lot of energy the machine is large, the detectors are large and it is a major undertaking. I don't have Higgs particles in my pocket.

Cosmin might be somewhat earnest in his intent here, or he might just be another up and coming hustler trying to get people to follow. If he is earnest then he has been hustled. The various attempts to really measure these things have always come up with white noise in the statistics. Where scientific claims are made it is usually because of the file drawer effect, which is data cherry picking. There is nothing here.

LC

 

On 5/22/2019 11:20 PM, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:

On 5/22/2019 9:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 21 May 2019, at 20:15, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

The Higgs boson was produced very much "at will".  In fact a lot willing went into it.

You mean the Englert-Brout-Higgs boson?

Englert did not want it. He was disappointed. He learned nothing. He said it on TV when he got the prize.

He was used to assume the Standard Model of the particles.

He would have preferred something new. Like a refutation, a surprise, enforcing the change of mind, something needed to progress.

All physicists would have preferred something new.  You don't make progress just by confirmation.

Brent

So, if you tell me that the Higgs boson appeared by the psychic will of a conspiracy of telepath physicists, (with some help of the engineers, I guess), I don’ think Englert participated in this.

Bruno

Brent

On 5/21/2019 1:09 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:

Telepathy doesn't happen necessarily at will. It only happens when certain conditions are being met. Asking someone to produce telepathy on the spot is like asking him to produce Higgs Boson on the spot. So let's do like this: you produce me a Higgs Boson, and I'll produce you a telepathy. If you can't do it, it means Higgs Bosons don't exist. They are just anecdots from a bunch of gurus at CERN.

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[Cosmin Visan]

No. You don't understand how telepathy and consciousness generally works. Consciousness works by unification: you are a consciousness that is made up of made an infinite of smaller consciousnesses unified into 1. The fact that you both hear and see is because you are a unification between a consciousness that only hears and a consciousness that only sees. What happens in telepathy is that sub-consciousnesses that make you are unifying with sub-consciousnesses that make the other person. So in the case of my telepathy, the sub-consciousness of "being in Europe" unified with a similar sub-consciousness from my girlfriend. Then on top of this unification, in my consciousness the meaning of "Italy" has been emerged, while in the consciousness of my girlfriend the meaning of "castles" has been emerged. So the details are correct. Telepathy is not what you want it to be: "a perfect information transmission", but it's an intricate phenomenon of consciousnesses unifications.

You people keep insisting on having shallow thinking. That's why you will never do anything in your life. You only live in order not to die. Phenomena are much more complicated than your shallow thinking will ever allow you to see.

On Thursday, 23 May 2019 19:25:19 UTC+3, howardmarks wrote:

  the details are wrong

[Tomasz Rola]

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 11:25:16AM -0500, howardmarks wrote:
[...]

>
> In 20 years, Randi's team couldn't find one person that could
> perform under any conditions - and PSICOP, ditto, for 100 years. And
> then, there's Michael Shermer's work, Hyman's, etc.
> Cheers! Howard

This is not a sarcasm, but it may sound like it: perhaps, those
researchers should train their methodolody on something that should be
much easier, like, say, proving existence of romantic love? In a lab,
with cameras etc. And, of course, give a prize to those who can
successfully demonstrate it on themselves.

Maybe proper testing is hard.

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

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** **
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[Brent Meeker]

On 5/25/2019 8:12 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 11:25:16AM -0500, howardmarks wrote:
> [...]
>> In 20 years, Randi's team couldn't find one person that could
>> perform under any conditions - and PSICOP, ditto, for 100 years. And
>> then, there's Michael Shermer's work, Hyman's, etc.
>> Cheers! Howard
> This is not a sarcasm, but it may sound like it: perhaps, those
> researchers should train their methodolody on something that should be
> much easier, like, say, proving existence of romantic love? In a lab,
> with cameras etc. And, of course, give a prize to those who can
> successfully demonstrate it on themselves.

Since each claimant to the prize got to specify themselves what would
demonstrate their supernatural ability, people claiming to love one
another would simply say having passionate sex would prove it and then
proceed to demonstrate it.

>
> Maybe proper testing is hard.

Not when the prediction to be tested is clear.  The testing is
easy....getting a supernatural outcome is hard.

Brent

[howardmarks]

Well, in James Randi's case, he was saddened by the amount of fraud done on innocent people who called themselves "psychic," telepathic," able to "talk with the dead" and so forth. So he, Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan, and many notable and not so notable people got together to form form CSICOP (now Commitee for Skeptical Inquiry, CSI) and other organizations. For his hard work, he was given the MacArthur genius grant (I think $150,000.00, which, about 1980, is easily double that in 2019 dollars!). He hoped he would find someone capable - but he, like Dr. Mike Sherman, Dr. Ray Hyman, etc. - even with a "bait" of a million dollars if they performed, found no one, in spite of so, so many prospectives.!
So, to answer your question, Tomasz, subjects you suggested were not part of what Randi pursued, although Randi did work with Dr Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch, and accupuncture, and many claims of "natural healing" or Chinese medicines would qualify for his million dollar prize.... (not sure if the prize is available, as Randi retired 3-4 years ago)... look at randi.org for details and his archives.
Cheers! Howard Marks

On 5/25/2019 10:12 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote:

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 11:25:16AM -0500, howardmarks wrote:
[...]

In 20 years, Randi's team couldn't find one person that could
perform under any conditions - and PSICOP, ditto, for 100 years. And
then, there's Michael Shermer's work, Hyman's, etc.
Cheers! Howard

This is not a sarcasm, but it may sound like it: perhaps, those
researchers should train their methodolody on something that should be
much easier, like, say, proving existence of romantic love? In a lab,
with cameras etc. And, of course, give a prize to those who can
successfully demonstrate it on themselves.

Maybe proper testing is hard.

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 6:07 AM 'Cosmin Visan'  <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> No. You don't understand how telepathy and consciousness generally works.

I never demanded you explain how telepathy works I just want you to show that there is something about telepathy than needs explaining. And nobody could do that a century ago (back then it was call spiritualism ) and nobody can do it today. All the hot air produced in the last century babbling about telepathy has not advanced our understanding of how the world works by one nanometer, but the babble continues louder than ever.  

 

> Consciousness works by unification:

How nice for consciousness.

 

John K Clark

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 9:20 PM howardmarks <howar...@doitnow.com> wrote:

 

> in James Randi's case, he was saddened by the amount of fraud done on innocent people who called themselves "psychic," telepathic," able to "talk with the dead" and so forth.

And Houdini did much the same thing a century ago. Scientist are good at finding the truth by observing nature but stage magicians have a better skill set at detecting the deceitfulness in people. I respect Houdini and Randy because unlike slimeballs such as Uri Geller they always said everything they did were just clever tricks but the audience was entertained by trying to figure out how they did it.

By the way you can buy Uri Geller spoon bending trick on Ebay, it cost $2.68

Spoon Bending Gimmick Close-up Street Magic Magician Trick

John K Clark

 

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 05:36:39PM -0700, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:
>
> On 5/25/2019 8:12 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote:

[...]

> >researchers should train their methodolody on something that should be
> >much easier, like, say, proving existence of romantic love? In a lab,
> >with cameras etc. And, of course, give a prize to those who can
> >successfully demonstrate it on themselves.
>
> Since each claimant to the prize got to specify themselves what
> would demonstrate their supernatural ability, people claiming to
> love one another would simply say having passionate sex would prove
> it and then proceed to demonstrate it.

Really. I was thinking about something less violent and more along the
lines of Baucis and Philemon.

If you are 18+ I would recommend that you watch even one adult
movie, for educational purposes.

But, if you are serious, how are the claimant(s) going to prove the
passionate-ness of his/her/their (we should not prejudice against
onanists) act? By counting shoutings per minute? broken bones?

[...]

[howardmarks]

Haha! Yes, indeed!
In Florida and telephone, I had the privilege of talking to Randi, and the "light"  of truth and justice illuminating his person was marvelous! He & Houdini had a lot in common - truth-seeking, and used their skills as master magicians to spot deceit. Of course, it helped that Randi was an amateur scientist early on. He inspired many, including Penn & Teller ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99_upx8URLI ).
Cheers! Howard Marks

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[Cosmin Visan]

What ? You didn't realize this yet ? See ? This is why theories are lacking (for telepathy, and consciousness generally), because people simply fail to see some elements of phenomenology. If people fail to see that consciousness is unified, they will search explanations for telepathy in terms of "message transmission", which of course they will fail. If people on the other hand notice that consciousness works by unifications, they will start to search explanations for telepathy in terms of unifications, and probably they will have more luck. So the whole problem with theories of consciousness is not that consciousness is "mysterious", is just that people fail to see key aspects of phenomenology. Once those aspects are spotted, theories will follow at once.

Now, the problem is: How are those elements of phenomenology to be observed ? From my own thinking experience, the central element is honesty. Honesty is much more important than intelligence of theories learned by heart in schools, etc. If you are looking at consciousness in an honest way, chances are you will spot lots of things and you will be able to formulate theories. Otherwise, if you just want social status (i.e. get a phd from Oxford, etc.) then good luck! Solving consciousness is not for you.

[howardmarks]

Endless experiments of what you suggest about unification/telepathy/precognition/etc. together/separate/etc. has been tested and tested and tested, under all sorts of circumstances under all conditions thinkable. My father was a lifelong believer things like telepathy and failure to confirm his beliefs didn't deter him from believing, even though he was a good-thinking electronic engineer with >12 patents (you can look him up in USPTO.gov , Meyer Marks, before year 1975).

Phenomenology infers that there is a phenomenon, and in the case of telepathy and precognition, no phenomena can be demonstrated, whether "unified" with emotion/communication etc., when falsifiable experiments show every claim to be a "lookalike," such as conjuring (magician's tricks), fakers like Uri Geller, random chance, liars, clever opportunity seekers, coincidences, or flat misinterpretations, etc. The total failure of precognition hotlines demonstrate that precognition is unlikely to be a phenomenon - with a score of zero hits in probably millions of submissions over maybe 20 years.

There are "treasure chests" of experiments, extremely thoroughly investigated and documented by thousands of investigators for centuries, including your suggested "unification." Look up the files in the archives of randi.org , Dr Shermer's Skeptical Inquirer, Joseph Nichol's work, CSICOP (now CSI, Committee for skeptical Inquiry) and a dozen more, most discoverable with web searching. Randi has an excellent library in Florida that should be accessible for research.

Cosmin, your example of your girlfriend and you "connecting" thru facebook fails your own criteria, point 1:    1) Such precise sharable details.
The only way to reconcile the failure to be specific - is to "believe anyway."
Cheers! Howard Marks

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[howardmarks]

When one observes a real phenomenon, then one can create (again falsifiable) theories to explain the phenomenon. Telepathy is not such.

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 08:20:42PM -0500, howardmarks wrote:
> Well, in James Randi's case, he was saddened by the amount of fraud
> done on innocent people who called themselves "psychic,"

[...]

I wandered around the website a bit. Interesting place and they seem
sincere, from what I could gather in not very much time. What I would
like to see is some kind of simple statistics, like number of
claimants per year, in range of 1980-2015. Or description of one
failed experiment (any one of those many supposedly performed). Could
not find neither of the info.

Do you have any idea if such information is available? I am not going
to claim anything of course (and besides, they stopped receiving
claims) but I easily become curious and I like looking at numbers.

> So, to answer your question, Tomasz, subjects you suggested were not
> part of what Randi pursued, although Randi did work with Dr Stephen
> Barrett of Quackwatch, and accupuncture, and many claims of "natural
> healing" or Chinese medicines would qualify for his million dollar
> prize.... (not sure if the prize is available, as Randi retired 3-4
> years ago)... look at randi.org for details and his archives.
> Cheers! Howard Marks

The idea I have about those claimants and tests, is that some things
cannot be tested - there simply is no good enough tech to make such
tests right now. Or maybe there is another reason - I have no way to
know if the reason would be technical or something else.

Just as with my previously stated question about testing the existence
of phenomenon called "romantic love". A lot of people claim it
happens. But can it be tested in a similar setup that supernatural was
being tested? Or any other setup. If not this, one can try to test for
existence of goodness.

[Brent Meeker]

On 5/26/2019 9:28 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 05:36:39PM -0700, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:
>> On 5/25/2019 8:12 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> [...]
>>> researchers should train their methodolody on something that should be
>>> much easier, like, say, proving existence of romantic love? In a lab,
>>> with cameras etc. And, of course, give a prize to those who can
>>> successfully demonstrate it on themselves.
>> Since each claimant to the prize got to specify themselves what
>> would demonstrate their supernatural ability, people claiming to
>> love one another would simply say having passionate sex would prove
>> it and then proceed to demonstrate it.
> Really. I was thinking about something less violent and more along the
> lines of Baucis and Philemon.
>
> If you are 18+ I would recommend that you watch even one adult
> movie, for educational purposes.
>
> But, if you are serious, how are the claimant(s) going to prove the
> passionate-ness of his/her/their (we should not prejudice against
> onanists) act? By counting shoutings per minute? broken bones?

You're missing the point.  Randi asked claimants what they could do.  So
if they said they could demonstrate the existence of passionate love by
having passionate sex, the Randi would say Ok show me.  But when he did
that for supernatural claims the claimants consistently failed to do the
thing they said they could.  Whether it would prove the existence of the
supernatural was moot, because they didn't do it.

Brent

>
> [...]
>

[Bruno Marchal]

On 24 May 2019, at 02:26, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 11:03:49 AM UTC-5, howardmarks wrote:

Good point on the "Higgs" Boson. Especially when the discoverer said what he said. The experiments at CERN, Fermi Lab, etc. were run with the standard model in mind. They defined the "evidence" they expected a Higgs boson to manifest in residue particles, and, when they found, amongst the subatomic and atomic debris, a particle near the characteristics they expected, they called it a "hit".  There is only indirect evidence. We can't directly observe picometer objects moving at close to the speed of light. We know few things, like the mass to charge ratio and approx kinetic energy... 
Cheers!

My area is physics, and have written on the connection between spacetime or gravitation with particle physics. Cosmin wanted to see the Higgs boson, and that is about it. It may be disappointing, but the particle only last about 10^{-25} seconds on a path 10^{-15}cm long. So we detect this field by the particles it decays into. Since it requires a lot of energy the machine is large, the detectors are large and it is a major undertaking. I don't have Higgs particles in my pocket.

Really? How does your handkerchief get a mass? 

Bruno

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