Trump is on drugs

[John Clark]

Trump is taking the powerful steroid dexamethasone and it is known to cause mental side effects such as paranoia, aggression, agitation, anxiety, irritability, depression, psychosis, hallucinations, and grandiose delusions. That may explain the hour long phone rant on Fox this morning which was unhinged even by Trump standards. He started with "I am a perfect physical specimen and I'm extremely young" then Trump said members of his own cabinet were turning against him including FBI Director Christopher Wray, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and even his pet Attorney General William Barr who he said would go down in history as "a sad situation" because he didn't prosecute Trump's political rivals. Trump said Biden and Obama and Hillary Clinton should all be indicted immediately for some vaguely specified crime and if Barr didn't do it he would do it himself. Trump said he got COVID-19 from Gold Star Families and twice said Kamala Harris was a "monster" and a "communist" and wants to "open up the borders to allow killers and murderers and rapists to pour into our country." Trump concluded with one of his golden oldies, a diatribe about Hillary Clinton's email server from four years ago.

John K Clark

[spudb...@aol.com]

Scott Adams, the Dilbert Cartoonist and social philosopher was mentioning this just yesterday, on his Periscope and Youtube brooadcast (#1146?) and comparing, as he has in the past, with his own mental changes while taking steroids. He mentioned the tweeting in caps, the optimism, that he though he may have seen in The Donald (Now to be called the leader of America, hereafter) etc. On the demonstrated conspiracy by the members of the Obama administration in spying and then trying to Peach, based on false FISA info, this is legally uncontestable John. Having said, this, if nothing is done, nothing is done. Kamala, is basically what the democrat party has become, a hodgepodge of liberals/socialists/communists. This is why they left me, a kind of nationalist guy, seeing nationalism as the best path forwards (Temporarily) forward the US middle class. Now, when the technology of the world changes (something you have placed a personal investment in!), then we can rightly, change the economic system and yes, political. Right now, it's oligarchs all the way down, to quote Sagan, for today, John.

 If we can jazz up AI and quantum computing to drive vast improvements in engineering, chemistry, transportation, and materials science (like me saying chemistry twice here!), then it will change the way nations and peoples live! What I forecast as more sensible (my best guess) are lots of mini-Singularities going forward in time, rather than one big juicy one, that'd thrill Kurzweil and Vernor Vinge. Now, we have to get past Team dems' great slobbering love affair with Chairman Xi style of government--and this looks to not be doable with significant social conflict. Call this, The Resistance (Hilly's) versus the Rubes, The Insurgents. 

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[Brent Meeker]

When I heard that Trump's steriod shots might cause delusions, might thought was, "How could we tell?"

Brent

On 10/8/2020 11:06 AM, John Clark wrote:

Trump is taking the powerful steroid dexamethasone and it is known to cause mental side effects such as paranoia, aggression, agitation, anxiety, irritability, depression, psychosis, hallucinations, and grandiose delusions. That may explain the hour long phone rant on Fox this morning which was unhinged even by Trump standards. He started with "I am a perfect physical specimen and I'm extremely young" then Trump said members of his own cabinet were turning against him including FBI Director Christopher Wray, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and even his pet Attorney General William Barr who he said would go down in history as "a sad situation" because he didn't prosecute Trump's political rivals. Trump said Biden and Obama and Hillary Clinton should all be indicted immediately for some vaguely specified crime and if Barr didn't do it he would do it himself. Trump said he got COVID-19 from Gold Star Families and twice said Kamala Harris was a "monster" and a "communist" and wants to "open up the borders to allow killers and murderers and rapists to pour into our country." Trump concluded with one of his golden oldies, a diatribe about Hillary Clinton's email server from four years ago.

John K Clark

[John Clark]

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 3:04 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

>On the demonstrated conspiracy by the members of the Obama administration in spying and then trying to Peach, based on false FISA info, this is legally uncontestable John.

Trying to Peach? Spud my boy I really wish you'd give your silly homemade jargon a rest for a while, it makes reading your posts a painful chore.

>  If we can jazz up AI and quantum computing to drive vast improvements in engineering, chemistry, transportation, and materials science (like me saying chemistry twice here!), then it will change the way nations and peoples live!

Nations? People? You're showing a remarkable lack of imagination and making a lot of unwarranted assumptions. A 100 years from now (maybe less than 50) nation states will certainly no longer exist and even something that you are I would recognize as a biological human being probably won't.   

> Now, we have to get past Team dems' great slobbering love affair with Chairman Xi style of government--

Your belief that the danger of totalitarianism comes exclusively from the left and remains unchanged the day after right wing Trump supporters tried to kidnap the governor of Michigan and had previously entered the State Capital Building armed to the teeth with military grade assault rifles is just what I'd expect from a Trump apologist who long ago developed the ability to ignore reality even when it's screaming at him in his face.

John K Clark

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 6:52:50 AM UTC-5 johnk...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 3:04 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

>On the demonstrated conspiracy by the members of the Obama administration in spying and then trying to Peach, based on false FISA info, this is legally uncontestable John.

Trying to Peach? Spud my boy I really wish you'd give your silly homemade jargon a rest for a while, it makes reading your posts a painful chore.

>  If we can jazz up AI and quantum computing to drive vast improvements in engineering, chemistry, transportation, and materials science (like me saying chemistry twice here!), then it will change the way nations and peoples live!

Nations? People? You're showing a remarkable lack of imagination and making a lot of unwarranted assumptions. A 100 years from now (maybe less than 50) nation states will certainly no longer exist and even something that you are I would recognize as a biological human being probably won't. 

The only way I see that is if we snuff ourselves out, which is possible. Nation states will otherwise  probably exist, but their role and status in the world will be changed. Human also will exist, but I think the "BORG-ification" of humans may be underway. Humans that most radically transform will be those who might end up living permanently in space. This assume we can find some economic purpose for putting humans in space. 

 

  

> Now, we have to get past Team dems' great slobbering love affair with Chairman Xi style of government--

Your belief that the danger of totalitarianism comes exclusively from the left and remains unchanged the day after right wing Trump supporters tried to kidnap the governor of Michigan and had previously entered the State Capital Building armed to the teeth with military grade assault rifles is just what I'd expect from a Trump apologist who long ago developed the ability to ignore reality even when it's screaming at him in his face.

Spud is a case of a true-believer, as Fromm called them. Ardono called them authoritarian personalities. They are often motivated by phantom fears, such as the democratic party being some veiled communist cabal ready to pounce. We have had this nonsense since before the McCarthy mania. It is the political pap eaten by dumb white trash Americans.

LC

[spudb...@aol.com]

The only thing I truly believe in politically, is not the wonderfulness of Donald, but the vileness of the pro-BLMTifa democrats. I did like some of Fromm's work back in the day, and if I give the aroma of a true believer, it's all on team dem. I used to vote exclusively, team dem, not so long ago, but saw these swine going against whatever the US middle class would thrive on. Like the Republicans, you do have in enormous numbers, super rich funders who bribe politicians to vote for polices that favor the rich. So, thus, its not only corrupting Globalist oligarchs running things, its Globalist corrupt oligarchs funding BLMTifa and all their policies. I will never for for another democrat agai, and suspect that whomever wins the election, we will be embroiled in what can only be described as civil conflict. Things won't be normal, perhaps ever in our lifetimes, now, thanks to the DNC, no matter how short our lifetimes become as a result. I am on prescribed drugs, so I suspect that medical conditions will make me one of the first to go, once pharmaceutical production becomes a sometime thing, (Closings, burnings, Blockades), so, enjoy your devil dance with the DNC's BLMTifa, Lawrence. To wit, this goes way way beyond the NY real estate tycoon in the whitehouse.

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[Brent Meeker]

On 10/10/2020 5:58 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

The only thing I truly believe in politically, is not the wonderfulness of Donald, but the vileness of the pro-BLMTifa democrats. I did like some of Fromm's work back in the day, and if I give the aroma of a true believer, it's all on team dem. I used to vote exclusively, team dem, not so long ago, but saw these swine going against whatever the US middle class would thrive on.

Such as?  pollution?  global warming?  expensive drugs? regime change? war with Iran?  cops shooting black guys?   is that what we're supposed to "thrive on"?

Brent

[John Clark]

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 8:58 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

> the vileness of the pro-BLMTifa democrats.

I don't know what that is.  

 

> I used to vote exclusively, team dem,

And I used to vote exclusively team Republican the party of Lincoln, but they started to lose their mind and I started to have severe misgivings about them long before Trump. I can tell you the exact day the final straw fell and I officially switched party affiliations from Republican to Democrat, it was October 17 2013; that was the day the Republicans came within 45 minutes of defaulting on the national debt. I could no longer ignore such colossal irresponsibility.

John K Clark

[John Clark]

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> via Everything List wrote:

>> [Me] Nations? People? You're showing a remarkable lack of imagination and making a lot of unwarranted assumptions. A 100 years from now (maybe less than 50) nation states will certainly no longer exist and even something that you are I would recognize as a biological human being probably won't. 

> The only way I see that is if we snuff ourselves out, which is possible.

I'm not talking about humans snuffing themselves out although I admit that's possible, I'm talking about humans replacing parts of themselves until there is no longer anything very human about them. Some signals in the brain move as slowly as .01 meters per second, the slow diffusion of hormones for example, but even the very fastest signals in the brain move at only 100 meters per second and light moves at 300,000,000 meters per second; and in a computer made with Nanotechnology the distances the signal must travel will be far shorter because the components will be much smaller. And that's without even considering Quantum Computers. There is just no way biology can compete with that.

> Nation states will otherwise  probably exist,

Their life expectancy depends on the evolution of Memes not the evolution of genes as in Darwinian evolution, but Memes evolve astronomically faster than genes.

 

> Human also will exist,

Information processing Turing Machines that remember once being human will still exist a century from now, but if you or I were to see one we wouldn't say they looked or acted like a human.

 John K Clark

[Lawrence Crowell]

I have serious doubts about a lot of these hyper-tech ideas that border on science fiction. I really question ideas of minds being downloaded into cybers, or the matryoshka ideas and so forth. These ideas sort of give me a sense of why there were so many of those 1950 science fiction and horror films about mad doctors or scientists hell bent on bizarre quests. I think for the average person these sorts of ideas probably sound little different. One has to remember that while we can pursue a better understanding of the universe, few people want their humanity taken away or to become robots. For some practical reasons I also think there are limits on these things.

LC  

[Telmo Menezes]

Hi Lawrence,

In your understanding of reality, what is the difference between a human and a robot*?

Cheers,

Telmo

* Let us assume sci-fi level stuff here

For some practical reasons I also think there are limits on these things.

LC  

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[John Clark]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:21 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> [Me] I'm not talking about humans snuffing themselves out although I admit that's possible, I'm talking about humans replacing parts of themselves until there is no longer anything very human about them. Some signals in the brain move as slowly as .01 meters per second, the slow diffusion of hormones for example, but even the very fastest signals in the brain move at only 100 meters per second and light moves at 300,000,000 meters per second; and in a computer made with Nanotechnology the distances the signal must travel will be far shorter because the components will be much smaller. And that's without even considering Quantum Computers. There is just no way biology can compete with that.

> I have serious doubts about a lot of these hyper-tech ideas that border on science fiction.

 

These ideas are technology fiction maybe but they are not science fiction. I'm not talking about backward time travel or faster than light spaceships, those things are probably physically impossible and would require a major breakthrough in science that would upend nearly everything we think we know about how the world works, I'm just talking about an improvement in technology. We just need to be able to place atoms where we want them to go (and we don't even need to get close to Heisenberg's limit). Everything else follows from that.  

> These ideas sort of give me a sense of why there were so many of those 1950 science fiction and horror films about mad doctors or scientists hell bent on bizarre quests. I think for the average person these sorts of ideas probably sound little different.

That is certainly true today and that's why Cryonics is not enormously more popular than it is. So I guess I'm not the average person. To tell the truth, when I was a kid I usually identified more with the mad scientist in those 1950s movies (Forbidden Planet was my favorite) than with the purported hero, and I thought Lex Luthor had more fun than Superman.    

> One has to remember that while we can pursue a better understanding of the universe, few people want their humanity taken away or to become robots.

What people want is not terribly relevant in this case, I'm sure the dinosaurs didn't want an asteroid crashing into the Yucatán 66 Million years ago, but it happened nevertheless.

> For some practical reasons I also think there are limits on these things. 

That might be the most comfortable thing for some people to believe but I see no reason to think it's actually true. Modern humans have only been around for about half a million years and you think that's as smart as things can get? A machine can approach our level of intelligence but never reach it? If humanity manages to avoid destruction by Trump and other existential threats you think the human species will remain unchanged on a geological time scale?  With the twin factors of the computer revolution and genetic engineering I don't think the human race will remain stable even for the remainder of this century.

John K Clark

[spudb...@aol.com]

Politically, the stability of the human species seems less dependent on John's estimation of the real estate guy, or fanatical, drooling, followers, like myself, but instead the decisions of Joe's special friend, Comrade Xi. It's often wise not to simply focus on a North American-centric pov, but understand the motivations of others. For war and peace issues, it is Xi who is the 800kg ape in the room, and his communist party does risk-embracing things like destroy the Uighers, or ruin Hong Kong, perhaps takeover Taiwan, or permit the Wuhan fly to spread worldwide to ensure no competitive advantage.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Trump is on drugs

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[spudb...@aol.com]

Understood, John, however, it is not we who pick the politicians. Thee people with sufficient cash pick the politicians, and this is know by different terms; lobbying, bribery, influence, persuasion, and all the good things that makes life possible. However, as long as the nation-state is still functionally valid, one needs to take some care of one's home, simply for safety's sake. The dems are now the party of Blmtifa, and its crony capitalist$, we, have our own, or rather, they have us! Now, the Blmtifa party, the dems, seem to think they can win a non-legal civil conflict. This must be proven not at the ballot box, but the streets. So, to all, it is now, aux camarades des barricades,' in memory of the communards of 1871.  

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com

Cc: goldenfield...@gmail.com <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 8:26 am
Subject: Re: Trump is on drugs

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[spudb...@aol.com]

Well, we can see that having the elites in power as they are now constituted are bad for the middle class, good, for the globalist elites. 
My opinion is solidly with, the US middle class, and not with any elite, who funds either party $$$.

The Iran thing is completely side-stepped by the Golden One's mid-east workarounds. Obama's loyalty to the ayatollahs is sacred.

The drug thing is valid indeed, but having, for example Pritzker in the governorship of Illinois(d) hasn't driven down costs one dime.

Regime change was all Bush43's, and he refused to go after Osama in  2001, and helping the old Saudi's escape justice is vile.

Obama was the one that approved the Pakistan strike against Bin Laden. I ask myself why, and know the answer.

Obama followed suit with protecting his Sunni pals in Saudi (old 911 regime) and during his presidency protected these. Take note.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-apr-11-oe-unger11-story.html

https://wwwhttps://nypost.com/2016/04/20/america-deserves-the-truth-about-the-saudis-and-911/.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/obama-vetoes-bill-let-9-11-families-sue-saudi-arabia-n652911

Now, please consider these sources and then triangulate.

Cops shooting blacks? Are black males automatically, immune to obeying police orders during an arrest? Latin's and whites get it too!

For climate change, please make solar and wind power and storage work well enough so everyone goes for it. Otherwise, no sale. 

On thriving, using common economic standards, Orange dude was able to achieve the lowest general unemployment rate in US history.

Also, the lowest Black unemployment rate (BLS economists) in US history. Politically this meant that a growing number of Blacks have:

Concluded, that if you have a job that bring enough money (there's never enough!) the government can go F*** itself. 

A growing amount of Latinos have concluded this as well.

There! questions raised and then answered. I call it Man-Splaining!

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 12:56 am
Subject: Re: Trump is on drugs

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[Brent Meeker]

On 10/11/2020 4:47 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

Well, we can see that having the elites in power as they are now constituted are bad for the middle class, good, for the globalist elites. 
My opinion is solidly with, the US middle class, and not with any elite, who funds either party $$$.

The Iran thing is completely side-stepped by the Golden One's mid-east workarounds. Obama's loyalty to the ayatollahs is sacred.

The drug thing is valid indeed, but having, for example Pritzker in the governorship of Illinois(d) hasn't driven down costs one dime.

Regime change was all Bush43's, and he refused to go after Osama in  2001, and helping the old Saudi's escape justice is vile.

Obama was the one that approved the Pakistan strike against Bin Laden. I ask myself why, and know the answer.

Obama followed suit with protecting his Sunni pals in Saudi (old 911 regime) and during his presidency protected these. Take note.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-apr-11-oe-unger11-story.html

https://wwwhttps://nypost.com/2016/04/20/america-deserves-the-truth-about-the-saudis-and-911/.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/obama-vetoes-bill-let-9-11-families-sue-saudi-arabia-n652911

Just because you've thrown a lot of shit in the air doesn't prove it's raining.

Now, please consider these sources and then triangulate.

Cops shooting blacks? Are black males automatically, immune to obeying police orders during an arrest?

Oh, so in your America failing to obey a police order, like "Stop breathing on my knee." is not only a capital offense, the police are authorized to judge and execute it.

Latin's and whites get it too!

Yes, they too are subject to heinous police brutality in about the same numbers as blacks...even though they are seven times as numerous in the population.

For climate change, please make solar and wind power and storage work well enough so everyone goes for it.

You so well it can compete with the heavily subsidized oil industry; subsidized not only by tax breaks but by having the military secure their sources for them.

Otherwise, no sale. 

On thriving, using common economic standards, Orange dude was able to achieve the lowest general unemployment rate in US history.

Yeah, he got Congress to cut taxes even though unemployment was already very low (due to he who must never be credited).  But then he made a calculation that his looking good was more important than the lives of hundreds of thousands to citizens.

Also, the lowest Black unemployment rate (BLS economists) in US history. Politically this meant that a growing number of Blacks have:

Concluded, that if you have a job that bring enough money (there's never enough!) the government can go F*** itself.

And all of the country with a functional brain cell has concluded that the best place for the Mango Mussolini is in prison.

A growing amount of Latinos have concluded this as well.

There! questions raised and then answered. I call it Man-Splaining!

Pull your tin-foil hat down further and maybe it will protect you from inhaling any covid-19 and conspiracy theories.

Brent

[spudb...@aol.com]

Basically you are stating the unemployment rate was never high, after the 08 crash? It was all flowers and unicorns for jobs under Bammer? Even 43 did far better in 2 years after 9-11, then Bammer did under 8 years of misrule. Police brutality is never mentioned by your media anymore, but only as a feature if the officers are white and the victim, black. Fits the holy narrative, check! Now to your chart. Mine is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and like yours goes back some years, but even more, so. One might then conclude that over the last 10 years, unemployment has dropped steadily? I do know, by experience, that Orange's job creation rate was much greater then the Great Provider of Trac phones his constituency.  

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 9:26 pm
Subject: Re: Trump is on drugs

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[Lawrence Crowell]

I would say in general with a machine you can see the seems, bolts and rivets while a biological system you don't. You can turn off a machine, but a biological system does not turn back on. Biological systems are spontaneous and will act accordingly. A computer with no input just sits there. While there are clearly Turning machine or Church-Turing aspects of how brains or neural systems work, there are also huge departures. 

LC

[Lawrence Crowell]

After WWII Enrico Fermi asked "where are they?" In other words, if intelligent life is some byproduct of biological evolution then these ETs or IGUS (Intelligent Gathering and Utilizing Systems) should move into space and fill a galaxy. Yet we find no evidence of such, and UFO claims are far down on the signal to noise ratio. 

I would say that planets with highly advanced life forms and biologically complex ecosystems are probably fairly rare. I did a study on planets comparable to Earth and my estimate is maybe there are only a few thousand in this galaxy comparable to Earth. Of course I might be wrong, but so far extrasolar planetary searches have not found a second Earth. The time stamp for Homo sapiens is only 150,000 years, where this is out of 550 million years of complex life and 3.7 of biological history. So there is the problem of finding biologically active planets. Then in this Drake equation sort of thinking it implies that intelligent life will be even rarer. So far SETI is detecting only silence out there.

There is also the problem of technically capable IGUS altering their planetary environment in ways that might make their continued existence impossible. There is a lot of evidence to support that hypothesis with respect to Homo sapiens. In fabricating a synthetic world system the natural systems of the planet are exploited or contaminated and this leads to a collapse. So IGUS in the majority of cases probably do not advance much further than say we have. We have to compound this with the fact we have nuclear weaponry arrayed with as much energy equivalent to several thousand World War IIs. I think the large probability is that humanity will enter an implosion or failure mode within a few decades. 

If there is some role that IGUS have in this universe I really doubt it is with these Sci-Fi ideas. It might be that we humans and other IGUS around this universe, which could have an infinite spatial extent, measure by gravitational waves and say neutrino physics the earliest state of the universe. This might have a delayed choice effect, where the collective set of these measurements select the values of field parameters, say Higgs coupling etc, and in a quantum gravitational setting a vast, maybe infinite, set of IGUS might select this cosmology as the classical world out of the vast number of possible cosmologies in the landscape, or maybe Vafa's "swampland." In that way humanity might play its infinitesimal role in the Wheeler delayed choice experiment of selecting the observable cosmos as what is einselected as real.

When it comes to these hyper-future ideas, say Star Trek as the canonical idea, I have grave doubts about those. I have pretty serious doubts about whether humanity, or some bio-engineered or cyborganic extension of us, will even colonize the solar system. In fact this corona virus situation might be a signal of humanity's future down slope fall into implosion. A part of it is that in some ways we have evolved so some of us have a fair amount of intelligence, but honestly the average person is really not that bright. To evolve to some higher intelligence any ET or IGUS probably has to pass through the semi-intelligent phase, or where a majority of its members are marginally intelligent. I put in an image with text of a speech t'Rump gave. This is typical of his speeches and it takes little serious judgment to say these are the missives of an imbecile. He has the nuclear football, he denies science regularly and made a muddle of the current pandemic. This moron has a 42% approval rating, which is some approximate measure IMO of the average intelligence of human beings. It is not a good sign, and much the same happened with the rise of fascism and Nazism in the last century, and if you read Dicken's "Tale of Two Cities" you get a sense of the same during the French Revolution before then. We even have supporters of this sort of inane nonsense on this list. Honestly, I see our situation as not at all good. We might not even participate in this possible cosmic Wheeler delayed choice experiment.

LC

[John Clark]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 6:15 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would say in general with a machine you can see the seems, bolts and rivets while a biological system you don't.

A trivial difference, one has cartilage the other has bolts and rivets.  

 

> You can turn off a machine, but a biological system does not turn back on.

So an artificial machine can do something that a natural biological machine can not, and that will be far from the only advantage they have. 

 

> Biological systems are spontaneous and will act accordingly.

I don't know what you mean by that. All machines, both natural and artificial, either do things for a reason and thus are deterministic or they do things for no reason and thus are random. Natural or artificial it makes no difference, they're either cuckoo clocks or roulette wheels.  

 

> A computer with no input just sits there.

A computer with no inputs can still calculate the digits of PI, and so can a human who can't see, hear, feel, smell, or taste. Although the human would perform the calculation much much slower and be more error-prone.

 

> While there are clearly Turning machine or Church-Turing aspects of how brains or neural systems work, there are also huge departures.

Huge departures? I can't even think of any tiny departures and neither can anybody else, nobody has ever found a problem that a human can solve that a Turing Machine couldn't.  

John K Clark

[Brent Meeker]

On 10/12/2020 3:15 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

I would say in general with a machine you can see the seems, bolts and rivets while a biological system you don't. You can turn off a machine, but a biological system does not turn back on. Biological systems are spontaneous and will act accordingly. A computer with no input just sits there.

That raises an interesting question though.  Will a brain with no input function?  I've heard that in experiments using sensory deprivation tanks, people's thought tend to go into a loop; even though the sensory input isn't strictly zero.

Brent

[Lawrence Crowell]

Human minds can ask questions, computers outside of pre-programmed prompts do not. A computer can compute tens of thousands of zeros to the Riemann zeta function, a human mind seeks a proof of the conjecture. 

LC

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:17:34 PM UTC-5 Brent wrote:

On 10/12/2020 3:15 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

I would say in general with a machine you can see the seems, bolts and rivets while a biological system you don't. You can turn off a machine, but a biological system does not turn back on. Biological systems are spontaneous and will act accordingly. A computer with no input just sits there.

That raises an interesting question though.  Will a brain with no input function?  I've heard that in experiments using sensory deprivation tanks, people's thought tend to go into a loop; even though the sensory input isn't strictly zero.

Brent

People in sensory deprivation tanks at some point start entering hallucinations. Think of the standard computer, such as one's desktop or laptop, if you boot it up it then just sits there. So long as the power is up it will just stay there in this resting state. 

I have thought there is some possible intellectual revolution with understanding how brains work. There seems in ways to a a more general principle for how states in network systems evolve. 

LC

[Brent Meeker]

On 10/12/2020 2:12 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

Human minds can ask questions, computers outside of pre-programmed prompts do not.

Untrue.  It's quite easy to program a computer to ask questions based on inputs from the environment.  You cel phone will ask you, "Do you want to answer this call? It looks like spam."  and it makes that judgement "It looks like spam." based on the source, content, and past experience.

A computer can compute tens of thousands of zeros to the Riemann zeta function, a human mind seeks a proof of the conjecture.

There a automatic proof programs too.

Brent

LC

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:03:48 AM UTC-5 johnk...@gmail.com wrote:

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 6:15 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would say in general with a machine you can see the seems, bolts and rivets while a biological system you don't.

A trivial difference, one has cartilage the other has bolts and rivets.  

 

> You can turn off a machine, but a biological system does not turn back on.

So an artificial machine can do something that a natural biological machine can not, and that will be far from the only advantage they have. 

 

> Biological systems are spontaneous and will act accordingly.

I don't know what you mean by that. All machines, both natural and artificial, either do things for a reason and thus are deterministic or they do things for no reason and thus are random. Natural or artificial it makes no difference, they're either cuckoo clocks or roulette wheels.  

 

> A computer with no input just sits there.

A computer with no inputs can still calculate the digits of PI, and so can a human who can't see, hear, feel, smell, or taste. Although the human would perform the calculation much much slower and be more error-prone.

 

> While there are clearly Turning machine or Church-Turing aspects of how brains or neural systems work, there are also huge departures.

Huge departures? I can't even think of any tiny departures and neither can anybody else, nobody has ever found a problem that a human can solve that a Turing Machine couldn't.  

John K Clark

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[Brent Meeker]

On 10/12/2020 2:18 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 3:17:34 PM UTC-5 Brent wrote:

On 10/12/2020 3:15 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

I would say in general with a machine you can see the seems, bolts and rivets while a biological system you don't. You can turn off a machine, but a biological system does not turn back on. Biological systems are spontaneous and will act accordingly. A computer with no input just sits there.

That raises an interesting question though.  Will a brain with no input function?  I've heard that in experiments using sensory deprivation tanks, people's thought tend to go into a loop; even though the sensory input isn't strictly zero.

Brent

People in sensory deprivation tanks at some point start entering hallucinations. Think of the standard computer, such as one's desktop or laptop, if you boot it up it then just sits there. So long as the power is up it will just stay there in this resting state.

How do you know it's not hallucinating? :-)  It doesn't seem to be doing anything because it doesn't have any sensory input.  In fact my computer will upload email every ten minutes, sort through it and discard about half to Junk, a classification it learned by watching me.

Brent

I have thought there is some possible intellectual revolution with understanding how brains work. There seems in ways to a a more general principle for how states in network systems evolve. 

LC

 

While there are clearly Turning machine or Church-Turing aspects of how brains or neural systems work, there are also huge departures. 

LC

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 5:46:45 PM UTC-5 Brent wrote:

On 10/12/2020 2:12 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

Human minds can ask questions, computers outside of pre-programmed prompts do not.

Untrue.  It's quite easy to program a computer to ask questions based on inputs from the environment.  You cel phone will ask you, "Do you want to answer this call? It looks like spam."  and it makes that judgement "It looks like spam." based on the source, content, and past experience.

You did not understand what I said. Sure a computer can "ask a question," but it is just an audio-file executed when some "oracle condition" occurs. It is not as if the machine actually is thinking a question.

 

A computer can compute tens of thousands of zeros to the Riemann zeta function, a human mind seeks a proof of the conjecture.

There a automatic proof programs too.

Brent

But, we wrote the program, not the computer

LC 

[Brent Meeker]

On 10/12/2020 5:15 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 5:46:45 PM UTC-5 Brent wrote:

On 10/12/2020 2:12 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

Human minds can ask questions, computers outside of pre-programmed prompts do not.

Untrue.  It's quite easy to program a computer to ask questions based on inputs from the environment.  You cel phone will ask you, "Do you want to answer this call? It looks like spam."  and it makes that judgement "It looks like spam." based on the source, content, and past experience.

You did not understand what I said.

I understood it perfectly.  You seem to be saying there's some extra-physical magic that your brain does that the computer can't.

Sure a computer can "ask a question," but it is just an audio-file executed when some "oracle condition" occurs. It is not as if the machine actually is thinking a question.

How do you know your questions are not just neural networks being executed?  Is it because you add on an inner narrative making a memory/record of having asked a question...no problem, the computer can do that too.  Do you suppose that a person can think things a Turing machine can't; that thinking is something more than information processing?

 

A computer can compute tens of thousands of zeros to the Riemann zeta function, a human mind seeks a proof of the conjecture.

There a automatic proof programs too.

Brent

But, we wrote the program, not the computer

So what. Evolution and education wrote your program.

Brent

LC 

LC

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:03:48 AM UTC-5 johnk...@gmail.com wrote:

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 6:15 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would say in general with a machine you can see the seems, bolts and rivets while a biological system you don't.

A trivial difference, one has cartilage the other has bolts and rivets.  

 

> You can turn off a machine, but a biological system does not turn back on.

So an artificial machine can do something that a natural biological machine can not, and that will be far from the only advantage they have. 

 

> Biological systems are spontaneous and will act accordingly.

I don't know what you mean by that. All machines, both natural and artificial, either do things for a reason and thus are deterministic or they do things for no reason and thus are random. Natural or artificial it makes no difference, they're either cuckoo clocks or roulette wheels.  

 

> A computer with no input just sits there.

A computer with no inputs can still calculate the digits of PI, and so can a human who can't see, hear, feel, smell, or taste. Although the human would perform the calculation much much slower and be more error-prone.

 

> While there are clearly Turning machine or Church-Turing aspects of how brains or neural systems work, there are also huge departures.

Huge departures? I can't even think of any tiny departures and neither can anybody else, nobody has ever found a problem that a human can solve that a Turing Machine couldn't.  

John K Clark

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[John Clark]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:15 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Human minds can ask questions, computers outside of pre-programmed prompts do not.

 

AlphaZero Can start with no knowledge of Chess, Shogi and Go except for the basic rules which specify which moves are legal and in less than 24 hours it can teach itself how to play those games at a superhuman level that no human can come close to matching.

 

> It is not as if the machine actually is thinking a question.

It sure looks to me like the question AlphaZero is asking is "How can I play better Chess, Shogi and Go?" and nobody gives him the answer, but 24 hours later AlphaZero finds the answer himself.

> Sure a computer can "ask a question," but it is just an audio-file 

You're whistling past the graveyard, it sure seems to me that AlphaZero is doing one hell of a lot more than that. Is it really your position that the human brain possesses some magical mojo that no machine could ever match?

> But, we wrote the program, not the computer

Humans wrote the original code for AlphaZero but it had so radically changed itself that 24 hours later no human being understands how it operates or why it made the decision it does, and I think it's safe to say no human being ever will. 

John K Clark

[Telmo Menezes]

Am Di, 13. Okt 2020, um 00:15, schrieb Lawrence Crowell:

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 5:46:45 PM UTC-5 Brent wrote:

On 10/12/2020 2:12 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

Human minds can ask questions, computers outside of pre-programmed prompts do not.

Untrue.  It's quite easy to program a computer to ask questions based on inputs from the environment.  You cel phone will ask you, "Do you want to answer this call? It looks like spam."  and it makes that judgement "It looks like spam." based on the source, content, and past experience.

You did not understand what I said. Sure a computer can "ask a question," but it is just an audio-file executed when some "oracle condition" occurs. It is not as if the machine actually is thinking a question.

Clark and Brent already posed all the main objections that I would pose myself, so I guess there is no point in piling on...

Instead I will ask you for a clarification, to make sure what your position is: do you feel that computers could one day develop what you refer to as "actual thinking", or do you think that there is some intrinsic limit to computation, and that our mind does something beyond than computation?

To be clear, my position is this: I bet that my mind can be emulated through computation (and I would not tell the difference, in other words I would say yes to the doctor), but I realize this cannot be proved. I am very suspicious of the idea that there is something "special" about us. I think that our species has a certain tendency to wanting to believe that.

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 12 Oct 2020, at 12:15, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would say in general with a machine you can see the seems, bolts and rivets while a biological system you don’t.

In both case we see particles and fields obeying computable laws, when we look at a digital machine implemented in some subset of the physical laws.

The first person associated with the machine cannot do. She does not know which computations run it, among the infinities of differentiating computations which run her in Arithmetic (with a big “A”, Arithmetic refers to the Model, that is the truth or semantic, not a theory of Arithmetic, like RA or PA).

You can turn off a machine, but a biological system does not turn back on.

OK. But that is contingent. In principle, perhaps through cryongenisation, if your body remains stable enough, we might turn you back on. 

Biological systems are spontaneous and will act accordingly.

That is what the Universal machine do. They are only partially computable. I am not sure what you mean by “spontaneous” to be sure.

A computer with no input just sits there.

There are many programs with no inputs which can do quite varied things, like executing a dreaming program. It looks it just sit there, but like a patient in a coma, he might be conscious (or might be associated to a conscious individual) without us able to notice it.

While there are clearly Turning machine or Church-Turing aspects of how brains or neural systems work, there are also huge departures. 

Perhaps, but without any evidence for this, let us continue to search it. What you are doing here, is to be that there is a difference between the physics inferred from observation and the physics mathematical subbranch of machine self-rerference.

Doing theology rationally and empirically consists in doing those experience, and although Newton physics contradicts Mechanism, up to now the quantum facts confirms it, even strikingly if we forget about the wave collapse reduction.

Fundamental science is just philosophy/theology done with the scientific attitude and method.

Bruno

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