[Django] #21521: Provide a boiler plate free ./manage.py startapp command
Django
------------------------------+--------------------
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: new
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Severity: Normal | Keywords:
Triage Stage: Unreviewed | Has patch: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
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Django still requires a lot of boiler plate to start with.
Running manage.py startapp could ask questions just like manage.py syncdb
does to create super user, such as :
- do you want to create a hello_world view and template ? (this will
create a views.hello, app/templates/app/base.html and
app/templates/app/hello.html files and an entry in app/urls.py if it
exists)
- do you want to add the app to INSTALLED_APPS ? (this will copy it the
first INSTALLED_APPS it founds and appears only if you don't have more
than a simple settings.py file)
- do you want to add the app to the project urlconf ? (this will appears
only if you have nothing more than a simple project/urls.py file)
Then it prints what it did with full path to edited files, so people can
actually SEE how you bootstrap an app.
If you choose no to any of theses question, the command gives you helpful
clues such as :
"You may want to add this app to your INSTALLED_APPS and project.urls.py"
Of course you can disable all that stuff with --noinput.
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521>
Django <https://code.djangoproject.com/>
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Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Needs tests: 0 | Patch needs improvement: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Changes (by russellm):
* status: new => closed
* needs_better_patch: => 0
* resolution: => wontfix
* needs_tests: => 0
* needs_docs: => 0
Comment:
I'm not sure I see the value here.
Firstly, there's a problem with failure modes. It's easy to say "just add
X to INSTALLED_APPS, and Y to urls.py", but even in your explanation
you've referred to "simple" urls.py files. What's a "simple" file? How do
you identify it reliably? And how will the app behave when it doesn't find
a "simple" file? The worst outcome here would be a command that
"automagically" completely breaks your settings/urls file, and this sort
of breakage would be easy to do accidentally when rewriting files. So, you
would have to be ultraconservative, which means you'll fall back to just
printing the instructions most of the time.
Secondly, there's the argument that we shouldn't be hiding details with
magic commands. I'd almost argue that startapp should be deprecated.
Speaking personally, I can't remember the last time that I used it. We
shouldn't be masking the internals of django apps by making them seem
mystical. An app is just a Python module that contains a models.py file
(although even that restriction could be lifted). If you want an urls.py
file, you can write one -- but it doesn't even need to be called urls.py.
You want views? Put them in a file as well -- ideally, one called
views.py. Bootstrapping commands hide this base philosophy, and
sophisticated bootstrapping commands make it even harder to spot. I'd
rather remove the crutch, rather than make the crutch more powerful.
Marking wontfix; if you want to argue your case, please start a discussion
on django-dev.
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:1>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by aaugustin):
I had the same reaction as Russell yesterday, except I was too lazy to
write down the explanation.
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:2>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by anonymous):
Then what about making a project template with these included and
commented, so newcomers can get a very quick dive into django ? Right now,
writing you first django view + template + rooting without somebody to
teach you take much more time it should. Documentation is good, but
nothing beats working code.
We could them make startproject offer to create a bootstrap project
instead if the user whishes so.
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:3>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by aaugustin):
I recently took the opposite path. I simplified the opposite path because
it's annoying to remove auto generated stuff whenever one creates a new
application.
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:4>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by russellm):
I agree. Django wears a lot of criticism (incorrectly, IMHO) for being a
bloated monolithic framework. Part of that comes from the fact that a
"simple" app appears to be really big, when in reality, it doesn't need to
be any more than one or two files. Having a huge project template with
lots of mostly empty files reinforces that false belief.
There's also tutorial value in having people type all the code. That way,
they're forced to understand what they're putting in place, and they don't
get the perception that there's lots of magic floating around in these
extra files.
On top of all that - there isn't *that* much boilerplate to start with,
and if you *really* need the help with the typing, most decent text
editors have snippet packages for Django that will autocomplete a stub
model definition, URLpattern definition, etc.
--
Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:5>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by anonymous):
I have been training people for django for 3 years now. And I assure you,
from the beginer point of view, this is both scary and confusing.
It doesn't need to be the default template, just provide the option to do
so, in the default setpu.
And comment the resulting output, a LOT.
You are all experienced programmers, but if you want new blood to come to
django, you need to think about the PHP newbie trying to have a quick
grasp of django.
PHP really took of when EasyPHP arrived on the market, effectivly hidding
the boiler plate of setuping a PHP env. Now setuping a django env is
easier, thanks to the dev serveur and sqlite. But still, there is a lot of
room for improvement.
Really, make the test. Take a kid out of IT class, or a sysadmin, or even
a rail dev, and mesure the time he can actually make a hello world by
himself, with a template. It's way longer than you think.
--
Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:6>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by anonymous):
Personnaly, it takes me 5 minutes to setup a django project without using
a project template, and I know the damn thing by heart.
You startproject, you create your app, you add the app to INSTALLED_APP,
you create a view, you hook it to the app urls.py file, then hook the app
urls.py file into the project urls.py file, you create a templates dir,
with a subdir, with a base.html that you extend with your view template.
Then you runserver.
If you want css, you have to create your static dir, then import the
static tag, then add the entry in html.
And if you want the admin, don't forget to syncdb.
I know that stuff because I did it a 1000 times.
Somebody who is starting ? I will take him hours. Litteraly.
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:7>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by aaugustin):
Django's core team includes people whose full time job includes teaching
Djang to beginners. Obviously we chose a different pedagogic approach to
the one you favor. But that doesn't mean we aren't aware of the challenge.
In fact, we've given lots of attention to this topic.
Django's answer is:
- A comprehensive tutorial for beginners, forcing them to think about what
they're doing and understand how the pieces fit together. This isn't
common practice in some programming communities, but it's part of the
values of the Django community (and of being a good programmer in general
IMO).
- Complete documentation, that takes time to read and digest, but smoothes
the learning curve — you're not going to hit a wall when you reach the
limits of autogenerated stuff.
- Support for custom project templates for advanced users who have done it
10 times and know what they need. I'm surprised to hear that you have done
it 1000 times and are still doing it manually. Check the documentation!
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:8>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by anonymous):
I don't do it manually anymore, I do it manually in lectures of course. I
was not expecting this kind of sarcastic tone here.
I'm sorry I bothered you. I won't do it again.
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:9>
Django
Reporter: anonymous | Owner: nobody
Type: New feature | Status: closed
Component: Core (Other) | Version: 1.6
Keywords: | Triage Stage: Unreviewed
Has patch: 0 | Needs documentation: 0
Easy pickings: 1 | UI/UX: 1
Comment (by aaugustin):
Sorry, I didn't mean to be sarcastic, I was merely pointing out the
exaggeration in your previous message. (FWIW I'm not a native speaker.)
Anyway, I hope this helps you understand why your proposal doesn't fit
well in Django's philosophy. If you'd like to discuss this further, I
suggest writing to the DevelopersMailingList, in order to reach to a wider
audience.
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Ticket URL: <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21521#comment:10>