New Zealand votes to legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients

[John Clark]

And for the last three weeks the 18.7 acres around the White House has reported more COVID-19 cases than the entire country of New Zealand, I guess New Zealanders are just more civilized and competent than Americans.  

New Zealand votes to legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients

John K Clark

[Lawrence Crowell]

The only way I could support something like this in USA is if there is a single payer healthcare system. As things stand now I can well imagine there will be insurance weasels pressuring family members to "terminate" a patient the company finds too expensive to pay for.

LC

[John Clark]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 7:31 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The only way I could support something like this in USA is if there is a single payer healthcare system. 

A single payer healthcare system is probably a good idea, it's worked well in other countries, but it has little to do with euthanasia.

 

 > I can well imagine there will be insurance weasels pressuring family members to "terminate" a patient the company finds too expensive to pay for.

 

I think it's illogical to worry about hypothetical problems that leagal euthanasia might cause while at the same time ignoring the very real non-hypothetical horror that outlawing euthanasia has caused; in the USA terminal cancer patients are limited on how much pain medication they can get because for some bizarre reason doctors are worried about them becoming addicted. And sure, if it was legal patients might sometimes make the wrong decision, but at least it would be their decision and not the decision of the government, after all it's their life not the government's. Using force to make somebody live when they want to die is as immoral as using force to make somebody die when they want to live.

John K Clark

[Lawrence Crowell]

It is a hypothetical that easily could be made real. Never underestimate the smarts of any weasel to grab as much cash as possible.

LC 

[John Clark]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:05 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It is a hypothetical that easily could be made real. 

The already real does not need to be made real.  And for some paralized people in agony the pressure put upon them to stay alive by the government means that the only way they have to end their lives is to bite off their tongue and drown in their own blood. People always put pressure on other people but I think that real pressure outranks your hypothetical pressure. 

 John K Clark

[Brent Meeker]

You can imagine it, but it hasn't happened in the states where euthanasia is already legal.

Brent

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[spudb...@aol.com]

Well they must be doing right--but I am not sure what? Everywhere else is resurge city. Throw in Republic of Korea and Taiwan. Beyond this, I stumbled across and article regarding infection from hospital floors being the big spreader of infection and death. China was the spreader, perhaps by accident. (lab release). 

https://eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-10/sfhe-hfa102820.php

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/us/coronavirus-hospitals-capacity.html

I am suspecting that constantly infra-reding the floors constantly would cut death down to much lower by killing the avenue of patient infections. This also would apply to Care homes. 

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 30 Oct 2020, at 11:42, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:

And for the last three weeks the 18.7 acres around the White House has reported more COVID-19 cases than the entire country of New Zealand, I guess New Zealanders are just more civilized and competent than Americans.  

New Zealand votes to legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients

I have been an advocate of euthanasia for a long time, until the law pass and in my country (Belgium), euthanasia has been fully legalised. But then eight young person have been euthanazied for reason of depression, without at least try salvia divinorum or tabernanthe iboga, which are known to cure severe depression (for published clinical trials). 

So, my current position is that euthanasia + prohibition = murder.

The amazing thing is that New Zealand has made a referendum on both both euthanasia, and the legalisation of cannabis, and they have vote in favour of euthanasia, but against the legalisation of cannabis. Euthanasia for lack of medication makes no sense with prohibition laws (which makes no sense at all per se, except for criminals easy money).

Better to defend the right of suicide, without invoking any medical condition, in that case…

Bruno

[spudb...@aol.com]

NZ also has a "somewhat" smaller population, and I have yet to see any proposals that seem to indicate what makes the difference with infections. between nations? My suspicion is yeah, rallies and meetups without mouth coverings, but in the US surely, our riots and "protests," all being potential mass spreading events, to say the least. Now this doesn't explain France, nor, the UK now gone back into lockdown with expanding rates of the Wuhan. No great rioting there, but here it is a consistent thing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54716993

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54763956

The US, because of who is president, is the only focus on this plague, as if the rest of the world is doing fine. Not true. I shall see if this tactic works with the electorate here. 

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CD84CA82-9DA6-47A3-9D8A-AA9FBC0D3970%40ulb.ac.be

.

[John Clark]

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 9:44 AM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>NZ also has a "somewhat" smaller population,

On the contrary, the country of New Zealand has a somewhat larger population than the White House and the 18.7 acres that surround it, but even with its smaller population it has more COVID-19 cases. The difference is the White House is run by a incompetent imbecile, but New Zealand is not. Right now the White House is probably the most intense COVID-19 hotspot in the world.

> I have yet to see any proposals that seem to indicate what makes the difference with infections.

Well for one thing the Prime Minister of New Zealand is not running around her country holding virus super spreader events.  

Study links Trump rallies to more than 700 Covid deaths

John K Clark

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, Nov 01, 2020 at 09:50:16AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> > On 30 Oct 2020, at 11:42, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > And for the last three weeks the 18.7 acres around the White House has reported more COVID-19 cases than the entire country of New Zealand, I guess New Zealanders are just more civilized and competent than Americans.
> >

> > New Zealand votes to legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients <https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/30/asia/new-zealand-euthanasia-intl-hnk/index.html>

>
>
> I have been an advocate of euthanasia for a long time, until the law
> pass and in my country (Belgium), euthanasia has been fully
> legalised. But then eight young person have been euthanazied for
> reason of depression, without at least try salvia divinorum or
> tabernanthe iboga, which are known to cure severe depression (for
> published clinical trials).

[...]

As you must be aware of, there is this school claiming that we are
just like any other animals. I had, for years, seen this claim as
somewhat dubious and made up, until it occurred to me that only we, of
all known animals, invented calendars, writing, poetry and taxes. So
to me the claim seems even more made up than before.

But, majority votes, more or less explicitly, and chooses to be
treated as animals. Humanity down the drain. Maybe it should be my
problem, but since this is what majority wants, so be it. Too bad
minority gets the same treatment despite voting against it (or not
voting at all).

Anyway, you know what they do to animals who cannot breed small
healthy animals anymore. Such animals are useless. The owner needs to
protect the herd.

I guess severe depression (or genetic traits leading to it) is
hereditary.

As of helping a dying patient, I guess a compassionate doctor is all
that such patient needs.

Compassion is a scarce resource in our world.

But the future, oh man, this is going to be bright. There will be only
a handful of officially acknowledged genomes allowed. Mutants will be
treated humanly with injection. There will be no Stalins and no
Bachs. Well, all right, there will be no Bachs. Finally, a great
harmony.

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomas...@bigfoot.com **

[spudb...@aol.com]

A study from politicized Stanford economists doesn't work for me. If your study cited epidemiologists, I'd pay it credence. Back in March the estimates, including from Faucci (Virologist) was that if we did nothing, up to 2.2  million dead, by now, remember? If we imposed a lockdown, it would be cut to about 200k. So by "flattening the curve" the death toll was cut.  This was the UK estimate. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-uk-report-projects-2-million-deaths-without-action-2020-3

Also, if France and the UK are going back under lockdowns, what ate they doing wrong? Or, are these countries not isolated like NZ, thus, Auckland becomes an anomaly?? France and Britain and now Austria? This is probably not the presidents fault, even if you blame him or witches for or whomever?

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-11-austria-week-partial-lockdown-tuesday.html

Whoever becomes leader in January, or we drift on into civil conflict, we need a way out of the Wuhan plague. Not that my view matters a particle, but after the long wait for a vaccine, I'd be looking at covid antagonists that cure the infected patients, in situ, the human body. Will that work? No idea. 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com

Cc: mar...@ulb.ac.be <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Sent: Sun, Nov 1, 2020 11:03 am
Subject: Re: New Zealand votes to legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients

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.

[John Clark]

On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 2:21 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:

> A study from politicized Stanford economists doesn't work for me.

Well of course it doesn't convince you, no finite amount of scientific evidence could convince you to change your world view, maybe an infinite amount could but I rather doubt it. For some people change is the most painful thing imaginable so denying reality is far more comfortable than denying a strongly held view. But that can only get you so far because reality cannot be fooled and it always gets its way in the end. That's why Trump is in such trouble right now, magical thinking makes for very entertaining Harry Potter novels but it doesn't work worth a damn in our world.  

John K Clark

 

[spudb...@aol.com]

Very Aristotelian! The golden mean made flesh. Reminds me of the ancient Yes tune, You and I. You guys do know that in the same decision about euthanasia, marijuana legalization was turned down.

Sad preacher nailed upon the coloured door of time
Insane teacher be there reminded of the rhyme
There'll be no mutant enemy we shall certify
Political ends as sad remains will die
Reach out as forward tastes begin to enter you
Oooh, ooh

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/yes/andyouandi.html

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[spudb...@aol.com]

Look, if a republican economist provided accusations (scientific of course) that democratic rule seems to have lowered the average IQ in public schools, would you axiomatically, say, yes, or course, it cannot be challenged for these are infallible thinkers! In human history, we have the labor of biologists who supported Eugenics, and we have Lysenko, in the Soviet Union. Also, there is this. Allow us mere mortals to be able to reason for ourselves. The economists may be correct, or they may be wrong, or deliberately lying-which is my thought after drilling down a bit, Meanwhile...

 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-2-pro-nazi-nobelists-attacked-einstein-s-jewish-science-excerpt1/

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: spudb...@aol.com
Cc: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com>; mar...@ulb.ac.be <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
Sent: Sun, Nov 1, 2020 2:41 pm
Subject: Re: New Zealand votes to legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, Nov 01, 2020 at 07:50:24PM +0000, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
> Very Aristotelian!
[...]

"Plato is my friend but my bigger friend is truth" - why, he sounds
like very amiable guy. Maybe for men whose name is Plato, not so
amiable, but other than those, I am sure he was universally loved by
everybody else.

[Bruno Marchal]

I am not sure I understand. Defending euthanasia is not defending murder, even if I point that euthanasia for medical reason makes no sense, and is close to murder when in presence of prohibition laws. Euthanasia is like mechanism: only you can say “yes”, or “no” to the doctor. Nobody should be allowed to think at your place about this.

Of course you raise the difficult question of the risk of future “eugenism”. Well, let us try not voting for nazis and alike...

Bruno

>
> --
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
> ** **
> ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomas...@bigfoot.com **
>

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[Tomasz Rola]

On Sat, Nov 07, 2020 at 12:08:31PM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> > On 1 Nov 2020, at 19:32, Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:
> >

[...]

> > harmony.
>
> I am not sure I understand. Defending euthanasia is not defending
> murder,

I think it depends on who is defending. Seems to me, you are assuming
that only the good folks will defend it. I assume, that every noble
idea will find a bunch of greedy guys who distort and monetize
it. This goes even faster if the idea is not noble.

> even if I point that euthanasia for medical reason makes no
> sense, and is close to murder when in presence of prohibition
> laws. Euthanasia is like mechanism: only you can say “yes”, or “no”
> to the doctor. Nobody should be allowed to think at your place about
> this.

So, you mean the depressive girl asked to be helped with her death?
And they helped her. She should have asked them to give her a
flamethrower.

> Of course you raise the difficult question of the risk of future
> “eugenism”. Well, let us try not voting for nazis and alike...
>
> Bruno

For me eugenics is a natural next step after adopting euthanasia.

Of course, it will be just in words. If there was a real method to
improve the offspring, then I assure you it would heve been a well
guarded secret and only the richest club members would have been
allowed in. Other people are just potential adversaries of theirs. It
would have been the most stupid thing if they improved children of
their adversaries, reducing the gap. Instead, their own children would
get all the necessary improvements, so they can reign supreme for the
next few centuries. Maybe millenia.

Hoi polloi will be improved, too. Most probably, they will be bred
into becoming universal donors, or something. Or maybe they will be
born as a bunch of polite, easy going idiots - good for team working.

[John Clark]

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 12:45 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:

> So, you mean the depressive girl asked to be helped with her death?

Yes. It's up to you to decide for yourself whether you want to help her or not, but the decision of the girl to end her life is not yours to make. She may or may not be making the correct choice but it's her choice because it's her life not yours that we're talking about.

> For me eugenics is a natural next step after adopting euthanasia.

It's odd how you are super concerned about hypothetical negative consequences of euthanasia that may or may not actually occur depending on the accuracy of your hypothesis, but at the same time completely ignore the non-hypothetical very real horrors that are actually occurring by not allowing the use of euthanasia. But of course that is always an occupational hazard whenever one tries to use the "slippery slope" argument to justify one's position. The now discredited "gateway drug" hypothesis is the reason some people have spent decades in prison because they were caught with one marijuana cigarette in their possession, one puff of marijuana was supposed to make you a heroin junkie for life.

> If there was a real method to improve the offspring, then I assure you it would heve been a well guarded secret and only the richest club members would have been allowed in.

Wow, you've got a lot of them. This is a different completely unverified hypothesis; do you also recommend that we simply abandon all future medical research and so avoid this hypothetical problem and ignore the very sick people that exist right now? 

John K Clark

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, Nov 08, 2020 at 01:37:44PM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 12:45 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:
>

> *> So, you mean the depressive girl asked to be helped with her death?*

>
>
> Yes. It's up to you to decide for yourself whether you want to help her or
> not, but the decision of the girl to end her life is not yours to make. She
> may or may not be making the correct choice but it's her choice because
> it's her life not yours that we're talking about.

This is so cool. So, she made a decision, they made a decision, there
was a possible cure (I am not sure about cure, it was Bruno who wrote
about it) but hey man, I have no problem. The way the events went did
not change my opinion about the world.

> *> For me eugenics is a natural next step after adopting euthanasia.*

>
>
> It's odd how you are super concerned about hypothetical negative
> consequences of euthanasia that may or may not actually occur depending on
> the accuracy of your hypothesis, but at the same time completely ignore the
> non-hypothetical very real horrors that are actually occurring by not

[...]
>
> *> If there was a real method to improve the offspring, then I assure you

> > it would heve been a well guarded secret and only the richest club members

> > would have been allowed in.*

>
>
> Wow, you've got a lot of them. This is a different completely unverified
> hypothesis; do you also recommend that we simply abandon all future medical
> research and so avoid this hypothetical problem and ignore the very sick
> people that exist right now?

Using and developing medicine to decrease suffering is one thing. I am
not doing too much to support it but I actually do some-very-small-thing.

The other thing is using same technologies, laws and customs in order
to retain and increase somebody's power. I see no need to support
this, they are doing all right.