Drug addiction biohacking

[jackson parks]

Hello,

Thank you for letting me in. I'm Jack. A friend of mine named Jonathyn recently quit the idea of engaging in CRISPR CAS9 technology because he found out that it can't do anything for adult humans. We've been trying to find a way to help people with drug addiction, and we got introduced to biohacking. We're interested in being able to change people's nervous systems either through microwave radiation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312845), CRISPR (if it can do anything at all), or whatever other means that don't technically need surgical procedures.

Thank you all, Jack.

[louie anderson]

Hi Jack,

You should look into dopamine blocking therapies. They esstientially have people continue to do the action that they are addicted to, while on a drug that stops the release of dopamine and other feel good chemicals. It's proven very effective and with some tweaking like adding in a negative stimulus while on the dopamine blocking drug everytime they perform the action I think it could be a promiaing avenue for attacking addiction.

Best Wishes,

Louis J Anderson

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[jackson parks]

Thank you for the quick response. Yes, we're very familiar with dopamine blocking, but we're looking to experiment with something a little more radical than that. We're looking to see if the nervous system can be biohacked to prevent future benzodiazapine addictions for those looking for something that extreme. One idea is switching off the GABA receptor's capacity to allow xenobiotic agonists to bind to them. There are also other ways we're looking to do this with things like microwaves.

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 5:59:11 PM UTC-4, louie anderson wrote:

Hi Jack,

You should look into dopamine blocking therapies. They esstientially have people continue to do the action that they are addicted to, while on a drug that stops the release of dopamine and other feel good chemicals. It's proven very effective and with some tweaking like adding in a negative stimulus while on the dopamine blocking drug everytime they perform the action I think it could be a promiaing avenue for attacking addiction.

Best Wishes,

Louis J Anderson

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 14:40 jackson parks <jacksonpar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,

Thank you for letting me in. I'm Jack. A friend of mine named Jonathyn recently quit the idea of engaging in CRISPR CAS9 technology because he found out that it can't do anything for adult humans. We've been trying to find a way to help people with drug addiction, and we got introduced to biohacking. We're interested in being able to change people's nervous systems either through microwave radiation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312845), CRISPR (if it can do anything at all), or whatever other means that don't technically need surgical procedures.

Thank you all, Jack.

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[louie anderson]

Yeah so there's not really good ways that I know of to do this the whole reason the drugs work is because they look like (on a bio molecular level at least) like funky but still functional neurotransmitters, so.if you block your brain from susceptibility to them you also could potentially block it from it's own signals on top of the fact that if you do this via genetic egineering than only the new nerve cells will exhibit the traits you are looking for

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[jackson parks]

What exactly are these new nerve cells you speak of? Genetic engineering can enable us to grow new receptors and all that where they don't respond to xenobiotics? Here's an example of what I was referring to originally: https://norwegianscitechnews.com/2016/07/50000-norwegians-require-more-morphine-than-the-average-joe/  (Notice the part where it says, "And about a hundred people in Norway are completely resistant to opioids such as morphine.") What enables this to happen with the opioid receptors? It's a mutation, but can we genetically alter this in someone who never had this mutation to begin with? And what about other receptors as well, such as GABA, NMDA, dopamine receptors, etc?

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[ruphos]

The "new cells" are the cells that have been altered via CRISPR to have whatever the new material you inserted. Existing neurons won't be affected. So while adult neurogenesis does happen, the maximum effect (assuming it even worked) is going to be restricted to newly grown cells.

That story doesn't link to any source material, but my guess it refers to a mutation that down regulates the expression of mu opioid receptors.  That makes it so the effective signal from the opioids reaches saturation at a level where the physiological effect is quite low. Such mutations are also correlated with increased likelihood to develop opiate addictions since individuals have to start off taking a much higher dose to feel the effect, even before habituation. The circuits relating to physical dependence, however, increase their sensitivity with additional exposure.

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-- Friedrich Nietzsche

[jackson parks]

See that's interesting, because I was also going to mention "sonogenetics". If one were to destroy opioid receptors with ultrasound and let the new CRISPR'd receptors grow (where they're essential defunct and don't do anything), I'm wondering if one could keep deleting a few neurons at a time and let them regrow with the new CRISPR'd ones that have the modified GABA receptors, NMDA receptors, etc. Obviously, I am no scientist, we are in the infant stages of this whole experiment we're looking to try out. So please forgive me if I'm getting this wrong.

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[Nathan McCorkle]

Why not try working to biosynthesize an opioid blocker, like naloxone
or similar, which is synthesized by gut bacteria? Then this
"probiotic" could last quite a while in the gut, until the person
takes too much antibiotic materials. Alternatively you could try using
gene insertion to push this synthesis pathway into whatever cells you
can manage to get it into. Of course getting the biosynthesized dosage
to be correct would require feedback to a gene promoter, etc... which
seems like a pretty tricky part (requiring a lot of testing and
debugging).

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-Nathan

[Cathal Garvey]

Small reminder here that the Opioid system is poorly understood, and having some baseline load of opioid antagonists in one's system is likely to have side effects. Naive guesses: anhedoia, depersonalisation, derealisation. It could even backfire and encourage opioid abuse to restore a base-line of receptor activity.

Or, maybe not. But just something to consider in this whole discussion: opioids are an important contributor to human experience: the same reason that abuse is so destructive.

On 21 September 2019 18:16:56 GMT+01:00, Nathan McCorkle <nmz...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why not try working to biosynthesize an opioid blocker, like naloxone
or similar, which is synthesized by gut bacteria? Then this
"probiotic" could last quite a while in the gut, until the person
takes too much antibiotic materials. Alternatively you could try using
gene insertion to push this synthesis pathway into whatever cells you
can manage to get it into. Of course getting the biosynthesized dosage
to be correct would require feedback to a gene promoter, etc... which
seems like a pretty tricky part (requiring a lot of testing and
debugging).

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:40 PM jackson parks
<jacksonpar...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Hello,

 Thank you for letting me in. I'm Jack. A friend of mine named Jonathyn recently quit the idea of engaging in CRISPR CAS9 technology because he found out that it can't do anything for adult humans. We've been trying to find a way to help people with drug addiction, and we got introduced to biohacking. We're interested in being able to change people's nervous systems either through microwave radiation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312845), CRISPR (if it can do anything at all), or whatever other means that don't technically need surgical procedures.

 Thank you all, Jack.

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[jackson parks]

Ok, I'm liking some of these suggestions. I have another question (anyone can jump in)... can CRISPR CAS9 DIY kits enhance the function of the liver (and other areas of the body) so that the cytochrome P450 enzymes, the ones that destroy and metabolize drugs in the body, can be super enhanced where the quantity of the enzymes are being produced in mega-high quantities? To the point where drugs are being eaten up in a matter of minutes if not seconds if they're introduced in the body?

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 1:17:13 PM UTC-4, Nathan McCorkle wrote:

Why not try working to biosynthesize an opioid blocker, like naloxone
or similar, which is synthesized by gut bacteria? Then this
"probiotic" could last quite a while in the gut, until the person
takes too much antibiotic materials. Alternatively you could try using
gene insertion to push this synthesis pathway into whatever cells you
can manage to get it into. Of course getting the biosynthesized dosage
to be correct would require feedback to a gene promoter, etc... which
seems like a pretty tricky part (requiring a lot of testing and
debugging).

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:40 PM jackson parks
<jacksonpar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Thank you for letting me in. I'm Jack. A friend of mine named Jonathyn recently quit the idea of engaging in CRISPR CAS9 technology because he found out that it can't do anything for adult humans. We've been trying to find a way to help people with drug addiction, and we got introduced to biohacking. We're interested in being able to change people's nervous systems either through microwave radiation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312845), CRISPR (if it can do anything at all), or whatever other means that don't technically need surgical procedures.
>
> Thank you all, Jack.
>
> --

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[Dakota Hamill]

you would break many other functions that class of enzymes does besides just clearing exogenous compounds

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[Darlene Aldente]

Check out D-Cycloserine. a search of "d-cycloserine and addiction" in pub med or google scholar will give you a ton of recent peer reviewed articles. This is an old tuberculosis antibiotic that has been discovered to act on the glutamate receptor int the brain which is central to the neuroplasticity disruption associated with addition. It has shown real results when combined with CBT and the CBT sessions are times with ingestion of the drug. Same method has shown great results for war related PTSD. because the drug increases neuroplasticity, and for other reasons, it has a measurable positive effect on learning (if only I had this drug in college). You Do NOT need to take the full tuberculosis dose, just half. Also, I'm not sure about the duration of treatment.

There is one BIG problem however: the cost. This drug has recently fallen prey to opportunistic "investors."  in 2015 the price of cycloserine increased from $500 for 30 pills to $10,800 Rodelis Therapeutics purchased it. Purdue University, the previous owner, which retained "oversight of the manufacturing operation" intervened and Rodelis returned the drug to an NGO of Purdue University foundation whi8ch now charges $1,050 for 30 capsules. If you discover a way to use the NGO system through wich governments and non-profits obtain the drug for a fraction of the price please let us know!!

[Chris Santos-Lang]

I am worried that applying biology to drug addiction is like applying nuclear fission to warfare. Drug addiction and war are social problems, not biological or physical problems, so bringing in biology and physics really just escalates the arsenal.

How's about applying science to analyze and correct the social problem?

Best Wishes,

Chris Santos-Lang

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[jackson parks]

Well the bottom line is, we're looking to experiment with switching off the GABA receptor's capacity to allow xenobiotic agonists to bind to them, also looking to do this with things like microwaves. We need to have the capacity to shut off only the parts of things like GABA and NMDA to disallow certain chemicals to be agonists/antagonists for them. This doesn't involve warfare, there are some people who are too addicted for rehab or anything similar to do anything for them. We're looking to go into the nervous system and actually shut off parts of the CNS so that drugs can't do anything to them - and we want a way to reverse the process to reestablish everything after they have recovered. I know this is radical, and I'm not familiar with anyone who's accomplished this, but hopefully this gets some sort of a ball rolling.

On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 2:49:21 PM UTC-4, Chris Santos-Lang wrote:

I am worried that applying biology to drug addiction is like applying nuclear fission to warfare. Drug addiction and war are social problems, not biological or physical problems, so bringing in biology and physics really just escalates the arsenal.

How's about applying science to analyze and correct the social problem?

Best Wishes,

Chris Santos-Lang

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 3:27 AM Darlene Aldente <darlene...@gmail.com> wrote:

Check out D-Cycloserine. a search of "d-cycloserine and addiction" in pub med or google scholar will give you a ton of recent peer reviewed articles. This is an old tuberculosis antibiotic that has been discovered to act on the glutamate receptor int the brain which is central to the neuroplasticity disruption associated with addition. It has shown real results when combined with CBT and the CBT sessions are times with ingestion of the drug. Same method has shown great results for war related PTSD. because the drug increases neuroplasticity, and for other reasons, it has a measurable positive effect on learning (if only I had this drug in college). You Do NOT need to take the full tuberculosis dose, just half. Also, I'm not sure about the duration of treatment.

There is one BIG problem however: the cost. This drug has recently fallen prey to opportunistic "investors."  in 2015 the price of cycloserine increased from $500 for 30 pills to $10,800 Rodelis Therapeutics purchased it. Purdue University, the previous owner, which retained "oversight of the manufacturing operation" intervened and Rodelis returned the drug to an NGO of Purdue University foundation whi8ch now charges $1,050 for 30 capsules. If you discover a way to use the NGO system through wich governments and non-profits obtain the drug for a fraction of the price please let us know!!

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 5:40:44 PM UTC-4, jackson parks wrote:

Hello,

Thank you for letting me in. I'm Jack. A friend of mine named Jonathyn recently quit the idea of engaging in CRISPR CAS9 technology because he found out that it can't do anything for adult humans. We've been trying to find a way to help people with drug addiction, and we got introduced to biohacking. We're interested in being able to change people's nervous systems either through microwave radiation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312845), CRISPR (if it can do anything at all), or whatever other means that don't technically need surgical procedures.

Thank you all, Jack.

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[Cathal Garvey]

I'm no biophysicist but.. I'm finding it hard to imagine a way to use microwaves to reliably target only a single protein or conjugate. Even with a mythological control over frequency and amplitude, I'm assuming there would be a very diverse set of proteins and such that would absorb some of it, not to mention the background water and other small molecules?

[jackson parks]

I'll show what I'm referring to:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8962884

[Cathal Garvey]

I'll be blunt and say that to me this looks like a dead end, as far as a practical route. The research you linked was (going by the abstract at least) only examining one system, and cannot have gathered enough data on the other systems or the broader effects to rule out harm.

Even their own abstract ends with: "We suppose that the effect of microwaves is related to the stress reactions of the organism."

This might mean a mild and localised heat stress, or microwave-induced blood-brain-barrier leakage and consequent inflammation, or an increase in ROS and radical formation or misfolding due to enzyme damage. All are possible outcomes IMO from a blanket application of energising radiation.

I would be on the side of preferring social routes to solving addiction epidemics: basic income shows promise, better regulation of drug marketing and decriminalisation/medicalisation seem to be good policies, and there is research into older/newer pharmacological interventions pike psychedelic therapy.

But if a "medicalised silver bullet" is the goal then my money would be on small molecules in this case, as the medicine needs to cross the BBB and temporary antagonism of the right systems might be the simplest way to support behavioural therapies.

But then.. we've been there for years already and have few success stories so far.

[jackson parks]

True true. Few success stories, indeed. That's why we want to go this route. There's another way you can omit these receptors (allegedly), and that's with ultrasound frequencies. We're just beginning this research, and obviously we don't know what will work and what won't yet.

[Raza]

RE: only new neurons

On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 3:23:39 AM UTC+2, louie anderson wrote:

...on top of the fact that if you do this via genetic egineering than only the new nerve cells will exhibit the traits you are looking for

On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 3:56:06 PM UTC+2, ruphos wrote:

The "new cells" are the cells that have been altered via CRISPR to have whatever the new material you inserted. Existing neurons won't be affected. So while adult neurogenesis does happen, the maximum effect (assuming it even worked) is going to be restricted to newly grown cells.

This doesn't sound right to me. Why would your neural stem cells have been affected by your attempt at adult genetic modification, but your ordinary neurons have been passed over? Unless you're injecting pre-modified stem cells into the brain rather than modifying existing cells with a viral vector or something.

If you can modify the DNA of existing neurons, then my judgment is that you should see the changes in the phenotype even of existing neurons. You don't need to regrow the cell from scratch for the new DNA to be used; it would only take so long as the turn-over rate of your receptor proteins, which I think isn't that long. If you cannot modify existing cells, then you're not going to get anything at all into the brain without a surgey-requiring stem cell transplant, not even when new neurons mature.

RE: D-cycloserine

On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 10:27:16 AM UTC+2, Darlene Aldente wrote:

Check out D-Cycloserine. a search of "d-cycloserine and addiction" in pub med or google scholar will give you a ton of recent peer reviewed articles. This is an old tuberculosis antibiotic that has been discovered to act on the glutamate receptor int the brain which is central to the neuroplasticity disruption associated with addition. It has shown real results when combined with CBT and the CBT sessions are times with ingestion of the drug. Same method has shown great results for war related PTSD. because the drug increases neuroplasticity, and for other reasons, it has a measurable positive effect on learning (if only I had this drug in college). You Do NOT need to take the full tuberculosis dose, just half. Also, I'm not sure about the duration of treatment. 

There is one BIG problem however: the cost. This drug has recently fallen prey to opportunistic "investors."  in 2015 the price of cycloserine increased from $500 for 30 pills to $10,800 Rodelis Therapeutics purchased it. Purdue University, the previous owner, which retained "oversight of the manufacturing operation" intervened and Rodelis returned the drug to an NGO of Purdue University foundation whi8ch now charges $1,050 for 30 capsules. If you discover a way to use the NGO system through wich governments and non-profits obtain the drug for a fraction of the price please let us know!!

If the OP were interested in this and the cost were the main obstacle, I'd suggest just going with D-serine instead. It has the same neural mechanism of action and some similar experimental results in cases when both have been used in the same type of experiment, which I'm NOT claiming includes addiction. It's available as a nootropic supplement and ridiculously affordable by comparison; plus, you avoid taking needless antibiotics. I researched this question moderately thoroughly for a tDCS project at some point.