Brent
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[Philip Benjamin]
There is no need for confounding the self-evident physical reality with an illusion, if and only if two different physical realities exist: 1. Ordinary materialism of ordinary light matter with its chemistry (chemical bonds); 2. Extraordinary materialism of extraordinary dark-: matter with its chemistry. As to which one is primary or secondary is a matter of philosophic choice!! (Note: Chemical bonds are spin governed particle configurations of duets and octets). Mathematics of Computer and computation will not explain the invisible (dark) consciousness.
Feeling a sense of loss for free-will is not the same as understanding the reality that something within is external to the ordinary natural realm, and subject to influence from outside which can be an extraordinarily physical realm of dark-matter with its chemistry. This may be the source of the “hard” part of free-will and consciousness. Then, there is no contradiction between the reality and the phenomenology of the “free will including psychology, morality and law, and the discoveries of science. From the very moment of conception, the resonant “dark” & “light” twins are formed recognizing each other—the basis for at least self-awareness. Resonance is rudimentary recognition. Light matter bodies are electric, entropic and decaying. Dark-matter bodies are non-electric, nonentropic and undying. The chasm between death and life is obviously abysmal and beyond the scope of science. When a light matter twin dies, the dark twin will be left at a negative energy state of at least -E = - mC^2 where m is the mass of the light twin. Only an external source of power much greater than that can bring the dark twin back to any operational level. There is “The Additional Mass of Life” for a living organism in a hermitically sealed system, which disappears at death reported by Amrit S. Sorli, Scientific Research Centre BISTRA, Ptuj, Slovenia, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary; doi=10.1.1.218.573; https://core.ac.uk/display/21767122. 2012, Journal of Theoretics Vol.4-2).
A failure to distinguish an illusory but rigidly misunderstood concept from the actuality will not explain consciousness. A “real” sunset is not the illusion of sun splashing into the water, it is ultimately the motion of the earth and gravity. The natural order of time, motion, matter and space are all in intact. A mirage is likewise a “real” physical phenomenon from refracted light, heat and materiality, only the effects of the realities are illusory. Dark-matter bodies are likewise real but operate invisibly. It is really in the nature of the actual moral behavior of people or in the nature of actual subjective experience to be unaccountable for known behaviors. Because, no conceptual analysis by a dying “light” body can be precise clarification of the intents of an undying ‘dark” body. The concepts we use can become dangerously misleading not because of any illusionary or faulty or inadequate and misleading notions and intuitions of realities, but because of the atavistic and innate dissonance between dying and undying “twins”. The increase of biophoton emission rates under stress or trauma of living cells, with a burst at death of the cells, is a measure of this dissonance. (It must be noted here that there is an increase of biophoton emission rates by an order of magnitude across the taxa from human to plants, indicating taxonomic differences between interactions of light and dark chemical bonds. Ref: "Spiritual Body or Physical Spirit? Your Invisible Doppelgänger" Sunbury Press 2013) .
Philip Benjamin
CC. Carlo Rovelli PhD, Theoretical Physicist, “The Old Fisherman’s Mistake” http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/18837/1/Pescatore.pdf.
general...@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Carlo Rovelli: The Old Fisherman's Mistake
Rovelli is a loop quantum gravitation maven. This is a very ontological physics, and explains in part Rovelli's stance. The though has occurred to me that maybe LQG states are the kernel of some sort of target map. Either than or they are epistemic/ontologically uncertain and in an epistemic setting target map to zero.
LC
On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 2:05:33 PM UTC-5 use...@rudnyi.ru wrote:
I have read Rovelli's paper. I am disappointed. What Rovelli suggest is eliminativism. Red (a) (what I see) does not exist but red (b) (electromagnetic wave peaking near 564–580 nm) exists.
Rovelli should have read first:
Donald D. Hoffman. The Case Against Reality: Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes, 2019.
Evgenii
Brent schrieb am Sonntag, 28. März 2021 um 00:35:27 UTC+1:
-------- Forwarded Message --------
The Old Fisherman's Mistake
ROVELLI, Carlo (2021)
Abstract
A number of thorny issues such as the nature of time, free will, the clash of the manifest and scientific images, the possibility of a naturalistic foundation of morality, and perhaps even the possibility of accounting for consciousness in naturalistic terms, seem to me to be plagued by the conceptual confusion nourished by a single fallacy: the old fisherman's mistake.
Rovelli has it exactly right.
Brent
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[Philip Benjamin]
Why or how physical signals are transduced into qualia? Has any scientist or philosopher ever answered that question? Basically sense organs transduce physical energy into a nervous signal or conscious feeling of a “property” or “quale”. It may be magical or illusory to science, but is factual, actual and real!! Conscious of what and what is consciousness are two different questions. Self-consciousness is being conscious of the “self”. It cannot be real if “self” is unreal. For “self” to be real but INVISIBLE, the only candidate now available for science is bio dark-matter with its chemistry. Nobody but nobody is going to even consider that as a remote possibility. The anathemas associated with spirit/soul soon grip the ‘soul’ of science!! The strange irony here is that there are no such taboos with mysticism—Niels Bohr’s Taoism or Jungian sorceries for examples.
Philip Benjamin
> That is not at all what Rovelli says. You still see red, but you have
> learned that it is due to 564-580nm photons exciting neurons in your eye
> (b) and not rays reaching out from your eyes to contact redness (a).
I am afraid that it will not work this way. To show this, I have attached a picture from David Gamez, Human and Machine Consciousness, 2018. Primary and secondary qualities are not essential, what is important that manifest world (bubble of experience on the picture) is spatially separated
from the external world (black and white part). Photons from red flowers belongs to the external world but a person sees the red flowers somewhere else.
The spacial separation of the two worlds sometimes is referred to as the virtual world theory (Gamez's book is good illustration to this end). This directly follows from what you have written - information comes into the eyes and it does not come out. So the manifest world that the person sees is completely separated from the external physical world.
One could claim that the external world is still similar to the manifest world as on the attached figure. Yet the main point of Hoffman's book that evolution must produce an opposite result.
On 29 Mar 2021, at 17:04, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:general...@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Carlo Rovelli: The Old Fisherman's Mistake
[Philip Benjamin]
There is no need for confounding the self-evident physical reality with an illusion,
if and only if two different physical realities exist: 1. Ordinary materialism of ordinary light matter with its chemistry (chemical bonds); 2. Extraordinary materialism of extraordinary dark-: matter with its chemistry.
As to which one is primary or secondary is a matter of philosophic choice!!
(Note: Chemical bonds are spin governed particle configurations of duets and octets). Mathematics of Computer and computation will not explain the invisible (dark) consciousness.
Feeling a sense of loss for free-will is not the same as understanding the reality that something within is external to the ordinary natural realm, and subject to influence from outside which can be an extraordinarily physical realm of dark-matter with its chemistry. This may be the source of the “hard” part of free-will and consciousness.
Then, there is no contradiction between the reality and the phenomenology of the “free will including psychology, morality and law, and the discoveries of science. From the very moment of conception, the resonant “dark” & “light” twins are formed recognizing each other—the basis for at least self-awareness. Resonance is rudimentary recognition. Light matter bodies are electric, entropic and decaying. Dark-matter bodies are non-electric, nonentropic and undying. The chasm between death and life is obviously abysmal and beyond the scope of science. When a light matter twin dies, the dark twin will be left at a negative energy state of at least -E = - mC^2 where m is the mass of the light twin. Only an external source of power much greater than that can bring the dark twin back to any operational level. There is “The Additional Mass of Life” for a living organism in a hermitically sealed system, which disappears at death reported by Amrit S. Sorli, Scientific Research Centre BISTRA, Ptuj, Slovenia, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary; doi=10.1.1.218.573; https://core.ac.uk/display/21767122. 2012, Journal of Theoretics Vol.4-2).
A failure to distinguish an illusory but rigidly misunderstood concept from the actuality will not explain consciousness. A “real” sunset is not the illusion of sun splashing into the water, it is ultimately the motion of the earth and gravity. The natural order of time, motion, matter and space are all in intact. A mirage is likewise a “real” physical phenomenon from refracted light, heat and materiality, only the effects of the realities are illusory. Dark-matter bodies are likewise real but operate invisibly.
It is really in the nature of the actual moral behavior of people or in the nature of actual subjective experience to be unaccountable for known behaviors. Because, no conceptual analysis by a dying “light” body can be precise clarification of the intents of an undying ‘dark” body.
The concepts we use can become dangerously misleading not because of any illusionary or faulty or inadequate and misleading notions and intuitions of realities, but because of the atavistic and innate dissonance between dying and undying “twins”. The increase of biophoton emission rates under stress or trauma of living cells, with a burst at death of the cells, is a measure of this dissonance. (It must be noted here that there is an increase of biophoton emission rates by an order of magnitude across the taxa from human to plants, indicating taxonomic differences between interactions of light and dark chemical bonds. Ref: "Spiritual Body or Physical Spirit? Your Invisible Doppelgänger" Sunbury Press 2013) .
Philip Benjamin
CC. Carlo Rovelli PhD, Theoretical Physicist, “The Old Fisherman’s Mistake” http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/18837/1/Pescatore.pdf.
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List Saturday, March 27, 2021 6:35 PM To: everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Fwd: Carlo Rovelli: The Old Fisherman's Mistake
-------- Forwarded Message -------- The Old Fisherman's Mistake ROVELLI, Carlo (2021)
Abstract
A number of thorny issues such as the nature of time, free will, the clash of the manifest and scientific images, the possibility of a naturalistic foundation of morality, and perhaps even the possibility of accounting for consciousness in naturalistic terms, seem to me to be plagued by the conceptual confusion nourished by a single fallacy: the old fisherman's mistake.
Rovelli has it exactly right.
Brent
--
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