cms web buyilding

[ngangsia akumbo]

I was having an augment about learning how to code from scratch and using content management systems like joomla, dupal to build websites.

This guy was telling they can make any web application using Joomla the the other cms out there.

He does not need to learn coding.

so if that was possible why do people still learn how to code from scratch?

So i need to get your opinion about this?

[Bob Gailer]

Go to the joomla site and see what you think.

Bob gailer

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[Lee]

Most cms' of that ilk fits a very specific set of needs. Once you need to move outside the mould they give you and need to customise it for a specific business requirement, without some level of understanding of coding and the chosen cms' underpinnings he'll find it very difficult to proceed any further. This is one of the reasons than you see many cms sites based on those platforms that look exactly the same, there are a lot of poor quality web debs out there.

But you don't need to reason with him on his abilities. You do what is right for you and if you put the effort in, you'll end up a far more useful resource than he ever will with that mindset

[amirouche...@gmail.com]

Easy answer is performance lookup "wordpress (farms OR performance)"

Another answer is that if you know the langage it s easier to fully learn a framework than learn a cms. A cms must have something like a framework put together inside the website engine. More sloc means more things to read and understand.

So learning a fw is easier and you get more power out of it, even if you have no ready to eye shoot nice pixels put together in a browser.

You get a similar coding experience as using a cms using Django admin to build a web engine, I'm still not convinced that current dj admin is the best tool for high quality craft.

Also most python fw and especially djanjo have a lot of plugins/extension which evenif they don t always attract the hurry client satisfy the smart coder.

HTH

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[amirouche...@gmail.com]

À Sat Aug 16 2014 12:04:20 GMT+0200 (CEST), ngangsia akumbo a écrit :

[Amirouche Boubekki]

Reading my answer on a desktop computer, doesn't inspire me much. So I rewrite here... Sorry for the triple post...

2014-08-16 18:59 GMT+02:00 <amirouche...@gmail.com>:

À Sat Aug 16 2014 12:04:20 GMT+0200 (CEST), ngangsia akumbo a écrit :

> I was having an argument about learning how to code from scratch and using

> content management systems like joomla, dupal to build websites.

I sum up this as:

> Learn a language by building something on top a CMS like joomla, drupal or django cms, amstrong...

- This is one way maybe one of the best way. It's among the few recommendation I remember from university [1], it was basically was «get pixels in the browser quickly». Doing TDD would be best. This is the idea behind dynamic languages and their REPL.

[1] another one is «WTF is NP & P. What matters are numbers!»

- It is basically a copy/pasting code from cookbook and making them do the right thing cf. https://djangosnippets.org/ that's how I build my first enduser application (somekind of a social network) ten years ago in with PHP and mysql, way before any kind of computer science curriculum or webmaster course.

- The good thing is that you have clear entry point to modify the behavior of the vanilla application. Those entry points are higher level: «add an item to the menu», «add item into the overview div»...  When you start from scratch with only a framework you might stare blankly into an elite IDE without much inspiration, because you can start from many places: views, models, templates and how they interact make the number of possible application manyfolds. Most of the time I start with models, then create html mockup pages then glue them together with views.

- You can get lost about what kind of application you can do, since you can do much more with a framework with the same coding level.

Only downside is that with a framework you start with a lot of code to read «ark! there is an infinite recursion somewhere!», but this will help later. I understand more quickly code than dozens of examples use of some class.

A ready made CMS, can also be used to do «gunshot coding» which basicly boils down to turn working code to crap code and getting back a new code that does something you want to do. Can also be understood as «copy & paste then fix it»

 

>
> This guy was telling they can make any web application using Joomla the the
> other cms out there.
> He does not need to learn coding.

Yes. Most of my early application that me and my friend were using were just hacks of SPIP (ready made CMS for hacks) or wordpress, phpbb, dotclear...

 

> so if that was possible why do people still learn how to code from scratch?

Performance and sustainability. Depending on what you do, you might not need to learn to code. How many stories I ear by friends and family of the kevin next door getting dozen bucks a month for installing and configuring one of the other of the ready made solutions.

Usually, python people are not interested by performance, but are glad to have a perfect backend that can serve multiple devices with the same code. Does phpbb allow to retrieve the list of incoming message in JSON compatible with a ready made twitter client...

Or a perfect {{ name-the-application-of-the-kevin-next-door }} user experience which needs specific models, views and templates?

Or a CMS with hand crafted backends (and frontends ;) for every job in the entreprise without taking too much time to answer?

 

>
> So i need to get your opinion about this?
>

I don't know the state of the art in PHP, maybe they are framework that have what Django (and other python framework) have:

- python language

- cookbook and books

- several cms on top of it
- plugin system with numerous plugins freely available

With the above you get almost all of what Drupal has, plus what I never found in the documentation, its «internals» aka. the framework part of drupal, which at the end of the day, is for people that want to get serious things done, is more interesting for the craft than yet another forum.

[ngangsia akumbo]

then if drupal , jomlam has what django has then why are u building app with django, that requires much coding?

[Lee]

Did you even read the replies you already received? I can't help but think you are trolling this board and on that basis, this'll be the last time I respond to any of your questions.

[ngangsia akumbo]

sorry my friend . 

[Amirouche Boubekki]

2014-08-18 10:00 GMT+02:00 ngangsia akumbo <ngan...@gmail.com>:

then if drupal , jomlam has what django has then why are u building app with django, that requires much coding?

That's the point, django admin and a good "plugin" flora (called «django applications» in Django noosphère) you don't need to code much to build

very different kind of apps. Whereas if you start with a CMS (even a Django CMS) you will have to follow the path of the CMS

which might be good to learn or to prototype an application but isn't always the best solution as a software developer.

I think there is a difference between the old days «webmaster» and today «developer». Not all «webmaster» became «developer». The people you are describing «tweaking a CMS» looks more like a «webmaster» than a «developer».

A developer must be able to write any kind of app, not only Content Management Systems, but also applications like twitter, facebook, GNU MediaGoblin, a plugin system inside it's own project etc... but also take one week to read all the documentation and code of a given framework.

I'm pretty sure that if you do a comparison of django CMS and PHP CMS in the wild, you would find that they are much more PHP CMS than Django CMS normalized to the number of developpers. This is not because Django or Python is not popular (since it is normalized to the number of developpers), but because Python people prefer to build their own application and take advantage of other Django applications instead of «hijacking» a CMS.

I'm not saying that webmaster don't help the craft, I say that they have different skills and do different jobs.

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-users/6ff850d1-ee32-49d9-84d1-d38671c9f85b%40googlegroups.com.

[Tom Evans]

On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:00 AM, ngangsia akumbo <ngan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> then if drupal , jomlam has what django has then why are u building app with
> django, that requires much coding?
>

Drupal and Joomla are CMS applications. They allow you to build Drupal
and Joomla CMS apps. They are all very similar and do similar things.
If you want to do something that they cannot do, it is difficult
because everything you have to do must be done in the way that Drupal
or Joomla say you must do things.

So CMS applications allow you to easily build CMS applications, but
make it difficult to build non CMS applications.

Django is a library for doing things with web requests, including
generating HTML. It can do anything you want with web requests. It
does not become more difficult to utilise django when the project is
more complex.

When you hire someone who is good at building CMS applications, you
are hiring someone who will be very good at building a simple CMS, but
will struggle if you want to do something complex, bespoke or just
"not CMS-like".

When you hire someone who is good at building Django projects, you are
hiring someone who can build whatever it is you can think of.

If you are thinking about which skill set it is worth learning, the
same applies. Learning Django well will make you a more competent and
useful developer than learning how to operate a specific CMS platform.

On the other hand, many people make a good living by selling their CMS
skills to people who don't know better*.

Cheers

Tom

* If this seems derogatory, you should see the paragraph I deleted..

[ngangsia akumbo]

Then i should be very comfortable with my django.

Any more comments on that? 

[Mario Gudelj]

There's nothing else to be said mate

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[ngangsia akumbo]

thanks bro

[walter capio]

* If this seems derogatory, you should see the paragraph I deleted.. 

:D

show it show it

---

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 03:32:03 -0700
From: ngan...@gmail.com
To: django...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: cms web buyilding

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-users/b6742843-8b98-49c7-ae32-2c96ce360a89%40googlegroups.com.