Extract egg cells from "monthly" ? Possible? Ethical?

[Mega [Andreas Sturm]]

Hi everyone,

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I just came of the idea, that a women loses an egg cell around once a month.
Does anyone have a clue whether it is possible to kind of extract the cell and then have a look on it under the microscope?
I heared those cells are pretty big, so you could even see them with youre bare eye.

Given their size, couldn't you just let the red liquid through a filter, then the big egg cell stays above?

And, one second thought, are those cells still alive when out of body? I mean, they survive 5 days travelling to their destination, sitting there few days, and then are expelled. There won't be mechanism to induce apoptosis I think, because it dies anyway when out of body?

[leaking pen]

You'd be looking for a single cell in a sea.  Needles in haystacks aint got nuttinn on that.

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[Mega [Andreas Sturm]]

Yeah, but the cell was said to be very big. And erythrocytes should be a lot smaller....

[scriptdoc]

No human eggs are very tiny indeed. and the ones that do not get fertilized are absorbed back into the body they do not enter the menstral blood.

Do you mind if I ask, what you want to do with human oocytes?

[Mega [Andreas Sturm]]

Maybe one'd need something to prevent the clumping of blood platelets, but that substance shouldn't destroy/kill the egg cell...

mosquitoes inject such a substance IIRC...

[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

Good question! Particularly considering that ova, while amazing in the sense that they're half of a potential person, are structurally unremarkable as cells..

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[SC]

Um, women release an egg each month during ovulation, not menstruation.  Different part of the cycle, different time of the month.   Just sayin'.  

 

The best way to get human ova is to superovaulate a woman then collect the eggs in an outpatient procedure.  The process is normally done for egg donors and women undergoing IVF treatment.  I know some extra IVF embros are used for research, maybe the eggs could be, too.  I'm pretty sure you'd have to go through the official route, though. 

 

[Nathan McCorkle]

Here's a protocol and bill of materials for doing it in mice... long
list though!
http://mutagenetix.utsouthwestern.edu/protocol/protocol_rec.cfm?pid=22

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[SC]

There's a lot of good advice about safety on this group, but not a lot on lab animal care.  I do hope no one will do painful things to animals in the name of diy bio. Following a protocol is simply not enough, one needs proper training for surgical procedures on animals. I would like to assume this goes without saying.

[Nathan McCorkle]

I'm pretty sure even commercial labs aren't supposed to do painful
things to animals in the name of anything. The labs that don't follow
the animal welfare laws stay afloat though, just look up Santa Cruz
Biotech, simply paying fines seems to be OK today, for some reason.

[Dakota Hamill]

I've heard from a few people I know that work at one of the most respected antibody companies in the country say Santa Cruz is their biggest competitor, mainly because they have about 75,000 antibodies to offer, but supposedly most of pretty bad quality and purity.  Quantity vs quality I guess.

I suppose there will always be companies that make OK to crappy products and charge less money and those that make premium products and charge for it.  You get what you pay for as the old adage goes.

I remember when bodybuilding.com got fined a bunch of money for putting steroids in their "all natural hormone booster".  Who knows whether the fines were significant to their overall cash flow but, it's odd when a company can do illegal things, and the cash-flow generated from those services/products heavily outweighs the fines they receive.  

[Andreas Sturm]

> Um, women release an egg each month during ovulation, not menstruation.

Isn't it that the egg wanders from the ovary into the cervix during ovulation? And by menstruating it is excreted out off the body?

German wikipedia says that each ovulation yields 10-20 follicles (egg cells+accompanying cells). So 9 to 19 egg cells are useless and perhaps be excreted to? Discarded with urine?

As you probably noticed, I'm not a gynaecologist :P Pretty complicated stuff.

And in english even more complicated :D

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[Andreas Sturm]

> The best way to get human ova is to superovaulate a woman then collect the eggs in an outpatient procedure

Actually that doesn't sound like an ethical/appropriate diy bio activity :D

Just collecting excess blood or urine does not interfere with human body, so you can be sure you leave no scars...

[Rikke Rasmussen]

Menstruation only happens if the ovum is not fertilized on it's way through the fallopian tube, in which case the ovum disintegrates, and the uterine lining is shed.

I don't think there's much chance of recovering a viable egg cell from the menstrual flow, but if you were going to try anyway, you'd probably do well to ally yourself with a woman who uses a menstrual cup rather than pads or tampons, as you'd want to be able to collect the blood directly. Also keep in mind that menstruation lasts at least 4-5 days (usually heaviest on days 2-3), so you'd probably need to either process samples continuously, or figure out a way to keep the first samples from coagulating in cold storage?

/Rikke

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[Andreas Sturm]

Just read through all again, and came to think of something related... Is it feasible to induce over-ovulation in a dog, and then harvest the cells in a diy manner?

Will it hurt the dog? Any side-effects?

And finally, if you had a micromanipulator (quite expensive), could you put human nucleus into dog egg cells to make human stem cells? Mitochondria will be dog mitochondria, but I guess that won't do harm.

Can you buy dog egg cells? Or frog egg cells (ok, inducing human nucleus into a frog egg cell would be yukky)?

On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:40 PM, Cat Ferguson <carolinetay...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Andreas Sturm <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:

Isn't it that the egg wanders from the ovary into the cervix during ovulation? And by menstruating it is excreted out off the body?

German wikipedia says that each ovulation yields 10-20 follicles (egg cells+accompanying cells). So 9 to 19 egg cells are useless and perhaps be excreted to? Discarded with urine?

...no. Guys. Funny as this has been to read, I think we all need a recap of basic biology.

One egg is released into the oviduct during ovulation, during which it is available briefly for fertilization. During menstruation the uterine lining, which had prepared for a fertilized egg to implant, is shed. The egg degrades, and it's not possible to recover it - and even if it is excreted rather than absorbed, it's no longer going to be fertile. Eggs are only viable 12-24 hours after being released.

IVF makes the ovaries start to develop a ton of extra eggs, which are then harvested by sticking a needle through the vagina and into the follicles (each follicle holds one egg). 

Urine is unrelated to the ovaries, as it comes out of the urethra. I know it's in the same neighborhood, but it doesn't seem that hard to keep them separate. 

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[Brian Degger]

Why do you want to do this?
Motivation is part of the story.

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[Brian Degger]

It is licenced for a few research groups in uk for cytoplasmic (rabbit/cow egg with human nuceus) hybrids.
Not diy though.

On 24 Aug 2013 10:30, "cat ferguson" <carolinetay...@gmail.com> wrote:

ASSUMING follicle stimulating drugs can be accessed by laypersons and work on dogs (super unlikely). You'd have to anesthetize the dog, since you have to stick a big needle through its vagina into its follicles, generally guided by an ultrasound, since follicles are tiny. That's not DIY, that's a veterinary procedure. 

Also ew. What. If DIY human-animal SCNT isn't illegal, it probably should be.

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[Andreas Sturm]

Mhm, seems legit...

http://www.ecocyte-us.com/products_oocytes.html

Here frog egg cells are sold, but I guess you could also collect them from female frogs for free. That does not harm the frog, because she lays them.

So one could at least see egg cells, and experiment a bit. Of course, no genetic engineering involved, as that would be illegal.

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[Karberg Sascha]

... And combining a species' nuclear genome with a different species' mitochondrial genome is already considered to be genetic engineering and is certainly illegal in germany and as far as I know in Austria, too. 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

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[Brian Degger]

It's actually nontechnicaly germline engineering,

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[Mega [Andreas Sturm]]

Making genetic fusions like protoplast fusion is an exception (explizitly mentioned) in the "genetic engineering security law" in Austria.

While this is perfectly legal, it still changes the genetic material and mitochondria are shared.

[Cathal Garvey]

Protoplast fusion would usually be assumed to be inter-species,
distinct from nuclear transfer. So no, I don't think that's legal in
Austria!

On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 07:46:01 -0700 (PDT)

"Mega [Andreas Sturm]" <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mega [Andreas Sturm]]

Ok, would be too expensive anyway to get a micromanipulator/ microinjector device....

But the basic "research" with frog egg cells would be easy to accomplish, right?

[Cathal Garvey]

Provided they are not endangered or protected in your region, then
sure, within the boundaries established to protect vertebrates from
unnecessarily painful research.

Given that frogs remain vertebrates, and can meaningfully suffer, I
sincerely suggest you abandon this line of research, whatever it might
be, and restrict yourself to the old standbys of animal developmental
research; drosophila melanogaster. They are trivial to cultivate, there
are abundant protocols online to handle everything you might want to
achieve, they're cheap, and their capacity to fear or suffer is far
below that of even the simplest vertebrate.

Fruit flies sound bothersome, because they can fly and all, but they
are usually anaesthetised by adding a drop of an alcohol mix to their
cultivation flask prior to opening it.

On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 12:34:20 -0700 (PDT)

"Mega [Andreas Sturm]" <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Andreas Sturm]

That sounds feasible too... And they (or similar organisms) are easy to get, when you incubate fruits at room temperature. And easy to cultivate.

Btw., I don't think that an oozyte can "suffer" in the sense of feeling pain. So going in the woods and steeling frog eggs and microscoping them would not cause that much suffering, right?

[Andreas Sturm]

I mean "stealing" in the sense of stealing it from the frog. Not entering proprietary woods  :D

[SC]

I'm not sure what you mean by basic "research" (quotes yours), but I would encourage you to at least get some basic information on reproductive biology before you do anything else.

Eggs cannot be retrieved from human menstrual fluid. They also cannot be retrieved from urine.

I'm not sure what you intended to do to your dog, but I'd really hate to be a pet in your house.

 

It seems you are interested in human-animal hybrids.  Perhaps you could start by reviewing some basic information on developmental biology and comparisons between humans and animals. There's a lot of biochemistry and genetics to learn before you start digging into Fluffy.

 

 

[Brian Degger]

Still interested in what your motivation is Andreas. 

;)

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[Andreas Sturm]

My motivation?

I read about tissue regeneration and stem cells, and remembered the basic things I heared about cloning.

I mean, it's clear that I can't work aseptically enough to produce embryonic stem cells in my basement (leave away the expensive equipment^^)

But it would at least be nice to just handle egg cells (the same will be true for stem cells then), to get an idea how it is done. How not to treat them so they burst, etc.

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[Brian Degger]

Look at all the different model organisms out there. 

http://edugraphic.co.uk/image/33291897092

(would love to see zebrafish and xenoopus lavis on it too) 

Drosophila melanogaster is a good trade off,  

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[SC]

One way you might be able to do cell culture at home is to start with plants.  You could learn the basic of keeping things sterile, making media, etc.  Many people do plant cell culture at home and keep them sterile, and it doesn't require expensive equipment.

 

 

[Cathal Garvey (Phone)]

Eggs != Stem cells. Very different morphology and cellular characteristics between gamete and zygote: conception involves some pretty magic stuff!

Also, this probably goes without saying, but even if you had perfect sterility, don't self administer cell therapies. O_o

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[spid...@gmail.com]

If your interest is in handling something capable of producing a living thing can I suggest mushroom cultivation? It requires pretty sanitary conditions but can also be very forgiving. You can have a lot of fun cloning and selectively culturing all with relatively simple processes. Just a good place to start if nothing else. A way to get some sanitation experience.

Good luck!

Alex

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[SC]

On Monday, August 26, 2013 7:37:24 AM UTC-4, Cathal Garvey (Phone) wrote:

Eggs != Stem cells. Very different morphology and cellular characteristics between gamete and zygote: conception involves some pretty magic stuff!

 

...and frog eggs that you might find in a pond are actually early-stage embryos. 

 

While I normally would encourage DIYbio folks to study at home, I think in this case a class on intro biology might be a good idea to give the OP a good understanding of the basics.

 

 

[Mega [Andreas Sturm]]

http://pimm.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/collect-and-fedex-menstrual-stem-cells-with-the-celle-kit-the-next-flow/

Seems I actually was not that wrong. Stem cells from menstrual blood.

But, not using the egg cells...






On Sunday, August 11, 2013 6:09:06 PM UTC+2, Mega [Andreas Sturm] wrote:

Hi everyone,

---- ----- Those with a strong sense of shame should not read on --- -----


I just came of the idea, that a women loses an egg cell around once a month.
Does anyone have a clue whether it is possible to kind of extract the cell and then have a look on it under the microscope?
I heared those cells are pretty big, so you could even see them with youre bare eye.

Given their size, couldn't you just let the red liquid through a filter, then the big egg cell stays above?

And, one second thought, are those cells still alive when out of body? I mean, they survive 5 days travelling to their destination, sitting there few days, and then are expelled. There won't be mechanism to induce apoptosis I think, because it dies anyway when out of body?

[SC]

Yeah, um, no.

An offer to freeze strangers' tampons or whatever for $500 does not constitute a valid scientific claim. 
Some hints from the website:

>Unfortunately we’re short of strict scientific details

uh huh.

>I guess the professional jargon would rather call those cells stromal cells as they are not adult stem
>cells in the sense of being in the adult organism throughout the life and retaining some renewing capacity.

Sorry, not the same thing.

What a very odd business model.

Mega, since you have an interest in eggs and stem cells, you may want to familiarize yourself with the procedures that are normally used.