RE: Trump Supporters?

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Philip Benjamin

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Jun 1, 2019, 10:59:21 AM6/1/19
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[Philip Benjamin] 

Trump supporters? That is a phrase inappositely coined by America haters—i.e. the Fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Progressive, Liberal, Humanist PAGANS or WAMP-the-Ingrate, who hate the very foundations and founders of this Republic. Over 62 million adults, bona fide American citizens, surely KNEW that this was the last chance for America to be America!! It was a question of now or never. The truth will be out if the present Dept. of Justice has the guts to go ahead with an impartial investigation into the politico-deep state- media usurpation of the American government at all levels from the City/County and State to the Non-sovereign Federation of the Sovereign States of this Constitutional Republic of Lex Rex and not Rex Lex (http://constitution.org/sr/lexrex.htm). See Lex Rex of Samuel Rutherford (Presbyterian Minister). Also its high recommendation by the “Prince of Preacher” Spurgeon (Baptist Minister). American Constitution is an extension of various Church Constitutions. The Colonies already had all institutions of Freedom in place after the historical and historic First Great Awakening. No other people EVER in the annals of history did or could have ever come up with any such ideas. The Magna Carta (of “We the Nobles”), the Mayflower Compact and the Puritan Mission Statement to American Indians come close. Ignorance coupled with willful disrespect for one’s heritage as facilitated on the WAMP-erial campuses is a sure path to victory for Socialist-Marxist-Progressive PAGANISM of the types of Nordic pagan Hitler, Slavic pagan Stalin, Caucasian pagan Mussolini etc., or of the type of Celtic pagan French anarchists. https://www.wnd.com/2019/02/americas-dangerous-historical-ignorance/           

Compare it wit https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ignorance-of-history-is-no-joke/

Philip Benjamin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2019 8:11 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Allah: the One and Only Deity

 

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 3:16 AM Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

 

>> From the Catholic Encyclopedia, volume 7 page 792:
"The son of God is omniscient and omnipotent knowing history in advance and being able to control its course”.

 

> The Pope Jean-Paul 2 made explicit that all statement of that kind are parabola and should never been taken literally.

 

That's the exact same excuse Trump suporters use when they to try to explain away his many many lies.

 

> Of course, that is debated by some catholic, bu I have still never met a christian who believe in the anything as naive.

 

You sure have not met many Christians!  I have never met a Christian who didn't believe something exactly that naive. I concede there are a few that have abandoned the idea of Christianity but not the ASCII sequence C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n-i-t-y, although I have not personally met them.

 

> You might read the book by Jean Trouillard or Paul Valadier. You might change your mind on this, but perhaps you don’t want to change your mind.

 

I don't want to read their books because I see little point in reading a book written by someone who knows even less about how the world really works than I do. Life is too short to read every book ever written so one must use judgement and be selective.

 

 John K Clark

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John Clark

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Jun 1, 2019, 12:14:16 PM6/1/19
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On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 10:59 AM Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Trump supporters?


Yes, aka morons. That's why the 5 states with the least educated population all went for Trump and the 10 states with the highest education all went for Clinton.
 
>Over 62 million adults, bona fide American citizens, surely KNEW that this was the last chance for America to be America!!

And nearly 66 million adults, bona fide American citizens voted for Hillary Clinton because they surely KNEW that Trump was a facets; but under our system the American people don't get to decide who will be president, only the 538 members of the Electoral College get to decide that. And a Wyoming voter (who was probably a Trump supporter) has 66.7 times as much influence over who go to the Electoral Collage as a California voter (who was probably a Clinton supporter)  
 
> That is a phrase inappositely coined by America haters—i.e. the Fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Progressive, Liberal, Humanist PAGANS or WAMP-the-Ingrate, who hate the very foundations and founders of this Republic. [...] It was a question of now or never. The truth will be out if the present Dept. of Justice has the guts to go ahead with an impartial investigation into the politico-deep state- media usurpation of the American government at all levels from the City/County and State to the Non-sovereign Federation of the Sovereign States of this Constitutional Republic of Lex Rex and not Rex Lex (http://constitution.org/sr/lexrex.htm). See Lex Rex of Samuel Rutherford (Presbyterian Minister). Also its high recommendation by the “Prince of Preacher” Spurgeon (Baptist Minister). American Constitution is an extension of various Church Constitutions. The Colonies already had all institutions of Freedom in place after the historical and historic First Great Awakening. No other people EVER in the annals of history did or could have ever come up with any such ideas. The Magna Carta (of “We the Nobles”), the Mayflower Compact and the Puritan Mission Statement to American Indians come close. Ignorance coupled with willful disrespect for one’s heritage as facilitated on the WAMP-erial campuses is a sure path to victory for Socialist-Marxist-Progressive PAGANISM of the types of Nordic pagan Hitler, Slavic pagan Stalin, Caucasian pagan Mussolini etc., or of the type of Celtic pagan French anarchists

No no I'm not laughing at you, I don't think you sound crazy at all. Not at all. Just put down the gun and let's talk about this calmly.

 John K Clark

Telmo Menezes

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Jun 1, 2019, 1:21:49 PM6/1/19
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On Sat, Jun 1, 2019, at 16:59, Philip Benjamin wrote:

[Philip Benjamin] 

Trump supporters? That is a phrase inappositely coined by America haters—i.e. the Fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Progressive, Liberal, Humanist PAGANS



I went to Wikipedia to look for a definition of "liberal":

"Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed, and equality before the law.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion."

According to this definition, I am a liberal. If you agree with this definition, what is the part of liberalism you oppose? If you disagree with the definition, then what am I?

Telmo.

John Clark

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Jun 1, 2019, 1:33:06 PM6/1/19
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I don't understand why Philip Benjamin dislikes the term "Trump suporter" so much, I don't see why it's fundamentally different from other types of suporters, like Republican suporters or athletic suporters.

 John K Clark


Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 1, 2019, 2:43:56 PM6/1/19
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We are weavers in the web that we wove. We are victims of this technological marvel called the media, which now includes the internet. Joseph Goebbels, propaganda minister for the third Reich, said that a lie repeated often enough assumes a life as a "sort of truth." The media has becomes a crap-fest of nonsense that pumps out half-truths and sometimes outright lies. With the massive dollars behind this industry liberality based on evidence, facts, and logic is simply drowned out in the huge decibel volume against it. Donald t'Rump knows this as much as Goebbels did, and t'Rump is a pure grifter and hustler.

LC

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Philip Thrift

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Jun 1, 2019, 3:01:16 PM6/1/19
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When America is presented a choice:

A. con-artist, blowhard fascist
B. cultured, intellectual liberal

A always has a chance of winning.

@philipthrift

Philip Benjamin

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Jun 1, 2019, 3:14:50 PM6/1/19
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[Philip Benjamin]

     Telmo Menezes wrote: “I went to Wikipedia to look for a definition of "liberal":…I am a liberal… what do you oppose…?”  End of quote.

                  Wikipedia may be sometimes a source for past (not current) references.  Classical Liberalism has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Modern Liberalism. For a long time there was no difference between Liberals and Conservatives in America, except for their constituencies. Businessmen, including family farm owners and Professionals were Conservatives. Labor, Trade Unions farm workers,  and Southern plantation owners,  were Liberals.

The best government was the least government for most of Americans who also generally believed that human nature is essentially fallen and corrupt (Adamic insubordination and the imputed/encoded Sentence of Death) requiring certain minimum necessary governmental interventions.

            That is all 180 degrees changed today (References below). Modern Liberals are Marxist, Socialist, Fascist, Humanist Progressive PAGANS. They have fully infiltrated the academia, especially so after the collapse of the Marxist Soviet Empire, also most of the businesses and even some farms. The Progressives have complete sway over the Trade Unions (they actually own them), the Media,  most publishing industries including many once-Christian publishers, and the Deep State. They ardently believe that human nature is essentially good and greater the government, greater is the good. Tolerance necessarily means exclusion of all real or imagined opposition. Silencing or forcefully excluding the opponents by all means legal and illegal is their indispensable stratagem, because it is self-evident for them that “the end justifies the means”. Insults and intimidations are their usual weapons and they make no bones about it (typical examples are the writings and pronouncements of evolutionist biologist Richard Dawkins).  Everything they believe is the TRUTH and they are ALWAYS RIGHT.  Group-think is all they know. The only critical-thinking allowed is “labelling” exhibited by vituperations and mockings. Anti-Christian and anti-Bible fanaticism is their acceptable short-cuts to “brilliance”.

          Goodbye to Liberalism  

Evidentialist

Philip Benjamin        

https://www.reference.com/government-politics/difference-between-classical-modern-liberalism-c9b2cef60fcef0ef https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-modern-and-classical-liberalism-without-using-too-much-philosophical-jargon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 John K Clark .

Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 1, 2019, 6:49:58 PM6/1/19
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Why is this list attracting nut-wads? Here we evidently have a political crackpot. Politics is largely for stupid people. Philip Benjamin is clearly parroting conspiracy narratives, which are the products of the right wing media, though the left does a bit of it, where liberalism is a big communistic conspiracy to destroy freedom and to contaminate our precious bodily fluids.

Solzhenitsyn wrote in One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, how the old guard Bolsheviks would parrot the words of Marx and Lenin, as if they were teletype machines, or in more modern language a computer running a sound file. People who utter phrases from the Bible with known chapter and verse are similar. There is a tendency for people to become meme-machines who do little more than parrot off various ideological or belief scripts.

My opinion of political people, whether on the left or right is they fall into this trap of thinking. It is not really thinking, it is thinking you are thinking. Who really gives a damned over nuances over classical vs more modern liberalism? In the end both, classic in the day it was formed, favors a liberality of mind, the open exchange of thought and ideals and the removal of oppression. Modern liberalsim is more complicated with economic issues, where let us face it in the time from Locke and Thomas Paine we have figured out a few things. One of them is that economics or capitalism is not able to maintain a stable currency, maintain employment at full levels and to provide the free uninhibited flow of capital. There are a number of these trilemmas in economics, and more modern liberalism is about regulating capitalism because it has these inherent instabilities. You may agree or disagree with these policies, but these are not conspiracies to enslave us. These conspiracy narratives are forged by right winged bloviators at Faux Gnus and Clear-Channel radio and so forth. As a rule, people who parrot these sort of things, such as those fallen Bolshiviks in the gulags Solzhenitsyn pointed out, are not really that inherently intelligent. As Donald t'Rump said, "I am like and intelligent person," which really means he wants to look smart, but he is really dumb as donkey crap.

LC

spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 2, 2019, 12:52:31 PM6/2/19
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?? as opposed to those wonderful attorneys that the democratic party produces for it's leaders, who never take donations from billionaires, ever, and have the genuine interests of the US middle class at heart? You betcha!  Would you like me to supply the link to Open Secrets, the non-partisan site that goes right to the money trail? Say no more!  opensecrets.org    


-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jun 1, 2019 2:43 pm
Subject: Re: Trump Supporters?

We are weavers in the web that we wove. We are victims of this technological marvel called the media, which now includes the internet. Joseph Goebbels, propaganda minister for the third Reich, said that a lie repeated often enough assumes a life as a "sort of truth." The media has becomes a crap-fest of nonsense that pumps out half-truths and sometimes outright lies. With the massive dollars behind this industry liberality based on evidence, facts, and logic is simply drowned out in the huge decibel volume against it. Donald t'Rump knows this as much as Goebbels did, and t'Rump is a pure grifter and hustler.

LC

On Saturday, June 1, 2019 at 9:59:21 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:
[Philip Benjamin] 
Trump supporters? That is a phrase inappositely coined by America haters—i.e. the Fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Progressive, Liberal, Humanist PAGANS or WAMP-the-Ingrate, who hate the very foundations and founders of this Republic. Over 62 million adults, bona fide American citizens, surely KNEW that this was the last chance for America to be America!! It was a question of now or never. The truth will be out if the present Dept. of Justice has the guts to go ahead with an impartial investigation into the politico-deep state- media usurpation of the American government at all levels from the City/County and State to the Non-sovereign Federation of the Sovereign States of this Constitutional Republic of Lex Rex and not Rex Lex (http://constitution.org/sr/ lexrex.htm). See Lex Rex of Samuel Rutherford (Presbyterian Minister). Also its high recommendation by the “Prince of Preacher” Spurgeon (Baptist Minister). American Constitution is an extension of various Church Constitutions. The Colonies already had all institutions of Freedom in place after the historical and historic First Great Awakening. No other people EVER in the annals of history did or could have ever come up with any such ideas. The Magna Carta (of “We the Nobles”), the Mayflower Compact and the Puritan Mission Statement to American Indians come close. Ignorance coupled with willful disrespect for one’s heritage as facilitated on the WAMP-erial campuses is a sure path to victory for Socialist-Marxist-Progressive PAGANISM of the types of Nordic pagan Hitler, Slavic pagan Stalin, Caucasian pagan Mussolini etc., or of the type of Celtic pagan French anarchists. https://www.wnd.com/2019/02/ americas-dangerous-historical- ignorance/           
Philip Benjamin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2019 8:11 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups. com
Subject: Re: Allah: the One and Only Deity
On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 3:16 AM Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
 
>> From the Catholic Encyclopedia, volume 7 page 792:
"The son of God is omniscient and omnipotent  knowing history in advance and being able to control its course”.
 
> The Pope Jean-Paul 2 made explicit that all statement of that kind are parabola and should never been taken literally.
 
That's the exact same excuse Trump suporters use when they to try to explain away his many many lies.
 
> Of course, that is debated by some catholic, bu I have still never met a christian who believe in the anything as naive.
 
You sure have not met many Christians!  I have never met a Christian who didn't believe something exactly that naive. I concede there are a few that have abandoned the idea of Christianity but not the ASCII sequence C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n-i- t-y, although I have not personally met them.
 
> You might read the book by Jean Trouillard or Paul Valadier. You might change your mind on this, but perhaps you don’t want to change your mind.
 
I don't want to read their books because I see little point in reading a book written by someone who knows even less about how the world really works than I do. Life is too short to read every book ever written so one must use judgement and be selective.
 
 John K Clark
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spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 2, 2019, 12:53:36 PM6/2/19
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Because B lies all the more to try to get elected? 


-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jun 1, 2019 3:01 pm
Subject: Re: Trump Supporters?


When America is presented a choice:

A. con-artist, blowhard fascist
B. cultured, intellectual liberal

A always has a chance of winning.

@philipthrift

On Saturday, June 1, 2019 at 1:43:56 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
We are weavers in the web that we wove. We are victims of this technological marvel called the media, which now includes the internet. Joseph Goebbels, propaganda minister for the third Reich, said that a lie repeated often enough assumes a life as a "sort of truth." The media has becomes a crap-fest of nonsense that pumps out half-truths and sometimes outright lies. With the massive dollars behind this industry liberality based on evidence, facts, and logic is simply drowned out in the huge decibel volume against it. Donald t'Rump knows this as much as Goebbels did, and t'Rump is a pure grifter and hustler.

LC

On Saturday, June 1, 2019 at 9:59:21 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:
[Philip Benjamin] 
Trump supporters? That is a phrase inappositely coined by America haters—i.e. the Fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Progressive, Liberal, Humanist PAGANS or WAMP-the-Ingrate, who hate the very foundations and founders of this Republic. Over 62 million adults, bona fide American citizens, surely KNEW that this was the last chance for America to be America!! It was a question of now or never. The truth will be out if the present Dept. of Justice has the guts to go ahead with an impartial investigation into the politico-deep state- media usurpation of the American government at all levels from the City/County and State to the Non-sovereign Federation of the Sovereign States of this Constitutional Republic of Lex Rex and not Rex Lex (http://constitution.org/sr/ lexrex.htm). See Lex Rex of Samuel Rutherford (Presbyterian Minister). Also its high recommendation by the “Prince of Preacher” Spurgeon (Baptist Minister). American Constitution is an extension of various Church Constitutions. The Colonies already had all institutions of Freedom in place after the historical and historic First Great Awakening. No other people EVER in the annals of history did or could have ever come up with any such ideas. The Magna Carta (of “We the Nobles”), the Mayflower Compact and the Puritan Mission Statement to American Indians come close. Ignorance coupled with willful disrespect for one’s heritage as facilitated on the WAMP-erial campuses is a sure path to victory for Socialist-Marxist-Progressive PAGANISM of the types of Nordic pagan Hitler, Slavic pagan Stalin, Caucasian pagan Mussolini etc., or of the type of Celtic pagan French anarchists. https://www.wnd.com/2019/02/ americas-dangerous-historical- ignorance/           
Philip Benjamin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2019 8:11 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Allah: the One and Only Deity
 
On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 3:16 AM Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
 
>> From the Catholic Encyclopedia, volume 7 page 792:
"The son of God is omniscient and omnipotent  knowing history in advance and being able to control its course”.
 
> The Pope Jean-Paul 2 made explicit that all statement of that kind are parabola and should never been taken literally.
 
That's the exact same excuse Trump suporters use when they to try to explain away his many many lies.
 
> Of course, that is debated by some catholic, bu I have still never met a christian who believe in the anything as naive.
 
You sure have not met many Christians!  I have never met a Christian who didn't believe something exactly that naive. I concede there are a few that have abandoned the idea of Christianity but not the ASCII sequence C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n-i- t-y, although I have not personally met them.
 
> You might read the book by Jean Trouillard or Paul Valadier. You might change your mind on this, but perhaps you don’t want to change your mind.
 
I don't want to read their books because I see little point in reading a book written by someone who knows even less about how the world really works than I do. Life is too short to read every book ever written so one must use judgement and be selective.
 
 John K Clark
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howardmarks

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Jun 2, 2019, 4:18:05 PM6/2/19
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I think the labels "fascist" or "liberal" of A. and B. are distortions. There are lots of con-artists, blowhards, cultured and/or intellectual people that have neither of those prejudicial labels. .... I don't identify as either...
Cheers! HowardM

Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 2, 2019, 4:23:25 PM6/2/19
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-LTRwZb35A

Humor is the final defense.

LC
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PGC

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Jun 2, 2019, 5:12:17 PM6/2/19
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On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 6:53:36 PM UTC+2, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
Because B lies all the more to try to get elected? 


I'll bite the conspiracy discourse bait today by phrasing as follows: There are lying corrupt fucks on every side and if you don't identify with simplistic politics and its boring ideological labels, then why post at all? To advertise your innocence to strangers? Post your name, address, and your credit card details with security number please. You'll understand why a few lines down.

Fun and games aside: Who's party/ideology will more likely bring results to working class wages, pensions, medical bills, work accidents, workers rights, and a tomorrow with less toxic shit piling up where you live? Which party history/profile, with all the upper class corrupt bullshit and propaganda of all of them fits the bill, at least to a tiny bare minimum?

Which side is more likely to stupidly and expensively try to educate people, diminish student debts for those trying to set better track for their home zone, instead of snubbing them and pretending they don't exist? 

So surprise, I guess you want to drag me into a flame war: credit card details to me privately NOW or no show. Why? Because your vote has consequences: you voted to fuck education, so you guys gotta pay up front! BooyakahYeah bitches! Plus I copyrighted my cursing to make up for this lesson that you're not paying for! Gazingblingbling: That's a double in yo faces!

These answers are not pretty (except my cursing, which is of course classy and copyrighted as fuck), definitely far from any ideals we have the luxury to discuss out here... but it is what it is, folks. The maverick billionaire with cartoon hair will keep mavericking your net take with his billionaire cronies, probably on your death beds through some dumb liberal black trans doctors with terminator dildos... and guess what? We'll still have to pay more! PGC
 

spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 2, 2019, 5:47:24 PM6/2/19
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Funny that! I identify as being Both.  Basically, what I hate from the now, socialist-communists in my former Party, is the presumption on their own part of self-righteousness. It's become a readily, identifiable earmark. (J' Accuse Liberale') because I used to be one of you, and grew up with the preponderance of self righteousness, focused upon religious Christians. They world has now changed, and the creepy-smugness, and sense of superiority, is held by progressives, worldwide, nowadays!  It's now the pretentious superior progressives that have earned this Traveling Trophy. No, I don't consider Libs burning in hell for rejecting Mr. God, or Bibles! Me no care, as long as one can help matters, yes, materially speaking. Plainly put, the Jesus folk are less insufferable, than the Great Enlightened. More trustworthy too.  

Darwin bless us all!

PGC

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Jun 2, 2019, 7:29:10 PM6/2/19
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On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:47:24 PM UTC+2, spudb...@aol.com wrote:

Darwin bless us all!


Lol, not you. He'd say you're voting against your own survival, work, meds, and benefits. He'd call you too stupid to bless. PGC 

John Clark

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Jun 2, 2019, 7:37:56 PM6/2/19
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On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 4:23 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:
That is great! Thank you Lawrence.

John K Clark

 

Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 2, 2019, 8:14:29 PM6/2/19
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About every century there is a tendency for more sociopathic disordered or malignant narcissists, such as t'Rump *-- see below for more, to assume power. Last century this occurred with the rise of communism in Russia and fascism in western Europe. The century before beginning with the end of the 18th century had Jacobins having fun chopping heads in Paris which culminated in Napoleon. There have been about every century a flare up of these, and the 17th century saw all sorts of collective insanity with the 30 Years War, the Huguenot war, the English Civil War and so forth. Based on the general time table, we are coming due for the next grand episode of chaos. And just as the Grateful Dead song Hell in a Bucket puts it the snakes come marching in --- and sure enough here they come. We may be heading into a doozie this time, as we have the nuclear explosive power to unleash several thousand WWII's. It looks to me that the United States as the leader in the world is now the leader in the coming next mass insanity.

Look it up, but there is an interview by Barbara Walters of Donald t'Rump where the camera makes views of his office walls. These wall are covered with portraits of himself. Donald t'Rump sees himself as the most brilliant of people, when a professor at his Alma mater called him "the dumbest goddammed student he ever knew."  Danald t'Rump is way past the point of the Dunning Kruger effect. He is also clearly narcissistic and has also been investigated by SNY Attorney General for laundering money going back decades. He is a man who serves the criminal world by laundering its money through illicit real estate transactions.

For decades now anything liberal has been repeatedly labelled as almost satanic. The messages of this have been thumping people for decades and now we are at a point where if you do have some liberality of mind you now find yourself contemplating leaving the country. Of course the problem is this is infectious and a number of other nations are into this. Also there is the rise of fascist parties, and in the US we are seeing the rise of far extremists such as neo-Nazis. I see lots of people who have drunk the koolaid of this shit, and it is growing in popularity. On the other hand maybe I should just give this a shrug. I really question whether humanity is going to exist past a half century or so. So whiskey tango foxtrot, maybe if we are all going to die why not let the psychopaths and their idiot followers just blow it all up, rather than going out in a whimper?

LC 

PGC

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Jun 2, 2019, 10:37:28 PM6/2/19
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On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 2:14:29 AM UTC+2, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
About every century there is a tendency for more sociopathic disordered or malignant narcissists, such as t'Rump *-- see below for more, to assume power. Last century this occurred with the rise of communism in Russia and fascism in western Europe. The century before beginning with the end of the 18th century had Jacobins having fun chopping heads in Paris which culminated in Napoleon. There have been about every century a flare up of these, and the 17th century saw all sorts of collective insanity with the 30 Years War, the Huguenot war, the English Civil War and so forth. Based on the general time table, we are coming due for the next grand episode of chaos. And just as the Grateful Dead song Hell in a Bucket puts it the snakes come marching in --- and sure enough here they come. We may be heading into a doozie this time, as we have the nuclear explosive power to unleash several thousand WWII's. It looks to me that the United States as the leader in the world is now the leader in the coming next mass insanity.

I hear you Lawrence and appreciate your clarity. Conservative to far right discourses completely eclipse the larger historical backdrop: we are a people dependent and hooked to waging war for thousands of years. And we almost cleaned/sobered up in the latter half of the century. We approached civility even if we couldn't get things like income disparities under control. Folks are justifiably angry with progressive junk democrats are peddling because they weren't effective enough, they didn't cater to middle and lower influence strata of society enough, which you probably know. The US as leader of mass insanity, and it's being copied world wide AND these leaders are meeting. Lol on the great meetings of noob selfish money- and power grubbers, that think they are stronger together! Egoists stronger together! They should rob themselves leave us alone and we prosecute. Win win for everybody lol.
 

Look it up, but there is an interview by Barbara Walters of Donald t'Rump where the camera makes views of his office walls. These wall are covered with portraits of himself. Donald t'Rump sees himself as the most brilliant of people, when a professor at his Alma mater called him "the dumbest goddammed student he ever knew."  Danald t'Rump is way past the point of the Dunning Kruger effect. He is also clearly narcissistic and has also been investigated by SNY Attorney General for laundering money going back decades. He is a man who serves the criminal world by laundering its money through illicit real estate transactions.

Those things reek to the high heavens. Mueller put out the proof: evidence of sweeping and systematic manipulation of the election and despite immunity, no evidence that they didn't obstruct. Immunity or not, that's criminal in my book. And while drowned in the perpetual scandal noise they all do the same thing: enrich themselves by hollowing out checks and balances. They don't want to be checked. So my read is to check them and their discourse. 
 

For decades now anything liberal has been repeatedly labelled as almost satanic. The messages of this have been thumping people for decades and now we are at a point where if you do have some liberality of mind you now find yourself contemplating leaving the country. Of course the problem is this is infectious and a number of other nations are into this. Also there is the rise of fascist parties, and in the US we are seeing the rise of far extremists such as neo-Nazis. I see lots of people who have drunk the koolaid of this shit, and it is growing in popularity. On the other hand maybe I should just give this a shrug. I really question whether humanity is going to exist past a half century or so. So whiskey tango foxtrot, maybe if we are all going to die why not let the psychopaths and their idiot followers just blow it all up, rather than going out in a whimper?

I can relate and would offer you to consider engaging them as democratic equals. Idea: If they mess with us, leave or go hard. Let them spam their own thread full of their gospels. The religious right wing seriousness thread of non-smugness for the good boys too smart to vote along their self-interest, who like marching in rows and going to church like the obedient, kind, trustworthy people they are. They should do it. 

To Spunkboy: Why you right guys pussying about copy pasting raging like noobs? Bring it on Spud and Co! Make a thread with all the evil crimes pretentious progressive elite smug snobs like myself are guilty of, too dumb to see, and let's see what insights you can offer to science, theories of everything, philosophy, belief, aesthetics....Topics of this list. Show us the damned truth already!  I expect from you folk hundreds of pages of posts of your awesome hatred towards my freedom ass and I will learn from you. We fought for your ability to say your piece in a free world, and if you want to mess with that, then enlighten me by all means. If we were in a fascist scenario, increasingly flirting with more and more right.... everything goes military. Zero on the sexiness interest scale, No discussions here or on social media. Nada zip on the fun so you'll always lose me unless you seriously up your game. Stop posting in random new threads, title your threads "Right Wing Christian Science that isn't righteous" and death match game on. See if posters give a muck, otherwise leave, see the writing on the wall and go to your church or party meetings, marches or whatever, you dangerous clowns. Who knows, maybe you'd consider doing what's good for you instead of the tin foil hat man hallucination yodeling. We're messy here, but you've gotta bring more level than this drivel. 

We're pro free bullshiters out here lol. Maybe your dirty liberal dreams play well with mechanism? It also is into purity, cleanliness, order, straight lines, numbers, Gods, Demons, hierarchies and those kinds of things. PGC

Philip Thrift

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Jun 3, 2019, 4:20:40 AM6/3/19
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Like Richard Rorty, I'm just a (cultured, intellectual) bourgeoisie liberal.

"While the Left’s back was turned, the bourgeoisification of the white proletariat which began in WWII and continued up through the Vietnam War has been halted, and the process has gone into reverse. America is now proletarianizing its bourgeoisie, and this process is likely to culminate in bottom-up revolt, of the sort [fill in the blank] hopes to foment." (Rorty, 1997)


On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 3:18:05 PM UTC-5, howardmarks wrote:
I think the labels "fascist" or "liberal" of A. and B. are distortions. There are lots of con-artists, blowhards, cultured and/or intellectual people that have neither of those prejudicial labels. .... I don't identify as either...
Cheers! HowardM

Bruno Marchal

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Jun 3, 2019, 5:37:38 AM6/3/19
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Yes, Mueller gave the evidences/proofs. Now, a proof not read is worth nothing. Alas.
Barr made a confusion showing he did not read it cautiously enough. What happens in the US is rather frightening. Democracy is at stake here.

Bruno



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John Clark

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Jun 3, 2019, 9:13:44 AM6/3/19
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On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 4:18 PM howardmarks <howar...@doitnow.com> wrote:

> I think the labels "fascist" or "liberal" of A. and B. are distortions.

I too am very confused about this entire left-wing right-wing business, just a few years ago right wingers thought the CIA and FBI were the good guys and the Kremlin the bad guys but Trump suporters thing the oposite, the republican right wing were free traders but Trump is a self described "tariff man", the right wing was for smaller less intrusive government but Trump wants the government to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

I don't use the word "fascist" lightly, I'm not in the habit, as some on the left are, of calling anyone who's politics I disagree with a fascist, but when it comes to Trump supporters I sincerely think the word is justified; 53% of republicans say they would be OK with Trump canceling the 2020 election. And Fascist dictators cancel elections, lead chants to imprison their political opponents, try to change the law so they can sue newspapers and close them down when they write articles against them, jail reporters who don't cooperate, order TV networks to stop satirizing them, put family members in positions of power, tell police not to be gentle when they arrest somebody, say some Nazis are "very good people" and develop a cult following that will believe anything they say, such as vaccines cause autism or windmills cause cancer.

Today it's foolish to claim there is a moral equivalence between the two major political parties, at one time there was one (and I was a Republican for most of my life) but there is no equivalence anymore. The Democrats have done stuff that is very unwise and unfair but it would be going way too far to call them fascist. A fascist political party is as bad as things can get, the sort of thing you saw in Europe in the 1930s, and things are not currently as bad as things can get but only because the American Fascist Party (aka Republicans) still has some competition from a very large but sometimes silly and often dysfunctional non-fascist party, the democrats.

 John K Clark  
 

Philip Thrift

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Jun 3, 2019, 9:37:35 AM6/3/19
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The Republican Party and Democratic Party became pretty much identified with their current alignment in 1932 with the election of FDR.

The Democratic Party has since been the only origin of what might be called progressive legislation: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts, ...

It is true that some Republicans crossed over to help in some cases, and the segregationist southern Democrats then changed their party affiliation to Republican.

Progressive law like EPA and women's rights in academia sports were passed under Nixon, but the Democrats were in charge of Congress.

So we know that progressive laws have been passed when Democrats were in charge of both president and Congress, or just in charge of Congress, but ...

Name a single progressive law passed when there was a Republican president and Republican House and Senate since 1932.


@philipthrift 

John Clark

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Jun 3, 2019, 12:28:51 PM6/3/19
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On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 9:37 AM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Name a single progressive law passed when there was a Republican president and Republican House and Senate since 1932.

To be honest at this point I don't think the distinction between progressive and non-progressive is very important. We've had bad presidents before and if we get one again it won't be the end of the world, but what I'm really worried about is getting a bad dictator. In 2016 Trump said he would abide by the election results only if he won, it was bad enough when he was only a candidate but now he's Commander In Chief with tanks at his command. Even when he won he was a sore winner and said the election was fake, if he looses in 2020 do you really think he will be a good sport about it?

 Even if Trump loses in a landslide in the 2020 election I would say there is a 40% chance he will say the election was fake and try to stay in office long after January 2021 and claim he will reschedule a new election at some vague unspecified future date. And if there is an inverse of the 2016 situation and Trump wins the popular vote but loses in the Electoral College I think it's virtually certain he will need to be dragged out of the Oval Office by armed guards, the trouble is Trump will have armed guards of his own. I don't know if Trump's attempt to become dictator will be successful, he's not very bright so that's a good sign, but even if he fails it will be ugly, such a power grab will lead to blood literally flowing in the streets.

 John K Clark
 

Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 3, 2019, 12:33:21 PM6/3/19
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On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 8:13:44 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
The equivalency between the two parties is often drawn with the fact they both take corporate campaign donations. Sure, from the perspective of any corporation the outcome of an election is uncertain and while their leadership may prefer the right winged candidate if they give money to the more liberal candidate who wins then they can still demand their influence. It might be said a big difference between a Republican and a Democrat elected to office is the velocity with which their knees hit the floor when confronted by their corporate patrons. Also interestingly during times of financial distress, such as 2008, corporations will even favor funding Democrats because they know the liberals are more willing to pull the Keynesian levers to fix the economic mess the banks and corporations generated.

However, since I first voted during the Reagan years my observation has been the Republicans are becoming more authoritarian; they talk freedom etc and then do everything they can to restrict democratic institutions, and now we have a president who recently said to the effect, "This is my damned country and I can do what ever the hell I want with it." That is the attitude of a dictator. The first inkling of this was after the 1994 election when there was this rise of extremism, militias and pundits such as M. Savage telling citizens to use "headshots" against any officer trying to confiscate a gun. I am sensing how a great number of people in this country are behind this attitude of totalitarianism as well. It may be the case that t'Rump will if he wins this election, or if he annuls the results because he loses, that we will see ever more curtailments against the press that fails to conform, more harassment against those identified as liberal and more laws designed to restrict the expression of various opinions or maybe even scientific facts. 

George Orwell wrote on how authoritarians do what they can to erase memory. In one decade they may be all for unrestricted flow of capital and the next decade they are all for tariffs. Of course we all know that tariffs are a terrible way to cure trade imbalances, but with t'Rump his 6th grade understanding of the world says otherwise, and average people who are about as bright think this has defined conservatism all along. Traditionally Republicans regarded Russia as a serious menace, and now for some reason Russia is great and t'Rump even seems disposed to Russia's program of dismantling the EU and fragmenting Europe into weak states. Ahh, they might say, "this is the new Russia." Yeah sure, the Communist commissars burned their party cards in 1991 and became mafia-style businessmen --- the sort Donald t'Rump likes. 

The term fascist is the only one we have, and it is the case this right winged movement is different from classic fascism of the early 20th century. We have no other word for what is developing, and maybe by the time a word is coined it will seal its power. It is similar to fascism in that it is a reactionary movement based on populist politics that is designed to offset what otherwise might be a more left winged rebellion or revolution. The wealth gaps and the exponential growth in the power of billionaires, while the average middle class or "petite bourgeoisie" person is falling into at best income stagnation or decline, are a recipe for future chaos. This besotted France in the late 18th century, and Russia in the early 20th, with the result of a radical left type of revolution. Fascism is a way of generating the appearance of a sort of revolution, but which maintains or even solidified the positions of those in elite positions and power. In the case of Nazi Germany it went pretty well for the corporations, and even after the war and some recovery it went well again. It was amusing when Mitsubishi put their name in big letters on their little trucks, when in 1942 in the US if you drove such a truck you would have been arrested by military police.

Maybe we will turn around, but I am beginning to get cranky and pessimistic about that. Also environmental issues, in particular global warming, are issues the right wing has a huge denial industry over. Of course the real science is clear, but the few denialists, such as Fred Singer (who campaigned for the tobacco industry etc), are given a hugely amplified voice. That stuff will kill us. In 40 to 50 years the amount of biota and biomass and the number of species on Earth will be half what it is now. What people do not realize is these systems will only respond linearly up to a point, and then some highly nonlinear collapse may happen. We may in not too many decades find we can no longer perform large scale agriculture, and when that happens folks the human race game is over. Already the temperature gradient between the temperate zone and arctic is reduced, which lowers the kinetic energy in the atmosphere that bottles up arctic air. These strange fluctuations in weather may before long bring hot summers with intermittent winter snaps that kill crops. Interestingly the denial industry is using these cold snaps as "evidence" against global warming. 

More immediately another source of doom-sense, is that Democrats seem likely to put Biden in as their candidate in 2020. I would compare this to an action movie with two fighting roles, one played by Arnold Schwarzenegger and the other played by Don Knotts. Biden is a nice guy, he is mild mannered and a thinking man's gentleman, but we need somebody who is young, vital, who when it gets tough can eat f**kers for lunch and who can stare down this orange Godzilla demolishing the American Republic. The Democrats seem eager to lose another, and for all we know it might be the last, presidential election and bring disaster. The next few years could well be the twilight of the American Republic and the rise of a new totalitarian age.

LC

John Clark

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Jun 3, 2019, 4:45:11 PM6/3/19
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On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 12:33 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The equivalency between the two parties is often drawn with the fact they both take corporate campaign donations.

I don't mind that so much, governments have caused vastly more misery in the world than governments, that's why I became a libertarian.

> Of course we all know that tariffs are a terrible way to cure trade imbalances,

Yes, and as as often as not trade imbalances don't even need to be cured, I have a trade imbalance with my local supermarket, I buy lots of stuff from them and they never buy anything from me, but that's OK with me.
 
> but with t'Rump his 6th grade understanding of the world says otherwise,

You're insulting school kids, I would much rather have a bright 6th grader as president.
 
> The wealth gaps and the exponential growth in the power of billionaires, while the average middle class or "petite bourgeoisie" person is falling into at best income stagnation or decline, are a recipe for future chaos.

Yes, that's what made me change my political philosophy, until a few years ago I was a hardcore libertarian, I still am on social issues but not economic ones. I've always thought if a theory doesn't fit the facts then it must be abandoned regardless of how much you love it, and I saw some fact I just could not ignore.
  
In 2010 the richest 388 people had as much wealth as poorest half of the entire human race, that's 3.6 Billion people. In 2014 the richest 85 people did. In 2015 the richest 62 people did. In 2017 the richest 8 people did. Think of it, the 8 richest Human beings have as much wealth as the poorest 3.6 BILLION Human beings! History has pretty decisively shown that huge wealth inequality just ain't healthy for any society, although history has no examples of inequality of 
the
 magnitude
we have now.

 
The improvements in AI that are certain to come
 
in the next few years
 
will only accelerate the acceleration of this socially destabilizing trend unless something pushes back, something like government action. Health insurance for all might be a good place to start. However Donald Trump wants to push for lowering taxes on the rich, getting rid of the inheritance tax, and eliminating health care for
 
the
 
24 million
 
poorest people in the country;
 
 but that's pushing in the wrong direction and will only accelerate the acceleration of 
the acceleration
of the wealth gap.
 
Anybody who is not terrified by this doesn't understand the situation.
 
One way or another this trend will NOT continue, if government action doesn't slow down the widening of the gap something far far more unpleasant will.
If
 I were one of those 8 hyper rich people I'd be calling for change louder than anyone because I like the fact that there is a connection between my head and my shoulders and would prefer to keep it that way.
Let me be clear, 
I'm not talking about "should", I'm not talking about morality, I'm just saying 
that
when the gap between the rich and the poor gets 
too
large social instability occurs
and that can be very unhealthy for those at the very top.
  

Americans like to think they live in a meritocracy but they don't, the truth is if you're born poor in the USA and are talented you're less likely to get rich than if you were born in other advanced countries, particularly one of the Scandinavian socialist countries. Take a look at this graph, it's informally called "The Great Gatsby Curve" by economists and is a plot of the Gini coefficient for several industrialized countries (a measure of economic inequality) against economic mobility (the likelihood if you're born in one economic class you'll die in the same economic class):  

The Great Gatsby Curve 

As you can see the USA is in the extreme upper right of the plot and that is exactly where you don't want to be; enormous economic inequality and little economic mobility, the same conditions that occurred just before the French Revolution. The only reason there hasn't already been blood in the streets is probably because the poor are unrealistically optimistic about getting rich. Here is another interesting graph, it plots several countries actual economic mobility against the perceived economic mobility with the diagonal line representing an accurate assessment of possibilities. As you can see Americans are far too optimistic while most other countries are somewhat too pessimistic, only the Italians get it about right and see things as they actually are:  
So we're sitting on a time bomb and the only thing stopping it from going off is a misperception by the poor and lower middle class, but it's only a matter of time before they wise up and when they do I suggest you invest in guillotine futures.
 
>  The Democrats seem eager to lose another, and for all we know it might be the last, presidential election

It very well could be that it doesn't matter who wins the 2020 presidential because regardless of the outcome Trump intends to stay in office until the day he dies, and after that Donald junior or Ivanka will take over.  

John K Clark



 

spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 3, 2019, 5:54:53 PM6/3/19
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Yeah, of course!  Nyet Problemy, comrade!
 

-----Original Message-----
From: PGC <multipl...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 2, 2019 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: Trump Supporters?


On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:47:24 PM UTC+2, spudb...@aol.com wrote:

Darwin bless us all!


Lol, not you. He'd say you're voting against your own survival, work, meds, and benefits. He'd call you too stupid to bless. PGC 
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spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 3, 2019, 5:57:46 PM6/3/19
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It's an attempt to control or coral the rest of us. I look at the Left (soc-comms) whether media or not, as sort of an obsessive-compulsive disorder. Hell, I should know, I used to be one them.  


-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Sun, Jun 2, 2019 8:14 pm
Subject: Re: Trump Supporters?

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spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 3, 2019, 6:10:50 PM6/3/19
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So, you don't feel that the democrats are funded by billionaires as well and do the billionaires bidding?
Do you think that democrats are the party of the 'little guy," or the US middle class?
You do know that the money flows in from the uber rich and this, then, is a Plutocracy? Or do you feel it's a republic?



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John Clark

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Jun 3, 2019, 6:54:15 PM6/3/19
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On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 6:10 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

So, you don't feel that the democrats are funded by billionaires as well and do the billionaires bidding?

It depends on the billionaire.  Warren Buffett and Bill Gates agree with the democrats that everybody in the USA should have health care and it should be payed for by increasing the taxes on the rich. The Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson want to lower the taxes on the rich even more than Trump already has and pay for that loss of income by striping 22 million Americans of what little health care they currently have.
  
> Do you think that democrats are the party of the 'little guy," or the US middle class?

The middle class, which is a big improvement from being the party of the super mega uber rich.

John K Clark
 

 

spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 3, 2019, 7:32:53 PM6/3/19
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Yes indeed, but it is still rule by rich Rogues whether the Koch's or Georgy Soros. Banks were declared too big to fail, under Bush 43, and happy Obama continued their funding, if you remember? There are hardly any, billionaire good guys, which is why the globalist crap has been pushed by both parties, decimating the US middle class. For a health care plan that beats UK style ones, we need to go to massively, interstate, and maybe inter-continental health plans, that covers tens of millions as a pay-in, pay-out. Don't mind me, I am but an American serf, an NPC, because the in this world, cash is the ghost in the machine.

-----Original Message-----
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John Clark

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Jun 3, 2019, 9:12:27 PM6/3/19
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On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 7:32 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>Yes indeed, but it is still rule by rich Rogues whether the Koch's or Georgy Soros.

Do you think there is a difference between the rich ruling that the rich should pay more taxes to pay for healthcare for the poor and the rich ruling that the poor should receive less healthcare so the rich could get yet another tax break? I do, I think there is a difference.


 
> Banks were declared too big to fail, under Bush 43, and happy Obama continued their funding, if you remember?

I do remember and Obama was absolutely positively correct,  they were too big to fail, if they had 2008 would have been 1929. We came within a gnat's ass of a total economic meltdown and I give Obama great credit for avoided that, I just wish he had done more because we did get the worst rescission in 80 years and that could have been avoided if he had also bailed out Lehman brothers.

Fun Fact: the loans were paid back by 2012 and the government actually ended up making 266.7 billion dollars out of the bailout deal due to interest and dividends.
 
> There are hardly any, billionaire good guys,

I don't agree with that at all! Bill Gates has saved more lives and reduced the net amount of misery in the world VASTLY more than Mother Teresa ever did. Gates has already given away 50 billion dollars and he isn't finished yet, and just as important he has given away the money very intelligently (mostly in the third world) to maximize the number of lives saved. Gates gave it away so wisely that Warren Buffet asked Gates to figure out how to best give away his money too. If I could be assured that all future billionaires would be like them I wouldn't worry so much, but there is no such assurance. 

 
> which is why the globalist crap has been pushed by both parties,

I said it before I'll say it again, in the era of Trump its absolutely nuts to claim there is any sort of moral equivalence between the two political parties.   
 
> For a health care plan that beats UK style ones [...]

Beats the UK style health plan? You are ambitious! I'd be delighted if the USA had a plan that was half as good.

John K Clark

 

spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 3, 2019, 10:00:54 PM6/3/19
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Well,  to tell the world that Most Americans do not have insurance coverage would be one of the democrat lies.
"Health insurance coverage in the United States is provided by several public and private sources. During 2016, the U.S. population overall was approximately 325 million, with 53 million people 65 years of age and over, covered by the federal Medicare program. The 272 million non-institutional people under age 65 either obtained their coverage from employer-based (155 million) or non-employer based (90 million) sources, or were uninsured (27 million).[1] Approximately 15 million military personnel received coverage through the Veteran's Administration and Military Health System.[2] During the year 2016, 91.2% of Americans had health insurance coverage.[3] Despite being among the top world economic powers, the US remains the sole industrialized nation in the world without universal health care coverage.[4][5]"
Source: 

As far as Gates goes, for the richest dude on earth (sometimes) he doesn't give jack, compared to the self-promoting. late,Teresa. Moral equivalence has zero to do with practical matters, like creating and distributing wealth. Your siding with Gates simply indicates that you'll tolerate any sort of oligarch that funds the party. Where as the Koch brothers, to my eyes are as anti-American as the dems are! This is why the uber rich have 3 homes in the world. So when they wreck this place, they can set up shop, elsewhere. 


-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Mon, Jun 3, 2019 9:12 pm
Subject: Re: Trump Supporters?

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John Clark

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Jun 3, 2019, 10:34:43 PM6/3/19
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On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:00 PM spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Well,  to tell the world that Most Americans do not have insurance coverage would be one of the democrat lies.

I never said most don't have insurance, but before Obamacare 41 million people didn't have any, thanks to Obamacare that number shrank to 28.5, but if Trump had got his way (and he nearly did) with his "repeal and replace" obscenity that number would have grown to 52.5 million. Repeal and replace would have been even worse than just a straight repeal.  

The USA spends FAR more on healthcare than any other country on the planet and has done so for many decades, yet it doesn't seem to be getting much bang for the buck. In 2016 the USA spends $9451 per-person per-year on healthcare but is only #31 on the list of countries with the longest lived citizens; Japan is #1 on the longevity list and spend only $4150 per person per year, Australia is # 4 and spends $4420, and at  #31 is the USA which spends $9451. Every one of the top 30 longevity countries have 3 things in common:

1) They all live longer than people in the USA
2) They all spend far less on healthcare than the USA does.
3) Unlike the USA they all have Single Payer Healthcare.


> As far as Gates goes, for the richest dude on earth (sometimes) he doesn't give jack,

Gates has given away far more money than other person in human history, and he done it very wisely (vaccines and clean water). It's estimated that since 1990 he has saved 122 million lives.

 John K Clark



spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 3, 2019, 11:03:58 PM6/3/19
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I'd go for a cross-state (the Euro's will be confused by this!) wide participation on plans, millions throw in, millions take out. I'd do medicare for all as a temp thing to cross over into eventually. Obamacare was insolvency care and the rates kept going vastly, higher and higher. This is why it croaked,  not because of nefarious conservatives, but for inbuilt ideological viewpoints, or what's an excreta-covered Los Angeles for?  


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Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 4, 2019, 12:47:18 PM6/4/19
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On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 3:45:11 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 12:33 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The equivalency between the two parties is often drawn with the fact they both take corporate campaign donations.

I don't mind that so much, governments have caused vastly more misery in the world than governments, that's why I became a libertarian.

I presume you meant to say more misery in the world than business. Well, I suppose the distinction between a capitalist system is the corporations own the government, while in a socialist or communist system the government own the corporations. Ernst Krupp wrote in 1933, "We have put Mr. Hitler on the payroll." 

I could go further, including why I am not a libertarian. I pondered that nonsense years ago. The problem is that market systems are just not stable. They can collapse, and do so rather spontaneously. These can drag lots of people into misery and death. Even if you had a libertarian system without government, or government intrusions, the corporations would at some point end up inventing a government. I can also say that I am not a lot of things that end in "ism" "ian" "anity" and so forth. These ideological scripts are to me largely nonsense. I do vote in most elections, even the minor ones, but I largely do not so much vote for certain candidates, but against certain candidates.

LC

spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 4, 2019, 1:45:46 PM6/4/19
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Well Krupp Steel and the other German industrialists "believed," they could control dolf, via the money supply. They, in 1929, as I recall, founded the a. hitler fund, to finance his career. When the 1929 stock market crash happened, and set of the depression, which under Hoover and Rooselvelt's public polices became the Great Depression. dolf was in like Flynn. Hoover's signing of Smoot-Hawley, as the late senator and historian Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, was the road that led to WW2, Hiroshima, and Auschwitz. 


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On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 3:45:11 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
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PGC

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On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 7:45:46 PM UTC+2, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
Well Krupp Steel and the other German industrialists "believed," they could control dolf, via the money supply. They, in 1929, as I recall, founded the a. hitler fund, to finance his career. When the 1929 stock market crash happened, and set of the depression, which under Hoover and Rooselvelt's public polices became the Great Depression. dolf was in like Flynn. Hoover's signing of Smoot-Hawley, as the late senator and historian Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, was the road that led to WW2, Hiroshima, and Auschwitz. 

Nobody here cares for propaganda that one dimensional. I want the professional adult kind of propaganda. For a nanosecond, German press parses things like this, excuse the awkward formulation due to half-assed translation:


A meeting of far right nationalists from France, Netherlands, Germany, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Austria, Flanders, Denmark, Estonia etc. took place in Italy. Eleven parties from the old world got together to organize their super-caucus before the recent European elections, proclaiming themselves to be “the real Europeans” preparing to enter a parliament they despise. Stage in Milan, Puccini victory aria of the sun rising and “Vinceró!”, without a hint of the turbulence and drama from Vienna, where the fall of the now world famous vice chancellor, through a video with unclear source, brought the entire government to its knees. 


They all pretended “nothing happened” even though they knew the opposite. We’re not talking miscellaneous govt. officials passing themselves Nazi gifs on their messaging apps on Adolph’s Birthday; the tape implicated highest levels of govt. exposing the precarious state of Austrian politics because its viewing sets up fundamental questions: are these guys trustworthy to the degree that they should be managing state-level business/affairs… Is Austria just some special case, as the right will have us believe, or is this representative of how the right exists and operates internationally… with an extremely relaxed view on how parties are funded, relaxed relations to foreign sources of income, carefree relations to branches of justice and pretty lenient and liberal in representing truth.


Talk about the rule of law… And we seen some sick stuff but that vice chancellor tripping balls in Ibiza… how pro gangsta his moves were. If we were directing the scene, we’d tell our subject to tone down his performance/level of detail/the hard sell a bit, as nobody’s gonna believe the thing. 


Then the usual battle for interpretation took its course, supporters downplaying the thing and opponents going “nope! That’s what this is.” Particularly the oh so patriotic new avant-garde apparently has no problem conspiring with foreign interests and selling their country’s political wares to get funded by dubious, nebulous types, and have their agendas dictated to them. They think this is the game and how it is won. Suddenly the conspiracy guys railing against and mucking with the system… are themselves the corrupt elite. 


Of course, our naive interpretation here is spun as “creating fake pseudo scandal liberal bullshit” and “that’s internal Austrian affairs. Isolated case.” There is vulnerability here, because the German right wing is fighting allegations of breaking campaign finance laws. Plus the video reignites the whole Russian connection narrative. Another constant with the nouveau right in Europe. A Russian ministerial document for example, that classifies a member of the German Bundestag wing of these guys as a “member under absolute control”. Intel guys mumbling stuff about Russian strategy changes with less focus on setting agendas through their own channels and media with increased focus on controlling individual targets with estimates ranging to about a dozen trojans. And of course the guys in question claim defamation and no ties to Russia. 


But they enjoy traveling there apparently, and find journalistic inquiries as to who picks up the checks where and why “petty”. Checking out Marine’s French version of the Milan meeting in 2014 in Lyon reveals yet again the presence of Russian delegates/influence. Two years after that they applied for 3 million Euro loan from Moskau but no clear evidence of receipt although there are further clues that she could’ve traded that cash for legitimizing Krim annexation; basically shutting her trap on it. SMS stuff from Kreml officials “Marine did not disappoint expectations” and “we’re gonna have to thank the French one way or another”. 


Same with Brexit master Farage: investigations of receiving convoluted payments from Russia. Destabilization of Europe is in Russian interest too. Connection to the Italian right’s, Salvini’s insistence on discontinuing the “useless if not harmful sanctions against Russia”. Does the Greek right wing with its discourse around “natural alliances between Greece and Russia” understand what they’re getting into? Isn’t Putin another clean, strong gentleman that is the only check against the weak pussification of an amoral and decadent Europe? Conspiracy seems like a tall order but Guy Verhofstadt is stating openly: right wing conspiracy to disintegrate EU with Kreml/Oligarch support. 


The unanimity mechanism of the European council is being glitched as veto-right of populists. EU can’t criticize moving US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as a diplomatic mistake because Hungary blocked with Orban, effectively becoming cartoon hair’s bitch in Brussels. And cartoon hair praises his buddy Orban for doing “great work” and “being respected by the whole of Europe” in the White House a few days ago.   


Europe folks see this a bit differently: nobody here respects Orban, internal affairs and judicial branches of his govt. betray our values: he’s another entry point for all folks that want to divide Europe. Not just US or Russian interests… increasingly China wants EU single market control to be part of their geopolitical strategy. The entry points keep multiplying. All Europe has as possible moves are sanction type instruments.


Merkel “Nationalism is the enemy of the European project. Part of this is rooted in financial corruption/influence of politics.” The Scandinavians are not immune or unaffected: “Swedendemocrats” got 17,5 % of the vote last year. Similar figures achieved by the “real Finnland”. In Estonia the right wing folks jumped from 8,1% to 17,8% this March. They still have to reach genuine majorities but in France they could become the largest party of the country. It’s getting harder and harder in the EU to build stable coalitions of moderates.


Their communications/media approaches are too powerful. Established political networks look old, stale, and rigid. The parallel to the 1930s where Nazi’s leveraged the power of video in expert fashion by broadcasting Olympic games 1936 is evident. The allegedly potent left fake news is non-existent digitally, while the right is hitting it out of the park on social media. Left propaganda, lol. A guy like Salvini has 3,7 Million followers on facebook. That’s Pop-Star level. Salvini is - as a single person platform - one of the largest mass media outlets in Italy, with the enormous advantage that him and his world view constitute the only voice, naturally free from dissent. Fighting political correctness. Defeating the lies. 


Fallen Austrian vice chancellor has 780.000 followers with teams pushing peoples’ buttons in good cop bad cop manner: celebrating mother’s day, childrens’ birthdays, Kiss and heart emojis mixed with healthy doses of evil asylum seekers, their sexual crimes, migrants that should leave etc. Those things aren’t just read and liked: they are propagated and spread with lighting speed.


Same with Marine, 1,5 Million followers and Orban 657000 followers. Even if you see these numbers as fake currency, you have to concede that corrupt folks everywhere hold the prize of “message control”. The unfiltered and unchecked spread of self-serving propaganda.


The more folks follow politicians and ideologues on social media, the more independent they become from the traditional fact checking mechanisms of investigative journalism, itself also at stake. Less dissent on their voices. Even when they get progressives angry… this just raises clicks and their popularity further. And in the attention binding business of the digital world, this is currency. People prefer watching videos than reading essays. 


The anger these folks are channeling has legitimate causes. Conspiracy charges against technocrats of the EU, always having to play second fiddle to economic powerhouses of the centre and the north, the ideal breeding ground to nourish hate dreams of destruction of the nation, traditions, religion, gay marriage couples adopting kids, Muslims from Africa: all the fault of Brussel liberal elites. Same old song. Kaczynski speaks like this, so does Orban and his Fidesz. Estonia, Bulgaria, Rumania, Czech Republic, Slovakia. 


The ridiculous thing about it is: none of these guys want to leave the Union!! Some of the data indicates that folks mistrust their own elites more than they mistrust Brussels! There are economic reasons: European structural and investment funds: between 2004 and 2020, the new Union members received 365 billion Euros. Corrupt regions became growth regions with infrastructure, Universities, Hospitals, government buildings, Internet, with Brussels helping to stabilize bureaucracies, civic structures, and justice branches. Modernization. Naturally, without equal distribution but stats show general living standards rose in those countries. So there isn’t an “objective reason” in Warsaw, Budapest, or Ljubljana to be against the EU. There are only the subjective kinds of reasons, like what spud peddles here. Feelings. 


Those countries know they have the EU to thank but they don’t feel at home. Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia: about 20 million of them have left their home countries for better lives in central Europe. A generation of eastern Europeans have come to experience the centre as maids, low wage earners in agriculture, construction etc. of the “rich” centre. They feel left behind. Wind in the sails of right wingers.They’re sick and tired of western imitation, so the clean guys that will “mix it up” and “show the politically correct assholes” have sudden appeal. Inferiority complexes turn into aggression. The discourse in Warsaw that “we got everything we could out of the EU and now we’re left only with annoying things like bullshit environmental duties, gay rights, migration quotas, along with tedious brokering of compromises in democracy. 


So by the time the refugee crises hits in 2015, with Germany helplessly trying to get a distribution quota system going, the eastern Europeans’ discourse sounds like “We survived systemic change, national sovereignty changes, we lost old jobs, we changed, changed everything… and yet haven’t caught up with the damned west! And now, we’re being asked to take care of folks even weaker than ourselves? You guys are joking right?”


In Brussels, this kind of thinking leads to hardheadedness that tends towards self-disenfranchisement of the countries in question. Nationalism and solo unilateral shit don’t fare too well and lead to … nothing. Poland and Hungary tend to marginalize themselves, run from the complex topics, kick and scream to no avail instead of pursuing national interests or those of other nations. Vicious circle: nationalist governments feel increasingly alienated in Brussels, leading to increased alienation towards EU at home. The Brussel elites and their technocratic nightmare are at fault, of course. The right used to use parliament as a stage to show their constituents how funny it is to muck with political correctness. But Marine changed most remarkably. 


Realizing that Frexit was no way forward “Vive l’Europe, la vraie” after being obliterated in a TV debate against Macron, she wants a right wing dream team for “real Europe”. The idea of a “genuine Europe” has no substance, so for now it looks as though disputes will not be avoidable. German AFD and Italy’s Lega are lightyears away from each other programmatically, when it comes to finance. About as far apart as centrists and the far left. Civil-, family-, gender wise there are obstacles to Marine’s dream: Polish PiS or Hungarian Fidesz are ideologically too far apart from right wing in France. But they pursue the dream anyway inside- and outside of parliament’s doors. A super caucus in parliament means more visibility, more power, and more money. 


EU and its parliament are the treasure chest for Marine. They always have been. Marine and Co. were close to bankruptcy many times and every time EU bailed them out. We don’t think they’d exist without the EU. No groups as brazen as them over here. EU parliament alleges that Marine and 16 party members paid for parliamentary assistants between 2009 and 2017, that were really working for her party instead: bodyguards etc. and around 7 million Euros. All we manage is a personal fine of 300k against her. The smallest caucus, Marine’s, apparently needed 234 bottles of Champagne in 2016, along with 400 Euro meals… another 500k. These funds are distributed for office, administrative costs, education/training to parliamentarians. 


Another constant: the immunity of our clean heroes to scandals. What their opponents can’t understand: the support doesn’t exist despite the scandals, the support comes because of them. They thrive on the public vulgarity, the mess produced in capitals/politics as figures that break the tyrannical consensuses of alleged economic and political elites. Even if they don’t succeed on any level, at least there is Schadenfreude for what they fuck with. This is universally relatable. 


The lack of vision is not a problem. 66 Million Brits are better off behind some fences, staying amongst themselves, perfecting traditions and folkish wisdoms. But as cartoonish as this seems… really? Orban and Co. just stumble from one set of dependencies and evil elites into larger ones: Russians, US, Chinese all waiting to pick up weaknesses and exploit them.



End of German press propaganda nonsense. My impression is that the kids are growing anti-bodies to all this nonsense. They’ll call me out on my freedom bull, fault me for not being rigorous and responsible enough, so we can guess what’ll they tell the new old right. They can get pretty loud pretty damned fast. PGC 

John Clark

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Jun 4, 2019, 7:30:36 PM6/4/19
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On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 12:47 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
> I suppose the distinction between a capitalist system is the corporations own the government, while in a socialist or communist system the government own the corporations.

There will always be concentrations of power in any society, the more there are the less likely one will be able to become totalitarian. There are lots of corporations but only one government, so given the choice i would much rather have the corporations own the government than the government own the corporations.

> I could go further, including why I am not a libertarian. I pondered that nonsense years ago. The problem is that market systems are just not stable.

Not stable compared to what? I agree the free market is inferior to a government staffed entirely by genius saints, but unfortunately such people are are rather difficult to find; I like the free market because it is self correcting even if nobody involved is a genius or a saint:   

I manufacture 99% of the worlds widgets, you make 1%. I want to drive you out of business, so I figure I'll lower my price until you go broke and then I can jack them up to anything I want. So now you lose money on each widget you sell, the trouble is I do too. I have 99 times as much money as you do, but I'm losing it 99 times faster. Even worse, because the price is very low the demand for widgets is huge, and if prices are to remain low I must build more factories (or oil wells) and increase production. I'm losing money faster and faster, meanwhile you just temporally halt production in your small factory and wait for me to go broke. It won't be a long wait.
 
 > They can collapse, and do so rather spontaneously. These can drag lots of people into misery and death. Even if you had a libertarian system without government,
 
If we were starting from scratch I would suggest Anarcho-Capitalism, I think it would be far superior to democracy, but unfortunately we are not starting from scratch and so it would be very difficult to get there from here;  but don't let the word "anarchy" scare you, it just means lack of government. Chaos necessarily implies anarchy but anarchy does not necessarily imply chaos. 

Good laws are no different from anything else, if you want to maximize something then make it a commodity and sell it on the free market. But nobody does that for laws, that's why there are far more good cars than good laws. In a world with minimal or no government Privately Produced Law (PPL) would have Private Protection Agencies (PPA's) to back them up. Disputes among PPA's would be settled by an independent arbitrator agreed to by both parties BEFORE the disagreement happened. Something like that can exist today. When companies sign complicated contracts they sometimes also agree on who will arbitrate it if differences in interpretation happen. Nobody wants to get caught up in the slow, expensive court system run by governments.

The arbitrator is paid by the case, and because he is picked by both sides, it's in his interest to be as just as possible. If he favored one side over another or made brutal or stupid decisions he would not be picked again and would need to look for a new line of work. Unlike present day judges and juries, justice would have a positive survival value for the arbitrator.

All parties would have a reason to avoid violence if possible. The disputing parties would not want to turn their front yard into a war zone, and violence is expensive. The successful protection agencies would be more interested in making money than saving face. Most of the time this would work so I expect the total level of violence to be less than in the nation state system we have now, but I'm not such a utopian as to suggest it will drop to zero. Even when force is not used the implicit threat is always there, another good reason to be civilized.

Please note that I'm not talking about justice only for the rich. If a rich man's PPA makes unreasonable demands (beatings, sidewalk justice, I insist on my mother being the judge if I get into trouble,etc) it's going to need one hell of a lot of firepower to back it up. That kind of army is expensive because of the hardware needed and because of the very high wages it will need to pay its employees for an extremely dangerous job. To pay for all this they will need to charge their clients enormous fees severely limiting their customer base and that means even higher charges. They could never get the upper hand, because the common man's PPA would be able to outspend a PPA that had outrageous demands and was just for the super rich. A yacht cost much more than a car, yet the Ford motor Company is far richer than all the yacht builders on the planet combined.

No system can guarantee justice to everybody all the time but you'd have the greatest chance of finding it in Anarcho-Capitalism. In a dictatorship one man's whim can lead to hell on earth, I don't see how 40 million Germans could have murdered 6 million Jews in a Anarcho-Capitalistic world. Things aren't much better in a Democracy, 51% can decide to kill the other 49%, nothing even close to that is possible in Anarchy, even theoretically.

In general, the desire not to be killed is much stronger than the desire to kill a stranger, even a Jewish stranger. Jews would be willing to pay as much as necessary, up to and including their entire net worth not to be killed. I doubt if even the most rabid anti Semite would go much beyond 2%. As a result the PPA protecting Jews would be much stronger than the one that wants to kill them. In Anarchy, for things that are REALLY important to you (like not getting killed) you have much more influence than just one man one vote.

I can't give you a iron clad guarantee that some Private Protection Agency won't switch from being a protector to being an oppressor, but I can't give you an iron clad guarantee that the US Army will not overthrow the government and set up a military dictatorship either. They certainly have the means to do so if they wished to. I don't think that's very likely to happen, but it's far more likely than the sort of organization I'm talking about doing it. The instant a PPA starts acting in a totalitarian way customers would abandon it, shut off its money supply and stop its cancerous growth in the bud. That is a powerful tool that we don't have today, with the US Army you are forced to keep sending it money through taxes even if you hate what it's doing.

But this is all theoretical, as I say we are such a enormously long way from Anarcho-Capitalism that it may be too late and it's just not practical to get to there from here.
 
> I can also say that I am not a lot of things that end in "ism" "ian" "anity" and so forth. These ideological scripts are to me largely nonsense.

It's easy to say that, but the fact is unless you decide to move to a desert island and never to interact with another human being again like it or not you're going to be involved in some sort of ism.
 
> I do vote in most elections, even the minor ones,

Me too. 
 
> but I largely do not so much vote for certain candidates, but against certain candidates.

Me too.  

John K Clark

Brent Meeker

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Jun 5, 2019, 1:17:35 AM6/5/19
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On 6/4/2019 4:29 PM, John Clark wrote:
If we were starting from scratch I would suggest Anarcho-Capitalism, I think it would be far superior to democracy, but unfortunately we are not starting from scratch and so it would be very difficult to get there from here;  but don't let the word "anarchy" scare you, it just means lack of government. Chaos necessarily implies anarchy but anarchy does not necessarily imply chaos. 

Capitalism assumes that one can own things, especially money.  But without government to adjudicate and enforce claims of ownership, you couldn't own any more than you could carry on your back at a dead run.   Most of the rich people in the U.S. are rich in virtue of owning stuff, not making stuff.

Brent

Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 5, 2019, 7:56:34 AM6/5/19
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These discussions have become far longer than what I want to spend time on. These types of discussions have a pernicious way of burning up time and frankly neurons. Even if a completely libertarian system were established, the corporations, banks and those at their top would pretty quickly go about forming a government to provide a platform, a coherent set of laws etc in which they could effectively conduct their commerce. Of course it would be purely plutocratic, which in ways is not terribly different from what we currently have, and with t'Rump it will go all the way full tilt into an American form of fascism. 

LC

John Clark

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Jun 5, 2019, 8:59:47 AM6/5/19
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 1:17 AM 'Brent Meeker'  <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Capitalism assumes that one can own things, especially money.  But without government to adjudicate and enforce claims of ownership, you couldn't own any more than you could carry on your back at a dead run. 

Obviously law is meaningless without enforcement, but as I explained in some detail in my previous post governments are not the only thing that can make laws or enforce them, corporations could do that too, and they would do it better than government. I am convinced that if we were starting from scratch that would be the way to go, but of course we are not starting from scratch, far from it. So at this point we must just do the best we can with what already exists. And like it or not government exists.

> Most of the rich people in the U.S. are rich in virtue of owning stuff, not making stuff.

Thanks to the tax and inheritance laws (which Trump wants to make even more extreme) most rich people in the USA are rich because they chose their parents wisely. 

 John K Clark

John Clark

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Jun 5, 2019, 9:16:03 AM6/5/19
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:56 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Even if a completely libertarian system were established, the corporations, banks and those at their top would pretty quickly go about forming a government to provide a platform, a coherent set of laws etc in which they could effectively conduct their commerce. Of course it would be purely plutocratic, which in ways is not terribly different from what we currently have,

In todays world people have no choice where they get their police protection from, they must purchase it from the government through taxes. If the police worked for profit making corporations and every person could choose which corporation to buy police protection from please explain to me how 40 million Germans could murder 6 million Jews.  

And Yes there would be disagreements between different police agencies following different laws, but I explained in my previous post how that could be resolved. Mostly.

 John K Clark


 

Telmo Menezes

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Jun 5, 2019, 9:52:05 AM6/5/19
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, at 15:16, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:56 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Even if a completely libertarian system were established, the corporations, banks and those at their top would pretty quickly go about forming a government to provide a platform, a coherent set of laws etc in which they could effectively conduct their commerce. Of course it would be purely plutocratic, which in ways is not terribly different from what we currently have,

In todays world people have no choice where they get their police protection from, they must purchase it from the government through taxes. If the police worked for profit making corporations and every person could choose which corporation to buy police protection from please explain to me how 40 million Germans could murder 6 million Jews.  

Private police organizations would have every incentive to merge and form monopolies, like corporations always try to do. Then suppose you are on the wrong side of such a monopoly...


And Yes there would be disagreements between different police agencies following different laws, but I explained in my previous post how that could be resolved. Mostly.

Corporations are AIs. In fact, they are AIs driven by a very simple utility function: profit maximization. Left to their own devices, they become an instance of Bostrom's "paperclip maximizer". We already see week versions of this taking shape, for example:

- Amazon warehouse workers peeing in bottles during their 12-hour shifts, so that some more plastic crap from China that nobody really needs can be delivered as quickly as possible, while we deplete fossil fuel reserves and destroy our own environment;

- Google and Facebook employ some of the brightest minds of our generation to figure out ways to exploit loopholes in our brain, that we are not evolved to defend again (known as supernormal stimulus), so that we collectively waste the maximum amount of our time trapped in absurdist Skinner boxes clicking on ads, so that we develop a strong enough desire to buy said crap from China. Turns out that some of the most effective supernormal stimulus also lead to Trump and Brexit, risking the destruction of institutions that took centuries to develop. In the case of the EU, flawed as it may be, it is a miracle that it was even possible, and it led to the longest period of peace in the entire History of the European continent.

Then there is the small issue of preferential attachment (aka "rich-get-richer" or Matthew effect), inexorably leading to a world where there is only one corporation that owns everything, and the rest of us are its slaves. Of course, we have been there before, and at some point heads start rolling, and back to square one we go.

If something is to be learned from the XX century, is that there is no simple solution, no silver bullet. There is only one answer: education and a constant struggle for justice and freedom, always with new challenges. The more educated people are, the more they are capable of making informed and rational choices when they vote. Education and fundamental science are not possible in a world where the utility function is pure profit.

Telmo.



 John K Clark


 


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Jun 5, 2019, 10:32:03 AM6/5/19
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 9:52 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:
 
>> If the police worked for profit making corporations and every person could choose which corporation to buy police protection from please explain to me how 40 million Germans could murder 6 million Jews.  

Private police organizations would have every incentive to merge and form monopolies,

Why would if be financially beneficial for a Private Protection Agency (PPA) that was being payed by 6 million Jews to merge with a PPA that was being payed by 40 million Germans that want to murder them? A Jew would be willing to pay whatever it took, up to and including his entire net worth, to keep from getting murdered, but I doubt if even the most rabid anti semite would pay more than 1 or 2% to murder a Jew. In anrcho-libertarianism you can have much more influence with things that are REALLY important to you than just one man one vote.

> there is no simple solution, no silver bullet. 

I agree, what I have just said is of little practical use. Yes that would be the way to go if we were starting from scratch but we are not and there is virtually no chance of getting there before a technological singularity occurs. I always knew I'd have to modify my libertarian views someday but AI has been advancing faster than I expected so I had to make the modification sooner than I expected.  We must make the best of the institutions that already exist, like government, and try to push it in the right direction. But Trump is pushing the government in the opposite direction that is needed.  

John K Clark


Telmo Menezes

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Jun 5, 2019, 11:32:50 AM6/5/19
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, at 16:32, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 9:52 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:
 
>> If the police worked for profit making corporations and every person could choose which corporation to buy police protection from please explain to me how 40 million Germans could murder 6 million Jews.  

Private police organizations would have every incentive to merge and form monopolies,

Why would if be financially beneficial for a Private Protection Agency (PPA) that was being payed by 6 million Jews to merge with a PPA that was being payed by 40 million Germans that want to murder them? A Jew would be willing to pay whatever it took, up to and including his entire net worth, to keep from getting murdered, but I doubt if even the most rabid anti semite would pay more than 1 or 2% to murder a Jew. In anrcho-libertarianism you can have much more influence with things that are REALLY important to you than just one man one vote.

I have read a version of this argument first in "The Machinery of Freedom" by David Friedman, and I found it quite compelling. I would even say that it could work, if society was forever structured by individuals and contracts between them. The problem is that rational actors qiuckly find the power of scale effects, thus corporations and corporate mergers.

Then suddenly you have one enity that can offset all the individual contributions of the people it wants to get rid of.

Consider the "war on drugs". I think we might agree that it is a collossal failure, that not only did not stop drug traffic, but it contributed to make street drugs more dangerous and destroyed countless lives with prison sentences for victimless crimes.

And yet, we can't seem to get rid of those laws. Who is lobbying for such laws to stay in the books? Private prisions, pharmaceutical companies and police sindicates.

Consider that the vast majority of people are religious. Consider how quickly you could be in the situation of the jews, through other mechanisms arising from the accumulation of power in a small number of actors.


> there is no simple solution, no silver bullet. 

I agree, what I have just said is of little practical use. Yes that would be the way to go if we were starting from scratch but we are not and there is virtually no chance of getting there before a technological singularity occurs. I always knew I'd have to modify my libertarian views someday but AI has been advancing faster than I expected so I had to make the modification sooner than I expected.  We must make the best of the institutions that already exist, like government, and try to push it in the right direction.

Ok. I entertained libertarian ideas for some time, and modified my views for the exact same reasons you state. I guess we agree after all.

But Trump is pushing the government in the opposite direction that is needed.

Indeed. Trump is Putin, but with a much lower IQ. An autocrat and a mafia boss. I hope that your republic can survive him.

Telmo.


John K Clark



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John Clark

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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 11:32 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:

> I have read a version of this argument first in "The Machinery of Freedom" by David Friedman, and I found it quite compelling.

Me too.
 
> The problem is that rational actors qiuckly find the power of scale effects, thus corporations and corporate mergers.

People greatly exaggerate the evils of corporate monopolies. Take for example the greatest monopoly of them all, Standard Oil. The company existed from 1870 to 1911 when the government forced it to break up; during those 41 years the price of kerosene, its principle product, dropped by 80%  and the purity of the kerosene greatly increased. It's interesting that every one of the people who ran crying to the government and later testified that Standard Oil's predatory tactics made competition impossible, nevertheless somehow managed to amass huge fortunes competing with Standard Oil.

Take David P Reighard for example, when Standard Oil threatened to lower the price so much that he would lose money on every gallon he sold, Reighard called their bluff, he knew Standard oil sold a lot more gallons of oil than he did, and so would lose a lot more money than he would if they tried to do that. Standard Oil realized that the only way to stop Reighard was to buy him out, which they did, at a huge profit to Reighard. What did he do with all that money? He built an even larger oil refinery of course. Standard felt they had to buy that one too, at an even larger profit to Reighard. Are you starting to  see a pattern here? In all Reighard did this 3 times before Standard caught on  and gave up, making him one of the riches men in the country.

> Consider the "war on drugs". I think we might agree that it is a collossal failure,

Yes!

> that not only did not stop drug traffic, but it contributed to make street drugs more dangerous and destroyed countless lives with prison sentences for victimless crimes.

Yes!

> And yet, we can't seem to get rid of those laws. Who is lobbying for such laws to stay in the books? Private prisions, pharmaceutical companies and police sindicates.

I've never heard that pharmaceutical companies were pushing for more draconian drug laws but I agree it's not surprising that DEA agents are strongly opposed to legalizing drugs, if it happened they'd be out of a job.
 
> Trump is Putin, but with a much lower IQ.

Yes and that is our one hope, the very stable genius may be too brain dead dumb to be able to fulfill his wish to become dictator, or better yet king.

John K Clark

Lawrence Crowell

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In the 19th century fire departments were private, and this was the case with some police departments as well. The practice was ended because in the case of fire departments sometimes the firemen would sit back and watch a structure burn because they were owned by a non-paying customer, with the result fires could spread. Private police organizations can easily become protection rackets. In the case of Germany the Friekorps and related organizations in the early 1920s were private police-like organizations that terrorized Jews and nonconformists and which demanded protection money. The Nazis loved guns and they had their 1920s hunting lodges, so the myth of the Nazis being similar to liberals who want guns laws is ludicrous. 

For the life of me I do not understand what people find attractive about libertarianism. I think there are four types of social organizations; statecraft, warcraft, priestcraft and tradecraft. :Libertarians want to eliminate statecraft, when there is no historical precedent for that. The Communists tried to eliminate tradecraft, or capitalism,.as well as priestcraft. In fact there is no historical precedent of any society that functions well which eliminates any of these. This is even warcraft, where while I would love to see John Lennon's Imagine take root, I suspect it can't and there is no historical precedent for a society without at least some minimum of that. While I do not think there is the sort of supernatural or magical reality proposed by religion, I also think some ritual practice surrounding mythic ideas will always exist in human societies.

LC 

Bruno Marchal

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On 5 Jun 2019, at 15:52, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:



On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, at 15:16, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:56 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Even if a completely libertarian system were established, the corporations, banks and those at their top would pretty quickly go about forming a government to provide a platform, a coherent set of laws etc in which they could effectively conduct their commerce. Of course it would be purely plutocratic, which in ways is not terribly different from what we currently have,

In todays world people have no choice where they get their police protection from, they must purchase it from the government through taxes. If the police worked for profit making corporations and every person could choose which corporation to buy police protection from please explain to me how 40 million Germans could murder 6 million Jews.  

Private police organizations would have every incentive to merge and form monopolies, like corporations always try to do. Then suppose you are on the wrong side of such a monopoly...


And Yes there would be disagreements between different police agencies following different laws, but I explained in my previous post how that could be resolved. Mostly.

Corporations are AIs. In fact, they are AIs driven by a very simple utility function: profit maximization. Left to their own devices, they become an instance of Bostrom's "paperclip maximizer". We already see week versions of this taking shape, for example:

- Amazon warehouse workers peeing in bottles during their 12-hour shifts, so that some more plastic crap from China that nobody really needs can be delivered as quickly as possible, while we deplete fossil fuel reserves and destroy our own environment;

- Google and Facebook employ some of the brightest minds of our generation to figure out ways to exploit loopholes in our brain, that we are not evolved to defend again (known as supernormal stimulus), so that we collectively waste the maximum amount of our time trapped in absurdist Skinner boxes clicking on ads, so that we develop a strong enough desire to buy said crap from China. Turns out that some of the most effective supernormal stimulus also lead to Trump and Brexit, risking the destruction of institutions that took centuries to develop. In the case of the EU, flawed as it may be, it is a miracle that it was even possible, and it led to the longest period of peace in the entire History of the European continent.

Then there is the small issue of preferential attachment (aka "rich-get-richer" or Matthew effect), inexorably leading to a world where there is only one corporation that owns everything, and the rest of us are its slaves. Of course, we have been there before, and at some point heads start rolling, and back to square one we go.

If something is to be learned from the XX century, is that there is no simple solution, no silver bullet. There is only one answer: education and a constant struggle for justice and freedom, always with new challenges. The more educated people are, the more they are capable of making informed and rational choices when they vote. Education and fundamental science are not possible in a world where the utility function is pure profit.


I would say: education, the rule of laws and Democracy. Separation of power, as much as possible, to be vigilant about that, all the time.

Liberal economy have good anti-monopoly laws, but there are well known technic to shortcut them, like the prohibition laws, which is handy technic to kill the competitors. Prohibition leads to extreme non regulated markets, but many form of coercions can do that.

Freedom of expression is not free-dom of defamation, on individuals and societies of all sorts.

Lies die hard. There are still some people who believe that cannabis (Hemp) is a dangerous drug justifying its interdiction, when the lies exist only since less than a century, and were very gross, denuked since day one by all independent experts, and the information is today directly available. And Cannabis is still schedule one, and illegal in most countries. 

But even that lie on cannabis are consequence of a much deeper lie which is that science and religion are separable, despite science can show that indeed a part of them are separable, but that is where the religion go in the direction of modesty and silence, and the listening to the other(s).

Fundamentally, religion is related to the mystical experience, but institutionalised religion, even with “good intentions” transform themselves into self-empowering machinery *preventing* that experience. The reason is that such an experience free you of all argument per authority. In the theology of the machines, it seems that the genuine faith cannot fear reason nor any inquiries. It is a wall destroyer. It is what Vimalakirti called the Inconceivable Freedom. It is not a “knowledge”, it is more like a reset with a remind of our abyssal ignorance. Typically, such experience were obtained for the initiation of the adulthood, and always consists getting near Death in a way or another.

But some human made money on fears, and create those fears through lies. They don’t like truth or the possible truth, of course.

Truth is when the lies die.

Bruno



Telmo.



 John K Clark


 


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Brent Meeker

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Jun 5, 2019, 4:35:55 PM6/5/19
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, at 16:32, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 9:52 AM Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:
 
>> If the police worked for profit making corporations and every person could choose which corporation to buy police protection from please explain to me how 40 million Germans could murder 6 million Jews.  

Private police organizations would have every incentive to merge and form monopolies,

Why would if be financially beneficial for a Private Protection Agency (PPA) that was being payed by 6 million Jews to merge with a PPA that was being payed by 40 million Germans that want to murder them? A Jew would be willing to pay whatever it took, up to and including his entire net worth, to keep from getting murdered, but I doubt if even the most rabid anti semite would pay more than 1 or 2% to murder a Jew.

But nobody paid him to become a rabid anti-semite.  People form values prior to putting prices on them.  So it turns out that, some places, there are lots of people who will murder jews for free...in fact they will pay to murder jews, or rhoingyas, or romas, or, immigrants, or gays, or...

Brent

Brent Meeker

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On 6/5/2019 6:15 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:56 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Even if a completely libertarian system were established, the corporations, banks and those at their top would pretty quickly go about forming a government to provide a platform, a coherent set of laws etc in which they could effectively conduct their commerce. Of course it would be purely plutocratic, which in ways is not terribly different from what we currently have,

In todays world people have no choice where they get their police protection from, they must purchase it from the government through taxes. If the police worked for profit making corporations and every person could choose which corporation to buy police protection from please explain to me how 40 million Germans could murder 6 million Jews.

About buying police aggression against your competitor/enemy?  Remember when the railroads had their own police.


 

And Yes there would be disagreements between different police agencies following different laws, but I explained in my previous post how that could be resolved. Mostly.

That would work about as well as arbitration between consumers and corporations.

Brent

John Clark

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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 4:35 PM 'Brent Meeker'  <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 
> But nobody paid him to become a rabid anti-semite. 

Historically very few anti Semites, even even rabid anti Semites,  kill Jews or pay someone to kill Jews for them unless they are part of a government.

> there are lots of people who will murder jews for free. 

There are some but not "lots", and if we're discussing the relative merits of various political systems it's irrelevant because psychos will exist in in all of them; the question is what system best protect us from them.  And I just don't see any scenario under anrcho-libertarianism were it would be possible for 40 million Germans to murder 6 million Jews. 

 John K Clark

 

Brent Meeker

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On 6/5/2019 4:53 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 4:35 PM 'Brent Meeker'  <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 
> But nobody paid him to become a rabid anti-semite. 

Historically very few anti Semites, even even rabid anti Semites,  kill Jews or pay someone to kill Jews for them unless they are part of a government.

Do you call ISIS and Hezbollah governments?  Of course under almost all governments it is illegal to kill any citizen for pay.  So to have large scale killing requires that the government at least look the other way.



> there are lots of people who will murder jews for free. 

There are some but not "lots", and if we're discussing the relative merits of various political systems it's irrelevant because psychos will exist in in all of them; the question is what system best protect us from them.  And I just don't see any scenario under anrcho-libertarianism were it would be possible for 40 million Germans to murder 6 million Jews.

That's because you can't imagine the anarcho-libertarians being persuaded the the Jews were plotting against them and were responsible for all the bad things that had happened to them and were stealing their money via banking laws, etc.  But I don't think anarcho-libertarians are, on average, more immune to racist, populist fear-mongering that other people. 

Brent

John Clark

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Jun 5, 2019, 9:04:51 PM6/5/19
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On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:15 PM 'Brent Meeker'  <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 
>Do you call ISIS and Hezbollah governments? 

They make laws, force people to pay taxes ,conscript them into their army. and give people no choice. It sure sounds like a government to me.
 
> Of course under almost all governments it is illegal to kill any citizen for pay. 

Solderers are payed by the government and so are the police, and they have both been known to kill people, sometimes on a industrial scale..
 
> I don't think anarcho-libertarians are, on average, more immune to racist, populist fear-mongering that other people. 

I don't either but the morality of anarcho-libertarians has nothing to do with it. There will be a Private Protection Agency  protecting Jews and if there is another one that is trying to kill them then the employees of both agencies will have very dangerous jobs and both will expect to be very well payed . I maintain that the agency protecting the Jews will  be much better payed  (and thus it will attract the most skilled warriors) and also they will be.much better equipped than the agency that would like to kill them  because the 6 million Jews would be willing to spend everything they have if needed for protection while the 40 million Germans would not.be willing to spend everything they had on destruction.  

Another good thing is that when its clear that the soldiers on both sides are just fighting for money then all the current crap associated with war, like glory duty and heroism , would be diminished and the job of soldiering would seem no more glorious than being a hedge fund manager on Wall Street.

John K Clark

spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 5, 2019, 9:50:24 PM6/5/19
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Lets cut to the chase folks. In the US, the rich bribe politicians who depend on millions and billions of donations from the rich or PAC's thereof. With dems you get dead-silence, when I present evidence of corporations that bribe the democrats, and the republicans gladly take goodies from the kochs. Also, the Upper Row of the US Chamber of Commerce. I call this a Plutocracy but I have no working solution for this. I just don't like the lie that both parties ARE NOT plutocrats. 


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spudb...@aol.com

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Opinion wise, I wonder if this would have killed the Great Depression, thus, at least,.halting the momentum of the national socialists and causing defections among the communists? 

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Brent Meeker

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On 6/5/2019 6:04 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:15 PM 'Brent Meeker'  <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 
>Do you call ISIS and Hezbollah governments? 

They make laws, force people to pay taxes ,conscript them into their army. and give people no choice. It sure sounds like a government to me.
 
> Of course under almost all governments it is illegal to kill any citizen for pay. 

Solderers are payed by the government and so are the police, and they have both been known to kill people, sometimes on a industrial scale..
 
> I don't think anarcho-libertarians are, on average, more immune to racist, populist fear-mongering that other people. 

I don't either but the morality of anarcho-libertarians has nothing to do with it. There will be a Private Protection Agency  protecting Jews and if there is another one that is trying to kill them then the employees of both agencies will have very dangerous jobs and both will expect to be very well payed .

Those are called armies.  So why didn't the Jews have an army?  And it's not just Jews, it's Roma, and homosexuals and atheists and guys who crossed Hitler in politics?  What you're suggesting is every man for himself.  Which of course quickly leads to forming tribes of mutual protection, which leads to city states, which leads to nations, which apparently doesn't lead to rational world government.


I maintain that the agency protecting the Jews will  be much better payed  (and thus it will attract the most skilled warriors) and also they will be.much better equipped than the agency that would like to kill them  because the 6 million Jews would be willing to spend everything they have if needed for protection while the 40 million Germans would not.be willing to spend everything they had on destruction.  

Another good thing is that when its clear that the soldiers on both sides are just fighting for money then all the current crap associated with war, like glory duty and heroism , would be diminished and the job of soldiering would seem no more glorious than being a hedge fund manager on Wall Street.

That's my main criticism of libertarianism...it assumes people are just motivated by money.  Money's only one form of power.  German soldiers were not especially well paid by the Nazis.  And why would the Russians care whether Hitler or Stalin ruled them?  Did Osama pay the 9/11 guys well?

I'm reminded of Bruno's theory that everything is computation...and so everything must be explainable in terms of computation.

Brent

Philip Thrift

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All on YouTube:

The long interviews of Ayn Rand in 1959 (w/ Mike Wallace) and 1979 (w/ Phil Donahue).

The "philosophy of libertarianism" at its "best" (or "beast").

@philipthrift

John Clark

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On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>> There will be a Private Protection Agency  protecting Jews and if there is another one that is trying to kill them then the employees of both agencies will have very dangerous jobs and both will expect to be very well payed .

> Those are called armies.  So why didn't the Jews have an army? 

The Jews didn't have an army to protect them because of government,  a government that was powerful enough to enforce its decrees, such as there can only be one army and they were the only one that could conscript men into it, and the only one that could make laws, and the only one that could collect taxers to pay for the army.

> What you're suggesting is every man for himself. 

No, I'm just suggesting if we were starting from scratch it would be better if the group one belong to was not forced and was based on more than just geographical location. I'm suggesting it would be better if people had some choice about which set of laws they would obey. Obviously the laws can't be tailor made specifically for just one individual like your "every man for himself" straw man, that would never work, but it's weird people worry so much about corporate monopolies but are oblivious to the largest monopoly of them all, the government. And if you took all the evil every corporation has ever done and concentrated it into one spot it would amount to little more than rudeness compared to the horrors committed by government; yes Facebook may not have treated the private information of its users with enough respect but at least it didn't stick them into ovens.

I'm suggesting it would have been nice of the Jews had been given some choice. In 1933 if the Nazis didn't have a monopoly on making laws collecting taxes conscripting men and forming armies I'm sure the 6 million Jews would have chosen a Private Protection Agency that  enforced a law that said you can't murder Jews. Unfortunatly the Jews couldn't do that in 1933 due to the government monopoly. 

> That's my main criticism of libertarianism...it assumes people are just motivated by money.  Money's only one form of power.  German soldiers were not especially well paid by the Nazis. 

True, they were payed little and yet Nazi soldiers fought with great bravery. Why? One reason is they'd be shot if they didn't. Another reason is that among all the other monopolies the Nazis also had a monopoly on education and the distribution of information and could therefore indoctrinate the population with crap like the importance of the Fatherland, and total obedience, and sacrifice, and courage, and martial glory.
  
> Did Osama pay the 9/11 guys well?

Yes, he promised they would each get payed 77 virgins after they performed that little task, and being religious, they fell for it.

> I'm reminded of Bruno's theory that everything is computation...and so everything must be explainable in terms of computation.

That's not the fundamental problem with Bruno's theory, it's the idea a pure number can make a calculation.

John K Clark
 

Brent Meeker

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On 6/6/2019 3:53 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>> There will be a Private Protection Agency  protecting Jews and if there is another one that is trying to kill them then the employees of both agencies will have very dangerous jobs and both will expect to be very well payed .

> Those are called armies.  So why didn't the Jews have an army? 

The Jews didn't have an army to protect them because of government,  a government that was powerful enough to enforce its decrees, such as there can only be one army and they were the only one that could conscript men into it, and the only one that could make laws, and the only one that could collect taxers to pay for the army.

And why would it be any different if the Nazi PPA decided to collect taxes from the Jews?  It would be a government powerful enough to do so.   As long as they live together in the same area they will have to have a lot of the same laws.



> What you're suggesting is every man for himself. 

No, I'm just suggesting if we were starting from scratch it would be better if the group one belong to was not forced and was based on more than just geographical location. I'm suggesting it would be better if people had some choice about which set of laws they would obey. Obviously the laws can't be tailor made specifically for just one individual like your "every man for himself" straw man, that would never work, but it's weird people worry so much about corporate monopolies but are oblivious to the largest monopoly of them all, the government.

They worry more about corporate monopolies because (1) There are not the checks and balances of our government.  The board is elected and they appoint a CEO.  The documents of incorporation, even if they say something about fairness and rights, are not overseen by any courts.  So it's effectively an oligarchy that elects a dictator.  (2) Big corporations wield more economic power and influence than many nation states, yet they are narrowly focused on making money.  They're not going to provide education or clean up the environment or provide health care.  Their officers only have a fiduciary responsibilty.  So one they can do with their economic power is capture government and thus wield both economic and military and law enforcement power.

And if you took all the evil every corporation has ever done and concentrated it into one spot it would amount to little more than rudeness compared to the horrors committed by government;

You're ignoring the role that corporations have played in supporting those governments.  Mussolini said that fascism would be better called corporatism because it was the merging of corporate and state power.


yes Facebook may not have treated the private information of its users with enough respect but at least it didn't stick them into ovens.

But Ligget and Meyers gave people lung cancer.



I'm suggesting it would have been nice of the Jews had been given some choice. In 1933 if the Nazis didn't have a monopoly on making laws collecting taxes conscripting men and forming armies I'm sure the 6 million Jews would have chosen a Private Protection Agency that  enforced a law that said you can't murder Jews. Unfortunatly the Jews couldn't do that in 1933 due to the government monopoly.

Sure.  But the Jewish PPA might have decided that it was really a good thing to kill Palestinians and take their land.



> That's my main criticism of libertarianism...it assumes people are just motivated by money.  Money's only one form of power.  German soldiers were not especially well paid by the Nazis. 

True, they were payed little and yet Nazi soldiers fought with great bravery. Why? One reason is they'd be shot if they didn't. Another reason is that among all the other monopolies the Nazis also had a monopoly on education and the distribution of information and could therefore indoctrinate the population with crap like the importance of the Fatherland, and total obedience, and sacrifice, and courage, and martial glory.

And hatred of Jews, which went back at least to Martin Luther, waaay before Hitler.  Before Germany was even a country.

Make Deutschland Great Again.

Brent

  
> Did Osama pay the 9/11 guys well?

Yes, he promised they would each get payed 77 virgins after they performed that little task, and being religious, they fell for it.

> I'm reminded of Bruno's theory that everything is computation...and so everything must be explainable in terms of computation.

That's not the fundamental problem with Bruno's theory, it's the idea a pure number can make a calculation.

John K Clark
 

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John Clark

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On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>> The Jews didn't have an army to protect them because of government,  a government that was powerful enough to enforce its decrees, such as there can only be one army and they were the only one that could conscript men into it, and the only one that could make laws, and the only one that could collect taxers to pay for the army.
 
> And why would it be any different if the Nazi PPA decided to collect taxes from the Jews? 

If only the Nazi PPA was allowed to collect taxes then it wouldn't be a PPA it would be a government. The entire point of anrcho-libertarianism is you don't pay taxes you voluntarily pay fees. It would be like deciding to join Netflix except that instead of deciding which movie you want to watch you decide which laws you want enforced. The more outrageous the law (I can do anything I want) the higher the fee would be. I maintain that the fee to enforce a law that said all Jews must be murdered would be very high and very very few of those 40 million Germans would be willing to pay it, the fee to enforce a law that said all Jews must be protected might be almost as high but all 6 million Jews would be more than willing to pay it. Therefore the pro Jew PPA would have more muscle than the anti Jew PPA.     
 
> As long as they live together in the same area they will have to have a lot of the same laws.

Why? If there is a disagreement among PPA's there are 3 ways it could be resolved:

1) By violence, but that is expensive and would reduced the PPA's profits, although if it did come to that the PPA protecting the Jews would have soldiers that were better payed and better equipped than the PPA that wants to kill them because they would have collected more money in fees. 

2) By arbitration 

3) By avoiding it from ever happening in the first place by making sure the laws you promise to enforce were not so outrageous that violent opposition was guaranteed.  
 
> They worry more about corporate monopolies because (1) There are not the checks and balances of our government. 

Checks? Like the checks the US Senate has placed to curb the outrageous behavior of the current head of the Executive branch? 

> (2) Big corporations wield more economic power and influence than many nation states,

Baloney. In terms of percentage of the Gross Domestic Product no corporation in the history of the world was larger than Standard Oil, and yet the government broke it up in 1911. And US corporations invested billions of dollars in Cuba but when Castro took over the government in 1959 he kicked them out and confiscated all their property almost immediately. Castro was even able to do the same thing with the Mafia's property because he was the head of government. The Mafia had guns but Castro had tanks.
 
> they are narrowly focused on making money. 

Yes! That's why I trust corporations much more than I trust government. If Hitler had been a CEO the board of directors would have fired him because starting World War 2 was a bad business decision that lost them a vast amount of money.

>>if you took all the evil every corporation has ever done and concentrated it into one spot it would amount to little more than rudeness compared to the horrors committed by government;

> You're ignoring the role that corporations have played in supporting those governments. 

Sure, but government gave the order and the corporations obeyed not the other way around. Supporting an atrocity is bad but not as bad as initiating it. Governments can arrange things in such a way that atrocities become profitable, something that would be impossible without government.    

> Mussolini said that fascism would be better called corporatism because it was the merging of corporate and state power.

Well yes, if you merge state power and corporate power that's just about all the power that there is, and it's all concentrated in just one place. So let's not merge them.
 
> Ligget and Meyers gave people lung cancer.

Yes but that's no secret, it's been scientifically accepted for over half a century and yet people still decide to start smoking. As a libertarian (small l) I think people have the right to kill themselves if they want to.

> But the Jewish PPA might have decided that it was really a good thing to kill Palestinians and take their land.

Who knows they might have, but if they did the results would not have been worse than what we know actually happened to the Palestinians and their land. I'm not so naive as to believe anrcho-libertarianism would eliminate all violence and injustice but I do think it would greatly reduce it.  

> hatred of Jews, which went back at least to Martin Luther, waaay before Hitler.  Before Germany was even a country.

Yes but Germany was far from unique in that regard, just look at the Dreyfus affair. If you asked somebody in 1890 to guess which country would go nuts in 50 years and murder 6 million Jews they would have probably said France not Germany. But it ended up being Germany instead because government concentrates power so much that just one crazy guy can bring on disaster, and a crazy guy happened to become head of the German government.

John K Clark

Bruno Marchal

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Jun 7, 2019, 12:54:42 PM6/7/19
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I'm reminded of Bruno's theory that everything is computation…

Just to be exact. My working hypothesis is “Indexical Digital Mechanism”. It is “YD + CT” to sum it all.

My contribution is a theorem: which says that if we assume Mechanism, it is undecidable if there is more than the additive and multiplicative structure of the natural numbers, or Turing equivalent.

But most things are not computation. The mixing of the codes of the total computable functions and the strictly partial one IS NOT computable, yet “arithmetically real” and this will have a role in the “first person indeterminacy” measure problem.

If Mechanism is true, very few things are computable, or even deducible in powerful theory. Both consciousness and matter are typically not computable, yet absolutely real, for all Lôbian machines, from their phenomenological perspective.

Every is numbers, or computations, which means we can limit the arithmetical reality to the sigma_1 sentences eventually, but that means only that the fundamental ontology is very simple. The interesting things, including god, consciousness and matter all get their meaning and laws from the phenomenological perspective.

So, to say that with mechanism, that 'everything is computation’ is a bit misleading, as the phenomenologically apprehensible things will all be non computable, and yet are *real*, as we all know.

For consciousness you need only to agree that it is

True,
Knowable,
Indubitable,
(Immediate),

And

Non-definable,
Non Rationally believable

Together with the invariance for some digital transformation at some description level.




and so everything must be explainable in terms of computation.

In terms of addition and multiplication, you can understand where consciousness come from, why it differentiates, and the transfinite paths it get involved into, and why Reality is beyond the computable, yet partially computable, partially and locally manageable, partially observable, partially and locally inductively inferable. Etc.

Even just the arithmetical reality is far beyond the computable, but from inside, the sigma_1 (ultra-mini-tniy part of that reality) is already bigger than we could hope to formalise in ZF or ZF + Large cardinal. 

Digital mechanism, well understood (meaning with understand the quasi direct link between the Church-Turing thesis and incompleteness, (which I have explained many times, but I can do it again), is constructively antireductionist theory. The Löb-Gödelian machines, those who obeys to the probability/consistency laws of Solovays (cf G and G*) can defeat any complete theory anyone could conceive about them.

Only numbers at the ontological level, OK, but the crazily interesting things appears at the phenomenological levels, where things are no more very computable at all.

Bruno



Brent

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Lawrence Crowell

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Jun 7, 2019, 8:32:57 PM6/7/19
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The situation is hopeless. I correspond with someone who is a communist, and have gotten into some arguments. The argument here, though the words are different, has much the same sort of thinking. Politics in general is a sort of brain infection that causes neuron to seize up when any cognitive dissonance occurs, and these neuron go into an overdrive with various output that has no bounds of actual reason or limits on what is preposterous. The ideological meme is "uber alles" and it is upheld for a fortress of words. Religion has this property. 

LC
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Chris de Morsella

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Jun 7, 2019, 8:59:23 PM6/7/19
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 Well said Lawrence.... I used to become pulled in to the churning (and pointless) vortex of politics, but life is far too short for that exercise in futility.

Far better to open oneself instead to the transcendent ineffable experience of the many wonders of life and of the immediate impactful experience of living life, alive with spontaneous being, than to waste endless hours in "debate".... debate that changes nothing except raising blood pressure.

Cheers,
Chris



On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 5:33 PM, Lawrence Crowell
The situation is hopeless. I correspond with someone who is a communist, and have gotten into some arguments. The argument here, though the words are different, has much the same sort of thinking. Politics in general is a sort of brain infection that causes neuron to seize up when any cognitive dissonance occurs, and these neuron go into an overdrive with various output that has no bounds of actual reason or limits on what is preposterous. The ideological meme is "uber alles" and it is upheld for a fortress of words. Religion has this property. 

LC

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:43:35 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:


On 6/6/2019 3:53 PM, John Clark wrote:
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Bruno Marchal

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Jun 8, 2019, 4:46:36 AM6/8/19
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On 8 Jun 2019, at 02:32, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

The situation is hopeless. I correspond with someone who is a communist, and have gotten into some arguments. The argument here, though the words are different, has much the same sort of thinking. Politics in general is a sort of brain infection that causes neuron to seize up when any cognitive dissonance occurs, and these neuron go into an overdrive with various output that has no bounds of actual reason or limits on what is preposterous. The ideological meme is "uber alles" and it is upheld for a fortress of words. Religion has this property. 

Fake religion has this property. Fake religion is what you obtain when you take theology out of science to mix it with the state. That gives fake religion, but also fake politics. It makes politics into a form of “religion”.

The only recent progress in the applied human science is the apparition of democracies and “universal” rule of laws. . But democracies are “living entities and can be very sick, perverted by collusion of special interests. Then political correctness install variate type of fascism back almost everywhere those days.

Bruno



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John Clark

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Jun 8, 2019, 9:12:53 AM6/8/19
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On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 8:33 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The situation is hopeless.
 
Maybe, but I sure hope you're wrong!
 
> I correspond with someone who is a communist, and have gotten into some arguments.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Communist you corresponded with was of the academic type. Even though 3 of the 4 greatest monsters of the 20th century, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot were Communist  among academics being a Communist is considered to be more respectable than being a Nazi and I have a theory as to why that is so. Academics tend to be bookish and the theoretical basis of communism as seen in "The Communist Manifesto" and "Das Kapital" may be economic nonsense but it's not obviously evil; I mean who would object to a workers paradise? In practice Communism was evil but in theory it was just stupid, however even in theory the Nazism in "Mein Kampf" with its anti-semitism and master race crap is nauseating.           
 
> Politics in general is a sort of brain infection that causes neuron to seize up when any cognitive dissonance occurs,

Like it or not politics is the way humans organize themselves, it got us into a situation where a very unstable TV gameshow host who is far FAR from being a genius (the Moon is part of Mars, vaccines cause autism) has the power to destroy civilization in half an hour on a whim because he has, among other things, the keys to a Trident Nuclear Submarine. Thousands of years of progress could be wiped out in less time than it takes to write an angry Tweet about Bette Midler or Rosie O'Donnell.

And like it or not the only thing that can get us out of this mess is yet more politics.

 John K Clark

Philip Thrift

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Jun 8, 2019, 10:05:28 AM6/8/19
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The politics is the problem meme is a Republican talking point, the utility being that if they can get people to think that all politics is bad, or all politicians are the same, then people might as well vote for Republicans, since nothing will be done anyway, so why bother voting for a (Democratic) party that proposes government-based solutions.

The make politics bad (in the thinking of the people) propaganda agenda of the Republican Party is a very successful one.

@philipthrift

spudb...@aol.com

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Jun 8, 2019, 4:58:18 PM6/8/19
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The environment which we all have lived, is a plutocracy, so unless one can contribute massive cash against one's enemies, by bribing politicians with donations, and, or, their employment after their political careers end, we end up being serfs. That doesn't mean serfs will walk away from an argument, because of a provocation, but it ensures the net effect is likely useless, except to charge up our limbic systems. It can be as good as exercise I have read.  


Alan Grayson

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Jun 12, 2019, 4:57:08 AM6/12/19
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On Saturday, June 1, 2019 at 12:43:56 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
We are weavers in the web that we wove. We are victims of this technological marvel called the media, which now includes the internet. Joseph Goebbels, propaganda minister for the third Reich, said that a lie repeated often enough assumes a life as a "sort of truth." The media has becomes a crap-fest of nonsense that pumps out half-truths and sometimes outright lies. With the massive dollars behind this industry liberality based on evidence, facts, and logic is simply drowned out in the huge decibel volume against it. Donald t'Rump knows this as much as Goebbels did, and t'Rump is a pure grifter and hustler.

LC

Lawrence, I wish you wouldn't use the term "media" so broadly, as if there aren't any objective news sources out there. I watch CNN and MSNBC regularly, and the way I see it is that their presentations are essentially objective, but negative wrt Trump because he has earned it. AG 


On Saturday, June 1, 2019 at 9:59:21 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:

[Philip Benjamin] 

Trump supporters? That is a phrase inappositely coined by America haters—i.e. the Fascist, Marxist, Socialist, Progressive, Liberal, Humanist PAGANS or WAMP-the-Ingrate, who hate the very foundations and founders of this Republic. Over 62 million adults, bona fide American citizens, surely KNEW that this was the last chance for America to be America!! It was a question of now or never. The truth will be out if the present Dept. of Justice has the guts to go ahead with an impartial investigation into the politico-deep state- media usurpation of the American government at all levels from the City/County and State to the Non-sovereign Federation of the Sovereign States of this Constitutional Republic of Lex Rex and not Rex Lex (http://constitution.org/sr/lexrex.htm). See Lex Rex of Samuel Rutherford (Presbyterian Minister). Also its high recommendation by the “Prince of Preacher” Spurgeon (Baptist Minister). American Constitution is an extension of various Church Constitutions. The Colonies already had all institutions of Freedom in place after the historical and historic First Great Awakening. No other people EVER in the annals of history did or could have ever come up with any such ideas. The Magna Carta (of “We the Nobles”), the Mayflower Compact and the Puritan Mission Statement to American Indians come close. Ignorance coupled with willful disrespect for one’s heritage as facilitated on the WAMP-erial campuses is a sure path to victory for Socialist-Marxist-Progressive PAGANISM of the types of Nordic pagan Hitler, Slavic pagan Stalin, Caucasian pagan Mussolini etc., or of the type of Celtic pagan French anarchists. https://www.wnd.com/2019/02/americas-dangerous-historical-ignorance/           

Compare it wit https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ignorance-of-history-is-no-joke/

Philip Benjamin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2019 8:11 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Allah: the One and Only Deity

 

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 3:16 AM Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

 

>> From the Catholic Encyclopedia, volume 7 page 792:
"The son of God is omniscient and omnipotent knowing history in advance and being able to control its course”.

 

> The Pope Jean-Paul 2 made explicit that all statement of that kind are parabola and should never been taken literally.

 

That's the exact same excuse Trump suporters use when they to try to explain away his many many lies.

 

> Of course, that is debated by some catholic, bu I have still never met a christian who believe in the anything as naive.

 

You sure have not met many Christians!  I have never met a Christian who didn't believe something exactly that naive. I concede there are a few that have abandoned the idea of Christianity but not the ASCII sequence C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n-i-t-y, although I have not personally met them.

 

> You might read the book by Jean Trouillard or Paul Valadier. You might change your mind on this, but perhaps you don’t want to change your mind.

 

I don't want to read their books because I see little point in reading a book written by someone who knows even less about how the world really works than I do. Life is too short to read every book ever written so one must use judgement and be selective.

 

 John K Clark

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