Real-time chat replacement

[Alon Zakai]

Hi everyone,

In around a month Mozilla will remove the irc.mozilla.org IRC server we've been using for #emscripten. So we need another option for real-time discussion.

One option is discord, where the wasm community has been gathering, and there's already an #emscripten room there that someone set up,

https://discordapp.com/channels/453584038356058112/590215642444202044 (docs PR: https://github.com/emscripten-core/emscripten/pull/10165)

I don't particularly have an opinion between the options in this space. Discord seems reasonable to go with for now since as I said it's already used by wasm in general which obviously overlaps with emscripten users quite a lot. But if there's interest, perhaps we could also set up a bridge to other places people want, or consider other options.

Thoughts?

- Alon

[Beuc]

Hi,

AFAIK there is no usable free/open source client for Discord, offline notifications are days-delayed, and users have to accept their ToS with the usual abusive clauses.

- Beuc

[Marco Ippolito]

Slack can be a viable option?

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[J Decker]

I like gitter - it supports most of github markdown including like tables... works like discord minus the voice; can edit and delete previous messages that gets updated other places... [gitter](http://gittter.im)

Or come over to irc.freenode.net :) 

It's also open, unlike slack that requires a invitation to loop back to you to get into a channel, and then every channel you join requires a whole new connection, well it's more like discord... but also more open.

Can use github account to login....

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[Lorn Potter]

On 16/1/20 4:57 PM, J Decker wrote:

> Or come over to irc.freenode.net <http://irc.freenode.net> :)
+1


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Lorn Potter
Freelance Qt Developer. Maintainer QtSensors, Qt WebAssembly

[Shlomi Fish]

Hi Alon,

I dislike discord's web UI because it keeps emitting beeps and the
"servers"/chatrooms multiplicity is confusing. I also don't like slack too much.
I like freenode for IRC and also use the telegram desktop client.

> - Alon
>



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[Sam Clegg]

FWIW I think mozilla switched to https://matrix.org/.

But LLVM and WebAssembly are both on discord now.     Since a lot of us also work on those projects I (personally) think discord makes sense for now.

This might be a case of Alon having to make an DBFL decision because it unlikey people we agree here.

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[Alon Zakai]

I definitely get that there are a lot of reasonable opinions on this. I honestly agree with most of the opinions (I wish discord were more open, for example), and I don't have a strong preference myself.

But I think this is bigger than this project - as Sam said, the WebAssembly community has been using discord, and I think it would take an extremely strong reason for us to not continue with them there. This is sort of like github - I agree with the arguments against using it (not fully open, too centralized, policy issues, etc.) but in the end that's where the community is, so for most projects it's the place that is easiest and takes the least effort - in this case, almost no effort, as the wasm community already uses that discord and even has an #emscripten room.

(I didn't know LLVM also uses discord - that's even more reason, then.)

If people want to experiment with a bridge from discord to IRC or something like that, I'd be interested to see that happen!

- Alon

[Beuc]

Independently of the topic per se, I wish I didn't see herd mentality as a decision basis in a R&D project - hurts my feelings.

Cheers!
Beuc

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[Shlomi Fish]

Hi Beuc and all!

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:35:43 +0100
Beuc <be...@beuc.net> wrote:

> Independently of the topic /per se/, I wish I didn't see herd mentality

> as a decision basis in a R&D project - hurts my feelings.
>

I'd like to note that I agree with Beuc's sentiment about the herd mentality.

Regards,

Shlomi

> Cheers!
> Beuc

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[Alon Zakai]

I agree with what I think is the underlying point about "herd mentality" - that network effects drive a lot of things in software. I wish they didn't!

But to clarify, I'm not saying "other projects are doing something, so we should too". I'm also not saying "other projects use X, so it's probably good." I am saying that the WebAssembly community picking Discord has consequences for us: We overlap with them, and the more communication the better for all of us.

Also, this discussion is happening not because we planned to spend time on it, but because Mozilla is shutting down the server soon. The old room is going away, and the wasm community has an already-useful #emscripten channel, so it seems reasonable to go with that. But, as I said earlier, if someone is interested to investigate other options, I'm definitely not opposed to that (I just don't have time myself - there's a lot of other stuff going on!).

- Alon

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[Hostile Fork]

In around a month Mozilla will remove the irc.mozilla.org IRC server we've been using for #emscripten. So we need another option for real-time discussion.

One option is discord, where the wasm community has been gathering, and there's already an #emscripten room there that someone set up,

(...)

Thoughts?

I have followed this mailing list, but not the chat--wasn't aware of it!  Regardless, my $0.25 (inflation): I feel switching to a closed-source (or otherwise centrally controlled option) would be a step backward from IRC.  If the technorati are to be role models and making any kind of stand for the future, there must be a push past the captive mentality of "trusting some guy's website".  Decentralized platforms like matrix.org won't have a chance unless we give them that chance.

Having tried out Discord (for the mentioned WebAssembly group, was quiet when I was there) and Slack, I strongly oppose usage of either.  For a service this simple, inviting middlemen into the picture is anything but future-proof.

It's a lot of deja-vu all over again.  Recently I'm having to look into other chat options for my group.  We'd rather liked StackOverflow's chat feature, and had been using it for a decade.  But times change; the SO of today is not the one we knew then.  Recent events there have eroded trust beyond repair: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/342039/firing-community-managers-stack-exchange-is-not-interested-in-cooperating

Hence I'd like to see matrix.org ...or if that seems too avant-garde for some reason, then irc.freenode.net seems a low-effort change.

--Brian

P.S. I always thought the following talk was good to remind one of the stakes, James Vasile on FreedomBox:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bDDUyJSQ9s

[Alon Zakai]

I agree!

A bunch of us are using the #emscripten room on discord together with the larger WebAssembly community, but like you I'd prefer to see something more open in use. So if someone wants to set up a room on matrix or freenode that would be great! There's no reason to have just one location, and we can document all the options equally.

- Alon

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[キャロウ マーク]

On Feb 17, 2020, at 3:27, Hostile Fork <hosti...@gmail.com> wrote:

If the technorati are to be role models and making any kind of stand for the future, there must be a push past the captive mentality of "trusting some guy's website".  Decentralized platforms like matrix.org won't have a chance unless we give them that chance.

+10

[Nolan Darilek]

I think you can actually bridge a Matrix room to Discord, though it likely requires consent from the server owner, and may or may not involve running a Discord bridge. I know there are some public bridges, though I don't know if Discord is among them.

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[Sam Clegg]

Happy to try a matic (riot.im) channel too.  Looks like they do have some kind of discord bridge: https://matrix.org/bridges/#discord

Can someone volunteer to set it up and we can add it to the docs?

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