Send triggers placed into middle of the sentences
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Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
Sep 27, 2021, 7:34:08 AM9/27/21
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Hi,
I am planning a task about semantic and syntatic processing. Besides, the half of the sentences have to be semantically and syntatically corrected or incorrected.
For example:
The boy is talking <--(tigger for congruent condition) with his mother
The boy is talk <-- (trigger for incongruent condition ) with his mother
How have I set up the List Object to display the sentences on the screen and send the triggers to another software (brain vision). I want to mark triggers at the middle. not at the onset of the sentences.
Thanks!
Esteban
David McFarlane
Sep 27, 2021, 4:03:18 PM9/27/21
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Esteban,
First I would want to know the delay from the start of each audio file
to the time of the desired signal/trigger/marker. Then I would add a
column (i.e., attribute) in my List for that delay -- let's call it
TriggerDelay. Then I would add a Task Event to the object that presents
the sound, based on the OnsetTime of the sound, and I would add
TriggerDelay as an attribute reference (e.g., [TriggerDelay]) to the
Delay field of the Task Event. Finally, as discussed in several other
threads here, I would add another Task Event somewhere to reset the
signal to 0 -- maybe do that at the OnsetTime of the next object, or do
that at the OnsetTime of whatever object comes before the object that
presents the sound; actually, in this particular case you could probably
get away with doing the reset at the OnsetTime of your sound-presenting
object.
-- David McFarlane
On 2021-09-27 Mon 7:34 AM, Esteban Sarrias Arrabal wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am planning a task about semantic and syntatic processing. Besides,
> the half of the sentences have to be semantically and syntatically
> corrected or incorrected.
>
> For example:
>
> The boy is *talking* <--(tigger for congruent condition) with his mother
>
> The boy is *talk* <-- (trigger for incongruent condition ) with his mother
First I would want to know the delay from the start of each audio file
to the time of the desired signal/trigger/marker. Then I would add a
column (i.e., attribute) in my List for that delay -- let's call it
TriggerDelay. Then I would add a Task Event to the object that presents
the sound, based on the OnsetTime of the sound, and I would add
TriggerDelay as an attribute reference (e.g., [TriggerDelay]) to the
Delay field of the Task Event. Finally, as discussed in several other
threads here, I would add another Task Event somewhere to reset the
signal to 0 -- maybe do that at the OnsetTime of the next object, or do
that at the OnsetTime of whatever object comes before the object that
presents the sound; actually, in this particular case you could probably
get away with doing the reset at the OnsetTime of your sound-presenting
object.
-- David McFarlane
On 2021-09-27 Mon 7:34 AM, Esteban Sarrias Arrabal wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am planning a task about semantic and syntatic processing. Besides,
> the half of the sentences have to be semantically and syntatically
> corrected or incorrected.
>
> For example:
>
>
> The boy is *talk* <-- (trigger for incongruent condition ) with his mother
Spape, Michiel
Sep 27, 2021, 6:56:35 PM9/27/21
to e-p...@googlegroups.com
Hi Esteban,
Here's some additional pointers:
* Like David said, but for an extra visual introduction, here's a blog post on task events: http://cognitology.eu/?p=102 specifically regarding EEG.
* If indeed you're doing EEG and language processing, a word of advice: you may want to be a bit more strategic about 'showing a sentence on a screen' and looking at the effect of incongruent verbs (a P600?). That is, it takes a couple of saccades to read any of the sentences you mentioned, but the P600 is presumably locked to the verb, right? Therefore, it might be better if you show words sequentially, such that the trigger is sent time-locked to the onset of the incongruent word - otherwise, if you have any longer sentences with unexpected/ungrammatical closure effects, the evoked response will be delayed. Likewise with slow readers like myself :)
Best,
Michiel
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Here's some additional pointers:
* Like David said, but for an extra visual introduction, here's a blog post on task events: http://cognitology.eu/?p=102 specifically regarding EEG.
* If indeed you're doing EEG and language processing, a word of advice: you may want to be a bit more strategic about 'showing a sentence on a screen' and looking at the effect of incongruent verbs (a P600?). That is, it takes a couple of saccades to read any of the sentences you mentioned, but the P600 is presumably locked to the verb, right? Therefore, it might be better if you show words sequentially, such that the trigger is sent time-locked to the onset of the incongruent word - otherwise, if you have any longer sentences with unexpected/ungrammatical closure effects, the evoked response will be delayed. Likewise with slow readers like myself :)
Best,
Michiel
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Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
Sep 28, 2021, 4:30:41 AM9/28/21
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Dear David,
Thanks a lot for your help. I see so clearly what I have to do.
Best wishes,
Esteban
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Dr. Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
Departamento Psicología Experimental
Unidad de Psicofisiología Humana
Departamento Psicología Experimental
Unidad de Psicofisiología Humana
Dr. Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
Department of Experimental Psychology
Unit of Human Psychophysiology
Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
Sep 28, 2021, 4:46:56 AM9/28/21
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Hi, Michiel.
Thanks a lot, trully!
In my project we are going to analyze the EEG activity related to language processing, specifically ERPs (ELAN, N400 and P600), in children with cromosophaties (ranging from 5 to 9 years old). The issue is that these children can´t read. Therefore, all verbal stimuli will be present auditively. Besides, we are going to present visual stimuli in order for children to keep focused on the task while the experiment is running. In this case, we will show pictures that can be congruent or incongruent with auditory stimuli (sentences).
For example:
The boy is jumping (auditory sentence) and at the same time a picture that show a seated boy (incongruent condition)
The boy is jumping (auditory sentence) and at the same time a picture that show a boy jumping (congruent condition)
In this case, I think that the trigger can be the picture locking activity related to congruent(incongruent information.
In this example, would you present the sentences sequentially too?
Best Regards,
Esteban
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Spape, Michiel
Sep 28, 2021, 5:31:31 AM9/28/21
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Hi Esteban,
Apologies, I should have read better about you were planning to do this auditorily! Sounds like a really interesting study, though.
Yes, so in this case it would be best to look up exactly the onset of each audio files incongruent word (e.g. in CoolEdit) and put that in the attributes as described by David. Note that prerelease of the critical stimulus should be set to 0 – otherwise (if memory serves) the triggers are not actually sent as E-Prime will be busy with the next stimulus preprocessing. If you have a limited number of stimuli, I’d also send out a trigger at the start of each sentence with a code for each separate audio file so you will always know afterwards what exactly is sent. Easiest, however, for EEG analysis is having everything together in a bunch, so let’s say you have a picture (X: number 1-99), an audio file (Y: number 100-199), and the congruent/incongruent stimulus at a certain delay (time Z). Something like this might work:
At audio onset + delay Z, send 250 for congruent and 251 for incongruent.
At audio onset + delay Z + 10, send 0
At audio onset + delay Z + 20, send X
At audio onset + delay Z + 30, send 0
At audio onset + delay Z + 40, send Y
At audio onset + delay Z + 50, send 0
Now, even after epoching, and time-locking to 250 or 251 in brain vision analyzer or eeglab or such, you will retain all information regarding the stimulus. For it to work in E-Prime, you’d need something like 7 attributes:
[sentence] [sentencetrigger] [sentencecongruence] [sentencecongruencetrigger] [sentencewordonset] [picture] [picturetrigger]
[sentence] being the audiofile, [sentencetrigger] the corresponding trigger, [sentencecongruence] being congruent or incongruent, [sentencecongruencetrigger] being 250 or 251, [sentencewordonset] being Z above, [picture] being the picture filename, [picturetrigger] being its corresponding trigger.
And a little inline at the beginning of the trial:
c.setattrib “zplus10”, c.getattrib (“sentencewordonset”) + 10
c.setattrib “zplus20”, c.getattrib (“sentencewordonset”) + 20
…and so on.
The audio/slide onset can then use task events:
the first, delay: [sentencewordonset] and trigger: [sentencecongruencetrigger]
the second, delay: [zplus10] and trigger: 0
…and so on.
Hope that helps. Tips like this for E-Prime, OpenSesame, and MATLAB, not to mention ridiculous stories from my life and as an EEG researcher, see “A Psychologist's guide to EEG: The electric study of the mind” – out November with SAGE.
Best,
Michiel
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/e-prime/CAAXnmV_g09A4wFxvK%3DdzNNfyb3j3aM4m1SShWG89u4a8kajMuQ%40mail.gmail.com.
David McFarlane
Sep 28, 2021, 9:55:47 AM9/28/21
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Weighing in regarding PreRelease & Task Events -- You should be able to
use PreRelease without affecting the output of Task Events. In fact, I
think that you could even delay a Task Event to occur during a later
object. I expect that Task Events get added to an event loop that gets
run under the hood during whatever other processing is going on at the
the time, at least that is how I would implement it (and I have written
software down at that level).
But as always you should test this yourself and not take my word for
this. Or just follow Michiel's advice to set PreRelease to 0 and then
not worry about it.
Best,
-- David McFarlane
> *From:*e-p...@googlegroups.com <e-p...@googlegroups.com> *On Behalf Of
> *Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
> *Sent:* 28 September 2021 11:47
> *To:* e-p...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: Send triggers placed into middle of the sentences
> <mailto:e-prime%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/e-prime/HE1PR07MB43461C34EBB3FD488A506C00FAA79*40HE1PR07MB4346.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com__;JQ!!HXCxUKc!nQf65pG1T5ed5WKfvLcSAAVQibeTNm_BWz3vGwp5T79GsbpbW80G7fmbjRT-Z5re$>.
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use PreRelease without affecting the output of Task Events. In fact, I
think that you could even delay a Task Event to occur during a later
object. I expect that Task Events get added to an event loop that gets
run under the hood during whatever other processing is going on at the
the time, at least that is how I would implement it (and I have written
software down at that level).
But as always you should test this yourself and not take my word for
this. Or just follow Michiel's advice to set PreRelease to 0 and then
not worry about it.
Best,
-- David McFarlane
> *Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
> *Sent:* 28 September 2021 11:47
> *To:* e-p...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: Send triggers placed into middle of the sentences
>
> Hi, Michiel.
>
> Thanks a lot, trully!
>
> In my project we are going to analyze the EEG activity related to
> language processing, specifically ERPs (ELAN, N400 and P600), in
> children with cromosophaties (ranging from 5 to 9 years old). The issue
> is that these children can´t read. Therefore, all verbal stimuli will be
> present auditively. Besides, we are going to present visual stimuli in
> order for children to keep focused on the task while the experiment is
> running. In this case, we will show pictures that can be congruent or
> incongruent with auditory stimuli (sentences).
>
> For example:
>
> The boy is jumping (auditory sentence) and at the same time a picture
> that show a seated boy (incongruent condition)
>
> The boy is jumping (auditory sentence) and at the same time a picture
> that show a boy jumping (congruent condition)
>
> In this case, I think that the trigger can be the picture locking
> activity related to congruent(incongruent information.
>
> In this example, would you present the sentences sequentially too?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Esteban
>
> El mar, 28 sept 2021 a las 0:56, Spape, Michiel
> (<michie...@helsinki.fi <mailto:michie...@helsinki.fi>>) escribió:
> Hi, Michiel.
>
> Thanks a lot, trully!
>
> In my project we are going to analyze the EEG activity related to
> language processing, specifically ERPs (ELAN, N400 and P600), in
> children with cromosophaties (ranging from 5 to 9 years old). The issue
> is that these children can´t read. Therefore, all verbal stimuli will be
> present auditively. Besides, we are going to present visual stimuli in
> order for children to keep focused on the task while the experiment is
> running. In this case, we will show pictures that can be congruent or
> incongruent with auditory stimuli (sentences).
>
> For example:
>
> The boy is jumping (auditory sentence) and at the same time a picture
> that show a seated boy (incongruent condition)
>
> The boy is jumping (auditory sentence) and at the same time a picture
> that show a boy jumping (congruent condition)
>
> In this case, I think that the trigger can be the picture locking
> activity related to congruent(incongruent information.
>
> In this example, would you present the sentences sequentially too?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Esteban
>
> El mar, 28 sept 2021 a las 0:56, Spape, Michiel
>
> Hi Esteban,
> Here's some additional pointers:
> * Like David said, but for an extra visual introduction, here's a
> blog post on task events: http://cognitology.eu/?p=102
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://cognitology.eu/?p=102__;!!HXCxUKc!nQf65pG1T5ed5WKfvLcSAAVQibeTNm_BWz3vGwp5T79GsbpbW80G7fmbjTbDVbbb$>
> Hi Esteban,
> Here's some additional pointers:
> * Like David said, but for an extra visual introduction, here's a
> blog post on task events: http://cognitology.eu/?p=102
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/e-prime/b1ba1a81-4bf1-c20c-6c4e-1af1f18523a8%40msu.edu
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/e-prime/b1ba1a81-4bf1-c20c-6c4e-1af1f18523a8*40msu.edu__;JQ!!HXCxUKc!nQf65pG1T5ed5WKfvLcSAAVQibeTNm_BWz3vGwp5T79GsbpbW80G7fmbjQUIBDx7$>.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/e-prime/b1ba1a81-4bf1-c20c-6c4e-1af1f18523a8%40msu.edu
>
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> --
>
> Dr. Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
> Departamento Psicología Experimental
> Unidad de Psicofisiología Humana
>
> Dr. Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
>
> Department of Experimental Psychology
>
> Unit of Human Psychophysiology
>
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>
> Dr. Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
> Departamento Psicología Experimental
> Unidad de Psicofisiología Humana
>
> Dr. Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
>
> Department of Experimental Psychology
>
> Unit of Human Psychophysiology
>
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Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
Oct 4, 2021, 3:57:18 AM10/4/21
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Dear Michiel,
Thanks so much for your help. I owe you.
Best wishes,
Esteban
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/e-prime/HE1PR07MB4346A8651C83CA20E3A7E7FCFAA89%40HE1PR07MB4346.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com.
Esteban Sarrias Arrabal
Oct 4, 2021, 3:58:15 AM10/4/21
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Dear David.
Thanks for your help. It has been very helpful.
Best wishes.
Esteban
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