Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
Alan Grayson
Alan Grayson
Alan Grayson
Bruno Marchal
On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AG
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Alan Grayson
On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AGBecause the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
Philip Benjamin
[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are and never can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities. Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are not theories. CopenPagan Interpretation (a malaprop) is a pagan world-view, not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with Niels Bohr.
Philip Benjamin
Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DA6C2075-1CAE-46E7-87D7-33C2E3DD308D%40ulb.ac.be.
Alan Grayson
[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are and never can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities. Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are not theories. CopenPagan Interpretation (a malaprop) is a pagan world-view, not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with Niels Bohr.
Philip Benjamin
Philip Benjamin
https://www.space.com/wave-or-particle-ask-a-spaceman.html
Is electron Wave or a Particle? It's Both, Sort Of. . “ What's going on? Electrons are acting LIKE waves when they don't look anything like waves. What's doing the waving?”
By Paul Sutter September 30, 2019
Paul M. Sutter is an astrophysicist at The Ohio State University, host of Ask a Spaceman and Space Radio, and author of "Your Place in the Universe." Sutter contributed this article to Space.com's Expert Voices: Op-Ed & Insights.
“The electron consists of ten wave centers at its core, which are physical particles, but what is measured as the electron’s energy or mass is its standing wave structure. Therefore, it has both particle and wave features. ……. In the 1920s, a young physicist named Louis de Broglie made a radical suggestion: Since light has energy, momentum and a wavelength, and matter has energy and momentum, maybe matter has a wavelength, too….. was de Broglie just horribly mistaken?”
everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
[Philip Benjamin]
SORT OF !! Means wave-like not wavy particle. AS IF Logic, Not Bothe & Fallacy. Acting LIKE waves. Both electrons and photons have momentum. Features do not imply ontological properties. Wave centers at its core are physical particles, Electron microscope and photon microscope both are based on the BEHAVIOR [not BEING] of particles AS waves. There is a BIG difference between BEHAVIOR & BEING. de Broglie was not mistaken. He used the term wavelike. Mystics and occultists later substituted it with waviness. Einstein NEVER agreed with Bohr’s interpretations based on Taoism.
Wrath & anger are no solutions to ontological problems. All true sciences deal with epistemology, not ontology.
Philip Benjamin CC. Space.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Philip Benjamin
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/57789/...
“The myth that electrons are waves or behave as waves or sometimes are waves and sometimes are not, depending of the observer, is one of the more persistent myths that surround quantum mechanics. Electrons can exist in the same state. E.g. one electron in an hydrogen atom can be in the same state than another electron in another atom”.
Philip Benjamin
Wave-likeness ≠ Waviness
everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Alan Grayson
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2021 2:02 PM Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 8:47:03 AM UTC-6 medinuclear wrote:
[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are and never can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities. Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are not theories. CopenPagan Interpretation (a malaprop) is a pagan world-view, not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with Niels Bohr.
Philip Benjamin
You're an idiot. Please don't reply again on this thread. Apparently, you've never heard of something called an electron microscope. AG
Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:
When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AG
Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.
Bruno
--
.
Alan Grayson
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/57789/...
“The myth that electrons are waves or behave as waves or sometimes are waves and sometimes are not, depending of the observer, is one of the more persistent myths that surround quantum mechanics. Electrons can exist in the same state. E.g. one electron in an hydrogen atom can be in the same state than another electron in another atom”.
Philip Benjamin
Wave-likeness ≠ Waviness
Bruno Marchal
On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AGBecause the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead and Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE?
And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AG
That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.Bruno--
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Bruno Marchal
On 10 Apr 2021, at 16:47, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are and never can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities.
Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are not theories. CopenPagan Interpretation (a malaprop) is a pagan world-view, not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with Niels Bohr.
Philip Benjamin
Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:
When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AG
Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.
Bruno
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Alan Grayson
On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AGBecause the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead and Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE?By NOT adding the collapse postulate. Then even a state as “macroscopic” as being a dead or alive cat will inherit the superposition ilmplied by Schroedinger’s setting. That follows from the double linearly of both the wave evolution and of the tensor products. The fact that a correct description would use a huge number of dimension and a lot of tensor products cannot be used to make the superposition going away.And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AGBecause all pure superposition state gives different predictions than their corresponding mixed state.
Philip Benjamin
[Bruno Marchal mar...@ulb.ac.be]
“But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole point of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism)”.
[Philip Benjamin]
That is indeed physics proper. One has to appreciate your methodical and systematic approach to this problem. It is commendable that, unlike the order of the day, you do not rely on the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad Verecundiam respect for “authority” of customs, institutions and I.Q.s, to strengthen your argument and provide an illusion of proof. However, probabilities are not necessarily possibilities. Amplitude of PROBABILITIES is no exception. A theory of reality is not REALITY itself. Numbers form 0 to infinity are syncategorematic nouns. Numbers of what? 2 + 2 = 4 is not a categorematic expression of REALITY unless the “of what” is specified. 2 electrons + 2 electrons = 4 electrons is a categorematic statement. The probability of a massive particle being (or even becoming) a massless wave is zero, nada, zilch. If my memory is correct even in a nuclear reaction (explosion, included), the total charge before and after a nuclear reaction is conserved; so also the total NUMBER of nucleons before and after a reaction are also the same. It is the binding energies that are released.
As far as electrons in these PROBABILITES you cite are concerned, Bohr has already assigned them to “stationary orbits” (predetermined energy levels). Then where do the new “stationary orbits” of NEW REALITIES speculated in various “mathematical/statistical” theories originate? What kind of “chemistries” are available for these NEW REALITIES, such as Many Worlds etc. ? What is the nature of a Many World chemistry?
Philip Benjamin
Bruno Marchal
On 14 Apr 2021, at 16:33, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 4:40:08 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AGBecause the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead and Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE?By NOT adding the collapse postulate. Then even a state as “macroscopic” as being a dead or alive cat will inherit the superposition ilmplied by Schroedinger’s setting. That follows from the double linearly of both the wave evolution and of the tensor products. The fact that a correct description would use a huge number of dimension and a lot of tensor products cannot be used to make the superposition going away.And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AGBecause all pure superposition state gives different predictions than their corresponding mixed state.Is this your idea of a proof, or even a plausibility argument? AG
Of course, it is technologically hopeless to maintain a real cat is a real superposition, but this is only due to our technical impossibility to isolate the cat from us. The cat state will leak to us very quickly, and we will lose the mean to get the sign of interferences. Yet, without assuming some collapse, it is there forever…That is a confirmation of mechanism, where an infinity of distinguishable computations access our (relative) states, and makes us possibly diverging into an infinity of alternate histories/computations.The burden of the proof belongs to those who claim that there is an ontological physical reality, but then you got the “mind-body” problem, the “why there is something” problem, and also, you need to speculate of a non mechanist theory in psychology and biology (making Darwin loosing all its explanative power).There are tuns of evidences for Mechanism, and none for Materialism, as we know since the Dream Argument, given that “evidences” are dream-able.(Many people confuse the evidences for the physical laws, which are number relations, with evidences for an ontological physical universes, but those are different. The ontological question is a metaphysical question, not a physical question. It is to used in any paper of physics, even if implicit in the mind of some cosmologists … perhaps.BrunoThat’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.Bruno--
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Bruno Marchal
On 14 Apr 2021, at 17:15, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:[Bruno Marchal mar...@ulb.ac.be]“But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole point of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism)”.[Philip Benjamin]That is indeed physics proper. One has to appreciate your methodical and systematic approach to this problem. It is commendable that, unlike the order of the day, you do not rely on the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad Verecundiam respect for “authority” of customs, institutions and I.Q.s, to strengthen your argument and provide an illusion of proof. However, probabilities are not necessarily possibilities. Amplitude of PROBABILITIES is no exception. A theory of reality is not REALITY itself.
Numbers form 0 to infinity are syncategorematic nouns.
Numbers of what? 2 + 2 = 4 is not a categorematic expression of REALITY unless the “of what” is specified.
2 electrons + 2 electrons = 4 electrons is a categorematic statement. The probability of a massive particle being (or even becoming) a massless wave is zero, nada, zilch. If my memory is correct even in a nuclear reaction (explosion, included), the total charge before and after a nuclear reaction is conserved; so also the total NUMBER of nucleons before and after a reaction are also the same. It is the binding energies that are released.As far as electrons in these PROBABILITES you cite are concerned, Bohr has already assigned them to “stationary orbits” (predetermined energy levels). Then where do the new “stationary orbits” of NEW REALITIES speculated in various “mathematical/statistical” theories originate? What kind of “chemistries” are available for these NEW REALITIES, such as Many Worlds etc. ? What is the nature of a Many World chemistry?
Philip BenjaminFrom: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 5:47 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's catOn 10 Apr 2021, at 16:47, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:[Philip Benjamin]Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are and never can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities.But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole point of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism).Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are not theories. CopenPagan Interpretation (a malaprop) is a pagan world-view, not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with Niels Bohr.Which suggest that Einstein would have preferred Everett to Bohr. It is sad that Einstein died in 1955. Everett published the “many-worlds” formulation of QM (QM without collapse) in 1957. Most cosmologists prefer Everett, as it is hard to imagine some being observing the whole universe to collapse it in some state. Note that Belifante does exactly that: he claims that the use of QM in coslmology requires an observer for the whole universe, and likes to call it God, admitting that such a god is only a wave collapse, but Everett, like Mechanism, illustrates that this move is not necessary. We need only 2+2=4 & Co.BrunoPhilip BenjaminSaturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's catOn 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AGBecause the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.Bruno
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Philip Benjamin
Hi, Bruno:
I must say, you are reasonable, (unlike many whom one can identify as the authoritarian WAMP!!). This deserves a thoughtful reply which I hope to do later (time constraints now). Thanks for meaningful dialogue. Philip
.
Alan Grayson
On 14 Apr 2021, at 16:33, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 4:40:08 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AGBecause the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead and Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE?By NOT adding the collapse postulate. Then even a state as “macroscopic” as being a dead or alive cat will inherit the superposition ilmplied by Schroedinger’s setting. That follows from the double linearly of both the wave evolution and of the tensor products. The fact that a correct description would use a huge number of dimension and a lot of tensor products cannot be used to make the superposition going away.And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AGBecause all pure superposition state gives different predictions than their corresponding mixed state.Is this your idea of a proof, or even a plausibility argument? AGIt is elementary quantum mechanics. If you measure “1/sqrt(2)(spin-up + spin-down)” is the base {spin-up, spin-down}, you get different results than measuring a half-half mixture of spin-up and spin-dow. This is usually illustrate with polarisers in the textbook.Bruno
Bruno Marchal
versus a mixed state with same amplitudes.
It may be simple to show, but I admit to not being able to see any difference between the cases. AG
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Philip Benjamin
[Bruno Marchal]
“Good question. I can answer some of them in the frame of the computationalist hypothesis. Everything physical emerges from arithmetic as seen from inside in some mode of self-reference. What many people miss is that the notions of computer and computation are an arithmetical notion.
Another “cultural” problem, since Aristotle, is the confusion between the (many) evidences that there is a physical reality, and the (absent) evidences that this physical reality is fundamental or primitive (= has to be assumed, or = cannot be derived from less).” Bruno
[Philip Benjamin]
Out of arithmetic only arithmetic can arise. Even that is questionable, because all arithmetic about any physicality is already predetermined—nothing new ARISES. No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with life. Dead physicality is governed by binding energies including chemical energies ruled by chemical laws of bonding encoded as duet and octet configurations of particles of opposite spins. Life cannot arise from DEAD physicality. Bohr was fundamentally wrong in introducing undefined subjectivity (whatever that means) of living matter into quantum physics. Subjectivity is supposed to collapse a mathematical/statistical function, which in turn causes subjectivity. Nothing could be more circular than that. Moreover, if subjectivity affects a wavefunction either the former is also a mathematical function or the latter has also subjectivity. Otherwise it is a category error. A probability is a theoretical NUMBER which has no CREATIVE powers and no aseity!! . Amplitudes do not change that status. It has now become one of the gods of Western Acade-Media Paganism (WAMP).
There are only two cultures possible for the entire human race: 1 . Pagan culture of un-awakened/kundalini/reptilian consciousness; 2 . Non-pagan culture of awakened/quickened/regenerated consciousness. All the rest are sub-cultures of these two. Awakening in turn is historically of two types: 1 . Intrinsic-awakening, through self-discipline, education and training of the mind. 2 . Extrinsic awakening through extrinsic agents, as diverse as Eastern mystical powers from a multiplicity of sources (such as TM, Yoga, mantras, occultism, spirit-possession et.) and the Western Scriptural power of a Singularity of Source [Adonai.(plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural, with Patriarchal, Prophetic and Apostolic imprimatur).
Augustinian Awakening is that of the “inner man” (journals.euser.org/files/articles/ejls_sep_dec_15/Halil.pdf; https://www.academia.edu/37733061/Saint_Augustines_Invention_of_the_Inner_Man_A_Short_Journey_to_The_History_of_the_Internality_of_the_West) -- ROMANS Chapter 7 & 2 CORINTHIANS Chapter 4 (https://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/THE-INNER-MAN-OF-ROMANS--AND-THE-INNER-MAN-OF--CORINTHIANS.HTML). The only candidate for science today to explain the invisible “inner man” will be Bio Dark-Matter with its bio Dark-Matter Chemistry (Spiritual Body or Physical Spirit?: Bio Dark-Matter Chemistry, https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Body-Physical-Spirit-Doppelganger/dp/1620061821). There will be “light-matter” and “dark-matter” twins cocreated from the moment of conception, the former is electric, entropic and transient, the latter is non-electric, non-entropic and enduring. The “inner man” then will be the dark-twin, energized by external source of power. At death an un-awakened ‘inner-man” will be at a negative energy state (- E= -mC^2, where m is the body mass which will be the minimum energy needed to raise it to any functional level).
Western Culture is a 3- rd- 4 -th Century Augustinian Trust (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine). Augustine was a civilized, scholarly Phoenician pagan with Greco-Roman roots, before his instant “transformation” that pulled the West out from Greco-Roman pagan philosophies and mystical notions to that of a knowable universe where the aseity belongs to a knowable Creator who self-reveals through revelations. That was in line to the Apostolic identification at Mars Hill discourse of the Athenian “unknown god” with the Resurrected Messiah (Acts chapter 17: 16-34; https://politicaltheology.com/the-politics-of-the-unknown-god-acts-1716-34), and opened up the channels of critical thinking necessary for explorations in all fields especially science and technology. Here the Extrinsic Source alone is the Dynamo of Regeneration. The Thomistic Scholarship, Reformation, Puritan & Wesleyan Revivals, the Two Great Awakenings etc. are all offshoots of Augustinian transformation , which all together produced the Western Civilization—markedly different from the rest of the pagan world of wisdom. It is altogether unlike the “Woke” sub-culture which is a constellation of juvenile beliefs and attitudes that were carefully introduced into the Augustinian West by WAMP-the-Ingrate.
Woke culture pretends to be compassionate, tolerant, altruistic and intellectual. In fact it is glorified lethargy, dangerous illusion of liberty, social justice and equality, that bestows social power to people who are sycophants of the WAMP. It coerces the rest with very oppressive laws based on fake or shallow and anachronistically misconstrued and passionate issues of sexism, environmentalism, Jihadism, feminism, racism, etc.), instead of facing the pain and tragedy in their own lives of addictions, life-styles and miseries. “Woke” legitimately merits to be a pejorative term, with its belligerent adherents willfully sticking to blatant lies of Marxism. QAnon started as online posts by a shadowy figure named “Q”, suddenly exploded into a cultish fringe movement that’s been dubbed as “extreme right” — usually a typical Marxist tactics — and is now deemed a potential domestic terror threat by some biased government agencies. The WAMP & the WOKE are willfully ignorant of these historical facts: 1 . Slavery was for the first time in human history abolished by law in the British Empire (the vastest, strongest, greatest noblest—not perfect—ever on planet Earth), thanks to the life-time effort of a Puritan MP, William Wilberforce protégé of the cleric John Newton, 2 . Emancipation Proclamation was follower about six decades later in Puritan America, 3 . Ocean routes to the East were necessitated by the Jihadist blockade of all land routes through conquests, 4 . Women’s Suffrage, Abolition of Child Labor, of Sati, of Foot-binding, propagation of education, hospitals, charities, foreign aids etc. were biproducts of Augustinian awakenings of the “inner man” (bio dark-matter bodies)—unheard of before that in the world of conquests and dictatorships of un-awakened consciousness!! 5 . Ecclesiastical authorities of Galileo times were only defending the well-established ( and age-old) Ptolemaic science of those days.
Note: WAMP = Western Acade-Media Pagan(ism)
--
.
Philip Benjamin
general...@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
Bruno Marchal
On 19 Apr 2021, at 19:51, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:[Bruno Marchal]“Good question. I can answer some of them in the frame of the computationalist hypothesis. Everything physical emerges from arithmetic as seen from inside in some mode of self-reference. What many people miss is that the notions of computer and computation are an arithmetical notion.Another “cultural” problem, since Aristotle, is the confusion between the (many) evidences that there is a physical reality, and the (absent) evidences that this physical reality is fundamental or primitive (= has to be assumed, or = cannot be derived from less).” Bruno[Philip Benjamin]Out of arithmetic only arithmetic can arise. Even that is questionable, because all arithmetic about any physicality is already predetermined—nothing new ARISES.
No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with life.
Dead physicality is governed by binding energies including chemical energies ruled by chemical laws of bonding encoded as duet and octet configurations of particles of opposite spins.
Life cannot arise from DEAD physicality.
Bohr was fundamentally wrong in introducing undefined subjectivity (whatever that means) of living matter into quantum physics.
Subjectivity is supposed to collapse a mathematical/statistical function, which in turn causes subjectivity. Nothing could be more circular than that. Moreover, if subjectivity affects a wavefunction either the former is also a mathematical function or the latter has also subjectivity. Otherwise it is a category error. A probability is a theoretical NUMBER which has no CREATIVE powers and no aseity!! .
Amplitudes do not change that status. It has now become one of the gods of Western Acade-Media Paganism (WAMP).There are only two cultures possible for the entire human race: 1 . Pagan culture of un-awakened/kundalini/reptilian consciousness; 2 . Non-pagan culture of awakened/quickened/regenerated consciousness.
All the rest are sub-cultures of these two.
Awakening in turn is historically of two types: 1 . Intrinsic-awakening, through self-discipline, education and training of the mind. 2 . Extrinsic awakening through extrinsic agents, as diverse as Eastern mystical powers from a multiplicity of sources (such as TM, Yoga, mantras, occultism, spirit-possession et.) and the Western Scriptural power of a Singularity of Source [Adonai.(plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural, with Patriarchal, Prophetic and Apostolic imprimatur).Augustinian Awakening is that of the “inner man” (journals.euser.org/files/articles/ejls_sep_dec_15/Halil.pdf; https://www.academia.edu/37733061/Saint_Augustines_Invention_of_the_Inner_Man_A_Short_Journey_to_The_History_of_the_Internality_of_the_West) -- ROMANS Chapter 7 & 2 CORINTHIANS Chapter 4 (https://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/THE-INNER-MAN-OF-ROMANS--AND-THE-INNER-MAN-OF--CORINTHIANS.HTML). The only candidate for science today to explain the invisible “inner man” will be Bio Dark-Matter with its bio Dark-Matter Chemistry (Spiritual Body or Physical Spirit?: Bio Dark-Matter Chemistry, https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Body-Physical-Spirit-Doppelganger/dp/1620061821). There will be “light-matter” and “dark-matter” twins cocreated from the moment of conception, the former is electric, entropic and transient, the latter is non-electric, non-entropic and enduring. The “inner man” then will be the dark-twin, energized by external source of power. At death an un-awakened ‘inner-man” will be at a negative energy state (- E= -mC^2, where m is the body mass which will be the minimum energy needed to raise it to any functional level).Western Culture is a 3- rd- 4 -th Century Augustinian Trust (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine). Augustine was a civilized, scholarly Phoenician pagan with Greco-Roman roots, before his instant “transformation” that pulled the West out from Greco-Roman pagan philosophies and mystical notions to that of a knowable universe where the aseity belongs to a knowable Creator who self-reveals through revelations. That was in line to the Apostolic identification at Mars Hill discourse of the Athenian “unknown god” with the Resurrected Messiah (Acts chapter 17: 16-34; https://politicaltheology.com/the-politics-of-the-unknown-god-acts-1716-34), and opened up the channels of critical thinking necessary for explorations in all fields especially science and technology. Here the Extrinsic Source alone is the Dynamo of Regeneration. The Thomistic Scholarship, Reformation, Puritan & Wesleyan Revivals, the Two Great Awakenings etc. are all offshoots of Augustinian transformation , which all together produced the Western Civilization—markedly different from the rest of the pagan world of wisdom. It is altogether unlike the “Woke” sub-culture which is a constellation of juvenile beliefs and attitudes that were carefully introduced into the Augustinian West by WAMP-the-Ingrate.Woke culture pretends to be compassionate, tolerant, altruistic and intellectual. In fact it is glorified lethargy, dangerous illusion of liberty, social justice and equality, that bestows social power to people who are sycophants of the WAMP. It coerces the rest with very oppressive laws based on fake or shallow and anachronistically misconstrued and passionate issues of sexism, environmentalism, Jihadism, feminism, racism, etc.), instead of facing the pain and tragedy in their own lives of addictions, life-styles and miseries. “Woke” legitimately merits to be a pejorative term, with its belligerent adherents willfully sticking to blatant lies of Marxism. QAnon started as online posts by a shadowy figure named “Q”, suddenly exploded into a cultish fringe movement that’s been dubbed as “extreme right” — usually a typical Marxist tactics — and is now deemed a potential domestic terror threat by some biased government agencies. The WAMP & the WOKE are willfully ignorant of these historical facts: 1 . Slavery was for the first time in human history abolished by law in the British Empire (the vastest, strongest, greatest noblest—not perfect—ever on planet Earth), thanks to the life-time effort of a Puritan MP, William Wilberforce protégé of the cleric John Newton, 2 . Emancipation Proclamation was follower about six decades later in Puritan America, 3 . Ocean routes to the East were necessitated by the Jihadist blockade of all land routes through conquests, 4 . Women’s Suffrage, Abolition of Child Labor, of Sati, of Foot-binding, propagation of education, hospitals, charities, foreign aids etc. were biproducts of Augustinian awakenings of the “inner man” (bio dark-matter bodies)—unheard of before that in the world of conquests and dictatorships of un-awakened consciousness!! 5 . Ecclesiastical authorities of Galileo times were only defending the well-established ( and age-old) Ptolemaic science of those days.Note: WAMP = Western Acade-Media Pagan(ism)Philip Benjamin
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Philip Benjamin
[Philip Benjamin]
“No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with life”.
[Bruno Marchal]
“This looks like vitalism to me, frankly”. Also, you seem to assume a physical reality out there. That requires to abandon Mechanism (and thus Darwin, etc.). I find this very speculative. There are no evidences for primary matter or physicalism.
[Philip Benjamin]
There is not a single man-created mechanism that has “life” or reproductive-- genetically informed-- capability. Life ia always and everywhere an ENDOWMENT not an EVLOTION mechanism. CpenPagan Interpretation is fundaMentally flawed. Mixed State, Superposition of States, Many Worlds etc. follow from that. The Schrödinger Equation postulates properties of wave functions or the probabilistic quantum states. Many Worlds essentially suggest that those probabilities of the quantum State are all real and do not meld to one state. They all become entangled with a version of reality generating the quantum decoherence into different universes that branch off from each other to create Many Worlds. That is the neo-vitalism. There is no chemistry without physics and no biology without chemistry. Many worlds will need Many World chemistry for Many Worlds biology. How can mixed states or superposition of states CREATE life from imaginary waves? The de Broglie hypothesis is the idea that matter (anything with mass) can also exhibit WAVEKIKE (not wavy) properties. It is a mathematical derivation of wavelength of an electron by relating Albert Einstein's mass-energy equivalency equation (E = mc2) with Planck's equation (E = hf), the wave speed equation (v = λf ) and momentum in a series of substitutions. Here mc^2 is replaced with mv^2, because massive particles do not travel at the speed of light. E=mv^2 =hf, Since momentum p = mv, λ= h/p (or m = h/v λ). The mass of the particle state is ALWAYS a reality here—perhaps even for corpuscular light at an indeterminate decimal place--, assuring every HONEST scientist that WAVELIKENES ≠ WAVINESS. Matter and light each has energy and momentum, but light has a wavelength in addition. Therefore de Broglie thought that matter may also have a wavelength. Remember, wavelength was thus artificially assigned to a quantum particle. Though de Broglie's hypothesis has experimental verification, it has unrealistic mathematical predictability of wavelengths for matter of any size. Thus REALITIES rigorously limit it's applicability. Ethical scientists will have to reject absurd results, instead of religiously validating them as the only true worldviews.
When scientists focus strongly on the high order ‘collective behavior’ of complex systems, they often refer to them as truly emergent systems with aggregate qualities more than the sum of the properties of the constituents. Emergence of new properties is regardless of whether the system involved is organic or inorganic. An extra-physical vitalis (vital force, entelechy, élan vital, etc.), as formulated in vitalism by the highly influential Swedish chemist Berzelius (1815). The laboratory synthesis of the organic compound urea from inorganic ammonium cyanate (in 1828 by Friedrich Wöhler.) invalidated only that part of vitalism which stipulated that organic compounds could be produced only by a mysterious vital force existing in living organisms, It did not solve the problem of transition (or transduction) of dead mechanism to live processes. This vital force turned out to be the ordinary “heat” in the case of urea, but “heat” will not create “life” in dead matter. How can a configuration of dead electrons, protons and neutrons give rise to life? By heat? No way, Jose!
According to Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy Bechtel (William Richardson, C. Robert) DOI10.4324/9780415249126-Q109-1 https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/vitalism/v-1: “Vitalism has fallen out of favor, though it had advocates even into the twentieth century. The most notable is Hans Driesch (1867–1941), an eminent embryologist, who explained the life of an organism in terms of the presence of an entelechy, a substantial entity controlling organic processes. Likewise, the French philosopher Henri Bergson (1874–1948) posited an élan vital to overcome the resistance of inert matter in the formation of living bodies.”
https://slife.org/vitalism/ “John Scott Haldane borrowed arguments from the vitalists to use against mechanism; however, he was not a vitalist. Haldane treated the organism as fundamental to biology: “we perceive the organism as a self-regulating entity”, “every effort to analyze it into components that can be reduced to a mechanical explanation violates this central experience”. The work of Haldane was an influence on organicism. Haldane also stated that a purely mechanist interpretation can not account for the characteristics of life.”
Best regards
Philip Benjamin
From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
On 19 Apr 2021, at 19:51, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bruno Marchal
On 27 Apr 2021, at 15:53, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
[Philip Benjamin]“No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with life”.[Bruno Marchal]“This looks like vitalism to me, frankly”. Also, you seem to assume a physical reality out there. That requires to abandon Mechanism (and thus Darwin, etc.). I find this very speculative. There are no evidences for primary matter or physicalism.[Philip Benjamin]There is not a single man-created mechanism that has “life” or reproductive-- genetically informed-- capability.
Life ia always and everywhere an ENDOWMENT not an EVLOTION mechanism. CpenPagan Interpretation is fundaMentally flawed.
Mixed State, Superposition of States, Many Worlds etc. follow from that.
The Schrödinger Equation postulates properties of wave functions or the probabilistic quantum states. Many Worlds essentially suggest that those probabilities of the quantum State are all real and do not meld to one state. They all become entangled with a version of reality generating the quantum decoherence into different universes that branch off from each other to create Many Worlds. That is the neo-vitalism.
There is no chemistry without physics and no biology without chemistry.
Many worlds will need Many World chemistry for Many Worlds biology. How can mixed states or superposition of states CREATE life from imaginary waves?
The de Broglie hypothesis is the idea that matter (anything with mass) can also exhibit WAVEKIKE (not wavy) properties. It is a mathematical derivation of wavelength of an electron by relating Albert Einstein's mass-energy equivalency equation (E = mc2) with Planck's equation (E = hf), the wave speed equation (v = λf ) and momentum in a series of substitutions. Here mc^2 is replaced with mv^2, because massive particles do not travel at the speed of light. E=mv^2 =hf, Since momentum p = mv, λ= h/p (or m = h/v λ). The mass of the particle state is ALWAYS a reality here—perhaps even for corpuscular light at an indeterminate decimal place--, assuring every HONEST scientist that WAVELIKENES ≠ WAVINESS. Matter and light each has energy and momentum, but light has a wavelength in addition. Therefore de Broglie thought that matter may also have a wavelength. Remember, wavelength was thus artificially assigned to a quantum particle. Though de Broglie's hypothesis has experimental verification, it has unrealistic mathematical predictability of wavelengths for matter of any size. Thus REALITIES rigorously limit it's applicability. Ethical scientists will have to reject absurd results, instead of religiously validating them as the only true worldviews.
When scientists focus strongly on the high order ‘collective behavior’ of complex systems, they often refer to them as truly emergent systems with aggregate qualities more than the sum of the properties of the constituents. Emergence of new properties is regardless of whether the system involved is organic or inorganic.
An extra-physical vitalis (vital force, entelechy, élan vital, etc.), as formulated in vitalism by the highly influential Swedish chemist Berzelius (1815). The laboratory synthesis of the organic compound urea from inorganic ammonium cyanate (in 1828 by Friedrich Wöhler.) invalidated only that part of vitalism which stipulated that organic compounds could be produced only by a mysterious vital force existing in living organisms, It did not solve the problem of transition (or transduction) of dead mechanism to live processes. This vital force turned out to be the ordinary “heat” in the case of urea, but “heat” will not create “life” in dead matter. How can a configuration of dead electrons, protons and neutrons give rise to life? By heat? No way, Jose!
According to Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy Bechtel (William Richardson, C. Robert) DOI10.4324/9780415249126-Q109-1 https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/vitalism/v-1: “Vitalism has fallen out of favor, though it had advocates even into the twentieth century. The most notable is Hans Driesch (1867–1941), an eminent embryologist, who explained the life of an organism in terms of the presence of an entelechy, a substantial entity controlling organic processes. Likewise, the French philosopher Henri Bergson (1874–1948) posited an élan vital to overcome the resistance of inert matter in the formation of living bodies.”https://slife.org/vitalism/ “John Scott Haldane borrowed arguments from the vitalists to use against mechanism; however, he was not a vitalist. Haldane treated the organism as fundamental to biology: “we perceive the organism as a self-regulating entity”, “every effort to analyze it into components that can be reduced to a mechanical explanation violates this central experience”. The work of Haldane was an influence on organicism. Haldane also stated that a purely mechanist interpretation can not account for the characteristics of life.”
Philip Benjamin
[Bruno Marchal] “I consider a cigarette as a living organism, with a complex reproductive cycle involving humans...”
[Philip Benjamin]
This is a Darwinian view of life.
https://www.britannica.com/science/life Dorion Sagan et al. General partner, Sciencewriters, Amherst, Massachusetts. Coauthor of Slanted Truths: Essays on Gaia, Symbiosis, and Evolution; What Is Life?; Cracking the Aging Code; and others.
“Life, living matter and, as such, matter that shows certain attributes that include responsiveness, growth, metabolism, energy transformation, and reproduction. Although a noun, as with other defined entities, the word life might be better cast as a verb to reflect its essential status as a process. Life comprises individuals, living beings, assignable to groups (taxa). Each individual is composed of one or more minimal living units, called cells, and is capable of transformation of carbon-based and other compounds (metabolism), growth, and participation in reproductive acts….”
“Conscious responsiveness, growth, metabolism, energy transformation, and reproduction” are not man-made machine properties. There is no machine that consciously falls down and worships its maker “man” as god!! Your “cigarette” no matter how smart you make it will never develop in a trillion years (by extrapolation) any such quality. It is subject to entropy. In fact, within a few years it disintegrates and “disappears” into oblivion. Dorion Sagan (writer, ecological philosopher, son of astronomer Carl Sagan and Biologist Lynn Margulis) is altogether avoiding the question of aseity here. But fearsome aseity shows up in-your-face. It is either dear matter or LIFE that can create both dead matter and other life forms that has aseity-- one of the two, not both. Entropy and DEATH cannot be self-existent—life first, death only after life. Death need be introduced—by whom or what?
Is there any life-form today without chemistry? How can chemistry be complete without the chemistry of 95% (or 80%? ) of the universe that is made of invisible matter? Dark atoms may be made of sub-units of negligible mass relative to electrons but of the same mass ratios as the sub-units of “light-matter” (ordinary visible matter).
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy
Philip Benjamin
From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 7:42 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
[Philip Benjamin]
“No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with life”.
[Bruno Marchal]
“This looks like vitalism to me, frankly”. Also, you seem to assume a physical reality out there. That requires to abandon Mechanism (and thus Darwin, etc.). I find this very speculative. There are no evidences for primary matter or physicalism.
[Philip Benjamin]
There is not a single man-created mechanism that has “life” or reproductive-- genetically informed-- capability.
I don’t know that. I am not sure by what you mean by “life”.
Personally, I consider that the artificial/natural distinction is … artificial. I consider a cigarette as a living organism, with a complex reproductive cycle involving humans...
Life ia always and everywhere an ENDOWMENT not an EVLOTION mechanism. CpenPagan Interpretation is fundaMentally flawed.
If you mean that Copenhague formulation of QM (often found in the textbook) is flawed, we agree.
But with the methodology imposed by the Mechanist hypothesis, we cannot invoke the physical laws, unless the goal is to measure the degree of truth in Mechanism. The physical laws are “just” a deep invariant of the universal mind (the mind common to all universal machine or number, or combinator (which I am currently explains on Facebook, in case you missed my little course here some years ago).
.
Philip Benjamin
general...@googlegroups.com Subject: FW: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
Bruno Marchal
On 6 May 2021, at 17:19, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:[Bruno Marchal] “I consider a cigarette as a living organism, with a complex reproductive cycle involving humans...”
[Philip Benjamin]
This is a Darwinian view of life.
https://www.britannica.com/science/life Dorion Sagan et al. General partner, Sciencewriters, Amherst, Massachusetts. Coauthor of Slanted Truths: Essays on Gaia, Symbiosis, and Evolution; What Is Life?; Cracking the Aging Code; and others.
“Life, living matter and, as such, matter that shows certain attributes that include responsiveness, growth, metabolism, energy transformation, and reproduction. Although a noun, as with other defined entities, the word life might be better cast as a verb to reflect its essential status as a process. Life comprises individuals, living beings, assignable to groups (taxa). Each individual is composed of one or more minimal living units, called cells, and is capable of transformation of carbon-based and other compounds (metabolism), growth, and participation in reproductive acts….”
“Conscious responsiveness, growth, metabolism, energy transformation, and reproduction” are not man-made machine properties.
There is no machine that consciously falls down and worships its maker “man” as god!!
Your “cigarette” no matter how smart you make it will never develop in a trillion years (by extrapolation) any such quality. It is subject to entropy.
In fact, within a few years it disintegrates and “disappears” into oblivion. Dorion Sagan (writer, ecological philosopher, son of astronomer Carl Sagan and Biologist Lynn Margulis) is altogether avoiding the question of aseity here. But fearsome aseity shows up in-your-face. It is either dear matter or LIFE that can create both dead matter and other life forms that has aseity-- one of the two, not both. Entropy and DEATH cannot be self-existent—life first, death only after life. Death need be introduced—by whom or what?
Is there any life-form today without chemistry? How can chemistry be complete without the chemistry of 95% (or 80%? ) of the universe that is made of invisible matter? Dark atoms may be made of sub-units of negligible mass relative to electrons but of the same mass ratios as the sub-units of “light-matter” (ordinary visible matter).
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy
Philip Benjamin
From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 7:42 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
On 27 Apr 2021, at 15:53, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
[Philip Benjamin]
“No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with life”.
[Bruno Marchal]
“This looks like vitalism to me, frankly”. Also, you seem to assume a physical reality out there. That requires to abandon Mechanism (and thus Darwin, etc.). I find this very speculative. There are no evidences for primary matter or physicalism.
[Philip Benjamin]
There is not a single man-created mechanism that has “life” or reproductive-- genetically informed-- capability.
I don’t know that. I am not sure by what you mean by “life”.
Personally, I consider that the artificial/natural distinction is … artificial. I consider a cigarette as a living organism, with a complex reproductive cycle involving humans...
Life ia always and everywhere an ENDOWMENT not an EVLOTION mechanism. CpenPagan Interpretation is fundaMentally flawed.
If you mean that Copenhague formulation of QM (often found in the textbook) is flawed, we agree.
But with the methodology imposed by the Mechanist hypothesis, we cannot invoke the physical laws, unless the goal is to measure the degree of truth in Mechanism. The physical laws are “just” a deep invariant of the universal mind (the mind common to all universal machine or number, or combinator (which I am currently explains on Facebook, in case you missed my little course here some years ago).
.
--
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