The religious and Evolution

[John Clark]

On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 6:29 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I am never certain why God believers need to dismiss Evo as the "tool of The Lord" who has lots of time to wait things out out, and can do things in his, her's, theirs, it's way?  

 

It's very easy for me to understand why the religious don't like Darwinian Evolution, it's because it's completely incompatible with the idea of a benevolent God. I cannot imagine a more cruel way to make a complex object, like a human brain, than Evolution, every tiny advance requires an ocean of blood and pain endured by billions of creatures.  So in that regard at least the holy rollers are being consistent, Christians claim God is benevolent (even though God will torture you for an infinite number of years if you step 1 inch out of line) and that doesn't jive at all with billions of years of pain required for Evolution get anything done when an omnipotent benevolent God could simply make humans and animals directly by just snapping his fingers. Thus Christians, if they wish to remain consistent, are required to reject Evolution, believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, and think the Flintstones is a documentary series.

> PS- you and the rest here should rally forth on the existential (materialist) threats, such as the Ukraine, and energy reliance on fossil fuels, especially those where Vlad Putin is concerned?? I don't like the nuclear war thing at all, and the two facts seem...entangled

 

I have to say that unlike Christians dislike of Evolution, your love affair with Donald Trump is completely incompatible with your other beliefs, like your dislike of Vladimir Putin or his invasion of Ukraine. Even if Trump does have "good comic timing" as you claim, do you really think that's enough to compensate for the fact that he's an amoral ignoramus who hasn't read a book in half a century and thus is the best man to be in charge of the nuclear submarine fleet?  Just a few days after Putin started murdering people in Ukraine Trump said this: 

"I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,’ , Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful. So, Putin is now saying, ‘It’s independent,’ a large section of Ukraine. I said, ‘How smart is that?’”

And that's just a small part of Trump's bromance with Vladimir Putin:

Trump Best Comments on Vladimir Putin, Russia

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

ppw

 

[spudb...@aol.com]

John to be blunt, I saw Don in 2016, and 2020 as the better choice. On the nature of God, I understand and sympathize with those who find what is claimed by the religious, as their being rightly, afraid, of the big fist in the sky coming down for a smackdown.  So, for those pissed, I have no condemnation of them. In other words, I don't have the Keys to the Kingdom and yeah, I do understand pain. 

For foreign policy of the two gents, please flashback to July 2021 Afghanistan. My suspicion is this is what triggered Vlad to invade. Vlad did what leaders for centuries have done, look for weaknesses. So, I think Merkel is responsible for feeding the beast, (nat gas) much more than I do Joey. I do believe that Orange Man was trying to keep channels open with Vlad to keep things calm. He did set the US mils in Syria against attacking Wagner mercs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html

On energy policy which feeds into foreign policy, the idea of shutting down drilling, while not vigorously pushing for renewables at the time, is purely ideological and ant-survival. Even before Putin, gasoline shot up, now, with Vlad, 2050 Net zero must arrive quicker. You're an engineer, did you not run a new project concurrently, before shutting down the old process? It must be that pols who are lawyers don't get this I reckon? Even rednecks like solar and EV trucks, for example, so the demand is there. 

I figure, we all should opt for survival, even post mortem, so I am very ok with your cryo pursuit. What follows is a longer term fix, proposed.

https://boingboing.net/2021/04/07/scientist-proposes-new-plan-to-resurrect-the-dead-with-a-dyson-sphere-kind-of.html

So where's the information, obviously dispersed come from?

Well, ahem! There is this. 

https://turingchurch.net/the-infrared-memory-of-the-universe-hints-at-future-akashic-physics-3f9a072f0ca6

JC, yeah, I'd understand that LC and the principle author in this focus on physical phenomena would want nothing to do with this speculation. But, it seems to be a conclusion, so what can I say?  Between team Cryo and the interaction of gravity and photons, things may not be so dire as I usually look at it. Well, sometimes I feel this way? 

To sum it up, when my grade schools teachers intoned that this would go on my permanent record, they weren't kidding!

Via Con Cosmos, Spud

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[John Clark]

On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:40 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> John to be blunt, I saw Don in 2016, and 2020 as the better choice.

Yes, I know that's the way you saw things, and the fact that in 2016 that Trump's alleged "comic timing" blinded your moral sense and you could not see through Trump and determine just what sort of creature you were dealing with doesn't say much about the acuity of your judgments or ability to make good decisions. But what is worse, far far worse, is that even now, even after he bungled the Covid epidemic and caused hundreds of thousands of needless deaths, and even after he did something none of the previous 44 presidents had done and staged a coup d'état that if successful, if Mike Pence had done what Trump ordered him to do, would have destroyed the Constitution and democracy and 2020 would have been the last presidential election this country would ever have. I grant you that humor is subjective so there's no point in disputing matters of taste, but do you really rank "comic timing" higher than any other on your list of virtues?

>  I understand and sympathize with those who find what is claimed by the religious, as their being rightly, afraid, of the big fist in the sky coming down for a smackdown.  So, for those pissed, I have no condemnation of them. In other words, I don't have the Keys to the Kingdom and yeah, I do understand pain.

Then why on earth are you for Donald Trump? The man understands his own pain but as far as other people are concerned they're just robots incapable of feeling pain. Donald Trump has no empathy, not a single nanogram of it.

> For foreign policy of the two gents, please flashback to July 2021 Afghanistan. My suspicion is this is what triggered Vlad to invade. Vlad did what leaders for centuries have done, look for weaknesses.

Joe Biden removed US military forces from Afghanistan that had been there for 20 years and accomplished nothing in all that time, Biden did something Donald Trump had said we should be doing long before he became president, but even though he was president for 4 years Trump never had the guts to do more than just talk about getting out of Afghanistan, he didn't have the courage to take the political risk and actually do it. I can't help but compare the dramatic difference between the situation in Ukraine and the situation in Afghanistan and Vietnam, in the first case we have an ally that has very high morale that is willing to fight against a much larger enemy that has low morale, and in the second 2 cases we had allies with low morale facing a much smaller enemy with very high morale willing to die for their cause (the fact that their cause was idiotic is militarily irrelevant).

> So, I think Merkel is responsible for feeding the beast, (nat gas) much more than I do Joey.

I agree with you there, for decades the US had been telling Germany it was dangerous to rely so much on Russian fossil fuel but they ignored the warning and took the opposite approach, they even shut down their nuclear reactors (which don't increase global warming) and became even more dependent on Russia for their energy.  

> On energy policy which feeds into foreign policy, the idea of shutting down drilling, while not vigorously pushing for renewables at the time, is purely ideological and ant-survival.

Again I agree with you provided nuclear power is considered renewable, and I think it has just as much a right to be called that as solar energy does because at current rates of power consumption we will run out of thorium in the Earth's crust to operate thorium nuclear reactors about the same time the sun will run out of hydrogen in its core and as a result turns into a red giant and destroys the Earth.

>I figure, we all should opt for survival, even post mortem, so I am very ok with your cryo pursuit. What follows is a longer term fix, proposed.
https://boingboing.net/2021/04/07/scientist-proposes-new-plan-to-resurrect-the-dead-with-a-dyson-sphere-kind-of.html

Hmmm.... Maybe you're not completely hopeless after all.

> So where's the information, obviously dispersed come from?
Well, ahem! There is this. 
https://turingchurch.net/the-infrared-memory-of-the-universe-hints-at-future-akashic-physics-3f9a072f0ca6

 Because it was advocated by such loonies as Edgar Casey it certainly smells crackpot, but after you strip out the idiotic stuff like astral lights and Atlantis there is nothing inherently irrational about Akashic records, in fact if quantum mechanics is correct then information cannot be destroyed; for decades Stephen Hawkings thought a black hole could destroy information but then he changed his mind and figured that even a black hole couldn't do that. But the information would be so well scrambled that I very much doubt even a Jupiter brain could put Humpty Dumpty back together, that's why I chose the place my faith in liquid nitrogen. By the way, Giulio Prisco, the author of the article you cite, was the cofounder, along with me, of the Extropolis list.

  John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

elm

[spudb...@aol.com]

For Covid, he didn't bungle it. What he did was cut flights from China, which Pelosi claimed was racist. Orange man did operation Warp Speed which funded the hell out of Moderna and Pfizer vaccine development, and left some over for Pfizers development of Pavlovid, a treatment, which you and I argued about whether it was too expensive, remember? I said, its the wiser way to go. Make the plagues not kill people. You had sticker shock about this, back in the day. 

The pentagon mils claimed they warned Joey about doing afghan withdrawal as he did, but he insisted. (I think he did what Barrack wanted). I have since noticed that Joe is a bit more nuanced in his FP dealings now and has from a Pacific War potential, sort of cloned Orange Man's stuff-not so with the Chi-comm imports. For the German thing, it was a gamble they Germans obviously felt confident about without ever considering what happens when things go sideways? Joe was a minor leaguer compared to the EU on being committed to appeasement. Didn't work for Daladier & Chamberlain, didn't work for Merkel either. China? That big shoe has yet to drop. 

Good news about Giulio there. He is a pragmatist and did good work at CERN (software) and the ESA (software telemetry?). He is as a physicist, knowledgeable   enough to comprehend, (unlike myself) physics annals and essays, and found some useful things. Some others such as Tipler will be on his TERASEM zoom on 7/20 as you already know. I still like Hans Moravec's work and thought that the papers in the supersymetry presentation sort of favored Moravec's interpretation of a Big Data Recovery Project at some far, future time. I mentally bundled that possibility with Turchin's discussion about using the Dyson Sphere as a resurrection maker. Rather that ask (as Christians in the 90's presented on bumper stickers) WWJD it would address HWJDI or How Would Jesus Do It, the mechanics? 

Dr. Prisco holds that all such things appear thousands to millions of years in the future. With AI crunching things much better, it may happen sooner, maybe? For today, we need to prevent Putin from ending the world and I am not sure how? Speaking of the existential? 

The late physicist Criswell, thought that our descendent will come up with a fix for preventing the sun from going red giant, using particle beams. The Russian physicist Schadkov wrote of moving planets around (right out of Olaf Stapledon's Star Maker).

Megastructures: Shkadov Thrusters — Greg School

On scrambled data there is this-

Quantum scrambling could lead to resurrection of the dead

Quantum scrambling could lead to resurrection of the dead | by Tim Andersen, Ph.D. | The Infinite Universe | Medium

It's always good to be skeptical, but let's not miss out on a good thing.

Over and Out, Tom Corbett, Space Cadet

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>

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[John Clark]

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 11:53 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> For Covid, he [Teump] didn't bungle it. What he did was cut flights from China, which Pelosi claimed was racist.

I don't feel it's my duty to defend every utterance a Democrat makes and Pelosi was clearly wrong to say that, but in the end it's now clear it would've made little difference if the flights have been cut or not; by the time Trump made that decision Covid was already so well-established in the US and was spreading so fast that the only point in stopping US border crossings was to protect the rest of the world from the US not protect the US from the rest of the world. In the past I've recounted the enormous number of times Trump bungled his response to the epidemic and tried to downplay the seriousness of Covid (at least in public, in private conversations it's evident he knew how serious it was and was lying to the American people), so I won't repeat all that now, this time i'll just pick one example. Even in late 2020, when almost 1 million Americans had died of Covid and they were on the campaign trail, Trump made fun of Joe Biden for wearing a surgical mask and ordered his vice president not to wear one even when he visited a hospital full of sick people. And that is simply despicable.

Pence flouts hospital policy, goes maskless in Mayo Clinic visit

> Orange man did operation Warp Speed

Yes and that was a good thing, but can you think of any human being who was the leader of a major country that would NOT start throwing money at vaccine development when faced with a HUGE crisis like Covid?  Hell even Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping started spending lots of money to develop their own vaccines, but they used older technology not CRISPER and so their vaccines didn't work nearly as well as the ones developed in the West.

> which funded the hell out of Moderna and Pfizer vaccine development,

Pfizer didn’t receive any funding from Operation Warp Speed for the development, clinical trial and manufacturing of the vaccine. The key part of Pfizer's vaccine came from CRISPR RNA technology and that came from a different company called BioNTech which Pfizer partnered with. BioNTech did use taxpayer money to fund its research and development, but it was GERMAN taxpayers who did that, not American taxpayers. 

Germany funded the development of Pfizer’s COVID vaccine—not U.S.’s Operation Warp Speed

 

> and left some over for Pfizers development of Pavlovid, a treatment, which you and I argued about whether it was too expensive, remember? I said, its the wiser way to go. Make the plagues not kill people. You had sticker shock about this, back in the day. 

Back in the day I said vaccine development for bacterial and viral diseases was far more important than improving treatment for those diseases, and I say exactly the same thing today. 

 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

vdx

[spudb...@aol.com]

Well, all I am asking is that one acknowledges the difference from something that seems to work good, from something that works poorly. He did warpspeed good, and yeah, Pfizer-Biontech was the principle winner in fundage. Does it induce myocarditis in young athletes? I don't? A broader approach, so as we argued last year, would still have been to identify effective treatments for Covid, rather than prevention. I could be wrong in this approach, but don't see how?

On foreign policy, things may go sideways (Vlad) and our species is forgotten by the universe. I cannot say more.  For me, Swedens non-shutdown worked no worse than the tight shutdowns of their EU neighbors, from a mortality pov. 

There are so many current pics of dem politicians showing up at gatherings that they demanded everyone else suit up, that its insane. Right into 2022. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/stacey-abrams-wades-school-mask-debate-maskless-photo-children-rcna15231

 Hypocrisy is a given trait with almost everyone, and I don't get bent out of shape about it. But when it does get raised as a thing, it does require and answer of sorts. Don being a hypocrite, yeah, Joey, yeah, and so on. The main thing to consider is are masks effective enough and what should we do next?

We do need (topic hopping) to be in a position to replace fossil fuels as soon as we reasonable. Until then, let us foul the climate to survive and then massively switch over to the good stuff, beating Vlad's war effort and yeah Xi's (Leftists love Xi's slave labor made solar panels). 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2022/06/07/biden-to-usher-in-cheap-chinese-panels-with-solar-power-shake-up/?sh=551c801666fd

https://www.coloradopolitics.com/biden-to-suspend-tariffs-on-asian-solar-panels/article_71c4dde6-d466-5133-8c35-265053d1b2be.html

Its not the hypocrisy that I dislike its the reliance (both parties) on a hostile, existential threat, state that sticks it to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: spudb...@aol.com
Cc: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 7, 2022 8:33 am
Subject: Re: The religious and Evolution

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