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Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us anywhere, rather offer to help resolving issues and to help learn from mistakes.
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As someone who has been the target of harassment at conferences (I've been lucky, only minor incidents for me, although the same can't be said for other of my female colleagues), I prefer explicit over implicit. If someone is a harasser outside the community, I won't feel safe encountering them in a conference setting either.
That said, I trust the discretion of the core team and the DSF membership and I'll be interested to see how they decide on the matter.
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As someone affected by an issue that would fall under the proposed change [1], I still support an explicit guideline about external behavior influencing internal acceptance. The safety of all members is more important than the risk of misapplication of the rule.
[1] http://doubleunion.tumblr.com/post/77929475144/how-not-to-support-women-in-tech
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Out of your three links only the 3rd describes an actual harassment occurring at a Django-related event.
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James,I'm completely aware of the kind of situation you're describing in some technical communities. I also don't find any evidence of it whatsoever in ours, as I've pointed out repeatedly and have repeatedly asked for evidence of by those who think a speech and behavior code is justifiable. So far none has been forthcoming. You then ask "if you don't trust the leaders of this community to handle things fairly and responsibly" well my friend, that has already happened as I described before in this community. So you seem focused on the theoretical while I'm far more interested in what has actually happened.I'm curious to know - exactly what are the goals that people expect from a speech and conduct code? Does anyone for this actually think that such a policy is going to achieve these goals and do so without causing more harm than good?
I believe, when thoughtfully considered and viewing the evidence that is publicly available to all, that they must fail. Is that not a very simple burden of evidence that any such policy should have to over come before being adopted?
On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 3:07:57 PM UTC-7, Benjamin Scherrey wrote:I'm curious to know - exactly what are the goals that people expect from a speech and conduct code? Does anyone for this actually think that such a policy is going to achieve these goals and do so without causing more harm than good?I actually do think that more good than harm can come from this :)
I checked the diff of #86. It is no different other than adding the DSF's opinion a bit more explicitly. It says "may affect," which is an opinion. There might be better ways to word it, and the CoC might need a bit of refactoring because #86 brings in some overlapping opinion, but the overall intent is good.
As a longtime free speech advocate, I also see no formal restrictions imposed upon my rights by the specific words in #86.
I believe, when thoughtfully considered and viewing the evidence that is publicly available to all, that they must fail. Is that not a very simple burden of evidence that any such policy should have to over come before being adopted?There is enough evidence. There have sadly been serious incidents in our community that have not been reported formally out of fear. Improving the CoC to better address the problem is certainly worthwhile. It may be impossible to eliminate serious incidents entirely, but at least we can try our best.
--AudreyOn Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 2:51 AM, James Bennett <ubern...@gmail.com> wrote:--I have been involved in building and participating in and running technically-oriented groups for fifteen years. I've seen a lot of stuff.The most common problem pattern I have seen is the "I'm not touching you" game. To understand what this means, imagine parents driving a car, with two children in the back seat. Child A keeps poking Child B, so the parents instruct Child A to stop touching Child B. A few moments later, things resume, but now Child A says "I didn't touch him, the sleeve of my shirt touched him, you didn't say the sleeve of my shirt couldn't touch him". And away we go as Child A comes up with ever more convoluted technicalities to try to keep harassing Child B while still claiming it "wasn't against the rules".The "I'm not touching you" game is also a favorite of many types of people on the internet. Avoiding it requires policies which contain both affirmative and negative statements (i.e., lists of things encouraged/expected, lists of things forbidden) as well as a certain amount of discretion -- even, dare I say, a vague but probably large amount -- to be left in the hands of whichever person or persons will be responsible for enforcement, so that we don't end up playing "I'm not touching you" until the end of time. That little bit of discretion to step outside the stark technicalities and just bluntly deal with such people makes, in my experience at least, all the difference between a workable and an unworkable policy.So those are things that need to be in our CoC. If they make you uncomfortable, if you don't trust the leaders of this community to handle things fairly and responsibly, if you are chilled, silenced and terrified byt the idea that harassing behavior would result in ostracism from the Django community, then perhaps the Django community is simply not the place for you, because the kind of community we want to have and the kind of community you want to have may not be compatible.
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I really appreciate you for being the first person to directly respond to this most critical issue in this debate. You are correct, this incident is quite central to my point and concern. However, I have again reviewed the group thread under discussion where the incident occurred and found absolutely nothing that comes close to violating the CoC from the person who was quite directly threatened to either shut up or be banned. It doesn't get much clearer than that.
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Benjamin,I believe there have been serious issues with harassment of women specifically at previous DjangoCons (though there may not be mention of it on the mailing lists.) It has definitely been a major issue at other tech conferences and tech meetups. That was a major factor in the recent push in the tech world to have better anti-harassment / code of conduct policies. See also: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents (and the rest of the wiki, really).Here is a short selection of other links that talk about this issue, with various relations to Django / DjangoCon specifically.I could just keep going, but I don't want to overwhelm people (slash you) with too many links. If you want more, you can use google.If you think a policy like this doesn't need to exist, you are IMO, frankly, very wrong. But if you think it just needs to be written differently, stop talking about it and show us what that would look like!--Stephen
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Kevin Daum <kevin...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm going to attempt to reach out to some folks who I think might be more likely than us to benefit from a code of conduct and ask if they have anything to add. I'm not mounting a public campaign, I just think we're missing some important perspectives.
On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 3:15:10 AM UTC-4, Robert Grant wrote:Just to hedge my bets, if the group does decide to create the ASBO, could it be called the Anti-Social Django Act?Good email. This one won't be that good.Boiling my verbose email down to two sentences:
We seem to already have a private group of people who make decisions in secret and pronounce a verdict on issues, and who can to a large extent control the community. If this is the case, and they already have total control should they choose to exercise it, a Django ASBO won't give any extra power over - and thus protection against - griefers/bullies/whatever.On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <prote...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi Kevin,And thanx for responding to my question about the need for such a policy with Django. Last night, as I had not yet had a response from anyone about this question I searched the archives of both django groups looking for any events or circumstances in which the code of conduct was invoked as I had no personal recollection of any such thing. I found some innocuous reference in the django-users group (wrongly suggesting that this coming policy was going to increase female participation) and in django-developers, one actual circumstance where its use was threatened - not surprisingly as part of the one example you provided that actually has anything to do at all with the Django community. Sadly, it's invocation was precisely used in the manner that I had feared - to stifle debate and threaten a person who was making valid and reasonable arguments (no doubt in the middle of a flame war but he/she wasn't the flamer). When I saw the name of the person who invoked the code of conduct I was even more disappointed as it was someone that I otherwise have a profound respect for.Other than this I was not surprised to see zero evidence for the need for such a policy as there don't seem to be any threatening events of the like that your email raises. These problems may exist elsewhere but not amongst the general django community that I've ever seen.Understand my background. I own a software development company that was a VERY early adopter of Django way before the 1.0 days. I expect I was certainly one of the first thousand developers to use Django in a real-life situation once it got outside of the newspaper where it was created. My company is one of the first to build commercial systems for clients on top of Django. My staff even has a few little commits into the django code base over the years, although minor, but we were proud nonetheless to be able to contribute in some small way. I've attended my share of PyCons (prior to the invention of DjangoCon which I hope to attend one day) and have always found the community very open and inclusive of all types. This is a Good Thing (TM). I've even sent 5 staff to the event, four of which happened to be women. My team now consists of 34+ people, all but two of which are in a technical capacity. WE are geeks who seek out other geeks who want to be appreciated solely based on merit. We happen to have about a 40% female colleague share and explicitly do NOT have a diversity policy (nor will we ever have an HR department but that's another story). I simply am strong at identifying and attracting people with strong potential and the market is so extremely competitive that one must leave no stone unturned in order to find the best. THAT is the one way that a more inclusive group will come into being and for the right reasons.So I have actually achieved what everyone is crying out for and can't seem to figure how to accomplish. It wasn't difficult. I'm here to tell you that diversity policies and codes of conduct, in my experience consulting to dozens of commercial, government, and educational organizations in my 30+ years of experience have never once helped achieve their stated goals and, many times, have hurt both the organization and it's intended beneficiaries. True to my experience, the one threatened invocation of the code of conduct for Django fits right in line with my experience of such policies, sadly.Therefore, I hope everyone appreciates that I'm fully invested in Django and attracting the best & brightest into our community. I think you'll see Kevin, that I supported your first PR but have very grave concerns about the second for the reasons I've already gone into great detail about. I do believe completely that both were put forward with good intentions. I'm all for policies that put forward good examples of appreciated behavior and add to the general sense of inclusiveness which I think your first one does. It scares the hell out of me when people start enumerating banned conduct and speech - and I wish more people understood the issue as well as I about why. That's why I'm quite vocal about this.Thanx for your time and interest,-- Ben ScherreyOn Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Daum <kevin...@gmail.com> wrote:Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about.Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. Yes. Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software development and I am excited to be a part of a particular software development community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a safe, supportive environment for everyone who is working towards that same goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested in learning why these kinds of policies are so important:
- See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this:
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/- http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this bit: "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place to identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy for enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they happen, so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but they’re better than doing nothing."
- http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something django-related, it's this situation in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice.
On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:Hi Kevin,Thanks for these suggestions.By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit.Russ %-)
On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <kevin...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
- #84, to let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even they are welcome here, and
- #86, to make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior outside the django community may have an adverse effect on their ability to participate within the django community.
I welcome your feedback.Thanks,Kevin Daum
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Kevin,> It simply says, in deliberately vague language, that if a member of the Django community is treated abusively by another member of the Django community _outside_ a Django forum and that abuse is reported to the conduct committee, the committee will not reject the report outright simply on the basis of where the alleged abuse occurredPerhaps the wording could then be closer to the intent. Something like "if a member of the Django community is treated abusively by another member of the Django community outside of a Django forum, and is reported, it will warrant investigation and may result in action". I think that language is more precise, and gets around the problems stated by Ben. If there is agreement, I'll be happy to open a PR against #86.
> I expect you to quickly find problems with everything I've said.I don't think this is particularly fair. Ben has been very vocal (and mostly solo), but he has been quite respectful to the people he is discussing the topic with.
Hi,
I am not qualified enough to express an opinion on the matter of the DCoC. However, I have a few questions:
- Have we consulted a psychologist or a specialist on the topics of community inclusion and protection? Their knowledge/research could be instrumental in determining the best way to write and implement a code of conduct.
- Am I correct in assuming that the sole aforementioned invocation of the DCoC was the following?
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/django-developers/Y_Tq7w4PAeI/WurT7J3Rcd0J
- Would it be correct to state that, with or without this wording, the results of breaking the DCoC would be identical? Is it correct to say that the new wording is for the benefit of being clear and open, such that new members better understand the rules?
- These rules have been referred to several times as guidelines to adhere to. Would it be in the interest of the community to say as much on the DCoC webpage (rather than or alongside "rules")?
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