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Arvind Nedumaran

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Jul 5, 2020, 10:59:23 AM7/5/20
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Hey everyone,

I notice that people who try to find support on using Django mistakenly post in this list and sometime usually has to write an explanation about how this is the wrong place. 

Could we possibly as a welcome email whenever someone joins the group? 

Just a suggestion. 

Best,
Arvind

אורי‎

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Jul 5, 2020, 11:12:01 AM7/5/20
to Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
I think because this list is called Django developers and what we call "Django users" are also developers who use Django. But they are developers.

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Arvind Nedumaran

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Jul 5, 2020, 11:14:21 AM7/5/20
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Oh I understand. I meant we could include the distinction in the welcome email and possibly a link to the other list.

That may reduce the number of people who may be looking for help but end up here mistakenly?

From: django-d...@googlegroups.com <django-d...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of אורי <u...@speedy.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 8:39:22 PM
To: Django developers (Contributions to Django itself) <django-d...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Welcome email
 

Adam Johnson

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Jul 5, 2020, 1:58:35 PM7/5/20
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I can't find a google groups feature that would allow this. Do you know of one? It might otherwise require a custom bot.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/BYAPR14MB291816DB21661EDBBC954AB5A3680%40BYAPR14MB2918.namprd14.prod.outlook.com.


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Adam

Ahmad A. Hussein

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Jul 5, 2020, 7:02:43 PM7/5/20
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+1 on this. Here's the relevant feature I found.


Ahmad

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAMyDDM2YJpza4URzW%2BrcDZi_7crJcqOz4QrCd7W45PZeR71%3DNA%40mail.gmail.com.

Adam Johnson

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Jul 8, 2020, 6:50:50 AM7/8/20
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Okay I'm in favour. That said, there's already a banner on the groups page:

This group is for the discussion of the development of Django itself. If you want to ask questions about using Django, please post on django-users.

Suggested wording, adapted from my templated reply:

Welcome to django-developers, the mailing list for discussion of the development of Django itself.

This mailing list is not for support using Django. For support, please follow the "Getting Help" page: https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/3.0/faq/help/ . This page will direct you to the django-users mailing list or other resources, so you can find people who are willing to support you, and to ask your question in a way that makes it easy for them to answer.

Thanks,

The Django Community

Who has access to add this? Someone from the DSF board, the ops team, or the fellows?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJNa-uPEnskA_seJhscuJ1%2B%3DcR17-OfFM26HpWDDGS7bqv1o0g%40mail.gmail.com.


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Adam

Shai Berger

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Jul 9, 2020, 8:18:10 AM7/9/20
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Sorry for the bike-shedding, but I think the text should drop the
"using Django" language. The people who come here with these questions
clearly think of themselves as developers, not users.

IMO It should go something like,

Welcome to django-developers, the mailing list for discussion
of the development of Django itself.

This mailing list is not for support developing apps and
websites with Django. For support, please follow the "Getting
Help" page: https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/3.0/faq/help/ .
This page will direct you to the django-users mailing list or
other resources, so you can find people who are willing to
support you, and to ask your question in a way that makes it
easy for them to answer.

Thanks,

The Django Community



On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 11:50:16 +0100
Adam Johnson <m...@adamj.eu> wrote:

> Okay I'm in favour. That said, there's already a banner on the groups
> page:
>
> This group is for the discussion of the development of Django itself.
> If
> > you want to ask questions about using Django, please post on
> > django-users.
> >
>
> Suggested wording, adapted from my templated reply:
>
> Welcome to django-developers, the mailing list for discussion of the
> > development of Django itself.
> >
> > This mailing list is not for support using Django. For support,
> > please follow the "Getting Help" page:
> > https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/3.0/faq/help/ . This page will
> > direct you to the django-users mailing list or other resources, so
> > you can find people who are willing to support you, and to ask your
> > question in a way that makes it easy for them to answer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > The Django Community
> >
>
> Who has access to add this? Someone from the DSF board, the ops team,
> or the fellows?
>
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 00:02, Ahmad A. Hussein
> <ahmadah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > +1 on this. Here's the relevant feature
> > <https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9308780?hl=en> I found.
> >
> >
> > Ahmad
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Adam Johnson <m...@adamj.eu> wrote:
> >
> >> I can't find a google groups feature that would allow this. Do you
> >> know of one? It might otherwise require a custom bot.
> >>
> >> On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 16:14, Arvind Nedumaran
> >> <arvind...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Oh I understand. I meant we could include the distinction in the
> >>> welcome email and possibly a link to the other list.
> >>>
> >>> That may reduce the number of people who may be looking for help
> >>> but end up here mistakenly?
> >>>
> >>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>> *From:* django-d...@googlegroups.com <
> >>> django-d...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of אורי
> >>> <u...@speedy.net> *Sent:* Sunday, July 5, 2020 8:39:22 PM
> >>> *To:* Django developers (Contributions to Django itself) <
> >>> django-d...@googlegroups.com>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: Welcome email
> >>>
> >>> I think because this list is called Django developers and what we
> >>> call "Django users" are also developers who use Django. But they
> >>> are developers.
> >>>
> >>> אורי
> >>> u...@speedy.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 5:59 PM Arvind Nedumaran
> >>> <arvind...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hey everyone,
> >>>
> >>> I notice that people who try to find support on using Django
> >>> mistakenly post in this list and sometime usually has to write an
> >>> explanation about how this is the wrong place.
> >>>
> >>> Could we possibly as a welcome email whenever someone joins the
> >>> group?
> >>>
> >>> Just a suggestion.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Arvind
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >>> send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/BYAPR14MB29181EBF50C845052F69E5E1A3680%40BYAPR14MB2918.namprd14.prod.outlook.com
> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/BYAPR14MB29181EBF50C845052F69E5E1A3680%40BYAPR14MB2918.namprd14.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >>> send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CABD5YeH0WySFuBnzyXENnMt-5bN5hawS4HYoNUVeGFG8TLG0qw%40mail.gmail.com
> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CABD5YeH0WySFuBnzyXENnMt-5bN5hawS4HYoNUVeGFG8TLG0qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >>> send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/BYAPR14MB291816DB21661EDBBC954AB5A3680%40BYAPR14MB2918.namprd14.prod.outlook.com
> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/BYAPR14MB291816DB21661EDBBC954AB5A3680%40BYAPR14MB2918.namprd14.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Adam
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >> send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAMyDDM2YJpza4URzW%2BrcDZi_7crJcqOz4QrCd7W45PZeR71%3DNA%40mail.gmail.com
> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAMyDDM2YJpza4URzW%2BrcDZi_7crJcqOz4QrCd7W45PZeR71%3DNA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >> .
> >>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> > send an email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJNa-uPEnskA_seJhscuJ1%2B%3DcR17-OfFM26HpWDDGS7bqv1o0g%40mail.gmail.com
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJNa-uPEnskA_seJhscuJ1%2B%3DcR17-OfFM26HpWDDGS7bqv1o0g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> > .
> >
>
>

Adam Johnson

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Jul 9, 2020, 8:59:44 AM7/9/20
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I think that's a good improvement, not bikeshedding :)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/20200709151747.766bb888.shai%40platonix.com.


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Adam

Peter Inglesby

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Jul 9, 2020, 10:10:35 AM7/9/20
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Hi folks,

Is there any moderation for posts from new users?  It can be enabled, and I'd be willing to be part of a team that filters posts from new users.

All the best,

Peter.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAMyDDM3JaGaE11r5%3DmkBCBFJV8eQ1%2BW_3ue557sorrwDuQSLhw%40mail.gmail.com.

אורי‎

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Jul 9, 2020, 10:30:26 AM7/9/20
to Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
Yes, I think it's a good idea. If a post doesn't belong to the group, it should be deleted and the person who sent it should receive a message with a link to the relevant group, such as Django users.

I also thought, why not change this group name to Django Core Developers, and Django Users will be Django Developers or something like that with the word "developers"?


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAENJrPnCS0oxU5DBGgUy1NvRe4HWN_NQWjR6XNsGoyfpDyJJLw%40mail.gmail.com.

Jure Erznožnik

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Jul 10, 2020, 3:09:17 AM7/10/20
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I too volunteer for the screening job.

LP,
Jure

Kye Russell

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Jul 24, 2020, 6:58:26 PM7/24/20
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This issue is exacerbated by similarly unaware / uncaring mailing list users responding to support requests.

What is the best path forward here?

On 10 Jul 2020, at 3:09 pm, Jure Erznožnik <jure.er...@gmail.com> wrote:



Jure Erznožnik

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Oct 27, 2020, 1:40:02 AM10/27/20
to Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
I think this thread was abandoned, but wrongfully so. Frequency of unrelated posts is increasing lately.

Are there any serious issues with the moderation queue Google provides?



LP,
Jure

Carlton Gibson

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Oct 29, 2020, 6:53:52 AM10/29/20
to Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
Hi Jure. Thanks for the follow-up.

I'm not sure there are SO MANY misplaced emails but bracketing that…

I spoke to the Ops team. The group IS moderated BUT there's no way to communicate with someone that they've sent to the wrong address, so unless it's actual spam (vs usage question wrong place — I hope that distinction makes sense) it's let through. (Adam's quick-fire "You've found the wrong list..." being more friendly than the silent abyss.)

So that's the "serious issue with the moderation queue" you speak of.
(We COULD MAYBE change policy there but…)


PAUSE FOR BREATH


We could also decamp on mass to the forum (forum.djangoproject.com)

That has Topics. Someone posts in Internals > Mentorship with a usage question and moderators just move it to Using Django.
Very simple.

The UI is also great.
The notifications are customizable.

It's Open Source.

I'll mention one more...

When you're typing a post, it searches the history to show you similar posts.

The only downside would be loosing the archive here.

I search that. I wonder how many others do? (Some definitely)

Could we bit that bullet?

Could we export the data from here and move it?
Anyone happen to have the full list history already?

I wonder what an import/export would look like.


AND BREATHE

(😀)

Kind Regards,

Carlton

Tom Forbes

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Oct 29, 2020, 11:06:03 AM10/29/20
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I think a google groups to discourse import is more than possible and would be good. I was quite skeptical about discourse at first, but it’s really quite awesome and definitely a set up from google groups.

After a brief bit of searching I can see there is a tool to export all messages from a google group[1]. Discourse has a pretty good API but lacks the ability to create messages as another user using an admin API key, so we can do the import one of two ways. For each groups message we:

1. Take the email and create a pseudo-user with a specific email address (t...@tomforb.es.groups.import), then post as that user
2. Attempt to look up if the user already exists in Discourse, create an API token for them and post the message as that user.

Either way we get a central, searchable place for these messages. The first is far simpler but we loose attribution for users registered on both places. The second required adding a specific API key to existing users, which might trigger some confusing emails.

I have some time free in the next few days and I’d love to do a proof of concept to see if it’s feasible, but I’d need elevated permissions on the forum.

Tom


On 29 Oct 2020, at 10:54, Carlton Gibson <carlton...@gmail.com> wrote:



Tom Forbes

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Oct 29, 2020, 11:09:50 AM10/29/20
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One alternative to the scraper might be using Google Takeout 🥡  (https://takeout.google.com/), but it’s unclear if that would export the messages themselves. And it would require the actual owner of the group to do that with their account.

Tom

On 29 Oct 2020, at 15:05, Tom Forbes <t...@tomforb.es> wrote:

I think a google groups to discourse import is more than possible and would be good. I was quite skeptical about discourse at first, but it’s really quite awesome and definitely a set up from google groups.

Carlton Gibson

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Oct 29, 2020, 11:14:40 AM10/29/20
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Hey Tom. 

I pinged the Forum Powers That Be™ to see about permissions for you. 


On 29 Oct 2020, at 16:09, Tom Forbes <t...@tomforb.es> wrote:

One alternative to the scraper might be using Google Takeout 🥡  (https://takeout.google.com/), but it’s unclear if that would export the messages themselves. And it would require the actual owner of the group to do that with their account.

Difficulty of getting the messages out was what led me to wonder if someone had an MBOX somewhere with the whole thing in… (But I didn’t try anything.) 

I suspect if we were to map the top 50-100 posters we’d more than cover the lion’s share of the history, mapping messages to authors.

If you’re keen to try a PoC, that would be amazing. 
Thanks. 
C. 

Tom Forbes

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Oct 29, 2020, 11:19:22 AM10/29/20
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Amazing, thank you!

If I get access I’ll create a specific section and try importing the latest 100 topics. If you could try seeing if we can grab the messages from Google Takeout that would be fantastic, otherwise I’ll try the linked tool.

I’m actually not sure who owns this group. Who created it originally? This might be lost in the sands of time, but it might be good to find out if we can as this group might disappear if their account is suspended/deleted for whatever reason.

Tom

On 29 Oct 2020, at 15:14, Carlton Gibson <carlton...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Tom. 
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Carlton Gibson

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Oct 29, 2020, 11:23:45 AM10/29/20
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I don’t have any controls here. I’m pretty sure Florian would be the most likely candidate. (No doubt it’s Jacob.)


Andrew Godwin

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Oct 29, 2020, 12:11:04 PM10/29/20
to Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
I'd be more than happy to assist a trial of moving things to the forum; we've had it running for over a year now, and I feel it's a much easier way to run a community.

Among other things, we can:
- Move posts to the right forum when they post in the wrong one (rather than emailing back and saying "please post again over here")
- Delete people's personal information when they accidentally post it
- Remove CoC-violating posts and not leave any history

Either I can try the import out if someone pops the right permissions over to me, or I'm happy to supervise enough forum API access for you to try it, Tom.

Andrew

Alessandro Dentella

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Oct 29, 2020, 12:21:52 PM10/29/20
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On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 04:14:03PM +0100, Carlton Gibson wrote:
> Hey Tom.
>
> I pinged the Forum Powers That Be™ to see about permissions for you.
>
> > On 29 Oct 2020, at 16:09, Tom Forbes <t...@tomforb.es> wrote:
> >
> > One alternative to the scraper might be using Google Takeout 🥡 (https://takeout.google.com/ <https://takeout.google.com/>), but it’s unclear if that would export the messages themselves. And it would require the actual owner of the group to do that with their account.
>
> Difficulty of getting the messages out was what led me to wonder if someone had an MBOX somewhere with the whole thing in… (But I didn’t try anything.)


I have an mbox with all messages from dec 7, 2006. It's around 43000 messages.
I'm fairly confident I didn't delete messages on purpose.

You can download it from here:

https://wikidattica.org/media/django-developers.mbox.gz

sandro
*:-)

Tom Forbes

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Oct 29, 2020, 12:43:50 PM10/29/20
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It actually might be simpler than I suggested. Discourse has a script to import an mbox: https://github.com/discourse/discourse/blob/master/script/import_scripts/mbox.rb

I’m running the box importer script now and it appears to work fine. While some people might have historical mbox files, it might be better to get the source of truth from Google Groups?

Tom

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Tom Forbes

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Oct 30, 2020, 8:26:20 AM10/30/20
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The export finally finished after a whole day running.


We’ve got 56,282 total messages. I think the script from Discourse I linked above would be the perfect way to import these as it creates the users on demand and isn’t limited by the external Discourse API. I’ll leave that to anyone who has access and is willing (Andrew?).

Tom

Carlton Gibson

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Nov 8, 2020, 6:34:39 AM11/8/20
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Hi Tom and Andrew. 

This week has been busy (shall we say) I know — can I assume you two are on this between you, or is there anything I can do to facilitate progress here? 

Thanks. 
Carlton.

Andrew Godwin

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Nov 8, 2020, 4:37:43 PM11/8/20
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I have been moving house this week (plus, yknow, the election) so I haven't got anything done, but hope to poke at it early next week!

Andrew

Andrew Godwin

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Nov 13, 2020, 12:19:21 PM11/13/20
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Just to keep everyone updated - it looks like the import instructions/script are for self-hosted instances rather than Discourse-hosted instances, so I've pinged their support to see how best to proceed. Hopefully I can get a trial import done this weekend.

(worst case, I'll write my own script to mash the APIs over HTTP)

Andrew
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