Penrose - Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?

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Alan Grayson

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Oct 15, 2020, 12:20:27 AM10/15/20
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Lawrence Crowell

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Oct 15, 2020, 10:22:28 AM10/15/20
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This is something we will probably never know for sure.

LC

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com wrote:

Philip Thrift

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Oct 16, 2020, 2:58:43 AM10/16/20
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" Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?" is the same as " Is Programming Invented or Discovered?"



@philipthrift

Alan Grayson

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Oct 16, 2020, 6:21:59 PM10/16/20
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On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 12:58:43 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:


" Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?" is the same as " Is Programming Invented or Discovered?"



@philipthrift

What about the incandescent bulb; invented or discovered. Not a rhetorical question. AG

Bruno Marchal

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Oct 18, 2020, 5:15:32 AM10/18/20
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On 15 Oct 2020, at 06:20, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:



Not much time to look at the video, but from his book, despite its notorious misunderstanding of Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, Penrose seems quite reasonable on mathematical realism. I met Penrose in Croatia some years ago, but he did not progress much on logic.

In science, we can never know if a theory is true or not, and the same is true for any domain studied with the scientific method, including metaphysics/theology, which dig on that very (ontological) question.

Now, in the Mechanist theory of mind, we can explain how and why the appearance of a physical universe is obtained, without postulating the existence of a physical universe. That physical universe is entirely determined, and so it can be compared to the observation, and the fact is that, from a Mechanist point of view, there are simply no evidence that a physical universe exists ontologically (no one doubt that it exists phenomenologically).

So, we don’t know the truth, but we can count the evidence, and there are far more evidence for 1+1 = 2 than for an ontological status for any physical objects. Adding a physical universe in the ontology reintroduce the mind-body problem, and can make sense only in a highly non computational theory, for which there is no evidence.

Physics is just not the fundamental science, once we accept Descartes/Darwin. We cannot have both Mechanism and Materialism, that leads to a contradiction. And the evidence, be it Darwin or quantum mechanics, sides strongly in favour for Mechanism, and thus against Materialism or naturalism.

Materialism will be abandoned in metaphysics/theology like vitalism has been abandoned in biology, that is, as a superstition which please the mind, but only add difficulties and prevent the pursue of the questioning and research. It is “fake religion”.

Bruno



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Bruno Marchal

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Oct 18, 2020, 5:18:32 AM10/18/20
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On 17 Oct 2020, at 00:21, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 12:58:43 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:


" Is Mathematics Invented or Discovered?" is the same as " Is Programming Invented or Discovered?"



@philipthrift

What about the incandescent bulb; invented or discovered. Not a rhetorical question. AG

Both can be said. The principle of its functioning can be said to be discovered, like electricity itself, but the concerte bulbs are fabricated and as such they are invented.

Now, the sad truth is that the incandescent bulb has mainly be abandoned, alas…

Bruno



 

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 9:22:28 AM UTC-5 Lawrence Crowell wrote:
This is something we will probably never know for sure.

LC

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 11:20:27 PM UTC-5 agrays...@gmail.com wrote:

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