FW: [austincats-gg] Class Update

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Jim Rehage

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Apr 26, 2022, 8:08:31 PM4/26/22
to Roger Howard, divis...@googlegroups.com

Roger,

I’m forwarding this email train to you.  I welcome any thoughts that you have.

 

Jim,

Thanks for doing the scoring for the 2022 HCR.  Having done scoring at AYC years ago, I know that it is a sometimes stressful and usually unappreciated task.   I think you did a great job preparing for and throughout the event and I take no exception the results.  My reasons for pursuing discussion of the SCHRS system is to gain a better understanding, including its use by local organizations, and to provide insights on how to answer future participant’s questions that are bound to be asked.

 

My specific question regarding the present regatta is whether a boat captain should be allowed to use a rating that differs from the official class rating for a specific event because they decided to change their sail plan to accommodate the expected wind conditions?  As a hypothetical example, the SCHRS website lists a rating of 1.000 for the F-18 class.  For a given event, is an F-18 skipper allowed to use a higher rating because they weren’t comfortable carrying the gennaker due to predicted high winds? Would that work for a class sanctioned event?  For the 2022 HCR, it appears that two spin boats chose not to carry a spin and were allowed to use an adjusted rating that was higher. 

 

We understand that the SCHRS rating calculator allows various ratings to be generated for a given boat based on varying sail plans and crew numbers.  I wonder if it is the intention of the SCHRS organization to allow a sailor to optimize their boat’s rating for a specific event, or instead, be required to use a single rating for all events hosted by that particular organizing authority (OA)?  Or is that a decision that SCHRS defers to the OA, Div6 in this case?  I will defer to the SCHRS subject-matter experts on that question. In the case of Div6, I’m not aware of a specific policy on this issue.

 

As an analogy, let me offer the Texas Offshore Multihull Organization (TOMA) that generates PHRF ratings that are used by several Texas OAs.  Each boat is required to have a TOMA certificate generated by the official handicapper based on factors including predicted and historical performance for like boats, boat weight, sail plan dimensions, number of sails, etc.  Regarding sail plan dimensions, each boat is rated based on the maximum dimensions of all sails allowed by class rules and that are available for use  Sailors can forego use of a specific sail or use smaller-sized sails for a particular race; however, the boat’s rating does not change.  That seems like a reasonable and equitable solution that allow owners to optimize their boat’s performance without penalizing an owner who uses stock sails exclusively.

 

I welcome all comments.

 

Best,

 

Jim Rehage

 

 

From: Jim Rehage
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2022 12:17 AM
To: Jim Casto <jca...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [austincats-gg] Class Update

 

We’re on the same page, I think.  Again, I offer to compile the Div6 and AYC beach cat rating info if there is an interest.

 

From: Jim Casto <jca...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 7:10 PM
To: austi...@googlegroups.com; Jim Rehage <jimr...@outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [austincats-gg] Class Update

 

Thanks for the input.

 

This exercise is kinda twofold.

a) avoid extra work for regatta organizer, PRO & scorer at last minute.  Have a database that is visible.

b) avoid hard feelings between competitor, by being transparent about what they "declare" as their rating, and why it is that rating.

 

There are definitely many boats that are straight outta the list.  Mut we do have some  solo sailors, others remove the jib, nonspin, add a jib, etc.  I don't think SCHRS was really set up to encourage or accommodate adjusting numbers often (maybe only annually?), but adjustments are a "feature" some non one-design sailors have become used to.

 

Jim Casto

 

On Monday, April 25, 2022, 06:55:24 PM CDT, Galway, Shannon <s.ga...@fng.com> wrote:

 

 

Jim,

If the purpose of the database is for pure enjoyment of development, I can see that.  However, it seems like this would be mostly redundant to what is already developed?  The SCHRS main table covers 90% of situations (class legal boats).  The SCHRS has a quite sophisticated set of formulas that will cover the next 9% (nearly class legal).  The last 1% are the true Frankenstein boats, these situations probably need some backup and documentation.  I can count on one hand the number of boats in Texas that would fall into the last bucket (I’m looking at you Tuma 😊).

 

https://schrs.com/ratings.html

 

If you want to follow the letter of the SCHRS system, those last two bucket situations should actually be measured by a US Sailing measurer and obtain a certificate from SCHRS valid for one year.  I realize that is a serious PITA and probably not something we would enforce, but it is in the rules for such situations.

 

https://schrs.com/rules.html

 

At the end of the day, it’s the competitors responsibility to ensure they meet their class rules (or have a correct SCHRS number).  Validating the numbers isn’t something a regatta organizer should trouble themselves with.  If we don’t want to mess with the measurement certificates, then you have to take them at their word.  That’s what sets our sport apart from most others, we are self policing.  If there is no technical committee, questionable numbers should really be handled between competitors as a protest.

 

But again, if this is a data mining exercise, I get that.  I just feel most of the info in the database will be redundant to what is already out there.

 

Thanks,

 

Shannon Galway, P.E.

VP of Technical Services

 

Friede & Goldman, Ltd.

3151 Briarpark Dr., Suite 800

Houston, Texas 77042

713-952-3444

s.ga...@fng.com

 

Confidentiality Notice:  This electronic message transmission (and/or the documents accompanying it) may contain confidential or privileged information belonging to the sender, which is protected under trade secret, unfair competition, and copyright laws.  If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender by telephone at (713) 952-3444 immediately.

 

 

 

From: austi...@googlegroups.com <austi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Allen Bruns <reno...@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, April 25, 2022 at 16:56
To: austi...@googlegroups.com <austi...@googlegroups.com>, Jim Rehage <Jimr...@outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [austincats-gg] Class Update

I would like to show my interest.

Thank You

 

 

On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 6:15 PM Jim Rehage <jimr...@outlook.com> wrote:

I talked to Roger Poe yesterday about how Div6 handles SCHRS ratings and I now understand just how informal the process is (no official Div6 handicapper).  He also mentioned that he had heard folks discuss that it would be worthwhile to have the various boat ratings spreadsheets compiled into a database/library of some fashion but that no one had volunteered.  I told him that I would be willing to accept the task if there was interest.  Of course,  I'd like guidance from someone more tech savvy,  like Mr. Casto,  on the best way to develop and maintain the ratings library.

 

JimR

 

From: austi...@googlegroups.com <austi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Allen Bruns <reno...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2022 2:50:44 PM
To: austi...@googlegroups.com <austi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [austincats-gg] Class Update

 

Ok.. thx

 

On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 1:43 PM Charles Richardson <crich...@gt.rr.com> wrote:

I want to race without spinnaker this weekend and need my rating changed to 1.165

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From Ricky Richardson

 

 

On Apr 18, 2022, at 1:41 PM, Jim Casto <jca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



Allen - when you get feedback from skippers about their SCHRS rating, and the feedback is "my ratingis X because we used it at last regatta", it is because the skipper has provided a SCHRS worksheet showing the SCHRS number that comes out, when the appropriate factors are entered. 

 

 For instance, in your case, singlehanding a Tornado, it is quite straightforward to take the published numbers from SCHRS for Tornado, enter the values int eh downloadable spreadsheet, and change crew form 2 to 1.  That's how your SCHRS number is generated.  It's not really an "exception", it is an "SCHRS rating".

That is what is going on for all the boats who are not stock, and are not in the SCHRS published table online.  Each one of those boats could/should have a spreadsheet showing how hte number is arrived at.

 

 

As Chris points out, for all the 2021 regattas, and 2022 Ides, these SCHRS handicap values are used consistently for the Div6 skippers.

 

I am sure it would be a valuable service to Div6, Div6 fleet captains, and regatta chairs, if someone would volunteer to form a  Div6 ratings committee, and set up a Div6 ratings storehouse/web page.

 

Jim Casto

 

 

On Monday, April 18, 2022, 01:28:52 PM CDT, Allen Bruns <reno...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

       Jim Rehage, and I have seeked guidance on the SCHRS ratings tables with boats that are not referenced.

We have captains explain that we should just rely on previous ratings of other regattas instead.

      If we are to adopt these exceptions instead of SCHRS, then we as a group should vote to adopt these historical ratings regardless of being verified.

      Most importantly that adoption leaves out the question of where did these values come from ? How where they derived?

We all have lots to do. It is just we are trying to our jobs for the entire group. 

And importantly Thank You for your support in this matter!

 

On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 1:12 PM Jim Rehage <jimr...@outlook.com> wrote:

I know what SCHRS is and how it works. I know that ratings for most catamaran models are available on the SCHRS website, but unfortunately, not all (ex., N5.5 Uni, P19MX). Also, we have 2-crew boats that are sailed solo below the class minimum crew weight and boats that have modifications such as square top mains, etc. These boats need boat-specific ratings. F18s are easy - the rating is 1.000.

 

From: austi...@googlegroups.com <austi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mike Beuerlein <mike.be...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 8:25:37 PM
To: austi...@googlegroups.com <austi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [austincats-gg] Class Update

 

Rehage,

 

Google: "SCHRS rating origin"

 

We've got other things to do.

 

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com

 

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 5:45 PM Chris Holley <chol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Schrs is a measurement formula.   It is fairly accurate and weve been using it on thr coast for a while now.  They have a history and a downloadable spreadsheet to work up your boat with.

Captain Chris Holley
713-213-8388
Pilot M/V Canvasback

 

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022, 22:46 Jim Rehage <jimr...@outlook.com> wrote:

If we are adopt these SCHRS ratings for AYC regattas,  I'd like to know where they originated. 

 

From: austi...@googlegroups.com <austi...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jim Casto <jca...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2022 9:56:46 AM
To: austi...@googlegroups.com <austi...@googlegroups.com>; Allen Bruns <reno...@gmail.com>; Peter Lange <pete...@gmail.com>; markzo...@yahoo.com <markzo...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [austincats-gg] Class Update

 

My SCHRS rating is the one used by PRO for last 3 regattas.

 

The Hobie 20 SCHRS rating is the same as was used at Ides of March.

 

Jim Casto

 

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 9:55, Allen Bruns

We are gaining momentum...!!!

Rumours are another F-18 and Hobie 16 will be joining

I have called Mark Biscotto about joining as well.

Split into three classes now.

 

Outstanding rating issues

1. Chris, We need clarification on your boat setup. Is your boat MX ? We may need to adjust.

2. My Tornado now has a crew!

3. Hobie Miracle 20...Where did this rating come from ?

4. Jim Casto, could you elaborate your rating source ?

 

We now have Three Boats on the water.

Mike Butler: Three people

Phil Bautista: Two

Race Committee: Duke, Rodger and one other.

Hopefully Brigette can help with Beach Captain.

 

I have added Fleet A/B as a column. Please set your Fleet.

 

 

 

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Jim Casto

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Apr 26, 2022, 8:29:17 PM4/26/22
to jimr...@outlook.com, Roger Howard, Chris Reuwsaat, divis...@googlegroups.com
This is such a [negative adjective deleted] comment / question for the environment in which we sail in Div6.  We can barely get 15 cats to a regatta, and yet you want to enforce some relatively arbitrary additional "rule" on which the skippers will be even less motivated to sail together. 

Any given regatta can publish any particular restrictions on classes, handicap adjustments, etc.  If you feel that strongly, just go to regattas that have such restrictions.
Be aware some of those regattas probably won't let Weta race, or a Searail, since none of those have a real SCHRS number.

Regardless, I do not support any blanket restriction for Div 6 regattas.

If Div6 wants to be super-strict about SCHRS, that is a longer debate, which should include the *cat sailors* who have been sailing cats in open handicap cat sailing in Div6 happily for many years.

I really think there are much more productive ways to approach usage of SCHRS in Div6.

Respectfully but forcefully,
Jim Casto

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Roger

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Apr 27, 2022, 9:25:16 PM4/27/22
to Jim Casto, jimr...@outlook.com, Chris Reuwsaat, Division-6
Jim Rehage

First off, AYC is not a part of Division VI. The discussion on whether or not to use SCHRS is a discussion you need to have with your club and race organizers. That discussion does not belong here. 
Division VI clubs are: Austin Cats, Bolivar Yacht Club, Canyon Lake Cats - Fleet 128 (now inactive as of this week), The Great Texas Fleet and TCDYC.  

I don't know if you are aware of the history of Division VI or not, but here is a very brief recap. Division VI was originally Hobie Association Division VI. The only boats allowed to enter Hobie association regattas are Hobie brand boats. Some years ago the decision was made to separate from the Hobie association due to the popularity of new faster designs. Division VI moved to open class catamaran racing to give those boats a place to race. At that point Division VI used the US Sailing Portsmouth Rating system. The person that created the program used for rating Portsmouth passed away and the ratings remained stagnant and was never updated because no one could figure out how to use the old DOS program. At this point it has been 16 or 17 years since it was last updated. A couple of years ago we voted in using the Small Catamaran Handicap Rating System (SCHRS) as it is kept current and updated on a regular basis. 

 For the regattas I PRO for TCDYC I worked closely with Will Rottering (SCHRS representative for the US) to apply the system as fairly as possible while using a handicap system. The ratings calculator on the SCHRS website works well and is easy to navigate. The first year we used SCHRS,  I did ask for sail measurements and used them to calculate the ratings for the TCDYC Regattas. I will tell you that in all except one case, the ratings supplied by the sailors matched what Will and I came up with. In that one case, the number we came up with benefitted the sailor as the number he supplied had his boat rated faster than the number we derived. The sailors in Division VI really do a great job of policing themselves.

Will also informed me not to use the system to try and figure out a rating on anything other than a catamaran.  The formulas don't correlate with more or less than 2 hulls. When faced with any trimaran we can only make a best guess on a rating based on a correlation of the outdated Portsmith numbers or just not allow the entry. However they did work with us on figuring out a rating to accommodate the Wetas last year. 

Division VI does not have or keep a rating database. SCHRS does and updates it. As Shannon stated earlier in this chain, any second running of the numbers would be redundant. I have calculated a new rating for a boat during the sailing season because they purchased new non-class legal sails, added/removed a kite, etc.. I start with the base rating and work from there.

At the end of the day, it is up to the Host Club, PRO and Race Committee to apply the scoring system properly. It is also their decision to ask for boat/sail measurements or not. The SCHRS folks are always willing to help a club calculate the proper rating. 
  
This is not national or international level sailing. These are club level events. If we were to stick to the methodology you are describing, you would not be allowed to enter your Weta in any Division VI Regatta. The rating system was not designed for it. A club chooses to accommodate boats outside of the normal "beach cat" entry to promote sailing and build interest in what we do. Everyone who volunteers their time to run these events gives their best effort to conduct a great event for the sailors. As Jim alluded to earlier, registrations are declining but even more importantly the volunteers to run these regattas are nearly non-existent. All of these clubs have a small contigenant of volunteers that they count on to run a regatta. I will let the host clubs run their events without intense scrutiny from Division VI. 

I received your text that you are scoring for the upcoming AYC regatta. If you decide to use SCHRS remember that the SCHRS team is always willing to help a Race Committee with the numbers and answer questions. Those guys are the experts.

Roger Howard
Commodore, Division VI
Commodore, Texas City Dike Yacht Club (TCDYC)

Billy Richnow

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Apr 27, 2022, 9:44:19 PM4/27/22
to Roger Howard, Jim Casto, jimr...@outlook.com, Chris Reuwsaat, Division-6
Roger, I applaud your reply. WELL DONE!!!!

Billy Richnow


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Jim Rehage

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Apr 27, 2022, 11:42:41 PM4/27/22
to Billy Richnow, Roger Howard, Jim Casto, Chris Reuwsaat, Division-6, reno...@gmail.com

Hi Roger,

Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to respond to my email.  Having raced dinghies, keel boats, catamarans, and trimarans for 40 years under a variety of handicapping systems, I’m always curious to learn more about our sport.  Thanks for enlightening me on why US Sailing stopped supporting the Portsmouth handicapping program. 

 

I haven’t met you yet, but I started sailing catamarans at regattas run by Div6 beginning with Ruff Rider in 2001.  I’ve participated in numerous RR events, three GT300s, several Hill Country and Long Neck Regattas, and a few regattas run by TCDYC.  I stopped racing my F18 Infusion several years ago due to health issues.  Having recently retired, I’ve got more time to spend sailing and have an interest in supporting multihull sailing at the local level.

 

Background on Weta Sailing in Div6 Events 

When I purchased my Weta, there were several Wetas actively racing in the Texas Centerboard Circuit. That organization has been inactive since Covid, and unfortunately, it appears to have gone dormant.

 

The LCYC notice of race for the 2021 Wurstfest Regatta advertised it as an open multihull regatta and went on to encourage Weta sailors to come.  I contacted Charlie Meyer and asked if I could be assigned a SCHRS rating, and I suggested that the boat’s performance was fairly even with the Hobie 14 Turbo based on reports from other Weta sailors.  Charlie apparently contacted Will, and Will came up with a rating somehow. As it turned out,  I was unable to sail in the regatta due to a family commitment, but I was happy that I now had a rating provided by Will.  You may have been involved in the decision to make Wurstfest open to Wetas, I don’t know.  Obviously, the organizing authority for each regatta can select what types of boats are eligible to participate.  I’d heard that TCDYC had loosened their eligibility requirements and I was pleased to see that Div6 and AustinCats advertised that the 2022 Hill Country Regatta was an Open, Multi-Hull Regatta.  Note that I had sailed my Weta in a previous HCR (2016, I think) that was scored using D-PN.

 

My Interest in SCHRS

In January I was asked to join the AYC Multihull Fleet Handicapping Committee.  Jim Casto was the outgoing committee member for 2022 and one of the tasks that he encouraged the committee to address is switching from the D-PN rating system to SCHRS for beach cat handicapping.  The rationale follows the explanation given in your email and also to encourage Div6 sailors to participate in AYC events.  I was asked to accept that task due to my cat experience and also previous experience with handicap scoring at AYC.

 

I am familiar with the SCHRS and understand that is essentially a predictive model based on physics, with a bit of tweaking to accommodate the large variety of catamaran classes out there.  I understand that it is not intended for trimaran handicapping. 

 

The AYC Multihull Fleet is comprised mostly of Corsair trimarans that use the PHRF handicapping system, with a handful of catamarans that have historically been scored using D-PN ratings.  They made the decision a few years ago to require ratings to be obtained independently from TOMA for the Corsair fleet.  We have a database of PHRF ratings and require boat certificates to be updated when any sails are added or other boat changes are made.

 

To provide a similar level of transparency for AYC catamaran SCHRS ratings, we are going to want backup for customized boat ratings (i.e., ratings that differ from those on the SCHRS website and for boats not currently rated by SCHRS).  I’m sure we will be fine with a SCHRS calculator spreadsheet provided by an owner, along with a description of the changes from class specs. 

 

There is a bit of urgency, being that Turnback Canyon Regatta is this coming weekend and the NOR states that beach cats will be scored using SCHRS.  Hence, my interest in possibly obtaining boat rating information from Div6.  So last week, I called Roger Poe and asked if Div6 maintained a library of SCHRS ratings.  He said he wasn’t aware of any, but that he had been in previous discussions regarding a need for that.  He told me that skippers provide their own ratings and that boat ratings are generally carried forward from one event to the next. 

 

If there is a library of SCHRS ratings for cats that participate in Div6 events, are you willing to share that information with AYC when needed to confirm a participant’s request for a non-published boat rating?

 

Hill Country Regatta Comments

Sunday evening,  I was asked by the Hill Country Regatta PRO to review the boat ratings and regatta scores before Jim Casto distributed them.  I noted some discrepancies from the published SCHRS ratings and pointed those out to Mr. Casto who was doing the scoring by email. 

 

I’m sorry if my email that copied Div6, yourself, and others came across too strong.  Obviously, I used poor judgement in my choice of recipients.  I wrote it very late Sunday night after a long and vigorous day of sailing the Weta in the regatta and I was obviously too tired to realize it might piss off some folks. I asked whether Div6 allowed owners to use different ratings for the same boat at different events and apparently that question was not well taken.

 

Again, thank you so much for your email.  I hope that we can collaborate in a positive way going forward,

 

Jim Rehage

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