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Dakota Hamill
Oct 18, 2014, 2:04:10 PM10/18/14
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Emotions are more complex than that. You should also include test tubes filled with ethanol and caffeine
On Oct 18, 2014 10:09 AM, "Raj Venkat" <vrg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Proportionate levels as described OK?
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Nathan McCorkle
Oct 18, 2014, 2:28:38 PM10/18/14
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On Oct 18, 2014 11:03 AM, "Dakota Hamill" <dko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Emotions are more complex than that. You should also include test tubes filled with ethanol and caffeine
>
Those aren't endogenous as the others in the pic are though.
Dakota Hamill
Oct 18, 2014, 2:29:25 PM10/18/14
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They might as well be in some people I know
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Nathan McCorkle
Oct 18, 2014, 2:30:52 PM10/18/14
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Personally my bet is schizophrenia has a lot more to do with serotonin-type/tryptophan-derivative molecules than dopamine, but those studies seem like they've been sluggish for the past 50 years.
On Oct 18, 2014 7:09 AM, "Raj Venkat" <vrg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Proportionate levels as described OK?
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Brian Degger
Oct 18, 2014, 2:31:31 PM10/18/14
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Testosterone and estrogen might also have systemic endogenous effects.
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Cathal Garvey
Oct 18, 2014, 2:39:21 PM10/18/14
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There's at least some gross anatomical features to schizophrenia, but
whether these are universal to all cases or just a subclass I don't
know. The fact that cannabis appears to increase risk of schizophrenia
during teens/early-twenties, but not after, would suggest that the
damage is done during brain remodelling, another data point suggesting
schizophrenia is as much or more to do with neuronal structure as it is
neurotransmitter proportions.
On 18/10/14 19:30, Nathan McCorkle wrote:
> Personally my bet is schizophrenia has a lot more to do with
> serotonin-type/tryptophan-derivative molecules than dopamine, but those
> studies seem like they've been sluggish for the past 50 years.
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 7:09 AM, "Raj Venkat" <vrg...@gmail.com
> <mailto:diybio%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>. For more options,
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whether these are universal to all cases or just a subclass I don't
know. The fact that cannabis appears to increase risk of schizophrenia
during teens/early-twenties, but not after, would suggest that the
damage is done during brain remodelling, another data point suggesting
schizophrenia is as much or more to do with neuronal structure as it is
neurotransmitter proportions.
On 18/10/14 19:30, Nathan McCorkle wrote:
> Personally my bet is schizophrenia has a lot more to do with
> serotonin-type/tryptophan-derivative molecules than dopamine, but those
> studies seem like they've been sluggish for the past 50 years.
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 7:09 AM, "Raj Venkat" <vrg...@gmail.com
> <mailto:vrg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Proportionate levels as described OK?
>
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> Proportionate levels as described OK?
>
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Dakota Hamill
Oct 18, 2014, 2:39:55 PM10/18/14
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I can tell you from first hand experience sex steroids have a massive psychological effect. On the other side though brain chemistry is insanely complex and it seems impossible to measure levels of certain neurotransmitters. A cheaper and faster steroid profile test would be great. Immunoassays suck and lcms requires a machine that costs as much as a ferrari
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Cathal Garvey
Oct 18, 2014, 2:48:25 PM10/18/14
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> I can tell you from first hand experience sex steroids have a massive
> psychological effect.
I love how this is technically something anyone over the age of ~16 can
> psychological effect.
say safely, and particularly those over ~23. :)
On 18/10/14 19:39, Dakota Hamill wrote:
> I can tell you from first hand experience sex steroids have a massive
> psychological effect. On the other side though brain chemistry is
> insanely complex and it seems impossible to measure levels of certain
> neurotransmitters. A cheaper and faster
> steroid profile test would be great. Immunoassays suck and lcms
> requires a machine that costs as much as a ferrari
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 2:31 PM, "Brian Degger" <brian....@gmail.com
> <mailto:brian....@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Testosterone and estrogen might also have systemic endogenous effects.
>
> On 18 Oct 2014 20:29, "Dakota Hamill" <dko...@gmail.com
>
> Testosterone and estrogen might also have systemic endogenous effects.
>
> On 18 Oct 2014 20:29, "Dakota Hamill" <dko...@gmail.com
> <mailto:dko...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> They might as well be in some people I know
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 2:28 PM, "Nathan McCorkle" <nmz...@gmail.com
>
> They might as well be in some people I know
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 2:28 PM, "Nathan McCorkle" <nmz...@gmail.com
> <mailto:nmz...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 11:03 AM, "Dakota Hamill" <dko...@gmail.com
>
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 11:03 AM, "Dakota Hamill" <dko...@gmail.com
> <mailto:dko...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Emotions are more complex than that. You should also
> include test tubes filled with ethanol and caffeine
> >
>
> Those aren't endogenous as the others in the pic are though.
>
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> >
> > Emotions are more complex than that. You should also
> include test tubes filled with ethanol and caffeine
> >
>
> Those aren't endogenous as the others in the pic are though.
>
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Dakota Hamill
Oct 18, 2014, 3:05:54 PM10/18/14
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Well mine comes from exogenous addition of testosterone cypionate after failure of my pituitary. I can say supplementation with the help of an endocrinologist has saved my life. 10 years of depression and many other symptoms were gone overnight. I have no doubt that was a result of testosterone, either directly, or indirectly via its action on dopamine, serotonin, etc. I guess in my case I had a more direct observation of the effects of one molecule on my entire body, both mentally and physically.
Nevertheless, from what I've gathered there is no direct route of measurement for things like dopamine or seratonin and other neural signaling molecules within the brain because their concentration within the brain isn't reflected in the blood stream.
Life is crazy! Big ol sack of molecules with feedback loops.
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Raj Venkat
Oct 18, 2014, 3:29:19 PM10/18/14
to Diybio
Yes the increase in adrenaline due coffee and alcohol depression may be picturized.I believe in proportions in the matrix and net causation and result visible to the observer. Can you explain it?
Cathal Garvey
Oct 18, 2014, 3:40:04 PM10/18/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
> Nevertheless, from what I've gathered there is no direct route of
> measurement for things like dopamine or seratonin and other neural
> signaling molecules within the brain because their concentration
> within the brain isn't reflected in the blood stream.
I was deep in this recently, serotonin-wise, and learned a great deal
> measurement for things like dopamine or seratonin and other neural
> signaling molecules within the brain because their concentration
> within the brain isn't reflected in the blood stream.
about the nutrition and biochemistry behind at least some cases of
serotonin-deficient depression (wasn't researching for myself, in case
anyone's wondering). It's fascinating how the blood/brain barrier plays
such a key role in this.
So, while I'm in the mood, here's a brain-dump on depression,
tryptophan, inflammation, and neutriceuticals.
What I learned, simply, was that serotonin doesn't cross the BBB,
instead it is synthesised from Tryptophan in the brain. But, as
tryptophan is transported by the same protein as all the other large,
branched-or-aromatic amino acids, the ratio of these aminos to
tryptophan is important to the rate of tryptophan uptake. To put this
clearly; if you eat too much of the other large branched/aromatic
aminos, less tryptophan enters the brain, even if you have plenty of
circulating tryptophan.
Now; guess which staple protein that forms an abundant part of the
global diet, particularly in the depression-ridden anglicised west,
consists chiefly (after glutamine and alanine) of branched/aromatic
amino acids other than Tryptophan? Gluten.
There was also a lot of interesting research into tryptophan catabolism
pathways, which get upregulated significantly by inflammation cascades
for some reason (which seems counterintuitive, because tryptophan is
necessary for the innate immune response; negative feedback loop,
perhaps?). Not only do these cascades deplete tryptophan efficiently,
they produce side-products that are known to potentiate depressive symptoms.
Systemic inflammation is a phenomenon implicated in all the classic
diseases of the wealthy; obesity, depression/psychosis, acquired
diabetes/metabolic syndrome, cancer. And, part of the causal role in
depression appears to be how inflammation triggers degradation of
tryptophan.
Now, again; guess which staple protein is known to digest down to
inflammatory peptides, which persons of Caucasian descent in particular
are prone to allergies towards? Yep: Gluten again.
Anyways, apart from limiting large, neutral, branched/aromatic aminos
relative to tryptophan, and apart from limiting gluten intake in
particular, it seems reducing risk of systemic inflammation overall
could be of significant benefit in helping to alleviate
serotonin-dependent depression. After all; SSRIs effectively make a
little serotonin go a long way, but the root cause is low serotonin, right?
For that reason, the third guideline appears to be "include
anti-inflammatory agents in your daily diet/regimen". There are loads of
such ingredients, almost all of them plant-derived, and many of them as
unesoteric as it gets; sufficient fibre is known to reduce inflammation,
help prevent obesity, increase satiety, and improve mood. But, for some
special ones, I'm looking at turmeric and resveratrol, because they're
well-regarded as wonder-drugs generally.
And in that vein, as a final diet-hax pro-tip; both curcumin and
resveratrol are known to be beneficial in many ways, but also of poor
bioavailability due to gluconuridation in the intestines. How to prevent
gluconuridation of these compounds, and improve their bioavailability?
Take them with black pepper; the piperine (pungency compound) in pepper
inhibits gluconuridation, and improves bioavailability of both curcumin
and resveratrol dramatically.
Expect a less brain-dumpy version of this someday soon on my blog, with
references, some data-driven suggestions on amino-balanced diet, and
perhaps even suggestions on incorporating curcumin and resveratrol into
the diet enjoyably. Perhaps I should even lean-pub it. But, as I was in
the mood to brain-dump tonight, and as DIYbio often enjoys discussion of
metabolomic hax and diet, here's the preview. :)
> <mailto:brian....@gmail.com>__>> wrote:
>
> Testosterone and estrogen might also have systemic
> endogenous effects.
>
> On 18 Oct 2014 20:29, "Dakota Hamill" <dko...@gmail.com
> <mailto:dko...@gmail.com>
>
> Testosterone and estrogen might also have systemic
> endogenous effects.
>
> On 18 Oct 2014 20:29, "Dakota Hamill" <dko...@gmail.com
> <mailto:dko...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:dko...@gmail.com <mailto:dko...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> They might as well be in some people I know
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 2:28 PM, "Nathan McCorkle"
> <nmz...@gmail.com <mailto:nmz...@gmail.com>
>
> They might as well be in some people I know
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 2:28 PM, "Nathan McCorkle"
> <nmz...@gmail.com <mailto:nmz...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:nmz...@gmail.com <mailto:nmz...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 11:03 AM, "Dakota Hamill"
> <dko...@gmail.com <mailto:dko...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:dko...@gmail.com
>
>
> On Oct 18, 2014 11:03 AM, "Dakota Hamill"
> <dko...@gmail.com <mailto:dko...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:dko...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > Emotions are more complex than that. You should
> also
> include test tubes filled with ethanol and caffeine
> >
>
> Those aren't endogenous as the others in the pic
> are though.
>
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> > Emotions are more complex than that. You should
> also
> include test tubes filled with ethanol and caffeine
> >
>
> Those aren't endogenous as the others in the pic
> are though.
>
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Nathan McCorkle
Oct 18, 2014, 5:07:51 PM10/18/14
to diybio
--
Looking at the levels as-is.. I wonder if people see the schizophrenic and then the love and depression areas, and wonder what about a schizophrenic that is in love or that is depressed.
Also your happiness area suggests that is what happens when serotonin is at its max... but really that's when serotonin syndrome sets in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome#Signs_and_symptoms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome#Signs_and_symptoms
Nathan McCorkle
Oct 19, 2014, 1:31:03 AM10/19/14
to diybio
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Cathal Garvey <cathal...@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Now; guess which staple protein that forms an abundant part of the global diet, particularly in the depression-ridden anglicised west, consists chiefly (after glutamine and alanine) of branched/aromatic amino acids other than Tryptophan? Gluten.
(cow) Milk too is pretty plentiful in tryptophan.
I am glad you found the black pepper turmeric synergy! I learned of that a few years ago, all the better for cooking!
Cathal Garvey
Oct 19, 2014, 3:58:13 AM10/19/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
I haven't yet done an amino-by-amino review of common total foods, but
the ratio of Tryptophan:Other is more important than the total amount of
tryptophan.
For example, tryptophan supplementation shows mixed results depending on
whether it is taken at meal-times or between meals; between meals, lots
of studies show it directly boosts serotonin levels (though excess
serotonin may get converted to melotonin!), whereas if taken with meals
results are conflicting but generally negative.
On the other hand studies of meals which either naturally or by design
have a higher Tryp:Other-large-neutral ratio seem to show
serotoninogenic benefit. So, the question is whether Milk has a good
ratio, rather than quantity.
Oddly though, if Milk has a good ratio, there may be more afoot because
there is one study that suggested milk protein was as depressive as
gluten. However, I'm inclined to think that high protein diets generally
may have depreessive effects, though this is hunch-material right now.
By the by; don't neglect your carbohydrates! Apparently turkey meals
have no spectacular amount of tryptophan, but they tend to be eaten with
lots of carbs, which trigger resorption of amino acids by muscle tissue;
this artificially enriches the blood Tryptophan:Other ratio, leading to
absorption of Tryptophan to the brain that isn't justified by the amino
ratio alone. So, complex carbs and starches may play a role too.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CA%2B82U9L_H-7ZPsOHRqLmvSQZWTfjkaSMAnAh8ULUGZdDoCEZEQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
the ratio of Tryptophan:Other is more important than the total amount of
tryptophan.
For example, tryptophan supplementation shows mixed results depending on
whether it is taken at meal-times or between meals; between meals, lots
of studies show it directly boosts serotonin levels (though excess
serotonin may get converted to melotonin!), whereas if taken with meals
results are conflicting but generally negative.
On the other hand studies of meals which either naturally or by design
have a higher Tryp:Other-large-neutral ratio seem to show
serotoninogenic benefit. So, the question is whether Milk has a good
ratio, rather than quantity.
Oddly though, if Milk has a good ratio, there may be more afoot because
there is one study that suggested milk protein was as depressive as
gluten. However, I'm inclined to think that high protein diets generally
may have depreessive effects, though this is hunch-material right now.
By the by; don't neglect your carbohydrates! Apparently turkey meals
have no spectacular amount of tryptophan, but they tend to be eaten with
lots of carbs, which trigger resorption of amino acids by muscle tissue;
this artificially enriches the blood Tryptophan:Other ratio, leading to
absorption of Tryptophan to the brain that isn't justified by the amino
ratio alone. So, complex carbs and starches may play a role too.
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Raj Venkat
Oct 19, 2014, 4:12:42 AM10/19/14
to Diybio
Now rape is big topic.Muslims in ISIS rape young Yazdi girls.Any connection between Muslim food and rapes and serotonin levels at schizophrenia syndrome..Libido levels and pain release thought to be animalistic in moral sense has this route.More meat ,purines and Into compounds facilitate more libido in men and women.
Further the proportion sissy's in population is on the increase.Any food connection? As rightly pointed tryptophan, gluten, testosterone and ldopa intermediate the matrix how? Any comments.
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Cathal (Phone)
Oct 19, 2014, 5:11:14 AM10/19/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
Lol WTF
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Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Dakota Hamill
Oct 19, 2014, 12:55:58 PM10/19/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
That's some next level trollin
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/E17D95BA-2139-471C-AAAF-78120688699F%40cathalgarvey.me.
John Griessen
Oct 19, 2014, 1:44:12 PM10/19/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
On 10/18/2014 02:39 PM, Cathal Garvey wrote:
> s DIYbio often enjoys discussion of metabolomic hax and diet, here's the preview.
Thanks for the notes on seratonin promoters and inflammation reducers.
> s DIYbio often enjoys discussion of metabolomic hax and diet, here's the preview.
What is the clinical definition of fibre? Fruits only, or including
any roots or leafy vegetables?
John Griessen
Oct 19, 2014, 1:45:22 PM10/19/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
On 10/19/2014 11:55 AM, Dakota Hamill wrote:
> That's some next level trollin
Advanced use of lures...
> That's some next level trollin
Cathal (Phone)
Oct 19, 2014, 1:47:17 PM10/19/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
Broadly speaking "undigested polycarbohydrates", broken into two loose categories: those that are solubleish and those that aren't. Both are beneficial but I think soluble is better? You'd expect more soluble (pectin-rich) fibre in fruits and soft matter than roots, I would guess.
scoc...@gmail.com
Oct 19, 2014, 7:12:40 PM10/19/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
Unfortunately, I don't believe that is actually trolling. language barrier aside, its a genuine question that should be addressed regardless of the outlandish claims. At least for the good of furthering education and attempting to thwart ignorance on a very inflammatory subject. Could someone post a well written response to said statement? I'd feel bad dismissing it just as trolling simply because of a different and/or narrow point of view.
Sebastian S. Cocioba
CEO & Founder
New York Botanics, LLC
Plant Biotech R&D
Sebastian S. Cocioba
CEO & Founder
New York Botanics, LLC
Plant Biotech R&D
From: John Griessen
Sent: 10/19/2014 1:45 PM
To: diy...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [DIYbio] Re: Please comment on the picture ...
On 10/19/2014 11:55 AM, Dakota Hamill wrote:
> That's some next level trollin
Advanced use of lures...
> That's some next level trollin
Advanced use of lures...
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John Griessen
Oct 20, 2014, 12:21:43 AM10/20/14
to diy...@googlegroups.com
On 10/19/2014 06:12 PM, scoc...@gmail.com wrote:
> attempting to thwart ignorance on a very inflammatory subject.
It's so flaming explosive we can't effectively talk about it here on the internet...
> attempting to thwart ignorance on a very inflammatory subject.
Kinda like Jen's "discussion".
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