BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

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John Clark

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Apr 10, 2021, 7:28:03 AM4/10/21
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On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

> They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with such sonar: is the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc. Sound reflects differently from different types of surfaces. 

Yes.

> Would they feel these surface differences as colors, 

What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I SEE colors?

> or would it feel more like tactile sensations? 

What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I FEEL surfaces? The answer to both questions is a resounding NO. A particular bat senses surfaces not as you do but as a particular bat does. The only way Jason Resch Could ever know what it's like to be a particular bat would be for Jason Resch to turn into that bat, and even then he wouldn't know because then he wouldn't be Jason Resch anymore, he'd be a bat. And even a bat doesn't know what it's like to be another bat.

John K Clark

Jason Resch

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Apr 10, 2021, 11:27:16 AM4/10/21
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I agree generally with the idea that bat sonar sense could be completely alien to both our sight and our touch.

And while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which would be able to simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain states, just as our vision can simultaneously look upon two faces and compare them.

If you could be this supermind then you might be able to know what it's like to be a bat and how that's different from being John.

Jason




John K Clark

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spudb...@aol.com

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Apr 11, 2021, 2:06:17 PM4/11/21
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Alternatively, let's do a thought experiment here, a pretend. Pretend that we are neuroscientists, and that we have lots  of research cash to spend? We have computer engineers at our disposal to design devices for us. So, we attach some sort of neural probes of highly advanced design, to bats, and a receiver of the signal to humans. The bats send and the humans receive, with the help of computer technology, transceivers, and all the rest. Thus, a human learns at least somewhat, what it's like to be bat. Sending the info from Human to a Bat would likely constitute torture, so let's not do that!


Brent Meeker

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Apr 11, 2021, 2:55:37 PM4/11/21
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That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm not sure your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not able to correlate it with touch and movement.

Brent

John Clark

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Apr 12, 2021, 11:35:48 AM4/12/21
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On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

> while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which would be able to simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain states.

We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but we don't know what it's like to be an ant, and for the same reason I don't see how a Jupiter Brain could know what it's like to be one of us; and becoming more intelligent won't help because that would just make it even more different from us. 

John K Clark

Jason Resch

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Apr 12, 2021, 12:35:31 PM4/12/21
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We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but our working memories can hold on to how many facts at once? 5? 10?

An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions of connections.

So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near capable of understanding and comprehending all the structural interrelationships present in an ant brain.

A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the requisite memory and processing to hold in it's mind a comprehension of another, much simpler mind, as well as the plausible flexibility to reconfigure parts of it's own mind to generate direct experiences and extract memories comprehensible to the greater mind at large.

Jason




John K Clark

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John Clark

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Apr 12, 2021, 2:12:14 PM4/12/21
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On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:35 PM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions of connections. So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near capable of understanding and comprehending all the structural interrelationships present in an ant brain.

True, but such detail is usually not necessary, and even today we can make a pretty good prediction of the general sort of things an ant will do in a given circumstance, such as when it encounters a grain of sugar. 

> A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the requisite memory and processing to hold in it's mind a comprehension of another, much simpler mind,

Yes, if by "comprehension" you mean the ability to predict an output (also known as behavior) of a mind for any given input I agree, assuming randomness does not play a part.  But predicting how you will objectively behave it's not the same as knowing what it would subjectively be like to be you. I think being you is unique and analogies don't work in this case so being you is not subjectively "like" anything except being you. 

John K Clark

Jason Resch

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Apr 12, 2021, 2:17:17 PM4/12/21
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We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many different scenes.

Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an others-mind-sense that can know what it is like to be many different minds?

Jason



John K Clark

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John Clark

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Apr 12, 2021, 2:30:09 PM4/12/21
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On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:17 PM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

> We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many different scenes. Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an others-mind-sense that can know what it is like to be many different minds?

Because we have no sense that can detect subjectivity in anything except in ourselves. We could predict that if an ant encounter something very hot it will quickly withdraw from it, but we have no way of knowing if it experiences anything like pain. And it makes no difference how many different facts a Jupiter brain could keep in it's mine at the same time because it has no access to even one fact about the subjectivity of others, nor will it ever have one regardless of how smart it gets.

John K Clark

Jason Resch

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Apr 12, 2021, 2:49:23 PM4/12/21
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This is only an assumption of yours. How do you know there can't be quale of what it's like to be John just as we have a quale of a pixel of red in our visual field, and for a great enough mind to be able to survey a landscape of such mind-qulia?

Jason



John K Clark

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John Clark

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Apr 12, 2021, 3:25:44 PM4/12/21
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On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:49 PM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

 > How do you know there can't be quale of what it's like to be John just as we {?} have a quale of a pixel of red in our {?} visual field

What's with this "we" business? I have a quale for what red is like in my visual field but I have no idea what a red quale is like in your visual field.

> This is only an assumption of yours.

Speaking of assumptions, not only am I ignorant of what red is like for you I don't even know if you have the ability to experience red quails or any quails at all; I can assume you do but I don't know it for a fact nor will I ever know it.

John K Clark


spudb...@aol.com

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Apr 12, 2021, 4:11:52 PM4/12/21
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Boys, boys! To better answer your questions we'd need to consult neuroscientists who are involved with computing telemetry. So, who'd we consult with? Probably the peeps that are working on Elon Musk's Neural Net thing. We may never know how it feels to be one particular bat, out of billions, but we'd have a sense of what Mr. Bat is doing, and how it feels to have the wind beneath your wings, as that awful, old, song, went. If you wired me up you'd be disgusted because, "What? He's got to go pee, again!"


-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Apr 12, 2021 3:25 pm
Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

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Brent Meeker

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Apr 12, 2021, 4:14:36 PM4/12/21
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On 4/12/2021 11:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 1:12 PM John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:35 PM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions of connections. So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near capable of understanding and comprehending all the structural interrelationships present in an ant brain.

True, but such detail is usually not necessary, and even today we can make a pretty good prediction of the general sort of things an ant will do in a given circumstance, such as when it encounters a grain of sugar. 

> A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the requisite memory and processing to hold in it's mind a comprehension of another, much simpler mind,

Yes, if by "comprehension" you mean the ability to predict an output (also known as behavior) of a mind for any given input I agree, assuming randomness does not play a part.  But predicting how you will objectively behave it's not the same as knowing what it would subjectively be like to be you. I think being you is unique and analogies don't work in this case so being you is not subjectively "like" anything except being you. 


We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many different scenes.

Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an others-mind-sense that can know what it is like to be many different minds?

I think that's just a more speculative version of the "Mary the color-blind neuroscientist" puzzle.  In Mary's case we know she has a brain that could experience color, she just doesn't have the sensors and therefore not the experience.  Can she never the less understand the experience and know what it is like to see color?  I think it is possibly so.

Brent

Bruno Marchal

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Apr 14, 2021, 6:22:29 AM4/14/21
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On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm not sure your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not able to correlate it with touch and movement.

Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist substation level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat neuronal system; some would say that we have to simulate also the glial cells, some would ask for the simulation of the microtubules, etc.

Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.

Bruno




Brent Meeker

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Apr 14, 2021, 2:41:14 PM4/14/21
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On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm not sure your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not able to correlate it with touch and movement.

Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist substation level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat neuronal system; some would say that we have to simulate also the glial cells, some would ask for the simulation of the microtubules, etc.

Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.

I would agree if you mean "know with certainty".  But clearly we have pretty good ideas about how other people feel simply by projecting our own feelings while imagining their situation.

Brent

Jason Resch

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Apr 14, 2021, 3:36:54 PM4/14/21
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I was surprised by this recent finding, that people who grow up in different cultures with different words (or lack of words) for different colors, actually appear to perceive colors differently. They take more time to pick up on color differences, for example:


Jason 

Brent Meeker

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Apr 14, 2021, 5:06:57 PM4/14/21
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I wonder why Evans hasn't tested his prediction that Russian speakers would be better at distinguishing shades of blue?  Surely there are plenty of Russian speakers available, even in England.

Brent

Bruno Marchal

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Apr 15, 2021, 7:15:55 AM4/15/21
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On 12 Apr 2021, at 18:35, Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:35 AM John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

> while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which would be able to simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain states.

We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but we don't know what it's like to be an ant, and for the same reason I don't see how a Jupiter Brain could know what it's like to be one of us; and becoming more intelligent won't help because that would just make it even more different from us. 

We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but our working memories can hold on to how many facts at once? 5? 10?

An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions of connections.

So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near capable of understanding and comprehending all the structural interrelationships present in an ant brain.

A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the requisite memory and processing to hold in it's mind a comprehension of another, much simpler mind, as well as the plausible flexibility to reconfigure parts of it's own mind to generate direct experiences and extract memories comprehensible to the greater mind at large.


I agree that humans are more competent than ants, but I am not sure about its emotional-intelligence. 

But I agree with your conclusion. We can have do two dreams at once, and realise it after awakening, and we can’t exclude we might have arithmetical continuation capable of handling a finite or even an infinite number of streams.

The arithmetical reality is, among other things, an infinite processing machinery, after all. It is an open problem. 

Bruno




Jason




John K Clark


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Bruno Marchal

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Apr 15, 2021, 7:22:12 AM4/15/21
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On 12 Apr 2021, at 22:11, spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Boys, boys! To better answer your questions we'd need to consult neuroscientists


In this case, Louis Jouvet has given evidences that we can wake up with the memory of two separate independent consciousness stream. I have done this about 4 times. Louis Jouvet explains this by the fact that the brain can be active (like in dreams) but with the corpus callosum still sleepy/inhibited. That helps to conceive that some arithmetical continuation can remember many streams.

The problem is that we don’t know who we are.



who are involved with computing telemetry. So, who'd we consult with? Probably the peeps that are working on Elon Musk's Neural Net thing. We may never know how it feels to be one particular bat, out of billions, but we'd have a sense of what Mr. Bat is doing, and how it feels to have the wind beneath your wings, as that awful, old, song, went. If you wired me up you'd be disgusted because, "What? He's got to go pee, again!”

If we remember an experience, it will remain hard to interpret it as being correct. We might be able to know what is like to be a bat, but we can never be sure that it is “correct”. We can know, but we cannot know-for-sure.

Bruno





-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com>
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Apr 12, 2021 3:25 pm
Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:49 PM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

 > How do you know there can't be quale of what it's like to be John just as we {?} have a quale of a pixel of red in our {?} visual field

What's with this "we" business? I have a quale for what red is like in my visual field but I have no idea what a red quale is like in your visual field.

> This is only an assumption of yours.

Speaking of assumptions, not only am I ignorant of what red is like for you I don't even know if you have the ability to experience red quails or any quails at all; I can assume you do but I don't know it for a fact nor will I ever know it.

John K Clark


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Bruno Marchal

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Apr 15, 2021, 7:25:36 AM4/15/21
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On 14 Apr 2021, at 20:41, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm not sure your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not able to correlate it with touch and movement.

Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist substation level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat neuronal system; some would say that we have to simulate also the glial cells, some would ask for the simulation of the microtubules, etc.

Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.

I would agree if you mean "know with certainty”. 

You are right. I should have made clear, like I just did actually, that the notion of “knowing” was “knowing for sure”.

It is more []p & <>t & p than []p & p, although even " []p & <>t & p” might not yet capture completely the “for dure” components.


But clearly we have pretty good ideas about how other people feel simply by projecting our own feelings while imagining their situation.

OK.

Bruno



Brent

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spudb...@aol.com

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Apr 15, 2021, 10:40:25 PM4/15/21
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Well the bat cannot no because Mr. Bat didn't have humans and machine to invent neural nets to provide connectivity at high band width and at a low price? The more humans link into loops (potentially) the more the weaker willed will be absorbed to those with a "Triumph of the Will," and become effectual zombies. This may have occurred at least once before I have heard? 


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