"DIY Human CRISPR" by Josiah Zayner

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Mackenzie Cowell

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Oct 5, 2017, 8:22:52 PM10/5/17
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Josiah Zayner presented a short workshop at SynBioBeta 2017 on "DIY Human CRISPR".

I'd like to raise awareness about Josiah's rhetoric, so below is a short transcript of his presentation (from about the 20 minute mark):

[20:40] “If you look at Step 3 - which is, uh, you know, I like steps and lists, they are awesome - uhm, there are actually websites out there that have this infrastructure completely built. You can go in, type in the name of a gene. Not even the name, you could type in the name you think a gene should be named, and what it will do is predict the best guide RNAs, the best 20 bases, to use, so that Cas9 enzyme can cut in your genome in this exact place."

"Literally, you don’t have to do anything, right? You have to go in, type in the name of a gene, and press enter, and you could modify yourself with CRISPR. Right? That’s what this DNA basically is. This DNA, if you think about, took me about 5 minutes to make. Actually, it happened so fast, I had to go back and verify it a couple of times. I didn’t think I could create DNA that could modify my own genetics with CRISPR in 5 minutes. Now, if that doesn’t blow your mind, I, I really don’t know what does. And, the next question comes down to, 'What’s holding us back; what’s stopping us?' And I dunno, to me, I, I don’t really know what’s stopping us, you know? I, I think about it a lot, because, I have this really, you know, bad snaggle-tooth, and I think like what happens if I could change that?"

"No but if you think about, people are born with things that they have no decision over. And then everybody else says, 'Oh, no, fuck you, I'm athletic and 6 feet tall and, you know, good looking, and you just, you just, the genetic lottery - you lost. That's the truth. You lost the genetic lottery and you have to suffer through it.' How does it make sense?"


I don't have time to transcribe the whole thing; if you want to help you can add to this temporary document: http://piratepad.be/p/SBB17-zayner

I am not taking a position for or against Josiah's wording, just curious what others think.

mac


Mac Cowell / @100ideas / +1.231.313.9062 /  DIYbio.org

Bryan Bishop

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Oct 5, 2017, 9:05:42 PM10/5/17
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On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Mackenzie Cowell <maco...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not taking a position for or against Josiah's wording, just curious what others think.

Absolutely shameful that they put him in a small room and he had to provide his own recording equipment. Academic community has a tendency to marginalize and politicize these sorts of projects.   I'll take a different stance: Josiah, if you want this funded, talk with me and we'll work something out. Just want to add real quick, it's not always about VC-- equity transactions are probably inappropriate for these kinds of engineering projects. This goes for anyone, not just Josiah Zayner.

transcript: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/diy-human-gene-therapy-with-crispr/

djwr...@gmail.com

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Oct 5, 2017, 9:28:33 PM10/5/17
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I have to give Josiah credit for not pussy footing around. I think we should save the self experimentation with genome editing for those that have a serious if not fatal illness.  Just an opinion. 

On Oct 5, 2017, at 6:05 PM, Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Mackenzie Cowell <maco...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not taking a position for or against Josiah's wording, just curious what others think.
Ng

Absolutely shameful that they put him in a small room and he had to provide his own recording equipment. Academic community has a tendency to marginalize and politicize these sorts of projects.   I'll take a different stance: Josiah, if you want this funded, talk with me and we'll work something out. Just want to add real quick, it's not always about VC-- equity transactions are probably inappropriate for these kinds of engineering projects. This goes for anyone, not just Josiah Zayner.

transcript: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/diy-human-gene-therapy-with-crispr/

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Raza

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Oct 7, 2017, 5:58:57 AM10/7/17
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Is that how easy genome editing would be? Humans don't have endogenous CRISPR hardware; last I looked into this, you needed to at least install that into every to-be-edited cell first/alongside the code for the changes you wanted made, and I thought the the Cas9 system was somewhat toxic to mammals. Then there's the challenge of getting your DNA into a substantial proportion of a living human's cells, which again last I looked was still very much a problem.

M'not an expert on this, but I've been casually following the topic with interest, specifically with an eye on future DIY gene editing.

Cathal Garvey

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Oct 7, 2017, 6:35:02 AM10/7/17
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You are correct, humans don't have a readily analogous system to cas9. There are other systems that could be hijacked, though possibly the easier route is transient expression; deliver the crispr system alongside your targeting DNA, let it express for a few mins/hours, and when the DNA degrades the job's finished.

Years later, you die of leukemia. ;)
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Raza

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Oct 7, 2017, 8:09:31 AM10/7/17
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Right. I think that's what Josiah was talking about in his talk, and if you can do permanent genome editing with that it'd make sense to stick to transient. Thanks.

Re:OP - I don't mind his rhetoric at all, btw; I'm all for giving people power over their genetically determined traits - there's some serious issues to be solved this way. I do think a bit more caution would be warranted, though. I'll give it a few more years and keep an eye on specificity results... then when it starts looking safe, maybe try something that knocks out body hair protein production selective to the DNA in hair follicle cells, which should be just about the easiest to reach selectively on the physical level too, for a double safeguard. It'd save a lot of time if I could get out of shaving. Anybody got any ideas on how that'd go horrible wrong?

Nathan McCorkle

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Oct 7, 2017, 6:20:21 PM10/7/17
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On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Mackenzie Cowell <maco...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not taking a position for or against Josiah's wording, just curious what others think.

Pretty cool, he seems like he's been studying this sort of thing long enough that he must think the risk is pretty low. I am sure he'll keep documenting as things progress, so I expect good things for the world in general to come out of this.

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Jonathan Cline

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Oct 11, 2017, 11:02:24 PM10/11/17
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Such comments are unacceptable.  And he just typed himself as a moron.  Someone should contact his past/current professors or supervisors to make sure he gets a talking to.


On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 5:22:52 PM UTC-7, Mac Cowell wrote:
Josiah Zayner presented a short workshop at SynBioBeta 2017 on "DIY Human CRISPR".

I'd like to raise awareness about Josiah's rhetoric, so below is a short transcript of his presentation (from about the 20 minute mark):

[20:40] “If you look at Step 3 - which is, uh, you know, I like steps and lists, they are awesome - uhm, there are actually websites out there that have this infrastructure completely built. You can go in, type in the name of a gene. Not even the name, you could type in the name you think a gene should be named, and what it will do is predict the best guide RNAs, the best 20 bases, to use, so that Cas9 enzyme can cut in your genome in this exact place."

"Literally, you don’t have to do anything, right? You have to go in, type in the name of a gene, and press enter, and you could modify yourself with CRISPR. Right? That’s what this DNA basically is. This DNA, if you think about, took me about 5 minutes to make. Actually, it happened so fast, I had to go back and verify it a couple of times. I didn’t think I could create DNA that could modify my own genetics with CRISPR in 5 minutes. Now, if that doesn’t blow your mind, I, I really don’t know what does. And, the next question comes down to, 'What’s holding us back; what’s stopping us?' And I dunno, to me, I, I don’t really know what’s stopping us, you know? I, I think about it a lot, because, I have this really, you know, bad snaggle-tooth, and I think like what happens if I could change that?"

"No but if you think about, people are born with things that they have no decision over. And then everybody else says, 'Oh, no, fuck you, I'm athletic and 6 feet tall and, you know, good looking, and you just, you just, the genetic lottery - you lost. That's the truth. You lost the genetic lottery and you have to suffer through it.' How does it make sense?"

You can watch it in its entirety here:  

I don't have time to transcribe the whole thing; if you want to help you can add to this temporary document: http://piratepad.be/p/SBB17-zayner

I am not taking a position for or against Josiah's wording, just curious what others think.

mac


Mac Cowell / @100ideas / +1.231.313.9062 /  DIYbio.org




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Mac Davis

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Oct 12, 2017, 1:47:04 AM10/12/17
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Why are they unacceptable? He can hype himself as whomever he desires. There do exist people who are not merely subordinate to superiors.

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Lisa Thalheim

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Oct 12, 2017, 5:17:11 AM10/12/17
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Phew. He's kind of all over the place here.

The first thing that jumps out at me: He grossly misrepresents the
technical difficulty of (DIY) human CRISPR, apparently for the sake of a
"cool" narrative. I know it's an easy trap to fall into in the world of
DIYBio, but I'm not a fan of that kind of thing. I find it dishonest.

And then he gets into the question of ethics, where things get really
jumbled. Teasing this apart could be an interesting exercise, but I'll
spare you the wall of text.
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John Griessen

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Oct 12, 2017, 11:35:03 AM10/12/17
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On 10/12/2017 04:17 AM, 'Lisa Thalheim' via DIYbio wrote:
> The first thing that jumps out at me: He grossly misrepresents the
> technical difficulty of (DIY) human CRISPR, apparently for the sake of a
> "cool" narrative.

I think he was talking in the realm of possibilities, so difficult is definitely possible,
so he probably has triggered some thinking on this by some people who heard him.
What-if? kind of thinking, and by the time some of the audience consider action, the difficulty
of some steps may be much less. A "cool" narrative is going to be heard by young people more
than a dry narrative, so it's all fine by me as far as free speaking and idea generating goes.
I doubt anyone inspired by this to dig deeper will feel cheated when they find the steps
involving CAS9 are tricky with negative side effects...

Instead, they will probably think, "How would you do the same as CAS9 without such negatives?"

Skyler Gordon

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Oct 12, 2017, 3:21:07 PM10/12/17
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Theoretically you could get the Cas-9 / CRISPR system to be introduced systemically in the human system if you used a hepadnavirus or lenitvirus that has the Cas-9 protein (or the nucleic cassette for it) and desired targeting sequence all packaged into the viral vector. 

I think it's probably better to think of removing genetic diseases from the population (Huntington's disease, Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, etc.) at an egg (single cell) level then to start playing with the idea of altering an entire human system just because of some "Snaggle [teeth]" or because you think you lost the "genetic lottery" based on some arbitrary physical traits. 

-SG 



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Abizar Lakdawalla

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Oct 12, 2017, 4:04:30 PM10/12/17
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Could you explain your first sentence in more detail - not sure I understand ...
For your second sentence - this has been done in the US (though some doubts about the result) and in China for B-thallasemia at early stage embryo level

Jonathan Cline

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Oct 12, 2017, 9:16:52 PM10/12/17
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USFDA

The field of genetics is moving rapidly with new techniques that focus on DNA manipulation in vivo resulting in the alteration of genes to correct mutations, introduce new genetic information, and remove specific DNA sequences. Zinc-Finger Nucleases, TALENs and CRISPR/Cas9 are a few of the genome editing tools that are now available to the scientific research community. To address the societal issues surrounding genome editing, the International Summit on Human Gene Editing, hosted by the scientific academies of China, the United Kingdom and the U.S. was held in December 2015 in Washington DC. The summit concluded that somatic therapies based on genome editing should proceed under the existing FDA regulatory framework, but editing the human germline would be irresponsible to pursue at this time.

FDA has regulatory authority over genetically manipulated cells and/or their derivatives and requires submission of an Investigational New Drug application (IND) before a clinical study can proceed. FDA's regulations on investigational new drugs, including those for the submission and review of an IND are described in Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Parts 50, 56, and 312. A Federal Register (FR) notice describing FDA's authority over cell and gene therapy products ("Application of Current Statutory Authorities to Human Somatic Cell Therapy Products and Gene Therapy Products") was published on October 14, 1993, (58 FR 53248) and a final rule establishing criteria for regulation of human cellular and tissue- based products (HCT/P) based on a tiered approach, including reproductive cells and tissues was published on January 19, 2001.

Cellular & Gene Therapy Products

The Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research (CBER) regulates cellular therapy products, human gene therapy products, and certain devices related to cell and gene therapy. CBER uses both the Public Health Service Act and the Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act as enabling statutes for oversight.

Cellular therapy products include cellular immunotherapies, cancer vaccines, and other types of both autologous and allogeneic cells for certain therapeutic indications, including hematopoetic stem cells and adult and embryonic stem cells. Human gene therapy refers to products that introduce genetic material into a person’s DNA to replace faulty or missing genetic material, thus treating a disease or abnormal medical condition. CBER has approved both cellular and gene therapy products – a list of these products may be found here

Cellular and gene therapy-related research and development in the United States continue to grow at a fast rate, with a number of products advancing in clinical development. In addition to regulatory oversight of clinical studies, CBER provides proactive scientific and regulatory advice to medical researchers and manufacturers in the area of novel product development.
 

Contact FDA

Consumer Affairs Branch (CBER)

Division of Communication and Consumer Affairs

Office of Communication, Outreach and Development

Food and Drug Administration

10903 New Hampshire Avenue

Building 71 Room 3103

Silver Spring, MD 20993-0002

Page Last Updated: 08/30/2017 

Nathan McCorkle

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Oct 13, 2017, 12:19:49 AM10/13/17
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On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Jonathan Cline <jcl...@ieee.org> wrote:

USFDA

The field of genetics is moving rapidly with new techniques that focus on DNA manipulation in vivo resulting in the alteration of genes to correct mutations, introduce new genetic information, and remove specific DNA sequences. Zinc-Finger Nucleases, TALENs and CRISPR/Cas9 are a few of the genome editing tools that are now available to the scientific research community. To address the societal issues surrounding genome editing, the International Summit on Human Gene Editing, hosted by the scientific academies of China, the United Kingdom and the U.S. was held in December 2015 in Washington DC. The summit concluded that somatic therapies based on genome editing should proceed under the existing FDA regulatory framework, but editing the human germline would be irresponsible to pursue at this time.

FDA has regulatory authority over genetically manipulated cells and/or their derivatives and requires submission of an Investigational New Drug application (IND) before a clinical study can proceed.


I doubt there is any precedent for someone modifying themselves. I wonder if there is more specific verbiage, especially considering there is no clinical study going on. Many "kits" are able to skirt laws for "products" and safety assurance (from guns to tesla coils and IoT/hom-eautomation gizmos).

Interesting era for sure!

Jonathan Cline

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Dec 30, 2019, 12:31:27 PM12/30/19
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He Jiankui and colleagues found guilty, He gets 3 years in prison and pays a mediocre fine.



Chinese Scientist Who Genetically Edited Babies Gets 3 Years in Prison
He Jiankui’s work was also carried out on a third infant, according to China’s state media, in a new disclosure that is likely to add to the global uproar over such experiments.


BEIJING — A court in China on Monday sentenced He Jiankui, the researcher who shocked the global scientific community when he claimed that he had created the world’s first genetically edited babies, to three years in prison for carrying out “illegal medical practices.”

On Monday, China’s state media said his work had resulted in a third genetically edited baby, who had been previously undisclosed.

Dr. He pleaded guilty and was also fined $430,000, according to Xinhua. In a brief trial, the court also handed down prison sentences to two other scientists who it said had “conspired” with him: Zhang Renli, who was sentenced to two years in prison, and Qin Jinzhou, who got a suspended sentence of one and a half years.

The court held that the defendants, “in the pursuit of fame and profit, deliberately violated the relevant national regulations on scientific and medical research and crossed the bottom line on scientific and medical ethics,” Xinhua said.

American scientists who knew of Dr. He’s plans are now under scrutiny. Dr. He’s former academic adviser, Stephen Quake, a star Stanford bioengineer and inventor, is facing a Stanford investigation into his interaction with his former student. Rice University has been investigating Michael Deem, Dr. He’s Ph.D. adviser, because of allegations that he was actively involved in the project.

Dr. Quake has said he had nothing to do with Dr. He’s work. Mr. Deem has said he was present for parts of Dr. He’s research but his lawyers have denied that he was actively involved.

Nathan McCorkle

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Dec 30, 2019, 1:00:27 PM12/30/19
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On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 9:31 AM Jonathan Cline <jnc...@gmail.com> wrote:
He Jiankui and colleagues found guilty, He gets 3 years in prison and pays a mediocre fine.

I wonder if China allows prison pen-pals?

Jonathan Cline

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Aug 6, 2020, 12:30:09 PM8/6/20
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Geneva Statement on Heritable Human Genome Editing: The Need for Course Correction


Trends in Biotechnology SCIENCE & SOCIETY| VOLUME 38, ISSUE 4, P351-354, APRIL 01, 2020
 Published:January 31, 2020 DOI:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tibtech.2019.12.022

...
Heritable Human Genome Editing: Nearing a Critical Juncture

"We contest moves toward reproductive use of human genome modification and affirm the need for broad societal consensus before any decision about whether to proceed is made. We insist on the need for genuine public engagement that is inclusive, global, transparent, informed, open in scope, supported by resources, and given adequate time.
Toward that end, we call for an urgently needed course correction (Box 2) along three dimensions.

First, we need to address and clarify several misrepresentations that have distorted public understanding of heritable human genome modification.
Second, we must reorient the conversation by foregrounding societal consequences and undertaking a thorough analysis of threats to equality.
Third, we need criteria for ‘public empowerment’: robust public engagement that promotes democratic governance through shared decision-making [4].


Perhaps the most fundamental and widespread misrepresentation is that heritable human genome editing is needed to treat or prevent serious genetic diseases. Deliberations about heritable human genome editing should hence acknowledge these basic points:
• Heritable human genome editing would not treat, cure, or prevent disease in any existing person. Instead, it would modify the genes of future children and generations through the intentional creation of embryos with altered genomes. This fact makes it categorically distinct from somatic gene therapies. Heritable human genome editing should be understood not as a medical intervention, but as a way to satisfy parental desires for genetically related children or for children with specific genetic traits.
• Modifying genes in early embryos, gametes, or gamete precursor cells could produce unanticipated biological effects in resulting children and in their offspring, creating harm rather than preventing it. Heritable human genome editing would also require and normalize the use of in vitro fertilization (IVF), exposing healthy women to significant health burdens [4].
• Prospective parents at risk of transmitting a genetic condition already have several options to avoid doing so, should they find them acceptable. For example, prospective parents may seek to have unaffected children via third-party gametes or adoption.
• In nearly every case, prospective parents at risk of transmitting a genetic condition who wish to avoid doing so and to have genetically related children can accomplish this with the existing embryo screening technique preimplantation genetic diagnosis (PGD) [5]. While PGD also raises troubling ethical questions about what kind of lives we welcome into the world, modifying or introducing traits through genome editing would vastly intensify these concerns. Genome editing cannot be considered an alternative to PGD, because PGD would remain a necessary step in any embryo editing procedure.
Deliberations about heritable human genome modification must seriously investigate the implications of social and historical dynamics such as these:
• Competitive pressures to ‘get ahead’, coupled with commercial incentives in the fertility industry (especially where it operates in the private sector), could foster the adoption of heritable human genome editing by those able to afford it. Unequal access to perceived genetic ‘upgrades’ could then exacerbate the recent dramatic rise in socioeconomic inequality.
• Racism and xenophobia are resurgent around the world, fueled by discredited scientific and popular assumptions about biological differences among racially categorized populations. Eugenic thinking, which aims to ‘improve’ humanity through genetic and reproductive technologies and practices, persists in popular discourse and could be reinvigorated by the availability of heritable human genome editingiv [6,7]. These pernicious ideas increase stigma and discrimination against those considered genetically disadvantaged, including disabled people and communities, and undermine the fundamental equality of all people.
• Outcomes in related biotechnological spheres provide examples of the likely trajectory of heritable human genome editing if commercialized. These include the promotion of social sex selection by fertility clinics and of unproven and risky ‘treatments’ by commercial stem cell clinics.

Public engagement and empowerment are likely to reveal additional concerns that have not yet surfaced, particularly if we commit to including and listening to a broad range of voices and perspectives.



End quote

Raza

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Aug 10, 2020, 8:48:55 AM8/10/20
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The geneva statement raises some valid points, but seems to err on the side of status quo bias, and linking gene editing to racist eugenics is just unjustified proliferation of aversion learning. Even if it *were* used that way, which it isn't, you don't hold a technology morally responsible for the way political outliers use(d) it.

Cathal Garvey

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Aug 10, 2020, 8:57:35 AM8/10/20
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It also adopts uncritically some very iffy philisophical positions that are extremely convenient if all you want to do is wash your hands of other people's problems.

e.g.: germline gene editing doesn't cure any diseases because the people don't exist yet -> no need to switch the trolley to the other track, because it hasn't hit anybody yet.

I doubt anyone with Huntingdon syndrome is going to read this and think "yea, thank goodness nobody intervened to prevent that gene from being inherited by the kids of my parents, or maybe I would be different or something"

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David Murphy

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Aug 10, 2020, 1:22:51 PM8/10/20
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"We contest moves toward reproductive use of human genome modification and affirm the need for broad societal consensus before any decision about whether to proceed is made. We insist on the need for genuine public engagement that is inclusive, global, transparent, informed, open in scope, supported by resources, and given adequate time."

Translations:

"broad societal consensus" : "Specifically the author and only the authors opinion, everyone else can fuck off because that's the only opinion they respect"

" whether to proceed is made" : "never to proceed"

"inclusive" : "excludes or ignores anyone who disagrees with us"

" global" : "all decisions to be made based on the opinions of a small number of middle class american arts graduates"

"informed" : "anyone who disagrees with us will be dismissed as uninformed"

"open in scope" : "all objections given infinite air time no matter whether they're coherent or not"

"supported by resources" : "the authors side should be given grants to employ people full time to come up with more inventive objections, anyone on the other side must do so for free"

"and given adequate time." : "infinity years so we can shut it down forever"

"For example, prospective parents may seek to have unaffected children via third-party gametes or adoption." : "we have no problem with litteral standard eugenics, preventing people with heritable diseases from having kids using a justification which would be recognised as evil if applied to any other group"

These are not good people.

Jonathan Cline

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Aug 11, 2020, 1:17:10 AM8/11/20
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"..given adequate time" does not mean "infinite time."  Such extrapolation is ridiculous hyperbole. 


Matt Endrizzi

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Aug 11, 2020, 6:25:50 AM8/11/20
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Two books I would recommend reading before weighing in on this:

The Recombinant DNA Controversy, by Donald Fredrickson 

The Strands of a Life: The Science of DNA and the Art of Education, by Robert Sinsheimer



On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:17 AM, Jonathan Cline <jnc...@gmail.com> wrote:


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Raph N

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Aug 11, 2020, 10:50:23 AM8/11/20
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Such paper does not need the time you're wasting on this :)

David Murphy

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Aug 11, 2020, 11:21:23 AM8/11/20
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> "..given adequate time" does not mean "infinite time."  Such extrapolation is ridiculous hyperbole. 

When people openly support the kind of position that created the awful history of eugenics I'm unwilling to give them any benefit of the doubt.

Apparently they have no problem with restricting people from procreating, all those forced sterilisations weren't a problem for them because "sure they can just adopt", apparently their only problem was with the changes in allele frequency.

Anyone who signed that statement should be viewed as having extremely questionable ethics.


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David Murphy

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Aug 11, 2020, 11:29:18 AM8/11/20
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addendum: there's also, as always, a relevant XKCD:

image.png

When people make open-ended demands like that it's basically never in good faith. The goal is for them to suspend their opponents from any action. 10 years later, 20 years later 30 years later they'll say the exact same thing just as they've been doing for decades already.

They have no intention of ever stopping because a "temporary" hold they can keep extending forever is as good as a win and it means they don't have to make their case very well.


Cathal Garvey

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Aug 11, 2020, 3:17:53 PM8/11/20
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With respect, I disagree: if we refuse to discuss positions like these even on our own fora as lovers of science, then we abdicate entirely the sociology of science to these whataboutists. And they then get to demand policy changes based on an apparently uncontested zeitgeist of scepticism.

That isn't to say we should waste all our time debating basically bad opinions held by fairly thoughtless armchair philosophers, by all means we should be welcoming of more proactive and original ethical discussion here and in other science-positive fora.

But we shouldn't shy from debunking or criticising "statements" like these. I guarantee you this grandiose-sounding "geneva statement" will be referred to in all kinds of anti-medicine rants by goop/ben-and-jerrys sponsored ideologues for a few years to come.

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11 Aug 2020, 15:50 by rap...@gmail.com:

Jonathan Cline

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Aug 11, 2020, 3:27:33 PM8/11/20
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The comic is off by an order of magnitude. Social issues take
multiples of 100 years since that is the human lifespan and it seems
nearly everyone retains the social values they grew up on. However if
technology were able to speed up the adoption of innovations in social
values, then you could reduce those timeframes.


On 8/11/20, David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> addendum: there's also, as always, a relevant XKCD:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> When people make open-ended demands like that it's basically never in good
> faith. The goal is for them to suspend their opponents from any action. 10
> years later, 20 years later 30 years later they'll say the exact same thing
> just as they've been doing for decades already.
>
> They have no intention of *ever *stopping because a "temporary" hold they
> can keep extending forever is as good as a win and it means they don't have
> to make their case very well.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:21 PM David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > "..given adequate time" does not mean "infinite time." Such
>> extrapolation is ridiculous hyperbole.
>>
>> When people openly support the kind of position that *created *the awful
>> history of eugenics I'm unwilling to give them any benefit of the doubt.
>>
>> Apparently they have no problem with restricting people from procreating,
>> all those forced sterilisations weren't a problem for them because *"sure
>> they can just adopt"*, apparently their only problem was with the changes
>> in allele frequency.
>>
>> Anyone who signed that statement should be viewed as having *extremely
>> *questionable
>>>>> *Geneva Statement on Heritable Human Genome Editing: The Need for
>>>>> Course Correction*
>>>>> *Chinese Scientist Who Genetically Edited Babies Gets 3 Years in
>>>>> Prison*

John Griessen

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Aug 12, 2020, 8:28:57 AM8/12/20
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On 8/11/20 2:27 PM, Jonathan Cline wrote:
> The comic is off by an order of magnitude. Social issues take
> multiples of 100 years since that is the human lifespan and it seems
> nearly everyone retains the social values they grew up on.


I read the xkcd cartoon as sarcastic about 10 or 15 years. Which suggests work on what you think is important in parallel with
all the others.

Andrew M

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Sep 26, 2020, 9:14:51 AM9/26/20
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Hi, so I'm new to google groups so I apologize if I'm replying to the wrong post in this thread. I figured it was better than starting a new one.


I have three interests in CRISPR;


1: Deleting my Y chromosome and inducing other edits in a variety of genes such as ADAMTS9, HOXC10, FTO and LRP5 and others to adjust my fat distribution and body shape (I'm transgender;)


>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5701507/

>Elimination of the Y chromosome in vitro and in vivo

>Together, these results indicate that the Y chromosome could be selectively eliminated in vitro and in vivo by CRISPR/Cas9-mediated multiple cuts at chromosome-specific repeated sequences


2: Knocking out my MC1R gene to induce red hair,


3: Knocking out my OCA2 or HERC2 gene to induce blue eyes.


I'm not sure deleting the Y chromosome would actually have any meaningful effect - but knocking in or knocking out various other genes might have an effect on WHR. This could be very beneficial for a transgender person 'passing' as the opposite sex. Considering that Gender Identity Dysorder is a formal diasnosis, and that cosmetic surgery is considered ethically justified in the case of gender transition, how could CRISPR be denied to a transgender seeking genetic 'bodyscupting?' Objectively, good results with traditional fat transfer are hard to achieve, and implants are illegal in the USA (I think.)


The entire ethical justification against cosmetic CRISPR falls apart once you've allowed transgender use of the technology. Why let a transgender delete their Y chromosome, but cis-gendered people (Or transgenders) can't modify their eye or hair color?


In this Geneva statement, as many have already noticed, there's a sentence I find frightening;


'Prospective parents at risk of transmitting a genetic condition already have several options to avoid doing so, should they find them acceptable. For example, prospective parents may seek to have unaffected children via third-party gametes or adoption'


Because as a transgender, if I continue HRT, I'll likely need advanced reproductive technologies if I want biological children. Also, this following sentence seems to contradict the value of third party gametes and adoption;


>In nearly every case, prospective parents at risk of transmitting a genetic condition who wish to avoid doing so and to have genetically related children can accomplish this with the existing embryo screening technique preimplantation genetic diagnosis (PGD) [5]. While PGD also raises troubling ethical questions about what kind of lives we welcome into the world


PGD can and is used to select phenotype. Most white people with brown eyes carry one copy of the blue eye allele - any two whites and many mixed people such as African Americans could obtain a child with blue eyes via PGD.


The legal opposition to PGD in many countries across the planet, and the social opposition in places like the USA reveals why germ line editing is opposed;


'Racism and xenophobia are resurgent around the world'


Which apparently means I can't use CRISPR to give myself blue eyes.


I hate to admit it, but it feels like the anti-CRISPR side has won the debate. It's impossible to get a hold of the Cas9 enzyme or the gRNA unless you're an academic. And the people who have access to it will never use it for anything other than 'genetic diseases.' And albinism seems to be one of those diseases, and my desire to knock out OCA2 and become an albino is probably considered insane. Immortality will probably never happen.


Metaphorically, the pro-CRISPR and anti-CRISPR groups broke a wishbone, and the pro-CRISPR group was on the losing end. And it hurts. It hurts so bad to have been told 'No.' To be forced to continue to live in skin which doesn't feel like your own when a solution exists;


>https://ieet.org/index.php/IEET2/more/hanley20151111

>Make Gender Reassignment Real - A Letter to Dr. Anthony Atala

>Brian Hanley

>Then, gender reassignments are often late in life and the best years are felt to be past. In addition, gender reassignment surgery is more than a little wanting.

>Those who undergo gender reassignment surgery and hormone treatments do not get a sex change. A male to female surgery today will not produce a full biological woman when it is done. A person will likewise not be a full biological man if changing from female to male. This can be very disappointing in a life filled with broken dreams, and people who get surgery can find that their field of potential partners has not expanded, it has narrowed


All I can do is beg other human beings - my supposed equals - for the right to change myself with CRISPR. I'm posting here out of a hope that people will be convinced to allow me and others to modify their Sex Chromosomes and pigmentation.

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