Consider 3 Men

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Sheri R

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Jul 26, 2021, 10:55:33 AM7/26/21
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Dear Friends, 

I am unsure why there is a compulsion to share the following. It was an excerpt (though edited) from another correspondence. Please be kind. I fully acknowledge I have NO IDEA of the hell of a concentration camp. It it also not meant as any type of criticism of judgement on the authors. It is a simple sharing of a perception, perspective and perhaps even insight. 
As always, thank you for this wonderful group and dialogue within. With love, s


Consider three men; Viktor Frankl, Elie Wiesel and Jacques Lusseyran. All three with individual backgrounds, all three landing in concentration/death camps. What they share through their work is a fascinating dive into human survival/psychology/spirit......I am not sure what the most accurate word is. I do not claim to know the work and life of any of these men with true deep comprehension. I speak only of the felt sense that arises while reading the most intimate moments they share of their time in the hell we call a concentration camp. 

VF; Auschwitz - the book of his I read on recommendation was Man's Search for Meaning.   
EW;  Auschwitz and Buchenwald - The Night (of course). Also, I've listened to and watched numerous interviews  with EW. . 
JL; Buchenwald - And There Was Light 

I've told you about a meditation practice I've done for years that was inspired by a story I'd heard about a Vietnam POW who'd been enslaved for about 7 years. When he was not working he was kept in a 4x4 cage. His description, which is now vague in my mind, was one similar to that of Daniel (from Rectify). Initially he went 'crazy' but upon his rescue and reintegration into civilian life he was in life, much more similarly to JL description in chapter 15 where he describes Life living through him (my words, I'll clean that up later).  In short, a realized being. 
Anyway, back to the practice. When moments in life became what I thought was unbearable, I'd imagine myself in this 4x4 cage without a place to escape, thus forcing myself to stay in the shit. It has been a very effective meditation. There's a reason I brought this up, but I can't remember why.  I'll come back to it. 

VF; Victor's expression of his experience, in this particular work at least, seems to be a deep psychoanalysis on the meaning of life. It feels as though his conclusion is forced, brought about by intellectual contemplation about this period of horror, atrocity and human suffering that must be almost incomprehensible and unbelievable after the fact. This work is poignant as he shares very intimate moments leaving no doubt he is changed in fundamental ways which have informed a deeper wisdom and knowing. 
As I've understood his conclusion in this book, the meaning of life is highly specific to the individual (one must determine one's own meaning) and therefore only helpful to the reader to varying degrees. Our attempt to help one another can only be given with full, honest  disclosure of ourselves, which I believe VF did. Even then our work remains undone, for the other can never do it for us. This can leave one unsatiated. 
Not having been interested in 'meaning' while on this 'path', this work was least inspiring. 

EW; now he comes a bit closer. It is simply the perception here that EW is a broken man. It feels as though he willingly remains in, or at least is immediately able to bring himself back to, the felt sense of horror, atrocity, and evil of his experience. Perhaps he does not want that feeling to fade, he does not want to forget. Maybe he doesn't want the world to forget.  Or perhaps he keeps trying to 'understand' it like a scientific problem.  He is perplexed, dumbfounded, trying to solve a perverse unimaginable aspect of human behaviour. Perhaps he feels an answer within but can neither access it nor let it go. It is too important for both himself and humanity to let time erase the memory of it. 
There seems to be sadness about EW. Granted, I may be projecting this. But I deeply understand this profound openness to the rawness of life. It can haunt one. 

JL;  This is too much. For anyone. It was too much for JL too. 
Surrender happens. The Life that supported his life, a force within itself, took over. And the only thing he said he could do, maybe ever do, was to let it. 
'Have I said that death was already there? If I have, I was wrong. Sickness and pain, yes, but not death. Quite the opposite, life, and that was the unbelievable thing that had taken possession of me. I had never lived so fully before. 
Life had become a substance within me. It broke into my cage, pushed by a force a thousand times stronger than I. It was certainly not made of flesh and blood, not even of ideas. It came toward me like a shimmering wave, like the caress of light. I could see it beyond my forehead and above my head. It touched me and filled me to overflowing. I let myself float upon it. 
There were names which I mumbled from the depths of my astonishment. No doubt my lips did not speak them, but they had their own song: "Providence, the Guardian Angel, Jesus Christ, God." I didn't try to turn it over in my mind.......I drew my strength from the spring. .....the Life which sustained the life in me. 
The Lord took pity on the poor mortal who was so helpless before him. It is true I was quite unable to help myself. All of us are incapable of helping ourselves. Now I knew it, and knew that it was true of the SS among the first. That was something to make one smile. 
But there was one thing I could do: not refuse God's help, the breath he was blowing upon me. That was the one battle I had to fight, hard and wonderful all at once: not to let my body be taken by the fear. For fear kills, and joy maintains life. 
Slowly I came back from the dead....I left the hospital on my own two feet. I was nothing but skin and bones, but I had recovered. The fact was I was so happy that now Buchenwald seemed to me a place which if not welcome was at least possible. If they didn't give any bread to eat, I would feed on hope. 
It was the truth. I still had eleven months ahead of me in the camp. But today I have not a single evil memory of those three hundred and thirty days of extreme wretchedness. I was carried by a hand. I was covered by a wing. I hardly needed to look out for myself, and such concern would have seemed to me ridiculous. I was free now to help the others; not always, not much, but in my own way I could help. 
.....From that time on they stopped stealing my bread or my soup. It never happened again. Often comrades would wake me in the night and take me to comfort someone....
That is how I lived, how I survived. The rest I cannot describe."

I've not always exactly known what has pulled/pushed this search with such ferocity and tenaciousness. But here it is,  laid bare. 
VF;  Please, no more analysis of human spirit/personality. No more theories about the meaning of life. No more books from the guts of hell trying to  inspire a life that has meaning. 
EW: Please, no more self flagellation of heroic proportions. No more keeping vigil over the fire of humanity until someone figures it outs. No more haunted life. 
JL: Light. God, Being. Alive. YES! 

--
Sheri Rink Dip.PT, Acup., RYT

Irene escobar

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Jul 26, 2021, 11:04:14 AM7/26/21
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Thank you very much for this sharing of light:)

Irene Escobar




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terrilc...@aol.com

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Jul 26, 2021, 11:17:33 AM7/26/21
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Thanks, Sheri. I have reach Frankl and Wiesel, and now will look for Lusseyran's writing. I appreciated your thoughts on these men and their experiences.
Blessings,
Terri


Debi Lee

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Jul 27, 2021, 11:27:44 PM7/27/21
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Sheri and Diehards,

Sheri, perhaps you shared this because you see where this entire world has been, and is heading very swiftly now. I’ve attached a short video clip, and will echo something Dan K. wrote in an earlier email: NIMBY—-Not in my backyard. I’ll add that it’s my belief that all puppets/presidents are all on the same team. What you witness on your TVs is a SHOW of opposition to keep us divided and distracted while THEY roll out the New World Order (that I’ve heard every puppet, I mean president mention, but not define, since Reagan). Their motto is: Divide and Conquer because they knew if we were ever united they could never roll out their New World Order. They’ve divided us religiously, politically, nationally, racially, economically, gender wise, and now they’ve divided us through this planned Covid hoax, the vaccinated against the unvaccinated. I believe it was Shakespeare that said: All the world’s a stage. He knew because he was one of them. 

Video.MOV

Debi Lee

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Jul 28, 2021, 12:11:31 AM7/28/21
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Diehards, 

I forgot to mention I don’t believe any president worldwide was ever elected, they’re all selected decades in advance and they do what they’re told, they have no real power. And, most are all related. For instance, it appears that Killary Clinton and Donald DRUMPF—his real name, are cousins. When you ‘cast’ your vote you participate in their black magic. It also appears that standing 6 feet apart and wearing masks are part of satanic rituals, another way for you to participate in their sick game they play with us. Or not. I’ve never worn a mask, nor have I ever social distanced, nor have I slathered that poison called hand sanitizer on the largest organ on my body and amazingly enough I have not even had a sniffle since this whole hoax began. looks like they renamed the flu to me. And the reason they do not advertise the Covid vaccines on TV is because by law you are supposed to also list all side effects, which Death is just one of them. I wonder how many vaccinated people were informed of that before their doctor jabbed them. Below is a link that has some information that might surprise many of you and prompt you to google the list of ingredients of the Covid vaccines. Potassium chloride is in Pfizer’s; that is one of three ingredients used in lethal injections for our inmates in the US, it stops the heart. Not one Covid vaccine is FDA approved for safety, it is approved for emergency use only and that is why they call it “testing” and “trials”, they are now using “trials” on children, healthy children!


debi

🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 27, 2021, at 11:27 PM, Debi Lee <dle...@icloud.com> wrote:

Sheri and Diehards,

Sheri, perhaps you shared this because you see where this entire world has been, and is heading very swiftly now. I’ve attached a short video clip, and will echo something Dan K. wrote in an earlier email: NIMBY—-Not in my backyard. I’ll add that it’s my belief that all puppets/presidents are all on the same team. What you witness on your TVs is a SHOW of opposition to keep us divided and distracted while THEY roll out the New World Order (that I’ve heard every puppet, I mean president mention, but not define, since Reagan). Their motto is: Divide and Conquer because they knew if we were ever united they could never roll out their New World Order. They’ve divided us religiously, politically, nationally, racially, economically, gender wise, and now they’ve divided us through this planned Covid hoax, the vaccinated against the unvaccinated. I believe it was Shakespeare that said: All the world’s a stage. He knew because he was one of them. 

<Video.MOV>


debi

🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:23 AM, terrilcornwell via Diehard Group <diehar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Kevin Shuey

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Jul 28, 2021, 8:00:29 AM7/28/21
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Debi,

Diehards is a good thing. Don’t ruin it with your conspiracy crap.
Kevin

On Jul 28, 2021, at 00:11, 'Debi Lee' via Diehard Group <diehar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Diehards, 

Sheri R

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Jul 28, 2021, 11:01:32 AM7/28/21
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Dear Kevin, Debi and All, 

I'm confused! 🤔
Admittedly, that does not take much. Two things here; 
Kevin, where was that excerpt posted? I did not see it? 
Also, Debi, this does not sound at all like you!?! Did your email get hacked?

Paul Rezendes

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Jul 28, 2021, 11:18:21 AM7/28/21
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Debi, Diehards,

Debi, my heart sank reading your emails. As of lately I have been very, very concerned about the mental health of people in this world. It does not look good to me. It seems pretty hopeless. Just my personal opinion. I think people have really lost it; they are going off the cliff. They just have left this planet. Alan Watts said a long time ago: "if this issue (the false self) is not addressed, people will eventually go mad and self destruct." I think that is actually what’s happening. It is not only a mental health issue, but also what we are doing to this planet. I think the planet is going to hit back and it's not going to be pretty. I'm just being frank here and upfront.

As far as the fragmentation we see in society, from what I can see, it is due to the separate one, the thinker of the thought, the false self. To think that this fragmentation is being caused by some power is just creating more fragmentation… Yikes! Where the hell is this going to end?

I have feelings, and I'm not feeling good about all this. It just doesn't look like it's going in a good direction. I know, I know... good luck, bad luck, who knows? We really don't know.

I would like to end with love and affection to everyone,

Paul  😥




Sheri R

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Jul 28, 2021, 11:58:02 AM7/28/21
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Thank you, Paul. Sobering. 
Kevin, I see the post now. Had to go to the Diehards on 'the web'. It did not populate in my email. 

terrilc...@aol.com

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Jul 28, 2021, 12:08:37 PM7/28/21
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Dan Kilpatrick

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Jul 28, 2021, 12:22:08 PM7/28/21
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Diehards,

I just caught up with this thread, and truthfully, I have no sense of having insight or solutions to all the chaos that is transpiring. If there is anything to say, right now, it seems simply to be returning to simple facts, to solid ground. Not our beliefs, but to simply see that we have beliefs and that these are all they are. We all share this tendency, it is neither right nor wrong. But death is a fact, full stop, and people are dying of covid. Our neighbor across the street died of covid this past Spring, and the impact of this on his wife and family was devastating, and remains so. This is not a belief, it is a fact. No amount of believing is going to change this fact.

It is a wonderful thing to not have been affected by this disease passing through humanity right now. But this does not mean, it seems to me, that I or anyone should assume we are therefore not at risk of becoming ill and even dying. It simply means that we have been very fortunate, and there is true value in appreciating this. Things could be different. We (as the human being and personality) could not be here now. We would not be here to appreciate this fact, but we would be missed and others would be suffering over it. Also, we likely would have gone through some terrible circumstances on the way to not being here anymore. 

So this matter of covid etc, to me, is not about anything other than caring for ourselves, for each other, and for our world as a whole. Covid seems to have become something that moves us away from the very thing most needed right now, compassion. Division will simply take anything that comes its way and turn it into more division. It can't help itself, because this is its movement. But to see the actual fact of this, the truth of this, is this very compassion, in which no one is separate. There is compassion for division that can't see what it is doing. No words are needed then......   -Dan

terrilc...@aol.com

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Jul 28, 2021, 12:50:02 PM7/28/21
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Paul wrote that "the planet is going to hit back." Here is an example of just that (hope you can pull up the article):


Terri


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Rezendes <pho...@paulrezendes.com>
To: Diehards google <diehar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 28, 2021 11:18 am
Subject: Re: Consider 3 Men

Bruce Coles

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Jul 28, 2021, 12:50:35 PM7/28/21
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Dear folks,

I'm not going to address all the political, ethical and moral issues raised.  They are complex - at least for me - and not easily articulated in emails.  One's intent can easily be misunderstood.  

For the following I mean no disrespect, but it is important to be informed and factual about the vaccine contents issue that was raised.  Potassium chloride is not a poison.  In fact, it is used routinely in medicine, given IV to treat potassium depletion which is not uncommon.  It is true, because it is an electrolyte that is important in cardiac as well as nerve impulse conduction that if given in very high doses it can stop the heart.  So, it is a matter of the dosage and not an issue of it being a toxin.  This is the same issue with many vegetable and fruit foods we consume which contain substances that our liver and kidneys process and inactivate every day, but if ingested in high enough amounts can overwhelm our detoxification mechanisms and cause us harm.  Our bodies are designed to do this naturally.  Again, it is all a matter of degree.

I understand that people have doubts about vaccines, but they have literally saved millions of lives over their history.  So, in these times when there is so much discord and disinformation, we must do our best to be kind to each other, take care of one another and not add to the turbulence.

I hope this is helpful.

Respectfully,
Bruce

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 11:58 AM Sheri R <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:

terrilc...@aol.com

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Jul 28, 2021, 12:52:56 PM7/28/21
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Dan,
Thank you for this:

So this matter of covid etc, to me, is not about anything other than caring for ourselves, for each other, and for our world as a whole. Covid seems to have become something that moves us away from the very thing most needed right now, compassion.
Terri


-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Kilpatrick <kilp...@gmail.com>
To: diehar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Jul 28, 2021 12:21 pm
Subject: Re: Consider 3 Men

Paul Rezendes

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Jul 28, 2021, 12:53:10 PM7/28/21
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JIM PETERSON

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Jul 28, 2021, 12:55:29 PM7/28/21
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Dear Diehards,
 
I appreciate what Paul and Dan have contributed regarding Debi's post.  I have to admit also that I appreciate Kevin's reaction.  I have been talking with Paul this morning about all of this, and he and I agreed on what the purpose of the diehard group is.  As founder of the group, he has a clear view of it.  I hope I'm accurately representing Paul's sense of this, but if I'm not I'm sure he will straighten me out.  The Diehards is a self-inquiry group whose purpose is the passionate, inward seeking of Truth.  The word "inward" seems to be key here.  In other words, our purpose isn't to air our political beliefs about the outward world, but rather to investigate the nature of belief itself as it arises within Awareness.  Another way to say it: We are not here to buy into and propagate specific beliefs, but rather we are here to facilitate the revealing of belief itself as a function of the separate self arising in Awareness.  Paul, if you would like to add anything to this, please do.  Correct me if I've got it wrong.  I welcome any and all responses.
 
Like all of us, I feel a lot of love and gratitude toward everyone in this group.  Every once in a while maybe we have to sort of re-calibrate the approach we are taking just to keep us on that inward path.  Nobody here is right or wrong.  The question for me is whether we're going inward in our inquiry or outward.  So I'm just suggesting humbly that we turn back toward the inward.  Maybe we can leave the divisive outward world of politics etc. to other groups.  I'm sure there are many of them.
 
With so much gratitude for all of you,
 
Jim

Paul Rezendes

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Jul 28, 2021, 1:16:58 PM7/28/21
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Thanks Jim, right on per our conversation.

Paul



terrilc...@aol.com

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Jul 28, 2021, 2:00:18 PM7/28/21
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In case you couldn't read the article, here is at least most of it:

Beyond human endurance

How climate change is making parts of the world too hot and humid to survive

Deadly heat waves have swept the globe and will continue to because of climate change.
The trends are prompting doomsday questions: Will parts of the world soon become too hot to live in? How will we survive?
 and 
July 28, 2021
When it comes to heat, the human body is remarkably resilient — it’s the humidity that makes it harder to cool down. And humidity, driven in part by climate change, is increasing.
A measurement of the combination of heat and humidity is called a “wet-bulb temperature,” which is determined by wrapping a completely wet wick around the bulb of a thermometer. Scientists are using this metric to figure out which regions of the world may become too dangerous for humans.
A term we rarely hear about, the wet-bulb temperature reflects not only heat, but also how much water is in the air. The higher that number is, the harder it is for sweat to evaporate and for bodies to cool down.
At a certain threshold of heat and humidity, “it’s no longer possible to be able to sweat fast enough to prevent overheating,” said Radley Horton a professor at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory.
Scientists have found that Mexico and Central America, the Persian Gulf, India, Pakistan and Southeast Asia are all careening toward this threshold before the end of the century.
Story continues below advertisement
“Humid heat risks are grossly underestimated today and will increase dramatically in the future,” Horton said. “As locations around the world experience previously rare or unprecedented extremes with increasing frequency, we run the risk that our previous messaging about extreme heat risk — already woefully inadequate — will fall further short of the mark.”
You might think that being closer to the beach would be a great way to catch that ocean breeze and cool off. But Horton said proximity to water in extreme conditions could make things worse. As warming temperatures cause the water to evaporate, it adds humidity to the air.
“If you’re sitting in a city along the Persian Gulf, the sea breeze could be a deadly breeze,” he said.
To better understand why these places are becoming too hot and humid for humans to endure, you have to first understand how the body cools itself.
As the sun heats up the air, the ground, objects and people, the human body will react in an effort to cool itself.
The skin sweats. Evaporation of this water cools the body — as long as the surrounding humidity levels allow the evaporation to take place.
If the hot air is too humid, that heat exchange is blocked and the body loses its primary means of cooling itself.
The wet-bulb temperature that marks the upper limit of what the human body can handle is 95 degrees Fahrenheit (35 Celsius). But any temperatures above 86 degrees Fahrenheit (30 Celsius) can be dangerous and deadly. Horton and other scientists noted in a 2020 paper that these temperatures are occurring with increasing frequency in parts of the world. To put things in perspective, the highest wet-bulb temperature ever recorded in the Washington region, known for its muggy, unbearable summers, was 87.2 degrees (30.7 Celsius).
“Extreme humid heat overall has more than doubled in frequency since 1979,” the study’s authors wrote.
These conditions are reaching that deadly threshold in places like South Asia and the Middle East and could regularly cross it by 2075, scientists say.
Observed global extreme humid heat
Daily maximum wet-bulb temperature
85-88°F
More than 90°F
Less than 80°F
80-85°F
88-90°F
Loreto,
Mexico
El Fuerte,
Mexico
Abu Dhabi,
U.A.E.
Muscat,
Oman
Note: Symbols represent the 99.9th percentile of observed daily maximum wet-bulb temperature for 1979–2017 for HadISD stations with at least 50% data availability
over this period.
Source: "The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance" by Colin Raymond, Tom Matthews and Radley M. Horton, published by Science Advances by the American Association for the Advancement of Science
Horton and his colleagues found parts of the United Arab Emirates and Pakistan have each passed the 95 degree mark for one or two hours more than three times since 1987.
On the coast of the Gulf of California, in the Mexican state of Sonora, scientists are also seeing a “very significant” increase in wet-bulb and air temperatures, said Tereza Cavazos, a senior researcher in the department of physical oceanography at the Ensenada Center for Scientific Research and Higher Education.
During the summer, parts of the gulf can reach temperatures of 86 to 87.8 degrees Fahrenheit (30 to 31 degrees Celsius), which causes the water to evaporate more quickly. The combination of warmer waters and increasing heat trends in Sonora are causing the wet-bulb temperatures to reach dangerous levels.
Story continues below advertisement
“Just increasing 1 or 2 degrees Celsius can be the tipping point for changing the impact,” Cavazos said.
The blistering heat is resulting in difficult living conditions, especially for communities that lack resources to provide relief.

Why some will survive while others die

Even below these thresholds, cooling down is hard work on the body. The efforts to fight the effects of heat puts pressure on your heart and kidneys. With extreme heat, people’s organs can start to fail. If you have preexisting conditions, it’s even more likely.
As your body works to cool down, the heart works harder in an effort to pump blood up just below the surface of the skin, where it can get cooler.
The kidneys work harder to conserve your body’s water.
When your body temperature gets too high, it will ultimately cause your body’s proteins to break down, its enzymes to stop regulating your organs’ functions and your organs to start shutting down.
This is a heat stroke: Your body essentially cooks to the point where you have multi-organ failure.
In heat waves, many deaths are due to health problems exacerbated by the extreme conditions.
“It’s very clear during a heat wave, more people do die of heat stroke,” said Zachary Schlader, an associate professor at Indiana University Bloomington who focuses on thermal stress and the human body. But even more die of heart-related conditions. “The body responds [to heat] in such a way it could make the organ vulnerable.”
During heat waves there are some simple ways to take care of your body.
If you have air conditioning, the solution is simple: Go inside.
If you don’t have those resources, hydrate. Drinking water can ease the load on the heart, kidneys and other organs.
Take a break: Even moderate physical exertion such as walking greatly increases the heat your body’s muscles will generate.
Protecting yourself from such stress is inextricably tied to socioeconomic status and resources.
“The poorest people are the most vulnerable, and they are already suffering,” Cavazos said, noting that Sonora depends on farming, meaning a lot of people have to engage in physical labor in the dangerous heat.
In regions like the Persian Gulf, extreme heat is the new normal: Qatar has adapted so extensively to the blistering climate that it air-conditions the outdoors. But not everyone has access to outdoor air conditioning, including those building the facilities that have them. When the wealthy country began construction on venues to host the 2022 World Cup, it faced an uproar over its treatment of workers building the stadiums.
In 2019, the United Nations warned during the four hottest months of the year, outdoor laborers in Qatar were working under "significant occupational heat stress conditions.“
Story continues below advertisement
Qatar in May imposed regulations expanding the number of hours that prohibits outdoor labor from taking place to 10 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. during the hotter months of the year, while also outlawing any work if the wet-bulb temperature is more than approximately 89 degrees Fahrenheit.
Merely surviving in those conditions depends on your place in society and what that affords: access to air conditioning, insulated homes, jobs that don’t require extreme physical exertion under the sun and policies in place to protect you from dangerous conditions.
“As humans, we have learned to adapt,” Cavazos said. “The problem is the cost. Some will not survive.”



Debi Lee

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Jul 28, 2021, 11:12:29 PM7/28/21
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With all due respect, Diehards,

I genuinely appreciate everyone's comments here, including yours, Kevin. The things that got triggered in you, Kevin, were in you long before I ever typed my last two posts, so I can't take responsibility for your feelings.

Sheri, I'm not sure if you're saying that because I'm not a communist, socialist, or a liberal that the part of me that you've heard/seen in these posts or in the Thu night zoom group is no longer there and/or is not still the same. I don't fit in a pretty little box or with the masses, and I've learned to be thankful for that. There's a part of me that is so pure, so loving, so compassionate and has been there for as long as I can remember and it hasn't gone anywhere because I've seen what I've seen in this sick world....and with all of its beauty, too.

Paul, you've always been very blunt with me on this forum and in the few personal exchanges we've had, (you know I appreciate that) so I was a little surprised that i found myself struggling to grok some of what you wrote; Jim cleared some of it up. I can get confused pretty easily at times. I'm going to try and put this as succinctly as I can, I probably won't do a very good job, so I apologize in advance. I've listened to people on here talk a little bit about how we're harming Earth and how we harm each other. I don't have any problem with that for two reasons: 1) I care deeply about Earth, and the people and everything in/on Earth. 2) More often than not, I can not distinguish between spiritual and not spiritual, it is All spiritual to me. Paul, you and others have talked about your concerns for people and Earth. My entire rant came from the deepest care and love for Earth and everything in and on Earth, but it doesn't appear that anyone saw even an inkling of that. That triggered the very deep sadness that resides in me for the state of the Earth and everything in/on Earth. 

The less than 20 second video of what is clearly a psychopath to me stating that, "Ordinary men and woman are too small minded to govern their own affairs, that order and progress can only come when individuals surrender their rights to an all powerful sovereign" is a perfect example of mental illness and the demise of the human race. I think because others have talked about their concern for the welfare of the Earth and the inhabitants of Earth on this forum, I gave myself permission to do the same, and also, I have to live with myself and when I don't act in accordance with my values, I lose sleep. I did realize that my rant would not be received well, but it was my attempt to help 'turn this ship around.' Some of us are compelled to do what we can for the land we live on and everything that lives on it; sometimes it's appreciated and/or respected and sometimes it's not. 

Dan, you said, "I have no sense of having insight or solutions to all the chaos that is transpiring." Was there not chaos before i posted anything? I thought I presented some facts, along with some beliefs. I wrote what i wrote out of compassion; I'm sorry i wasn't able, or didn't convey that. Dan, I've tried to do that here. You mentioned, "returning to solid ground." I'm not sure what you mean by solid ground, but to me, the only SEEMINGLY solid ground I've ever come across or even close to are those moments of what Bob Harwood called, "events," or what Jac O'Keefe and others call openings, awakenings, or glimpses of truth. I try, almost daily, to find what i believe the only solid ground is: Absolute Truth, the ONLY thing that doesn't change. And, Dan, I'm genuinely sorry for the loss of your neighbor. 

Jim, I really appreciate your comments and the time you spent with Paul this morning and for clarifying for me. I believed that most would see my posts as political and nothing more, and part of me said that what came up for me, didn't belong on this post. It seems like what comes up for most people is in agreement with what most others here would agree on, whether that's climate change, religion, or Einstein---with the exception of me. What comes up for me is vastly different and is not welcomed here, unless it agrees, or comes close to agreeing with the consensus. Maybe I'm wrong here, but for instance, Terri posts something here related to Climate Change. It seems to me that this is not a political issue until I might disagree with the consensus here, and talk about 'what came up for me,' then it becomes a political issue. Again, though, it just seems like it's ALL spiritual to me, but I can definitely see the point of the group being, "a self inquiry group whose purpose is the passionate, inward seeking of Truth," and how my concern for the fate of the world (which people made political,  could it be spiritual, too?) has no place here. It's looking and concern for things outside of debi. And, that is why there was a debate within me of posting my last two posts. My concern for Earth and everything in/on Earth won over the point of my posts being missed and people being pissed. I could sleep last night because I did what the purity of my Heart compelled me to do, with no concern about what others thought. Part of me sees that as real growth on my part and then another part of me asks: if you believed you'd be wasting your breath, why'd you do it?! The way I see it in this moment is that it's all good, nothing wrong with how things transpired here.

I'm glad I have no further desire to post my beliefs about the fate of the world here, so that I can say with great certainty that I, "can leave the divisive outward world of politics etc. to other groups." Yes, there are other groups, Jim.

J. Krishnamurti said, "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." I have never been well adjusted to this profoundly sick society and I'm grateful that this is so, even though it makes life more heartbreaking and difficult.

debi.

Janet Asiain

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Jul 29, 2021, 8:00:43 AM7/29/21
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Diehards

Rereading what you're about to be subjected to -- its definitely not ready for the publisher. Just my response to debi and other subsequent. Hope there are one or two coherent moments below!

I appreciated the "mission statement" written by Jim following his talk with Paul. Looking within, yes. The origin of all the damage and disharmony is there, clearly. And its manifestation, the mirror, in the outer, appears to be and feels tragic (global warming, COVID deaths). But to focus on the manifest events as though understanding how they operate -- and they do have a life of their own, once they appear -- will be if any use --- this is both seductive and misguided. (For example, the appearance of the corona virus is not where the problem it reveals lies, and the problem it presents is not solvable on the level of conspiracies or government policies or personal choice about vaccinations.)

The inner and outer are not two different worlds. They only appear that way. Could we say that the "inner" is closer to the source, the implicate order? If K was right, the outer is nothing more than a reflection of the inner. 

I hope I'm making it clear that I don't have conclusions about the machinations and manipulations apparent in our troubled world, although I do see them happening in real time, but that I do understand that they are like bright shiny objects that create all kinds of obstacles to seeing the truth that lies within and only within. Even beliefs that things are going "badly" is an obstacle. If we and our world are (possibly) consciousness trying to evolve, and it's a failed experiment on our case, that doesn't change a thing for people who aren't totally invested in the world of appearances. And anyway, it ain't over until it's over, right? What happens next is pure speculation and dwelling on it diverts attention from what could actually change the situation. What's happening now is what needs our attention. If we really saw What Is, without spinning off into theories about it all, wouldn't that reveal everything we need to 
know? 

So I keep up with what's happening "out there" but I'm careful to notice when my energy gets too engaged, and I'm careful to notice when I'm drawing conclusions about absolutely anything at all. These "noticing"activities seem to lie well within my scope and keep me both maladjusted to the madness and more or less centered around the only place I can really know anything about, really: my own experience. 

Blessings to all who read this far! And those who didn't, too ---

🕊Janet🕊         



Sent from my iPhone

Paul Rezendes

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Jul 29, 2021, 9:49:17 AM7/29/21
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Thank you Janet,

What you said really resonated with me. 

Paul

Sheri R

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Jul 29, 2021, 10:35:29 AM7/29/21
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Dear Debi, Janet and All, 

Debi, thank you for taking the time to reply further to this thread and providing a larger context. I did truly wonder whether your email had been hacked (or some similar event) as, yes, to my eyes and interpretation, this particular share/expression of yours did not seem to have the same feel as other writings of yours.  One of the many limitations of these types of forums is the increased difficulty of 'knowing/understanding' (at least to the small extent possible) another self. Knowing now it is your writing, and with the clarifying context you've provided, only changes one thing - I understand you better. 
I hope you do not stop contributing your thoughts and perspectives here in the Diehards, Debi. Even if it is opposing. Probably most of us have felt 'shamed' out of some type of group in their lifetime for non conforming behaviour or ideas. And to me at least, this type of group that is looking deep within and without, should have, more than anywhere else, the ability sit with equanimity beside someone with differing perspectives. Is there anything God refuses or can't accept? It seems not, at least to me. 

Janet, thank you for this! Like Paul, it deeply resonated with me as well! You've spoken very succinctly to what I feel inside but would not have been able to express so well. When all the talk and emotion around anything subsides, in the end for me, all I can say is 'I don't really know' and there is openness. From this space it seems love has full freedom, compassion rushes in, peace takes over and anything is possible, especially the unseen. 

With deep metta for you all, s


JIM PETERSON

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Jul 29, 2021, 11:11:09 AM7/29/21
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Dear Diehards, Debi, Janet, and Paul,
 
Thanks to all of you for your posts this morning.  Thank you Janet for your inquiries and your balanced view.  And thank you Debi for your continuing honesty.  If we can't learn from what is happening in these exchanges, then I don't know if we can learn anything at all.
 
I would like to try an experiment, if you don't mind.  Please bear with me for a few moments as I go into it.
 
I am a liberal politically.  Some would call me left wing.  I believe in the legalization of marijuana and hallucinogens.  No more drilling for oil.  Preservation of land and wilderness.  Democracy/socialism.  Yes, I don't hesitate to call myself a Democratic Socialist.  That combination appears to work best to me so far.  Limited Socialism helps to keep a check on Capitalism and protects all the people.  I vote Democrat but remain Independent.  I would say the Republican Party right now has fallen into evil ways, beginning with Donald Chump.  Sycophantic GOP leaders are willing to propagate Chump's lies and desire for absolute power.  (As I'm sharing these beliefs, something in me that is already here in the background comes to the foreground.  It is observing this bundle of constructs and beliefs, not to judge them, but just to see what they are, to see the mechanics.  What am "I" getting from holding and expressing these views?).  These sycophants and cowards are doing everything they can to prevent the people from voting so that they can maintain power for themselves and the wealthiest CEO's, corporations, and billionaires.  They want to grab everything for themselves and to hell with everyone else.  They are willing to let people die so that they can keep every penny for themselves.  In fact, they want people to die which is why they promote anti-vaccine and anti-mask propaganda.  Etc., etc., etc.  
 
I could go on for pages like this.  And if I did so, maybe I would sleep fine tonight knowing that I had spoken my truth.  Everything I said in that rant is the truth as "I" see it.  But that Something that is witnessing has been present all the way through, just watching and seeing.  Much is revealed in the space of this Awareness.  As I get all wound up, my rhetoric becomes more angry and abusive.  I start calling people names.  The self-righteousness, the nastiness, the hatred, rising up in me as I give credence to these beliefs by ranting about them, is seen, revealed.  My ranting actually draws a lot of what I call psychological poison into my body and mind.  I begin to feel anxiety and helplessness and a desire to take action—if I only knew what action to take.  Maybe I'll buy a gun!  Even my right to vote is being taken away from me!  Do you see the rant persona wanting to get back into this?  The Constant Companion, aka Awareness, is always here to see what is happening not just on the surface, but down in the layers of it.  It's not about the content per se.  These beliefs are some incalculable mixture of true and not true on the relative level.  What is being seen in its totality is how all of these beliefs and all of this aroused articulation is cultivating and manifesting the separate self.  The Me! "I" will sleep better.  But what does this articulation of my particular small-self beliefs do in the world?  There are people who will become very angry at me and may commit violence on me.  And I'll retaliate.  And the whole mess becomes so clear.  
 
Thank God for God.  For Awareness.  The content of my beliefs (and of YOUR beliefs too, I want to say) does not matter in the face of what is revealed in Awareness!  This is the reason I do not air my personal political beliefs in this forum.  For the most part, I have no idea what the political beliefs of individuals in this group are.  I'm not wanting to know either, unless I happen to become friends with someone and that kind of stuff comes out in our private conversations.  But the Diehard forum, to me, is about discovering the presence of that Awareness in everything, which is what is happening for this particular, very limited, body/mind. If the airing of beliefs helps to call Awareness forth from the background into the foreground (that's just a metaphor) where Truth (as opposed to truth) is revealed, then I can see how airing them is valuable.  In the absence of conscious Awareness, though, these beliefs (right or wrong) are destructive in the sense that the pathway to Awareness becomes more and more obscured by them.  They become more important that Awareness itself to us.  Destructive also in the conflict it promotes in relative life.
 
Airing one's beliefs serves the self by creating conflict and division both inwardly and outwardly, BUT,  it also provides an opportunity to see through the whole mechanism in one fell swoop!  The whole thing is right in front of us all the time.  This is just another metaphor: Where are we located within ourselves?  We can be located in self, or we can be located in Awareness.  Nothing changes, except the point of view.  Instead of identification with beliefs, there is objective witness to them.  That makes all the difference.  And it's all one movement, as Dan would say.  (Disclaimer: I know there is no location within and without.  For that matter, there is no "we."  But sometimes metaphors can help.)  
 
This is getting long, so I'll stop here.  Peace and Love...
 
Jim

Dan Kilpatrick

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Jul 29, 2021, 6:01:48 PM7/29/21
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Debi and All,

Thanks for taking the time to respond Debi. Just to clarify one thing, the confusion and chaos I was speaking to was the very thing you mentioned, that which is happening in the world right now. It was not directed to anyone in particular, or towards things happening on the Diehards per se. So I concur with you here, this chaos is and has been happening for a long time. As to solid ground, I just meant simple facts, like the sun rising and people dying, nothing more. I appreciate that sometimes there are different opinions as to facts, but the fact is they are opinions. So our opinions don't have to divide us. I guess that is what was meant. Best wishes, -Dan

Debi Lee

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Jul 30, 2021, 12:20:32 AM7/30/21
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Janet, Sheri, Jim, Dan, and Diehards,

Janet, I appreciate your coherent, wise responses, and the kindness and gentleness with which you delivered them. thank you. A lot of what you said resonated with me, especially, "What's happening now is what needs our attention. If we really saw What Is, without spinning off into theories about it all, wouldn't that reveal everything we need to know?" Sometimes I'm right there and the spinning stops. And, other times I'm like a feather in the rushing river, getting carried away with my concerns for the relative world and myself. Still, at other times, I'm the witness of the feather in the rushing river getting carried away with concerns for the relative world and myself.

Sheri, thank you for taking the time to respond. Your kind words touched my heart, as they do almost every time you respond to me. I feel the exact same way: "...this type of group that is looking deep within and without, should have, more than anywhere else, the ability to sit with equanimity beside someone with differing perspectives." I do, however, understand the need to contain my beliefs and opinions on certain subjects here, 'political' or not. I've tried to only respond to the posts, "whose purpose is the passionate, inward seeking of Truth. ...to investigate the nature of belief itself as it arises in Awareness.  ..to facilitate the revealing of belief itself as a function of the separate self arising in Awareness." I don't regret anything I wrote for several reasons, one being, a hope that all here have or will walk away gaining something....or subtracting something! I don't have any shame either, believe it or not, but I appreciate the invitation to continue posting here. 

Jim, although it's not needed, it's nice to know my honesty is appreciated, so thank you for verbalizing that. With the exception of there being a difference between the left and the right, I agree with the points you made, but I still don't regret posting either of them. :) I know I'm not so different in how I can get lost and animated, and frustrated, and sad; we're all more alike than we'll ever be different. I can, however, be harsh and have a sharp edge when I speak/type; sometimes it is, but it's not always intentional. I have rarely apologized for what I've said, but I've spent a lifetime apologizing for the way in which I delivered it; it's something I continue to work on. I don't see that I need to feel shame for it, although I can still feel shame, I'm learning to be ok with not being 'put together perfectly.' It's never going to happen that I'm all put together, prim and proper, nope, not gonna happen. All the learning and positive changes have occurred because the shit came up in Awareness. Many times, it took another kind enough person to point my shit out to me. The shit has to come up IN Awareness and I think what Paul calls, the passion for Truth, has to be stronger than any desire to protect the ego, whether that truth is relative or Absolute. It seems to me that seeing the relative truth about the self is part of the 'journey' to realizing the Absolute Truth, at least for most of the realized beings I've encountered.

Dan, thank you for clarifying. And, I agree totally: "So our opinions don't have to divide us." Thanks, Dan. And, always, the best to you, too.

Thank you all for being able to have a discussion even though there were differing opinions; it was very refreshing!

Much love,

debi

Debi Lee

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Jul 30, 2021, 7:44:32 AM7/30/21
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Jim, Diehards,

I’m really not trying to be a wise ass here but you mentioned something about name-calling in your last post, I assume you’re referring to the word, psychopath that I used. If I call someone a kind person, is that not another name or label? There is such a thing as a psychopath in this relative world. We have to, and I think always just will make distinctions in this world. If I were to call someone an asshole that’s subjective, that’s name calling to me, but can we say that a psychopath has certain qualities? A kind person has certain qualities? I also understand that what one person may consider kind can be vastly different than what another might consider kind, so perhaps from a certain perspective it’s all subjective. Awareness doesn’t judge anything as good, bad, or ugly, judging is just happening, and it seems to be ok in/under certain circumstances and not in others. Can or is this ok just as it is? 

 I could call someone a psychopath and feel full of compassion for that person, and/or I can also feel disdain for the same person I label as a psychopath, so does that change anything? I’m just typing what’s coming up here, doesn’t seem to flow nicely, but I’m going to leave it just as it is, perhaps someone(s) will comment and help me see something from a different perspective or make better sense of what is trying to be communicated. I think this post is keeping in line with the purpose of the group, if it’s not, I hope someone will make it crystal clear and let me know, that goes for anything I may post in the future. I value honesty, even more so, when it stings me, I get more out of it than some positive acknowledgement or praise. 

Thank you all for your patience, acceptance and your willingness to deal with my rough edges and my limited seeing. 

debi

🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2021, at 12:20 AM, Debi Lee <dle...@icloud.com> wrote:



Janet Asiain

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Jul 30, 2021, 8:38:20 AM7/30/21
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Diehards, Debi

Really briefly, two points:

It might be more illuminating to label people's behavior as psychopathic or kind or whatever, rather than labeling the person? Without judgement, of course! (As if ---)

And I appreciate your mention of "rough edges and limited seeing" -- those words describe us all, I think, to one degree or another.

Janet

Debi Lee

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Jul 30, 2021, 10:07:45 AM7/30/21
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Thanks Janet, for pointing that out. Absolutely, label the behavior, not the person. I’m usually in that mindset until my internal trigger reaches a certain degree of emotional charge. 

And, I agree we all have limited seeing, but I do think that the rough edges can reach a point that could be considered abusive, in which case, we can have compassion for the person from afar, especially if the person isn’t willing to work on changing the behavior. 

debi
🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2021, at 8:38 AM, Janet Asiain <janet...@gmail.com> wrote:



JIM PETERSON

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Jul 30, 2021, 2:27:09 PM7/30/21
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Dear Debi, Janet, and Diehards,
 
So for me, every thread that comes up here is to be applied functionally to self-inquiry.  So in that spirit, I would like to continue for just a little longer on this particular thread, because it is yielding insights within Awareness.  To do this, I'd like to reply to Debi's last two emails that were partially or wholly addressed to me.  And Debi, I thank you for following your own sense of the truth in what you have said.  Seems like that's really all any of us can do.
 
I want to start with "shame" because in one response you appeared to be shaking off any feelings of shame.  And I'm glad to see that.  At the same time, I'm concerned that what I said in my post was perceived by you as trying to produce shame.  So my point of self-inquiry is to question whether I was unconsciously trying to shame you.  And if so, what do I gain in doing that?  This is, I suspect, a potent question for many people to go into.  And so I hope this turns out to be a productive vein to follow.  I grew up in a household in which shaming was a form of discipline—a way to control the behavior of the children, namely me.  I would say there were three categories of shaming: mockery, ostracization, and the belt.  To put these into different terms, they would make fun of me, isolate me in my room (the cold shoulder), or my father would whip me with his belt.  When you combine these methods, the result is that shame becomes imprinted on the child.  For this reason, I have been a carrier of shame for much of my adult life, without fully understanding where it was coming from.  All I knew was that I was in severe pain emotionally over my concern that I had said or done something wrong or hurtful to someone else.  (Don't worry, I'm bringing this back around to my previous Diehard posts in a moment.). In my twenties I stumbled on Krishnamurti, and I really took what he was saying to heart and mind.  And his form of self-observation helped me to see through and mute to some degree the shame that seemed to be an organic part of my existence.  It was in my bones, muscles, and organs—so total was its power over me.  Serious depression cycled through my life like bad weather.  And even self-observation couldn't dismiss it totally.  But my continuing work with self-awareness and self-inquiry and meditation and so on began to throw open one of those inward doors after another.  A long series of insights.  Until today I would say that shame has mostly disappeared in me.  It is a meek ghost in the machinery of I-thought known as Jim.  I don't believe it will ever be totally eradicated in me, but I just don't suffer with it anymore.  When it arises it's just seen for what it is without reaction.
 
But that's not quite the end of it.  Shame takes at least two forms in the adult shame-carrier.  She or he is both a sufferer of shame and a dispenser of shame.  Though I no longer suffer with shame, I wonder if I am an unconscious dispenser of shame.  And so I have arrived back at my original question.  As I look back at my post and my "experiment," I can see an easy path to defending myself.  But my inquiry has nothing to do with self defense.  It seems that a deeper seeing is possible here.  My experiment resembles a form of mockery, though it was completely unconscious in me at the time.  I attempt to hide my motives by pretending to be calling attention to my own righteous opinions and name-calling and all of that, to show how divisive it can be.  But of course this was a disguised way of pointing out your behavior, even though I didn't directly mock you.  Is this being seen clearly?  Shame as a painful form of depression has faded out of my life, but does it still arise in subtle forms of shaming others?  The shamed will inevitably become a shamer of others.  And Debi, did you sense that, and is that why you felt you needed to talk about resisting shame?  I feel that something is being unearthed here, and Awareness is just seeing it more and more clearly.  Maybe I'm wrong.
 
So I am very sensitive to name-calling.  I wasn't thinking about your use of the word "psychopath" when I spoke of name-calling.  But I think it's a good example. So I want to be very alert as I'm writing this.  I'm not accusing you or myself of anything.  I'm asking both of us to see what is happening as best we can.  When I personally use the word "psychopath," if I'm alert to what I'm doing, I have no doubt that it's an insult designed to shame the other person, or to suggest that the other person "should" feel shame. Isn't it interesting that the ultimate way of shaming someone is to tell them that they have no shame?  In other words, what do "I" gain by calling someone a psychopath?  I have to become aware of that right in the moment.  Is that a way of confirming my own "I," defending it against its own sense of shame?  Honestly, I'm just looking.  It may be that the answer is different for each of us.  In my case, I have given up name-calling because I have seen so clearly how self was feeding on it.  The ego, the self, is so subtle in its machinations.  Just as an example, is this I-thought known as Jim feeding pridefully on what I'm saying here right now?  Is it thinking, "How thoughtful and insightful I am"?  There is just this seeing of it.  More and more now I live from this place of just seeing what is happening without judging it, without feeling any shame over it.  At a certain point, shame was replaced with fascination.  Seeing the machinery of the conditioned self is so interesting to me.  Seeing it without judgment is liberation to me.  All of my beliefs and thoughts are constantly within the purview of effortless Awareness.  Whew!  So much burden has been lifted.  
 
So Debi, I want you to know that I did not consciously or deliberately try to shame you with my comments.  But it's possible that it was happening unconsciously because this body/mind is still under the influence of subtle layers of shame conditioning.  The process of seeing more and more of it is unfolding in me, as I think it is in you.  And that's what we're here for, isn't it?  I want to add one more thing: I don't want to leave the impression that I grew up in some sort of terrible home.  We were solidly middle class and I had everything I needed.  I was loved and well taken care of.  But the discipline regimen I describe was commonplace in the 50's.  The adage "Spare the rod, spoil the child" was on the lips of parents everywhere.  My father's father was very strict and severe with him, and he passed some of that on to me, including the shaming.  Part of my self-inquiry is to see my parents objectively and therefore compassionately.  They were basically good people doing what they thought was right.  I'm grateful for so many opportunities they made possible for me.  Neither they nor I had any significant understanding of the negative consequences of certain kinds of conditioning in the body and mind of a child.  I sometimes regret that I didn't have children.  They might have been great comfort to me in my old age.  But I fear that I might have passed on unconscious techniques of shaming to my children.  And I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  
 
Debi and Diehards, forgive this terribly long post.  I suspect it touches on some of what I may have said in my earlier posts from a year or so ago.  If I have any goal, it's just to keep seeing with as much clarity as possible.  I truly don't know any other way to go.  And that old phantom "I" isn't going anywhere.  
 
With continuing love and gratitude,
 
Jim

terrilc...@aol.com

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Jul 30, 2021, 2:54:53 PM7/30/21
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Thank you, Jim. You have written an excellent example of self-inquiry -- a good model for all of us. Some of us, I'm sure, are using your words to reflect privately without responding to the Diehards, and that's OK, too!


-----Original Message-----
From: JIM PETERSON <sonofs...@comcast.net>
To: diehar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jul 30, 2021 2:27 pm
Subject: Re: Consider 3 Men

Kevin Shuey

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Jul 30, 2021, 10:00:13 PM7/30/21
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Diehards

I have kept silent until now, admittedly, to see how things played out. I thought it only fair, however,  that I check in at some point, since I’m the one who kicked the hornet’s nest. Sorry if this is a come-down after the lofty words that preceded it.  First of all, I apologize if my blunt response to Debi’s posts was offensive to anyone. No doubt I could have taken a gentler approach. Debi’ is right, I came to this with a history. Debi and I have been at this same juncture before, when we had a small self-inquiry group here in Goldsboro. She started introducing some similar, and Q-Anon related material. I appreciate the wise, openhearted, non-judgemental, compassionate comments that have flowed. I wouldn’t have expected anything less from this group.

The bottom line, for me, is  1)  As has been said, this is not the place for those conversations. And 2) I cannot support, encourage, or condone the kind of dangerous misinformation that can, and has, cost lives. If taking such a position makes me less “spiritual” or is not in keeping with the mores of this group, then perhaps I should bow out.

Much Love to All,

Kevin

 

 

 

Jim

Paul



Paul

 



Diehards, 

 

Terri

Slowly I came back from the dead...I left the hospital on my own two feet. I was nothing but skin and bones, but I had recovered. The fact was I was so happy that now Buchenwald seemed to me a place which if not welcome was at least possible. If they didn't give any bread to eat, I would feed on hope. 

michael luce

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Jul 30, 2021, 10:35:43 PM7/30/21
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Very much appreciate your response here, Kevin. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2021, at 10:00 PM, Kevin Shuey <kas...@gmail.com> wrote:



Sheri R

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Jul 31, 2021, 12:43:27 AM7/31/21
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Stay, look, inquire until you see yourself in, and as, the other. 
Here is peace, love, acceptance, compassion. 
To bow out, or to stop at blame or shame or fear, is to perpetuate a sense of separateness.  

Peace and metta to you all! s

sonofs...@comcast.net

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Jul 31, 2021, 12:44:12 AM7/31/21
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Kevin,
 
You are much appreciated in this group, it seems to me.  I have the same feelings about misinformation that you do, the danger of it.  And I'm not leaving this group.  And neither should you, in my opinion, unless you want to.  My point is that I want to explore wherever self-inquiry will take us to see what is arising, to see it clearly.  And I think that's where you are at too, unless I misunderstood your poems.  And it's where I feel we all are as a group.  Disagreements are opportunities.  It feels like to me that we can settle down and explore whatever comes up next.  And I know I'd like for you to be a part of that.  For whatever that is worth.  I suspect the group feels that way too, but obviously I can't speak for them.
 
Jim

TERRI CORNWELL

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Jul 31, 2021, 7:15:01 AM7/31/21
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Kevin, 
I echo Jim’s comments. I, too, have the same feelings about misinformation. You are a valued voice….sometimes kicking the hornet’s nest is just what is needed…
Blessings,
Terri


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On Jul 31, 2021, at 1:52 AM, Sheri R <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:



Debi Lee

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Jul 31, 2021, 9:15:23 AM7/31/21
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Kevin, Jim, All,

Kevin, I thought it was made clear here, and I admitted that this is not the place for politics, even if the content were true. So I’m not sure why we’re here again. I don’t see conflict as a bad thing. It certainly doesn’t feel good but I’ve learned that trying to avoid it at all costs isn’t always the wisest action. I can, and do learn a lot from conflict, but it also wasn’t my intention to try and create it here. 

I would like to point out, however, that just because you, or anyone else, disagrees with information does not mean that it is “dangerous misinformation.”

Perhaps people would appreciate it if I bowed out. Perhaps folks here would like to vote me out, or like it if Paul kicked me out. Either way, at this point, I don’t feel the need to bow out. On one level, I can say that I made a mistake by getting really political here, again, because it doesn’t belong here. On another level, I could say that everything that has, and is transpiring here , right now is exactly what supposed to be happening. I’m could dig my heels in and stay stuck in some self righteous merry go round, well, no I can’t, I just accept that you, and others believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and it’s different, and I can honestly say that I can still sit next to you or think of you and feel love for you. I think that is so because of two things, Number one, I said what I needed to say for me and when I do that it seems to set me free, sometimes only after I’ve learned from it. And, because I know that in the big scheme of things it doesn’t make one bit of difference that we disagree politically or religiously or whatever, it’s not like any one of us has very much of, if any at all, choice in how we see things, feel things, or act……UNTIL Awareness comes in. It seems to me, it is at THAT point that things can then be seen, felt, and acted upon differently, but even in that case it is still not a personal choice. So anger or frustration or sadness can arise; can that be focused on or do we need to continue blaming something outside of ourselves for what is arising inside of ourselves? I have felt so much gratitude for the conflict in my life, usually not while I’m in it, but I think almost always after. Dare I say, thank God for conflict?

For those of you who attend the Thursday zoom meeting it might be some consolation that I decided to take a break from that three weeks ago. 

Jim, if I may clarify, I mentioned shame because of Sheri’s earlier comment. I never saw, heard, or felt that you were trying to shame me in anyway whatsoever. Feelings of disappointment, sadness and frustration came up for me, and fear also came up and when I faced that, it dissolved. If I was ashamed of what I have seen tons and tons of evidence for I would never have mentioned it. I know the feeling of shame well, it’s still lives in me, but not in relation to this. Jim, I would like to comment further on your post, and I plan to. I have a house guest and at this time I feel the need to end here for now. 

debi
🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 31, 2021, at 12:43 AM, Sheri R <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:



Dan Kilpatrick

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Jul 31, 2021, 10:45:26 AM7/31/21
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Jim, Kevin and All,

I want to come in here briefly. Jim's email rings true for me, in all its respects. Kevin, it seems to me we are free to move with however life seems to take us, without obligation or need for justification. In other words, no need for should or shouldn't in any of it.  

Also, I fully agree with Jim about there is no need to be concerned with whatever arises. Sometimes the most difficult personal circumstances, including our conditioning, brings such an energy as it arises that something in us is affected. This is my experience at least. LIfe can therefore be free to flow, affecting us in unknown ways. LIfe takes all of this into itself.

I want to also share something that just came in, from Adyashanti. It seems to have relevance in the present context:   When you allow everything to be as it is, all of a sudden there is this profound and beautiful intimacy with everything.” ~ Adyashanti   

 -Dan



Paul Rezendes

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Jul 31, 2021, 11:18:07 AM7/31/21
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Dear Diehards,

I would like to echo Jim's email as well. I will copy it here to be sure people know which email I'm talking about. It was very well said, and said everything I was going to say.

Kevin,
 
You are much appreciated in this group, it seems to me.  I have the same feelings about misinformation that you do, the danger of it.  And I'm not leaving this group.  And neither should you, in my opinion, unless you want to.  My point is that I want to explore wherever self-inquiry will take us to see what is arising, to see it clearly.  And I think that's where you are at too, unless I misunderstood your poems.  And it's where I feel we all are as a group.  Disagreements are opportunities.  It feels like to me that we can settle down and explore whatever comes up next.  And I know I'd like for you to be a part of that.  For whatever that is worth.  I suspect the group feels that way too, but obviously I can't speak for them.
 
Jim

The Diehards got its name because of a group of people that just hung in there. Before the Diehards existed (maybe 2010)  it was a group of maybe over 100 people. The emails were coming and going in a really big volume. Some people just couldn't take it and quit. At that time about 50 or so people hung in there. They weren't going to quit. I ended up calling them Diehards and that is how the group got its name. BTW: We are back up to 92 members.

So this is where the rubber meets the road, as the saying goes. Welcome to reality. Sometimes it's not very pretty, is it? What we are seeing take place here is what is taking place out there in human society. I'll be blunt. I think it's a damn mess. Logic and reason seem to have gone out the window. So much for the search for truth. Logic and reason do have their place, you don't just chuck it all out. At least that is how it looks to me. So, how are we going to deal with that? It seems to me that you have all done such a really good job and have been very sensitive to each other, actually very kind.

We have never talked about things like politics, Q-Anon, flatearthers, the Illuminati, etc. on the Diehards till now, but here we are. What’s real, actual? It seems to me that most of this stuff is just stuff in our heads. Like national boundaries, religions, we kill and fight over this stuff constantly...  It is not actual, just ideas in our heads. OK, where do we go from here? It will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

🙏🏽

Paul


Dan Kilpatrick

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Jul 31, 2021, 11:55:02 AM7/31/21
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Paul and Everyone,

Chiming in to second Paul's comments here. I would also say that what may be really moving in all of this, however far-off it might seem, may be the same thing we are always talking about here on the Diehards, just in a different form. It seems to me there is reactivity to something, and this is happening in a back and forth sort of way. There is an energy that is moving in all of it, that seems separate and localized to one or another person. But in  actuality it is a single movement, shared. There may be a reaction to a sense of authority, for example, that then leads to adopting views simply because they go against what someone else is saying. In this, what is true is quite secondary, what is important is to not be taken over by a perceived authority. And in turn, there is a reaction that says this reactivity shouldn't be happening. So in reality, all of this mess is simply division moving in a very outfront way. It has taken over the day, so to speak. I know this is also what Paul and others are saying. But it points to how it is happening, here, now. 

So can we look at division moving in us? Can we not avoid reactivity that moves for its own sake within us, preserving and reinforcing itself? Can we not be separate from it, so it can move in awareness and have its action on us? It is a living energy. This seems to be the challenge that life is giving us in any given moment, including here on the Diehards. Suddenly, covid, QAnon etc seem to have dropped into the background. Now, there is just this very real movement happening in us. The form it takes is quite secondary. it has been moving in our human condition for millenia. The challenge remains the same, it seems to me.   -Dan

Kevin Shuey

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Jul 31, 2021, 12:12:39 PM7/31/21
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Dear Diehards,

Thank you all for your openheartedness (if that’s a word.) I have learned a lot about myself - not all pretty - these past few days, just by watching in the mirror this group can be. I value how that can help in individual self-inquiry. I appreciate the expressions of welcome. Good advise Sheri, - stay, look, inquire…  Debi, it was not my intention to pick at a scab, I just felt the need to put my original comment in context. Thank you all, including Debi, for continually bringing the focus back to self-inquiry. I will do my best to do the same. But mostly, I’ll just listen.

I’ll finish with a dip in one of Paul’s favorite metaphors:

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

My feet are in the ocean

   The waves are in my ears

But the notion that I’m separate

   Is the source of all my tears

 

-ks

Paul Rezendes

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Jul 31, 2021, 12:30:25 PM7/31/21
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Love those poems Kevin.

Paul




JIM PETERSON

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Jul 31, 2021, 1:17:47 PM7/31/21
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Thank you Dan and Paul and Kevin and Debi and Terri and all the Diehards.  It feels to me that we are really turning together toward a more objective seeing, toward clarity.  I feel that Dan encapsulated what the Diehards are all about, especially when considered together with Paul's reminder of the Diehards' origins.  Here is what Dan said:
 
"So can we look at division moving in us? Can we not avoid reactivity that moves for its own sake within us, preserving and reinforcing itself? Can we not be separate from it, so it can move in awareness and have its action on us? It is a living energy. This seems to be the challenge that life is giving us in any given moment, including here on the Diehards. Suddenly, covid, QAnon etc seem to have dropped into the background. Now, there is just this very real movement happening in us. The form it takes is quite secondary. it has been moving in our human condition for millenia. The challenge remains the same, it seems to me.   -Dan"
 
What a perfect question: "So can we look at division moving in us?"  So often we are trying to avoid or escape division and aren't seeing it moving in us objectively, but instead are identifying with our held positions (I'm avoiding words like opinions and beliefs etc. in favor of a more objective phrase).  That identifying separates us, and then multiplies by creating conflict between us.  Reaction upon reaction sends that separating energy far out into the relative world which is already so divided in this way that it can barely function at all.  Identity too is arising in Awareness.  So can we look at identifying moving within us?  Can we see defensiveness arising within Awareness?  Can we see it moving within us?  The need to defend is a powerful indicator of separation and promoting the self, perhaps unconsciously.  But there is a waking up to that, and there is seeing, revealing all of it without prejudice.  As Dan says, "The challenge remains the same" no matter what arises in Awareness, no matter what is moving within us.  
 
I guess I'm just repeating Dan, faithfully I hope.  And maybe it bears repeating.  And repeating.  Identifying isn't going anywhere soon.  But can we see it?
 
Jim
 

 

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Dan Kilpatrick

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Jul 31, 2021, 2:00:47 PM7/31/21
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Jim, and All,

It seems to me that your sharing here is exactly what you are speaking of. To see the significance of all of this movement implies a seeing of this movement, not as an abstraction, but the feel and energy of division within us. It is what it means to be sensitive, to be affected.  Thank you for expounding on all this.   -Dan

Debi Lee

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Aug 1, 2021, 7:47:35 AM8/1/21
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Terri,

From where I'm sitting, it looks and feels as though I'm the one who kicked the hornets nest. I agree with you when you say, "sometimes kicking the hornets nest is just what is needed." 

What I also hear you not saying is that my voice, nor me as a fellow human being is valued by you. Even though I value my opinion of myself above anyone else's in this entire world,  it still hurts to feel that; my sense is you're not alone here. Feelings of anger, hurt and fear came up within when I read your post. I sat with it long enough to not only see how it's another link in the same chain here (it brought up memories and patterns), but to feel a sense of compassion for you. I've had to do it a  number of times, it's kind of like the dancing with the cramps in my legs and feet that come during my yoga classes almost daily. Whether it was your intention or not to trigger distressing feelings within me, I actually dance in and out of feeling like I cherish your post more than Sheri's or Janet's where I felt supported and valued as a human being because It's the conflict that gets triggered in me that forces me to look within. My intention is to sit with the layers of anger, hurt, and fear your post triggered in me, (after my guest leaves) with sustained attention until I land where I always land, when I sit with sustained attention, with what's going on within me and that is the 'place' of love. 

Perhaps people think I owe an apology here. If I thought I harmed anyone here, I would most definitely apologize and do anything I could to 'make it right.' If anyone thinks I owe an apology here, I'm all ears. 

Blessings to you always, Terri.

debi

Sheri R

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Aug 1, 2021, 8:46:05 AM8/1/21
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No apology necessary, Deb. At  least in the opinion of this Diehard. 

In unedited language; I don't give a rat's ass about misinformation for a couple of reasons; 
1. I don't really know and can't really know what is and is not misinformation. At the end of the day I can only ever know awareness of the perception, the 'what' of perception is highly, highly subjective and therefor all information can be said to be misinformation because it's filtered through brain and spit out the other side as concept (and that might very well be an opinion)
2. I am infinitely  more interested in context, that is, understanding how someone has come to such an opinion/position/belief and what their orientation is to it and to others. In this there is, as much as is possible, movement to try to understand another. And by understanding another I mean to try to see where their identification is that is leading to division and sense of separateness. A lot of things make sense with enough context and when seen from another's perspective
3. There is not an ounce of doubt that I too could have been a serial killer, a rapist, a Q-anon supporter or rebuker, a monk, saint and common person, given one degree of change to any of the context items 'I' have absolutely no control over; ie born into an ashram setting, having a mentally ill parent, having be assaulted as a child.  
I am all of these or none of these....... and perhaps neither.  

With love as always. 

Janet Asiain

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Aug 1, 2021, 10:52:25 AM8/1/21
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Ditto, Sheri (and Diehards).

My version: what we believe, especially when it's somebody else's story/information, and maybe it always is, gives us information about ourselves and very little else. I personally can misinterpret almost anything, including first-hand sensory data. The clue is in the word "interpret." And absolutely, we all have the potential to do anything that anybody else does or ever did. 

🕊Janet🕊





Sent from my iPhone

Mary Alfieri

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Aug 1, 2021, 12:17:08 PM8/1/21
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Dear Diehards--

I'll probably regret posting this, but here goes:

While I read all the posts on this forum, I rarely post myself because I still feel new here. But I felt I had to respond to this thread.

I find all this rather disturbing. I do “give a rat’s ass” about disinformation, and can very easily tell what’s nonsense by doing a simple search.  You have to twist yourself into quite a pretzel to believe any of the conspiracy theories about being implanted with 5g, or the world being run by the Illuminati (a very anti-Semitic trope).

Back in the 80s and 90s I was entertained by some of the conspiracy theories at the time, which seemed quite innocent (compared to the dangerous stuff today)—ufos, crop circles, the theories about the JFK assassination, even the 9/11 stuff. But I always went to reliable sources to check them out, and while there were always some things unexplained, most of the conspiracy theories were built on quicksand. As the saying goes, "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out." What I learned about conspiracy theories I applied to my search into the nature of reality, staying away from groups that had charismatic leaders, abusive tactics, and rigid belief systems. And very rarely getting involved with any groups at all.

Not long ago, there was a group of people who met in the park below our apartment terrace. I could never hear what they were saying, but it was apparently some kind of spiritual thing, they had a big book, and this man, the leader, gave some kind of talk. We got to calling them “the cult,” because that’s what it appeared to be.

Soon after, when I went off to my room for our Thursday night Conversations meetings, my husband would say, jokingly (I hope), “oh, you have the cult tonight.” It made me cringe. 

If there’s one thing I’ve appreciated about the TAT group and the Diehards, and the Conversations group, is that there is no leader, no set of beliefs, and an intellectual approach to finding the truth. If I had to categorize it, I like to think of it as more akin to philosophy than religion. But even though we can quote Einstein, Boehm and Emerson, if you try to explain Nonduality to the average person you wind up sounding batshit crazy. So I am concerned lest we be even more tarred by being connected with the Qanon crowd.

A couple of years ago, I was surprised and distressed to see that Bart Marshall, one of the founding members of TAT, had a Twitter account in which he posted and retweeted all sorts of Qanon memes, very racist, far-right, hateful posts (for instance, that Michelle Obama is a man). At first I thought his account had been hacked, then I checked his Facebook page and found the same, although slightly tamer stuff there. He even gave a somewhat rambling excuse for why he was into that stuff, after some of his Facebook followers questioned him. His Twitter account has since disappeared, perhaps in the Twitter disinformation purge of anti-vaxxer disinformation. His Facebook page still exists, although he hasn’t posted there in a while. He has even written about some of his conspiracy theory stuff in an otherwise interesting autobiography, so I don’t think I am giving away anything that he has not made apparent himself.

I was concerned at the time that the TAT foundation I had recently joined was into Qanon, since Bart was. I had an email exchange with Shawn Nevins and found this was not the case. 

Bart's Twitter account has since disappeared, perhaps in the Twitter disinformation purge of anti-vaxxer disinformation. His Facebook page still exists, although he hasn’t posted there in a while. He has even written about some of his conspiracy theory stuff in an otherwise interesting autobiography, and talked about "The Great Awakening" in his last TAT presentation, so I don’t think I am giving away anything that he has not made apparent himself. And perhaps Bart can be given a pass, since he went through a serious mental illness.

As many of you must realize, Nonduality and the spiritual search attracts people with problems, looking for relief, help and control over their lives. Unfortunately, this means that a fair amount of them are gullible. If you google “spirituality and Qanon” you will find a bunch of articles on how conspiracy theories have infiltrated the spirituality scene. There is even an Apple Podcast called “Conspirituality” that focuses on this.

So I am concerned about just accepting this kind of thing without calling it out. I think Kevin’s first post had the right tone. Conspiracy theories and Qanon are not just “politics”, they are dangerous superstition and hateful rhetoric.

Sincerely,

Mary

Kevin Shuey

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Aug 1, 2021, 12:27:45 PM8/1/21
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Mary, Diehards,
Thank you Mary. Well said.
Kevin

On Aug 1, 2021, at 12:17, Mary Alfieri <alphies...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Diehards--

JIM PETERSON

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Aug 1, 2021, 1:51:11 PM8/1/21
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My Dear Friends of Diehards,
 
How do the purposes of a group like Q-Anon spread?  I want to use this as a means to return to self-inquiry, if I may attempt to do so.  But to get to that point, I want to express some observations that I believe are true.  We can call them premises.  The originators of conspiracy theories do not believe the theories themselves.  Their purpose isn't to spread the truth; their purpose is to sow discord.  Their version of having influence is to disrupt the order as radically as they can.  That brings them great delight, and it gives them their opening to increase their influence and power.  They have become masters of the Meme.  They throw many of them out there trying to see which ones of them will fire up the belief systems of unsuspecting people all over the world.  They know that people are extraordinarily gullible.  But there is a different gullibility that is revealed.  It's not the gullibility of believing a conspiracy theory, but the gullibility of once again thinking we have to engage in conflict to defend ourselves against them.  What conspiracy theorists know is that one believer expressing himself or herself can produce a lot of reactivity in terms of fear, anxiety, even hatred, and maybe violence.  They understand the entire mechanism of belief and the way it promotes the separate self and sows conflict and even violence among us.  If the conspiracy theorists could see us right now, they would be so happy, not because we are believing the theories but because we are starting to fight over them, starting to separate ourselves into conflicting factions.  They would be laughing with joy!  They would be laughing partly because they know just how hard it is for us to let go of our rigid opinions and beliefs for even a moment, for even the sake of a wonderful group like the Diehards.  When I really get my back up, when I really get into an angry argument with someone, when I am glaring into the eyes of my adversary, what I have discovered is that I'm looking straight into a mirror.  If I can wake up for just a second, I know that I am seeing myself, seeing all of the vicious certainty of my own selfhood.  How is it that the conspiracy theorists have so much more understanding and clarity about the mechanisms of selfing than we do, we who actually claim to be inquiring into those mechanisms!?  Can we wake up for just a moment and see the mechanism working within us right now?  The conspiracy theorists are pushing our buttons in order to create conflict and we aren't waking up enough in this moment to see it.  We still think it's all about the content of our beliefs.  Notice how difficult it is to let go of them.  Notice how difficult it is to stop asserting our selfness against the selves of others.  I can feel it happening in my own body and mind right now.  I want to assert my opinions against "yours" to show how right I am because that preserves the self in the face of its own terrifying insecurity.  If I don't have these strong, righteous opinions, then, oh my God, I don't exist!  So I'm just asking if we can work together to see what is happening, to see what we are doing.  We have started down a dark road that the conspiracy theorists have created.  Can we see that whole process with some clarity and stop for a moment, and discover the openness revealing that everything is arising in Awareness without any prejudice as to right and wrong, good and bad?  These are the questions I am asking, my friends, and I do not know the answers.  Would this be a good time to inquire into it?  Or, we could spend a lot of time arguing about how these beliefs are better than, more important than, truer than, those beliefs.  But we are so sure, aren't we, that our beliefs are the true ones?  And on it goes.
 
Forgive me for getting a little carried away.
 
Jim

terrilc...@aol.com

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Aug 1, 2021, 2:14:05 PM8/1/21
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(I haven't read Jim's latest post...but wanted to send this while it was fresh...)

Mary, Debi, and all:
Mary posted before I could send my response to Debi, so, first, thank you, Mary, for your thoughtful comment. I, too, was concerned with Bart's remarks at the one TAT online retreat I attended. I spoke with Leesa and Steve about that, and they reassured me that "those comment were unlike Bart" (it seems they may have been more "like Bart," however, according to your research). My concern is also, as you write, "dangerous superstition and hateful rhetoric," especially anything related to racism. I may have mentioned to the group before, but my adult children are adopted Asian individuals, and we have had to deal with hateful, racist rhetoric over the years, so any "languaging" that continues to divide humans for selfish (the "false self" again) purposes is to be avoided. 

[Mary, I had to chuckle when reading your husband's comments. My husband has listened in on a number of our Thursday evening conversations and has actually "learned" quite a bit. He hasn't called the group a "cult" yet, so that is promising!]

Debi, I guess you are right that you were the one "who kicked the hornets' nest" first. I had directed my comment to Kevin by way of support because he helped move this thread into a move participative level. If you heard from my brief comments that you are not valued as a human being and that you experienced feelings of anger, hurt and fear, I apologize. I value everyone in this group, and your comments have pushed many of us to deeper levels of self-inquiry -- the goal of the group. 

My anger is aroused when I hear racist comments, when obvious facts (like what took place on 1/6) are distorted and people are maligned for selfless acts in the protection of others, or when proven scientific data is ignored and too many people die because of it. But I continue to remain open to what makes people fall into those categories. I try to understand motivations, and I research and watch documentaries (like the one on QAnon on Netflix recently) to educate myself on the "languaging" of those espousing conspiracy theories. 

As most of us, I continue to struggle with recognizing myself in others. In his book Being Peace Thich Nhat Hanh wrote about working for peace, "because all of us are to some extent responsible for this state of affairs" (66). He illustrated his advice with a poem, "Please Call Me By My True Names." The poem concludes: "Please call me by my true names,/ so I can wake up/and the door of my heart can be left open,/ the door of compassion."

Christians express the compassion of Thich Nhat Hanh by trying to see everyone "through the eyes of Jesus" or by seeing Jesus in eveyone (...for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me... ).

The more compassion we have for others, the less space there is for the "false self." Perhaps our best self-inquiry is when we forget ourselves and have compassion for others (that can be a form of "flow," as well).

Blessings to all of you,
Terri



terrilc...@aol.com

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Aug 1, 2021, 2:19:01 PM8/1/21
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Thanks, Jim. Well said about those trying to divide everyone. I agree with you regarding "beliefs" and how that can divide us. I would ask, however, about what we consider as "facts." How do "facts" play into all this? (...putting the discussion of beliefs aside for the moment).
Terri


-----Original Message-----
From: JIM PETERSON <sonofs...@comcast.net>
To: diehar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 1, 2021 1:51 pm
Subject: Re: Consider the mechanism

sonofs...@comcast.net

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Aug 1, 2021, 3:06:00 PM8/1/21
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Thank you for your question about facts, Terri.  Obviously there are more than a few ways to see this.  There surely are facts in the world, but discerning precisely what they are can be tricky.  I have noticed in debates I've had with people that they consider the facts I present to be just opinions or beliefs.  When they present their facts, I consider them to be just opinions.  We get lost in needing to win, to be right, to stand our self up for what is superior.  So in this sense, the self can cling to its facts just as it clings to its beliefs.  Let me make it clear that I agree with everything Mary said.  My facts align with hers and yours and Kevin's.  Ever since Bart's Q'anon TAT presentation, I haven't been able to trust him.  My life out in the world reflects the facts that I have gathered about what is happening.  But the mechanism of selfing is just as capable of using facts to divide us as it is in using beliefs.  It's very easy to write someone else's facts off as just opinions.  I feel that I personally want to stay alert about what is going on within this particular body mind, even when I'm presenting or supporting "facts."  If I lose contact with Awareness and I'm just using facts to create division and bolster the self, I want to see that mechanism clearly.  That watchfulness seems to be pretty much on automatic pilot for me now.  And then both slowly and suddenly the subtle layers of my unconscious assumptions are peeled back.  Can I apply self-inquiry at all times?  No, but it seems to be happening on its own.  What is ultimately seen is that all of it, everything, is arising in Awareness where it is seen with clarity.  Out of that comes compassion, because every one of us is caught up in selfing.  How can we help each other?  In the context of a group like this one, I feel that we can continue to press Awareness of the underlying assumptions of self, Awareness of the mechanisms of selfing.  And even facts can be used by the self to divide us.  There are no easy solutions to this.  But it seems to me that we have to keep inquiring, investigating, seeing as best we can.  This group helps with all of that.
 
With love,
 
Jim

Paul Rezendes

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Aug 1, 2021, 6:32:14 PM8/1/21
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Dear Diehards,

I have been reading through all your emails and re-reading through them. I have been very hesitant to chime in. Sometimes I think I get a little too blunt.

First of all, I especially appreciate Kevin, Mary, and Jim's input here. Not sure how to say this: I feel like some of this is over the top. Like the earth is flat, give me a break. A tree is a fact, go bump your head against it. The world being flat is just not logical. We just don't throw our brains away. For many years I've done a lot of navigation.
 


Note the lines of longitude. They're not evenly spaced top to bottom. Every time we use a GPS, every time we use our phone, it uses these lines of latitude and longitude to place us absolutely within feet of where we are on this planet earth. Those lines would not work if the World was flat!!! That is a simple absolutely provable scientific fact beyond a doubt. If we can't even agree about that, how can we do something like self-inquiry?

OK, I'm a little blown away by all these conspiracy theories and have no use for them.

I'm hoping we can leave those behind and just continue on the way we usually do with our self-inquiry. 

Talking about self-inquiry... I have a question here: are we actually doing self-inquiry? Or maybe we just need attention? We're just manipulating the conversation to get some attention. Whether it is positive or negative it doesn't matter. We just want attention. So, what is it we're doing?

OK, I probably pissed a bunch of people off, but there you go.

Paul



Armando Verea

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Aug 1, 2021, 7:53:42 PM8/1/21
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Estimado Paul,

Thank you for your bluntness...if you bump your head against a tree there is pain which is a fact...suffering comes after. 
Best to all

Sheri R

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Aug 1, 2021, 10:25:06 PM8/1/21
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Dearest Diehards, 

I'm gonna chime in one more time and then, with deepest gratitude for all of you, bow out. 

Thank you Mary for your thoughtful response! 
And thank you Jim for bringing this back to what we are here for; a deeper 'knowing' or 'understanding' of how this whole thing manifests. I feel as though what you have said here, ' and discover the openness revealing that everything is arising in Awareness without any prejudice as to right and wrong, good and bad?', is what I have been trying to articulate. Though the language I've used is unnecessarily harsh (not giving a rat's ass), I've tried to be clear and concise with articulation.  
A softer way to say I don't give a rat's ass is to simply say; I don't mind if Debi brings in her views. Her offering context helps me to understand her better. I don't mind that Kevin responded as he did. His context was also helpful to understand how he got there. I don't mind  Mary and Jim expressing their opinions either. I also did not mind listening to Bart M. at the TAT forum go on about underground tunnels and eradicating child traffickers. 
I am by no means however a 'push over' or 'love drunk' (I know, I know, hard to believe as I'm canadian and all! :) ). But, in fact, I feel quite clear and at peace with all this. 
I started to give more context to this last sentence, but deleted it. It doesn't matter. We find it for ourselves. 

Be well and see you all on a new thread! With love, s

Debi Lee

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Aug 1, 2021, 10:49:49 PM8/1/21
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Sheri, I'm on the same page with everything you wrote here. I think the point of a conversation should be to try to understand each other, but even when I don't know the specifics of how or why, I believe that if I walked a lifetime in anyone's shoes, I have zero doubt that I'd be exactly the same. And, when I'm reminded of that, I get knocked on the humble and compassion arises. Your post really resonates with me, I see truth, wisdom, compassion, and a passion for the truth, not looking for ways to strengthen the ego, or stroke someone else's. One of my favs, I love this by Thich Nhat Hanh: "When you plant lettuce, if it does not grow well, you don't blame the lettuce. You look for the reason it is not doing well. It may need fertilizer, or more water, or less sun. You never blame the lettuce. Yet if we have problems with our friends or family, we blame the other person. But if we know how to take care of them, they will grow well, like the lettuce. Blaming has no positive effect at all, nor does trying to persuade using reason and argument. That is my experience. No blame, no reasoning, no argument, just understanding. If you understand, and you show that you understand, you can love and the situation will change."  Sheri and Janet, Jim and Dan, I have felt this in your posts, since the time I appeared in this group. With tears in my eyes, I wish I wouldn't have waited so long to tell you this. You've always kept it real and about self inquiry.

Janet, Ditto. And, when we look, we give ourselves the gift of the possibility of new information coming in. 

Mary, Kevin...all, I'm no 'q anoner,' I believe it's BS, more fear mongering, zero doubt. I don't claim to know the truth about anything, just beliefs that can be altered with enough evidence, but the continued posts regarding intolerance of another's beliefs, of which people know only a fraction of, and putting all 'conspiracy theorists' in one box, has the feel of a hate group to me. I also agree and echo that dangerous misinformation is being spread, what that is, is where we disagree, and I believe this world is moving in a terrible direction, and I've kept my mouth shut about it since my original post b/c I thought that's what was agreed upon, but apparently not, so I'll say this: I am not living my life in daily fear of death, restricting my intake of oxygen, breathing in carbon dioxide and the bacteria that is growing inside those masks as the moisture builds up, and the chemicals those masks contain, nor do I condone the psychological damage wearing masks is doing to our children. I feel anger when I see parents covering their children's mouths and noses, but I don't feel enraged with anyone here because they have differing political beliefs, live in fear, wear a mask, or get vaccinated. When I recall a root of my own anger, which is suffering and i see someone else's anger, compassion for the other almost always naturally arises. Sometimes, even knowing that when someone intentionally tries to harm another it only comes about because the other is suffering deeply, compassion does not always arise.

Paul and Jim say this political talk is not what the group is for and people, including Paul and Jim, continue either bringing the topic of conversation back to 'dangerous misinformation,' 'q anon,' conspiracy theories, etc, or responding to others which spurs more "appreciation" and "value" for certain beliefs and more 'political' comments, then back to, 'this is not what the group is for.' It's either done innocently/ignorantly and/or deliberately, either way, I'll ask the ones who continue bringing it up and spurring it on, (including myself bc I just did it again above) what I try to ask myself throughout each day: are you more interested in being right and ensuring your ego survives or are you willing to die?  When my desire for Truth is stronger than any other desire, that's all I need for Realization. I don't need any guru, group, book or video. I propose that not one of us knows the whole truth regarding what the hell has been, is, or will be going on in this world even next year, so can we please stop pretending that we do? 

Terri, you don't owe me any apology. I spoke what i felt as I saw myself wanting to hide and deny. I wanted to see what came up for me after being honest here. I also believe I have a much better chance of sitting with it b/c I said I would, and I have no doubt that I will benefit from that...so it's me being selfish in sharing my feelings here.   I was not seeking an apology from you. There's a part of me that genuinely appreciates being triggered because I know that unless certain things triggered, they won't come up far enough for me to see them. Maybe wanting my shit to arise is part of my "mental illness." 

From Douglas Hardings book, Look for Yourself, The Science and Art of Self-Realization: "A living thing (scientists tell us) is an organization of nonliving things. The salts of our blood, the acid of our stomachs, and the calcium of our bones are clearly not alive, but neither are the atoms comprising our living cells. What is physics or chemistry at one observational level is human being at another level, and at once alive and not alive. All depends on whether we take the thing to pieces or not. But if the pieces, as pieces, are lifeless, where shall we set the boundaries of the living whole? If by the whole man we mean one who is independent and self-contained, we can hardly leave out the air in his lungs and the sweat on his brow ---at least nobody has pointed out where these cease to be organism and start  being environment. And if they are caught up in the living whole of him, why not the tools without which he would starve to death and the clothes without which he would freeze to death? After all, he is far more dependent on his shoes than his toenails, and upon his good false teeth than on his bad real ones. They have become part and parcel of his life." 

Who can puff themselves up after reading this? 

the very dangerous, mentally ill one, formerly known as debi

Rob LO

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Aug 2, 2021, 6:50:25 AM8/2/21
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Dearest Diehards

I have been trying to orientate mind, body and feelings in order to navigate the recent apparently turbulent but resonating threads and posts and strings in the music of your voices to find the underling uni-versal score and I wonder about the conductor, and the movement of energy, life. But my instruments are off. I do not know which is up or down North and South are arbitrary directions, as is labelling the wind as blowing when air moves usually to areas of lower pressure so technically it is sucked ;-)

In an act akin to a factory reset, I found this lodestone on the Welcome Page!

"Welcome to the Diehard Discussion group.

We are a group of people inquiring into human consciousness through dialogue.

Some of the content of these emails might reflect on the explorations of a diverse selection of people such as:

J. Krishnamurti, David Bohm, Adyashanti, Eckhart Tolle, Scott Kiloby, Alan Watts, St. John of the Cross, Steven Harrison and others."

The Diehards group members appear to me as diverse as the diverse selection of people to be explored.

Bohm is on that list and he presented a model of how we, humans, create or come to believe in reality and truth. As we humans, see it. 
[I would dearly love to explore the quote in a thread at some point]

The very mechanisms, tools we are using, here (Google Groups, and email, the editor I am bashing symbols on with my thumb) as I stand in a stand of trees in woodland close to home. Is only possible because we are all standing on the shoulders of Giants. Systems, world wide web and the internet, computers and mobile phones looking at a screen right now. Technology, and science are not the problem,  in my view. It is how people use, exploit technology, and systems and allow themselves to manipulate and be manipulated. How I manage, my own baggage, biases, limited perspectives and prejudices conscious and unconscious, affects how clearly the actual is encountered. There are over 7 billion versions of the truth or perspectives on the planet currently (I believe!)

How much of what appears in these threads is actual, versus just thought or personal perspective, preference or opinion. I do not know. But I feel I owe it to myself and fellow navigators to test reality, and experience. So far I have found body, mind, soul, head, heart and gut, to all be on occasions fallible! If I am certain of anything it is that I am uncertain of many things. Hence the seeking, for the metaphorical, philosophers stone, holy grail or the barrel in Rumi's Tavern. Truth, the peace that passeth understanding.

There seems to be great store placed on feelings and intuitions less so on thinking.

I have found thought on occasions to be a useful tool but always a lousy master. 

Do not try to tell me that folks here have not been thinking before they engaged with their key pads or keyboards. I am past censorship of my words now I have begun, but I have been biting my lips not knowing how to avoid treading on egg shells or tearing the rice paper.

I will finish with the Bohm quote that brought me to this Dialogue group.

I am still wondering what dialogue is can anyone explain? how it is different from argument and debate?

Bohm's Quote

Reality is what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is what we believe.
What we believe is based on our perceptions.
What we perceive depends on what we look for.
What we look for depends on what we think.
What we think depends on what we percieve.
What we perceive determines what we believe.
What we believe determines what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is our reality. 

.... David Bohm

Respectfully
Rob, 

(... the guy who eats the menu, and mistakes the map for the territory)

Yoo-Hoo! or is it You-Who?

(Do I need to put a tin hat on? or just turn the other cheek?)

Bonus material: Ignore or enjoy


Recognising Our Biases:
50 Cognitive Biases

Kevin Shuey

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Aug 2, 2021, 8:07:55 AM8/2/21
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Thank you, Rob - for the post, and the smile, and the wink, and the link!
ks

On Aug 2, 2021, at 06:50, Rob LO <bein...@gmail.com> wrote:


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Dan Kilpatrick

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Aug 2, 2021, 10:32:07 AM8/2/21
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Rob and Everyone,

Thanks for contributing your thoughts and impression here Rob. Not sure we can do anything other than this, all at the same time realizing they are impressions. The last part seems to get at your question of what dialogue is, at least from where I sit. It is the shared noticing of what is arising, which is the awareness of what is arising. It is a sort of shared space or spaciousness, if you will, in which that which is, what is arising, is free to arise just as it is. This simple action, of not resisting (reacting to) what is arising, has its own action imho. We are always looking for results, when change lies in the simple moving with what is. What is changing is what has already changed in the presence of this space: our relationship with ourselves. There is no argument with ourselves or what is, as we are. The content is not what is important, it is how all of it is being viewed. So change is not about results, but in no longer needing them.

Nothing needs to be done for this space to be present, imho, it is here now.  It is here in the simple noticing of what is moving in us, and in listening to each other. It seems to me that we begin to see ourselves reflected in what others say, as well. Suddenly the barriers and boundaries have slipped away and we are all part of something shared.  This brings me back to the quote from Adyashanti I recently shared...... I can't see how love is not involved in all of this.  -Dan

Janet Asiain

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Aug 2, 2021, 3:08:14 PM8/2/21
to diehar...@googlegroups.com, kilp...@gmail.com
Diehards

I'd seen this article before --
I wonder if it would be useful
to explore our responses to the
situation -- not what anyone
should do but how we're meeting
life in this situation inwardly. 
Just a thought -

Janet


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 28, 2021, at 2:00 PM, terrilcornwell via Diehard Group <diehar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

In case you couldn't read the article, here is at least most of it:

Beyond human endurance

How climate change is making parts of the world too hot and humid to survive

Deadly heat waves have swept the globe and will continue to because of climate change.
The trends are prompting doomsday questions: Will parts of the world soon become too hot to live in? How will we survive?
 and 
July 28, 2021
When it comes to heat, the human body is remarkably resilient — it’s the humidity that makes it harder to cool down. And humidity, driven in part by climate change, is increasing.
A measurement of the combination of heat and humidity is called a “wet-bulb temperature,” which is determined by wrapping a completely wet wick around the bulb of a thermometer. Scientists are using this metric to figure out which regions of the world may become too dangerous for humans.
A term we rarely hear about, the wet-bulb temperature reflects not only heat, but also how much water is in the air. The higher that number is, the harder it is for sweat to evaporate and for bodies to cool down.
At a certain threshold of heat and humidity, “it’s no longer possible to be able to sweat fast enough to prevent overheating,” said Radley Horton a professor at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory.
Scientists have found that Mexico and Central America, the Persian Gulf, India, Pakistan and Southeast Asia are all careening toward this threshold before the end of the century.
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“Humid heat risks are grossly underestimated today and will increase dramatically in the future,” Horton said. “As locations around the world experience previously rare or unprecedented extremes with increasing frequency, we run the risk that our previous messaging about extreme heat risk — already woefully inadequate — will fall further short of the mark.”
You might think that being closer to the beach would be a great way to catch that ocean breeze and cool off. But Horton said proximity to water in extreme conditions could make things worse. As warming temperatures cause the water to evaporate, it adds humidity to the air.
“If you’re sitting in a city along the Persian Gulf, the sea breeze could be a deadly breeze,” he said.
To better understand why these places are becoming too hot and humid for humans to endure, you have to first understand how the body cools itself.
As the sun heats up the air, the ground, objects and people, the human body will react in an effort to cool itself.
The skin sweats. Evaporation of this water cools the body — as long as the surrounding humidity levels allow the evaporation to take place.
If the hot air is too humid, that heat exchange is blocked and the body loses its primary means of cooling itself.
The wet-bulb temperature that marks the upper limit of what the human body can handle is 95 degrees Fahrenheit (35 Celsius). But any temperatures above 86 degrees Fahrenheit (30 Celsius) can be dangerous and deadly. Horton and other scientists noted in a 2020 paper that these temperatures are occurring with increasing frequency in parts of the world. To put things in perspective, the highest wet-bulb temperature ever recorded in the Washington region, known for its muggy, unbearable summers, was 87.2 degrees (30.7 Celsius).
“Extreme humid heat overall has more than doubled in frequency since 1979,” the study’s authors wrote.
These conditions are reaching that deadly threshold in places like South Asia and the Middle East and could regularly cross it by 2075, scientists say.
Observed global extreme humid heat
Daily maximum wet-bulb temperature
85-88°F
More than 90°F
Less than 80°F
80-85°F
88-90°F
Loreto,
Mexico
El Fuerte,
Mexico
Abu Dhabi,
U.A.E.
Muscat,
Oman
Note: Symbols represent the 99.9th percentile of observed daily maximum wet-bulb temperature for 1979–2017 for HadISD stations with at least 50% data availability
over this period.
Source: "The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance" by Colin Raymond, Tom Matthews and Radley M. Horton, published by Science Advances by the American Association for the Advancement of Science
Horton and his colleagues found parts of the United Arab Emirates and Pakistan have each passed the 95 degree mark for one or two hours more than three times since 1987.
On the coast of the Gulf of California, in the Mexican state of Sonora, scientists are also seeing a “very significant” increase in wet-bulb and air temperatures, said Tereza Cavazos, a senior researcher in the department of physical oceanography at the Ensenada Center for Scientific Research and Higher Education.
During the summer, parts of the gulf can reach temperatures of 86 to 87.8 degrees Fahrenheit (30 to 31 degrees Celsius), which causes the water to evaporate more quickly. The combination of warmer waters and increasing heat trends in Sonora are causing the wet-bulb temperatures to reach dangerous levels.
Story continues below advertisement
“Just increasing 1 or 2 degrees Celsius can be the tipping point for changing the impact,” Cavazos said.
The blistering heat is resulting in difficult living conditions, especially for communities that lack resources to provide relief.

Why some will survive while others die

Even below these thresholds, cooling down is hard work on the body. The efforts to fight the effects of heat puts pressure on your heart and kidneys. With extreme heat, people’s organs can start to fail. If you have preexisting conditions, it’s even more likely.
As your body works to cool down, the heart works harder in an effort to pump blood up just below the surface of the skin, where it can get cooler.
The kidneys work harder to conserve your body’s water.
When your body temperature gets too high, it will ultimately cause your body’s proteins to break down, its enzymes to stop regulating your organs’ functions and your organs to start shutting down.
This is a heat stroke: Your body essentially cooks to the point where you have multi-organ failure.
In heat waves, many deaths are due to health problems exacerbated by the extreme conditions.
“It’s very clear during a heat wave, more people do die of heat stroke,” said Zachary Schlader, an associate professor at Indiana University Bloomington who focuses on thermal stress and the human body. But even more die of heart-related conditions. “The body responds [to heat] in such a way it could make the organ vulnerable.”
During heat waves there are some simple ways to take care of your body.
If you have air conditioning, the solution is simple: Go inside.
If you don’t have those resources, hydrate. Drinking water can ease the load on the heart, kidneys and other organs.
Take a break: Even moderate physical exertion such as walking greatly increases the heat your body’s muscles will generate.
Protecting yourself from such stress is inextricably tied to socioeconomic status and resources.
“The poorest people are the most vulnerable, and they are already suffering,” Cavazos said, noting that Sonora depends on farming, meaning a lot of people have to engage in physical labor in the dangerous heat.
In regions like the Persian Gulf, extreme heat is the new normal: Qatar has adapted so extensively to the blistering climate that it air-conditions the outdoors. But not everyone has access to outdoor air conditioning, including those building the facilities that have them. When the wealthy country began construction on venues to host the 2022 World Cup, it faced an uproar over its treatment of workers building the stadiums.
In 2019, the United Nations warned during the four hottest months of the year, outdoor laborers in Qatar were working under "significant occupational heat stress conditions.“
Story continues below advertisement
Qatar in May imposed regulations expanding the number of hours that prohibits outdoor labor from taking place to 10 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. during the hotter months of the year, while also outlawing any work if the wet-bulb temperature is more than approximately 89 degrees Fahrenheit.
Merely surviving in those conditions depends on your place in society and what that affords: access to air conditioning, insulated homes, jobs that don’t require extreme physical exertion under the sun and policies in place to protect you from dangerous conditions.
“As humans, we have learned to adapt,” Cavazos said. “The problem is the cost. Some will not survive.”



-----Original Message-----
From: terrilcornwell via Diehard Group <diehar...@googlegroups.com>
To: kilp...@gmail.com <kilp...@gmail.com>; diehar...@googlegroups.com <diehar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 28, 2021 12:52 pm
Subject: Re: Consider 3 Men

Dan,
Thank you for this:

So this matter of covid etc, to me, is not about anything other than caring for ourselves, for each other, and for our world as a whole. Covid seems to have become something that moves us away from the very thing most needed right now, compassion.
Terri


-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Kilpatrick <kilp...@gmail.com>
To: diehar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Jul 28, 2021 12:21 pm
Subject: Re: Consider 3 Men

Diehards,

I just caught up with this thread, and truthfully, I have no sense of having insight or solutions to all the chaos that is transpiring. If there is anything to say, right now, it seems simply to be returning to simple facts, to solid ground. Not our beliefs, but to simply see that we have beliefs and that these are all they are. We all share this tendency, it is neither right nor wrong. But death is a fact, full stop, and people are dying of covid. Our neighbor across the street died of covid this past Spring, and the impact of this on his wife and family was devastating, and remains so. This is not a belief, it is a fact. No amount of believing is going to change this fact.

It is a wonderful thing to not have been affected by this disease passing through humanity right now. But this does not mean, it seems to me, that I or anyone should assume we are therefore not at risk of becoming ill and even dying. It simply means that we have been very fortunate, and there is true value in appreciating this. Things could be different. We (as the human being and personality) could not be here now. We would not be here to appreciate this fact, but we would be missed and others would be suffering over it. Also, we likely would have gone through some terrible circumstances on the way to not being here anymore. 

So this matter of covid etc, to me, is not about anything other than caring for ourselves, for each other, and for our world as a whole. Covid seems to have become something that moves us away from the very thing most needed right now, compassion. Division will simply take anything that comes its way and turn it into more division. It can't help itself, because this is its movement. But to see the actual fact of this, the truth of this, is this very compassion, in which no one is separate. There is compassion for division that can't see what it is doing. No words are needed then......   -Dan

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 11:58 AM Sheri R <anne...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you, Paul. Sobering. 
Kevin, I see the post now. Had to go to the Diehards on 'the web'. It did not populate in my email. 

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:18 AM Paul Rezendes <pho...@paulrezendes.com> wrote:
Debi, Diehards,

Debi, my heart sank reading your emails. As of lately I have been very, very concerned about the mental health of people in this world. It does not look good to me. It seems pretty hopeless. Just my personal opinion. I think people have really lost it; they are going off the cliff. They just have left this planet. Alan Watts said a long time ago: "if this issue (the false self) is not addressed, people will eventually go mad and self destruct." I think that is actually what’s happening. It is not only a mental health issue, but also what we are doing to this planet. I think the planet is going to hit back and it's not going to be pretty. I'm just being frank here and upfront.

As far as the fragmentation we see in society, from what I can see, it is due to the separate one, the thinker of the thought, the false self. To think that this fragmentation is being caused by some power is just creating more fragmentation… Yikes! Where the hell is this going to end?

I have feelings, and I'm not feeling good about all this. It just doesn't look like it's going in a good direction. I know, I know... good luck, bad luck, who knows? We really don't know.

I would like to end with love and affection to everyone,

Paul  😥

On Jul 28, 2021, at 12:11 AM, 'Debi Lee' via Diehard Group <diehar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Diehards, 

I forgot to mention I don’t believe any president worldwide was ever elected, they’re all selected decades in advance and they do what they’re told, they have no real power. And, most are all related. For instance, it appears that Killary Clinton and Donald DRUMPF—his real name, are cousins. When you ‘cast’ your vote you participate in their black magic. It also appears that standing 6 feet apart and wearing masks are part of satanic rituals, another way for you to participate in their sick game they play with us. Or not. I’ve never worn a mask, nor have I ever social distanced, nor have I slathered that poison called hand sanitizer on the largest organ on my body and amazingly enough I have not even had a sniffle since this whole hoax began. looks like they renamed the flu to me. And the reason they do not advertise the Covid vaccines on TV is because by law you are supposed to also list all side effects, which Death is just one of them. I wonder how many vaccinated people were informed of that before their doctor jabbed them. Below is a link that has some information that might surprise many of you and prompt you to google the list of ingredients of the Covid vaccines. Potassium chloride is in Pfizer’s; that is one of three ingredients used in lethal injections for our inmates in the US, it stops the heart. Not one Covid vaccine is FDA approved for safety, it is approved for emergency use only and that is why they call it “testing” and “trials”, they are now using “trials” on children, healthy children!


debi

🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 27, 2021, at 11:27 PM, Debi Lee <dle...@icloud.com> wrote:

Sheri and Diehards,

Sheri, perhaps you shared this because you see where this entire world has been, and is heading very swiftly now. I’ve attached a short video clip, and will echo something Dan K. wrote in an earlier email: NIMBY—-Not in my backyard. I’ll add that it’s my belief that all puppets/presidents are all on the same team. What you witness on your TVs is a SHOW of opposition to keep us divided and distracted while THEY roll out the New World Order (that I’ve heard every puppet, I mean president mention, but not define, since Reagan). Their motto is: Divide and Conquer because they knew if we were ever united they could never roll out their New World Order. They’ve divided us religiously, politically, nationally, racially, economically, gender wise, and now they’ve divided us through this planned Covid hoax, the vaccinated against the unvaccinated. I believe it was Shakespeare that said: All the world’s a stage. He knew because he was one of them. 

<Video.MOV>
debi

🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:23 AM, terrilcornwell via Diehard Group <diehar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


Terri


Slowly I came back from the dead....I left the hospital on my own two feet. I was nothing but skin and bones, but I had recovered. The fact was I was so happy that now Buchenwald seemed to me a place which if not welcome was at least possible. If they didn't give any bread to eat, I would feed on hope. 
It was the truth. I still had eleven months ahead of me in the camp. But today I have not a single evil memory of those three hundred and thirty days of extreme wretchedness. I was carried by a hand. I was covered by a wing. I hardly needed to look out for myself, and such concern would have seemed to me ridiculous. I was free now to help the others; not always, not much, but in my own way I could help. 
.....From that time on they stopped stealing my bread or my soup. It never happened again. Often comrades would wake me in the night and take me to comfort someone....
That is how I lived, how I survived. The rest I cannot describe."

I've not always exactly known what has pulled/pushed this search with such ferocity and tenaciousness. But here it is,  laid bare. 
VF;  Please, no more analysis of human spirit/personality. No more theories about the meaning of life. No more books from the guts of hell trying to  inspire a life that has meaning. 
EW: Please, no more self flagellation of heroic proportions. No more keeping vigil over the fire of humanity until someone figures it outs. No more haunted life. 
JL: Light. God, Being. Alive. YES! 

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Sheri Rink Dip.PT, Acup., RYT
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Debi Lee

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Aug 2, 2021, 3:11:59 PM8/2/21
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Paul, Diehards,

You didn’t piss me off with your question: are we doing self inquiry or are we just need attention?  The thought occurred to me yesterday that I’m seeking attention and validation. I looked to see if that was true and felt something very uncomfortable in the pit of my stomach and a recognition that I’ve seen this before. Maybe I’m just fooling myself, but for me, I feel the answer to your question is, both. I see how the kudos can inflate ego and keep the sense of self going strong, but the same can be said when when one doesn’t. There’s a felt need for attention at times, which thankfully I’m not getting now, this is helpful, and a deep desire for both the relative truth about debi—what makes her tick and these two desires, one being a strong desire for Absolute truth and the other the desire to not let debi die. For me, you hit the nail on the head. Again, I appreciate the question. I can’t apologize for the felt wants or needs that arise in me, but I can say, thank you for your patience and your tolerance with my neediness/‘wantiness,’ and my felt need, at times, to share so my stuff comes to the  light of day quicker than if I don’t.  

Since yesterday, I vacillate from feeling horrible to neutral to chuckling at my desire for wanting harmony and not wanting to feel shamed or ostracized. What is the point of it all—feeling the gamut? Is there a point? Are there many points? Or no point at all? Can a realized person answer those questions? It seems wanting answers get in the way of receiving answers, like wanting Realization must also, at some point be dropped, or taken away, or wanting suffering to end, every thing must go, be dropped at some point, maybe that’s the openness you speak about, I don’t know. 

debi

🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 2, 2021, at 10:32 AM, Dan Kilpatrick <kilp...@gmail.com> wrote:



Terri


 
🕊Janet🕊
 
 
 
 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 1, 2021, at 8:46 AM, Sheri R < anne...@gmail.com> wrote:

No apology necessary, Deb. At  least in the opinion of this Diehard. 

In unedited language; I don't give a rat's ass about misinformation for a couple of reasons; 
1. I don't really know and can't really know what is and is not misinformation. At the end of the day I can only ever know awareness of the perception, the 'what' of perception is highly, highly subjective and therefor all information can be said to be misinformation because it's filtered through brain and spit out the other side as concept (and that might very well be an opinion)
2. I am infinitely  more interested in context, that is, understanding how someone has come to such an opinion/position/belief and what their orientation is to it and to others. In this there is, as much as is possible, movement to try to understand another. And by understanding another I mean to try to see where their identification is that is leading to division and sense of separateness. A lot of things make sense with enough context and when seen from another's perspective
3. There is not an ounce of doubt that I too could have been a serial killer, a rapist, a Q-anon supporter or rebuker, a monk, saint and common person, given one degree of change to any of the context items 'I' have absolutely no control over; ie born into an ashram setting, having a mentally ill parent, having be assaulted as a child.  
I am all of these or none of these....... and perhaps neither.  
 
With love as always. 


On Sunday, 1 August 2021 at 05:47:35 UTC-6 dlee494 wrote:
Terri,
 
From where I'm sitting, it looks and feels as though I'm the one who kicked the hornets nest. I agree with you when you say, "sometimes kicking the hornets nest is just what is needed." 
 
What I also hear you not saying is that my voice, nor me as a fellow human being is valued by you. Even though I value my opinion of myself above anyone else's in this entire world,  it still hurts to feel that; my sense is you're not alone here. Feelings of anger, hurt and fear came up within when I read your post. I sat with it long enough to not only see how it's another link in the same chain here (it brought up memories and patterns), but to feel a sense of compassion for you. I've had to do it a  number of times, it's kind of like the dancing with the cramps in my legs and feet that come during my yoga classes almost daily. Whether it was your intention or not to trigger distressing feelings within me, I actually dance in and out of feeling like I cherish your post more than Sheri's or Janet's where I felt supported and valued as a human being because It's the conflict that gets triggered in me that forces me to look within. My intention is to sit with the layers of anger, hurt, and fear your post triggered in me, (after my guest leaves) with sustained attention until I land where I always land, when I sit with sustained attention, with what's going on within me and that is the 'place' of love. 
 
Perhaps people think I owe an apology here. If I thought I harmed anyone here, I would most definitely apologize and do anything I could to 'make it right.' If anyone thinks I owe an apology here, I'm all ears. 
 
Blessings to you always, Terri.
 
debi

On July 31, 2021 at 7:15 AM, "'TERRI CORNWELL' via Diehard Group" < diehar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Kevin, 
I echo Jim’s comments. I, too, have the same feelings about misinformation. You are a valued voice….sometimes kicking the hornet’s nest is just what is needed…
Blessings,
Terri


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 31, 2021, at 1:52 AM, Sheri R < anne...@gmail.com> wrote:

Stay, look, inquire until you see yourself in, and as, the other. 
Here is peace, love, acceptance, compassion. 
To bow out, or to stop at blame or shame or fear, is to perpetuate a sense of separateness.  
 
Peace and metta to you all! s
On Friday, 30 July 2021 at 20:35:43 UTC-6 michael.luce9 wrote:
Very much appreciate your response here, Kevin. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2021, at 10:00 PM, Kevin Shuey < kas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Diehards
 
I have kept silent until now, admittedly, to see how things played out. I thought it only fair, however,  that I check in at some point, since I’m the one who kicked the hornet’s nest. Sorry if this is a come-down after the lofty words that preceded it.  First of all, I apologize if my blunt response to Debi’s posts was offensive to anyone. No doubt I could have taken a gentler approach. Debi’ is right, I came to this with a history. Debi and I have been at this same juncture before, when we had a small self-inquiry group here in Goldsboro. She started introducing some similar, and Q-Anon related material. I appreciate the wise, openhearted, non-judgemental, compassionate comments that have flowed. I wouldn’t have expected anything less from this group.
 
The bottom line, for me, is  1)  As has been said, this is not the place for those conversations. And 2) I cannot support, encourage, or condone the kind of dangerous misinformation that can, and has, cost lives. If taking such a position makes me less “spiritual” or is not in keeping with the mores of this group, then perhaps I should bow out.
 
Much Love to All,
Kevin
 
 
 
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 2:54 PM
To: sonofs...@comcast.net; diehar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Consider 3 Men
Thank you, Jim. You have written an excellent example of self-inquiry -- a good model for all of us. Some of us, I'm sure, are using your words to reflect privately without responding to the Diehards, and that's OK, too!

-----Original Message-----
From: JIM PETERSON <sonofs...@comcast.net>
To: diehar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jul 30, 2021 2:27 pm
Subject: Re: Consider 3 Men
Dear Debi, Janet, and Diehards,
 
So for me, every thread that comes up here is to be applied functionally to self-inquiry.  So in that spirit, I would like to continue for just a little longer on this particular thread, because it is yielding insights within Awareness.  To do this, I'd like to reply to Debi's last two emails that were partially or wholly addressed to me.  And Debi, I thank you for following your own sense of the truth in what you have said.  Seems like that's really all any of us can do.
 
I want to start with "shame" because in one response you appeared to be shaking off any feelings of shame.  And I'm glad to see that.  At the same time, I'm concerned that what I said in my post was perceived by you as trying to produce shame.  So my point of self-inquiry is to question whether I was unconsciously trying to shame you.  And if so, what do I gain in doing that?  This is, I suspect, a potent question for many people to go into.  And so I hope this turns out to be a productive vein to follow.  I grew up in a household in which shaming was a form of discipline—a way to control the behavior of the children, namely me.  I would say there were three categories of shaming: mockery, ostracization, and the belt.  To put these into different terms, they would make fun of me, isolate me in my room (the cold shoulder), or my father would whip me with his belt.  When you combine these methods, the result is that shame becomes imprinted on the child.  For this reason, I have been a carrier of shame for much of my adult life, without fully understanding where it was coming from.  All I knew was that I was in severe pain emotionally over my concern that I had said or done something wrong or hurtful to someone else.  (Don't worry, I'm bringing this back around to my previous Diehard posts in a moment.). In my twenties I stumbled on Krishnamurti, and I really took what he was saying to heart and mind.  And his form of self-observation helped me to see through and mute to some degree the shame that seemed to be an organic part of my existence.  It was in my bones, muscles, and organs—so total was its power over me.  Serious depression cycled through my life like bad weather.  And even self-observation couldn't dismiss it totally.  But my continuing work with self-awareness and self-inquiry and meditation and so on began to throw open one of those inward doors after another.  A long series of insights.  Until today I would say that shame has mostly disappeared in me.  It is a meek ghost in the machinery of I-thought known as Jim.  I don't believe it will ever be totally eradicated in me, but I just don't suffer with it anymore.  When it arises it's just seen for what it is without reaction.
 
But that's not quite the end of it.  Shame takes at least two forms in the adult shame-carrier.  She or he is both a sufferer of shame and a dispenser of shame.  Though I no longer suffer with shame, I wonder if I am an unconscious dispenser of shame.  And so I have arrived back at my original question.  As I look back at my post and my "experiment," I can see an easy path to defending myself.  But my inquiry has nothing to do with self defense.  It seems that a deeper seeing is possible here.  My experiment resembles a form of mockery, though it was completely unconscious in me at the time.  I attempt to hide my motives by pretending to be calling attention to my own righteous opinions and name-calling and all of that, to show how divisive it can be.  But of course this was a disguised way of pointing out your behavior, even though I didn't directly mock you.  Is this being seen clearly?  Shame as a painful form of depression has faded out of my life, but does it still arise in subtle forms of shaming others?  The shamed will inevitably become a shamer of others.  And Debi, did you sense that, and is that why you felt you needed to talk about resisting shame?  I feel that something is being unearthed here, and Awareness is just seeing it more and more clearly.  Maybe I'm wrong.
 
So I am very sensitive to name-calling.  I wasn't thinking about your use of the word "psychopath" when I spoke of name-calling.  But I think it's a good example. So I want to be very alert as I'm writing this.  I'm not accusing you or myself of anything.  I'm asking both of us to see what is happening as best we can.  When I personally use the word "psychopath," if I'm alert to what I'm doing, I have no doubt that it's an insult designed to shame the other person, or to suggest that the other person "should" feel shame. Isn't it interesting that the ultimate way of shaming someone is to tell them that they have no shame?  In other words, what do "I" gain by calling someone a psychopath?  I have to become aware of that right in the moment.  Is that a way of confirming my own "I," defending it against its own sense of shame?  Honestly, I'm just looking.  It may be that the answer is different for each of us.  In my case, I have given up name-calling because I have seen so clearly how self was feeding on it.  The ego, the self, is so subtle in its machinations.  Just as an example, is this I-thought known as Jim feeding pridefully on what I'm saying here right now?  Is it thinking, "How thoughtful and insightful I am"?  There is just this seeing of it.  More and more now I live from this place of just seeing what is happening without judging it, without feeling any shame over it.  At a certain point, shame was replaced with fascination.  Seeing the machinery of the conditioned self is so interesting to me.  Seeing it without judgment is liberation to me.  All of my beliefs and thoughts are constantly within the purview of effortless Awareness.  Whew!  So much burden has been lifted.  
 
So Debi, I want you to know that I did not consciously or deliberately try to shame you with my comments.  But it's possible that it was happening unconsciously because this body/mind is still under the influence of subtle layers of shame conditioning.  The process of seeing more and more of it is unfolding in me, as I think it is in you.  And that's what we're here for, isn't it?  I want to add one more thing: I don't want to leave the impression that I grew up in some sort of terrible home.  We were solidly middle class and I had everything I needed.  I was loved and well taken care of.  But the discipline regimen I describe was commonplace in the 50's.  The adage "Spare the rod, spoil the child" was on the lips of parents everywhere.  My father's father was very strict and severe with him, and he passed some of that on to me, including the shaming.  Part of my self-inquiry is to see my parents objectively and therefore compassionately.  They were basically good people doing what they thought was right.  I'm grateful for so many opportunities they made possible for me.  Neither they nor I had any significant understanding of the negative consequences of certain kinds of conditioning in the body and mind of a child.  I sometimes regret that I didn't have children.  They might have been great comfort to me in my old age.  But I fear that I might have passed on unconscious techniques of shaming to my children.  And I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  
 
Debi and Diehards, forgive this terribly long post.  I suspect it touches on some of what I may have said in my earlier posts from a year or so ago.  If I have any goal, it's just to keep seeing with as much clarity as possible.  I truly don't know any other way to go.  And that old phantom "I" isn't going anywhere.  
 
With continuing love and gratitude,
 
Jim
On 07/30/2021 10:07 AM 'Debi Lee' via Diehard Group <diehar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 
 
Thanks Janet, for pointing that out. Absolutely, label the behavior, not the person. I’m usually in that mindset until my internal trigger reaches a certain degree of emotional charge. 
 
And, I agree we all have limited seeing, but I do think that the rough edges can reach a point that could be considered abusive, in which case, we can have compassion for the person from afar, especially if the person isn’t willing to work on changing the behavior. 
debi
🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟
 
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 30, 2021, at 8:38 AM, Janet Asiain <janet...@gmail.com> wrote:
Diehards, Debi
 
Really briefly, two points:
 
It might be more illuminating to label people's behavior as psychopathic or kind or whatever, rather than labeling the person? Without judgement, of course! (As if ---)
 
And I appreciate your mention of "rough edges and limited seeing" -- those words describe us all, I think, to one degree or another.
 
Janet
 
On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 7:44 AM 'Debi Lee' via Diehard Group < diehar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Jim, Diehards,
 
I’m really not trying to be a wise ass here but you mentioned something about name-calling in your last post, I assume you’re referring to the word, psychopath that I used. If I call someone a kind person, is that not another name or label? There is such a thing as a psychopath in this relative world. We have to, and I think always just will make distinctions in this world. If I were to call someone an asshole that’s subjective, that’s name calling to me, but can we say that a psychopath has certain qualities? A kind person has certain qualities? I also understand that what one person may consider kind can be vastly different than what another might consider kind, so perhaps from a certain perspective it’s all subjective. Awareness doesn’t judge anything as good, bad, or ugly, judging is just happening, and it seems to be ok in/under certain circumstances and not in others. Can or is this ok just as it is? 
 
 I could call someone a psychopath and feel full of compassion for that person, and/or I can also feel disdain for the same person I label as a psychopath, so does that change anything? I’m just typing what’s coming up here, doesn’t seem to flow nicely, but I’m going to leave it just as it is, perhaps someone(s) will comment and help me see something from a different perspective or make better sense of what is trying to be communicated. I think this post is keeping in line with the purpose of the group, if it’s not, I hope someone will make it crystal clear and let me know, that goes for anything I may post in the future. I value honesty, even more so, when it stings me, I get more out of it than some positive acknowledgement or praise. 
 
Thank you all for your patience, acceptance and your willingness to deal with my rough edges and my limited seeing. 
debi
 
🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟
 
Sent from my iPhone

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Paul Rezendes

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Aug 2, 2021, 3:35:16 PM8/2/21
to Diehards google
Debi, Diehards,

Debi, that's what I call self inquiry. At least that's what I call it. Your email was a really right-on demonstration of self-examination.

"Since yesterday, I vacillate from feeling horrible to neutral to chuckling at my desire for wanting harmony and not wanting to feel shamed or ostracized. What is the point of it all—feeling the gamut? Is there a point?"

I think we all do this. And I think the point is: it makes us feel alive, pertinent, noticed. It doesn't matter whether it's negative or positive attention. We get noticed, we get energy. That's all that matters. On the other hand, if there is a seeing that, it doesn't have to continue.

Love , Paul


Janet Asiain

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Aug 2, 2021, 6:27:01 PM8/2/21
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Diehards

I was just on a long evening 
walk and this revelation came 
out of the blue (I wrote blur 
first but it autocorrected --
hmm). Anyway it came to me
that there is right/wrong, 
good/bad, and all the other
pair of opposites that imply
judgement. But seen from a 
wider perspective, they're 
just nothing to be upset about. 
Have I missed the boat again?
Would this be a way of saying 
that everything just as it is
is perfect? 

🕊🕊🕊Janet


Sent from my iPhone

Rob LO

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Aug 2, 2021, 6:40:14 PM8/2/21
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Hafiz has been waiting for the appropriate association about judgement 


Why Aren’t We All Screaming Drunks?

The sun once glimpsed God’s true nature
And has never been the same.

Thus that radiant sphere
Constantly pours its energy
Upon this earth
As does He from behind
The veil.

With a wonderful God like that
Why isn’t everyone a screaming drunk?

Hafiz’s guess is this:

Any thought that you are better or less
Than another man

Quickly
Breaks the wine
Glass.

– Hafiz, from The Gift translated by Daniel Ladinsky.


On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 11:27 PM Janet Asiain <janet...@gmail.com> wrote:
Diehards

Debi Lee

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Aug 3, 2021, 6:58:09 AM8/3/21
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Beautiful. Thank you, Rob. 

When I’m not busy scrambling to find ways to make myself feel better by tearing others down, being afraid of them, or convincing myself I’m right, it gives me more time to contemplate other things. 

Some plan and make preparations for the death of their physical bodies. I’m interested in hearing, if it’s possible, or how one  might be able to prepare for the death of the identification with their egos. And, when one is able to see that there’s, at least a part of them, that really doesn’t want that, is there a way to help that part relax enough so it can at least consider changing its’ minds.’

I’d love to hear people’s thoughts here. 


debi

🕉The most fundamental harm we can do to ourselves is to remain ignorant by not having the courage and the respect to look at ourselves honestly and gently. 💟

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 2, 2021, at 6:40 PM, Rob LO <bein...@gmail.com> wrote:


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Paul Rezendes

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Aug 3, 2021, 8:38:15 AM8/3/21
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Janet, Diehards,

You hit on something that got my attention in your email below. I have always been interested in this. A lot of so-called enlightened people go around saying, everything's perfect, absolutely nothing has to be changed, it's all perfect the way it is. I feel like I understand why they say that, but I also think it's very misleading.

The way I understand this, and I might be off in left field somewhere, is that from the wider perspective, as you called it, nothing needs to be changed. So, to me, the the wider perspective is this Openness. There is no authoritarian principle at work when Openness is observing things. Openness just sees things as they are. The interesting thing for me is that this Openness/Awareness, as it sees things, because it sees things and makes things clear, it can change everything without intention. This is what the Taoist call Wei Wu Wei. If I'm lying to myself and I'm not aware of it, that's one thing. But if I'm lying to myself and that comes up into this Open Awareness, then I'm automatically no longer lying to myself. So the lying to myself is perfectly OK the way it is, as it is, but it is also completely changed, and no longer is what it was. I hope that didn't sound too crazy. Probably only made sense to me, laugh out loud!

So, if one is residing in this Openness, and you have the opportunity to stop someone from killing a bunch of kids, you will act to stop that person. So it seems to me that right and wrong still exist in this Openness. The right thing to do is stop at the red light. Then I come to the conclusion that it's wrong for me to be angry. So I get angry about the anger. Where things might work on the physical plane, they don't work on the psychological plane. But if the anger comes up in Openness,  Openness has no problem with it, then there is peace with the anger. Nothing needs to be changed, things are changed without doing.


❤️

Paul


Dan Kilpatrick

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Aug 3, 2021, 8:47:19 AM8/3/21
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Thanks Janet, I couldn't agree more. Distinguishing and judgment to live in the world, it's just palin common sense. But they do not have to define, and do not define, the totality of life. Clarity allows us to see their appropriateness, when we are not attached or fixated on them.  Thanks Janet, -Dan

JIM PETERSON

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Aug 4, 2021, 6:50:50 PM8/4/21
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Dear  Diehards and Thursday Night Zoomers,
 
I’m happy to be taking over the hosting duties of our Thursday night “Conversation With Each Other” on Zoom.  I’m gathering a small group of members to help me, so that I won’t necessarily be the one who facilitates the meeting every Thursday.  I don’t suspect that the nature of our discussions will be much if any different from what we have been experiencing already. And I want to make sure all you Diehards know that you are invited.
 
Before we begin, I’d like to remind everyone of what we are attempting to do in this gathering.  We call this group a “conversation” because that’s what we want it to be.  The purpose of the group isn’t to be a forum for individuals to offer lengthy lectures on what they know.  It really is a conversation with give and take—a conversation based on the underlying principles of self-inquiry.  Is it possible for us to discover together in the moment of inquiry that which can’t be named, spoken, or described?  We are together, not separate, in this endeavor.
 
For these reasons be mindful of how much time you are taking up.  Attempt to stay on the current topic or question until it has been fully explored.  Seek ways to bring others into the conversation.  If we operate in this manner—and we very often do already—the potential for moments of discovery and insight seem great to me.
 
For this coming Thursday night, Bob Harwood has offered some words for us to consider inspired by a question that arose in one of our recent meetings. Bob’s comments are below, following the Zoom invitation and link.
 
I’m very grateful for everyone participating in this group, and for all that has been brought to light in the last year and a half.  Let’s keep it going.
 
Jim
 
Jim Peterson is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting. 
 
Topic: Thursday Night Zoom Meeting JP 
Time: Aug 5, 2021 07:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) 
 
 
Meeting ID: 860 5438 2574 
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Meeting ID: 860 5438 2574 
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Words from Bob Harwood
 
Last Thursday night Ted asked, "How would you answer the question, 'who are you?'" I replied, " I am that which just asked the question." I could also have remained silent and simply waved, or I could have explained a bit more by saying, "I'm both a human being with the name of 'Bob' and I'm THIS--the entire field of being that we call "reality. I'm both the observer and the observed, the ocean, the wave, and the see-er/imaginer of both." Perhaps the simplest verbal answer to the question is, "I am 'what is." 

In Paul's book, "The Wild Within," (page 212) he wrote, "I had woken up and realized that I was the universe, every rock, tree, cloud, animal, and person on the planet. I was the moon and stars, intelligence, awareness, compassion, love, direct communication, the dance of life and death, and the web of life." What Paul described is the fundamental realization that may occur if someone is extremely curious about the true nature of reality. 

When the sense of a personal "me" vanished for the "Bob" character in 1999, the sense of any boundary between an "inside mental world" and an "outside physical world" also vanished, and from that point onwards there was a continual sense of oneness with whatever was happening. Many of us call that sense of psychological unity "The Natural State" because it's the same state that little children naturally inhabit prior to becoming culturally conditioned to imagine that they're separate from the field of being we call "reality." 

The title of Nisargadatta's book is "I am THAT." I prefer to say, "I am THIS," because the word "THIS" feels a bit more intimate. Nevertheless, that word is just a pointer synonymous with "The Infinite," "Source," or "The Ground of Being." THIS is infinite and incomprehensibly intelligent. When the vastness of THIS is seen, it is THIS which sees that vastness because there's nothing separate from THIS that is capable of seeing anything. THIS, via a human being, also has the capability of apprehending Itself directly. Zen people call that kind of apprehension "seeing into one's true nature," and that kind of seeing is beyond the mind. It is ineffable, and anyone who sees the vast and incomprehensible nature of THIS will be instantly awed and humbled. 

When the "Bob" character looks around, he sees the same thing that everyone else sees but without mental commentary. Everything is seen and understood directly because all distinctions learned in the past have been internalized, and they no longer need to be thought about. Everyone else also sees like this, but because mind talk is such a strong habit, and the mental jabbering is so continuous, the simple awareness underlying thought goes unnoticed. No one has to think any words in order to go to the bathroom, scratch an itch, tie shoelaces, or know if the body is hungry or thirsty. Life continues whether there is thinking or an absence of thinking, but because the "Bob" character did ATA-T for many years, it can stop thinking at any time and remain silently aware. Silent awareness makes it obvious that verbal thought is not necessary for driving a car, shopping for groceries, or doing almost any other ordinary everyday activity. 

People who spend time looking and listening rather than thinking, reflecting, cognizing, calculating, judging, imagining, distinguishing, delineating, comparing, evaluating, positing, desiring, hoping, expecting, speculating, etc, are more likely to penetrate the illusion of separateness, and this is why Psalms 46-10 states, "Be still and know." These words point beyond the mind. 

On the forum we often talk as if there is only one important realization, but the "Bob" character had numerous significant realizations over a period of 15 years. Each realization caused some erroneous idea to fall away until he was left with only one question. He wondered how it was possible for a unity-conscious state of mind to become permanent rather than intermittent. In 1999, while hiking in the mountains, "the little guy in the head" suddenly vanished without a trace, and it became obvious that who he had thought he was had never existed. It was seen that the body/mind organism is actual, but the idea of a "me" inhabiting a body/mind organism is totally a product of imagination. It was also seen that there had never been two separate states--a state of unity consciousness and a state of split-mind consciousness. 

Many people on the forum have had what they call "experiences of oneness," but oneness is always the case. The illusion that oneness comes and goes is simply another consequence of the "me" illusion. Right this moment, no matter what may appear to be happening, there is only THIS, undivided, without boundary, infinite, undying and unborn. What we are simply IS. 

Finally, it is impossible to identify with THIS or as THIS because identification requires two states--an identifier and that which is identified with, so if identification of any kind is still occurring and being believed, that's reliable evidence that the illusion of "me" is still alive and well. 

Chitra Divakaruni

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Aug 5, 2021, 2:01:55 AM8/5/21
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Thank you for this, Jim, and for taking up the hosting. 
I read some of your poems, especially those published in Poetry,  and really enjoyed them. 
warmly, 
Chitra

From: diehar...@googlegroups.com <diehar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of JIM PETERSON <sonofs...@comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 5:50 PM
To: diehar...@googlegroups.com <diehar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Invitation to Thursday night Zoom self-inquiry group
 
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Dan Kilpatrick

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Aug 5, 2021, 4:08:40 PM8/5/21
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Thanks Jim for sharing the invitation. I wanted to express a real appreciation for Bob's writing here. It also raised a question in going through it, that I felt to share here, as a sort of inquiry.

We often hear people speak of the illusion of self, as Bob shared here. I am wondering how we tend to receive this expression. At times, there may be an idea of what it means, especially if we have heard it several times before. But I am wondering about the actuality of this sense of being an illusion, what this actually refers to. What does this mean?

Many of us may have come to see certain habits of our thinking and feelings, like being attached to certain behavior patterns etc. As the patterns/feelings arise, they have a sense of necessity, of being an immediate reality. But having seen through them, they no longer have their hold on us. They are seen through as they arise (generally speaking), and they tend to fade eventually.

So here's a question: is what underlies all of this habitual/patterned movement, fundamentally of the same nature as selfing? In other words, in coming to see  the habitual nature of selfing itself (with nothing separate that is seeing it!), in the revealing of this habitual experience of being a self, is this revealing its illusory (habitual) nature? In seeing the various ways in which we remain attached to what this movement is saying and implying ("I" am real), which shrouds or conceals the movement itself, is this how it loses its hold?  

I mean this not as an intellectual activity or process, as a mechanical means to an end etc, but as the intimacy and immediacy of what is arising in us all the time. We don't have to go looking for it, it's right here, happening now; just look. Maybe this happens when we are truly and wholly with ourselves, intimate not separate, in any given moment. What is going on in us is all there is, just as it is. In this, nothing about this movement needs to change. The question of change doesn't even arise in this. The asking or desire for this movement to change IS this movement!

This is life's beautiful paradox, it seems to me: change that is unasked for. The beauty lies in the fact that not wanting itself to change can never be reached by this movement, because wanting itself to change is its nature. It can never be other than what it is. So the change that this movement seeks is an illusion, and it can't know what it means for it to no longer move in this way. But here's the thing, perhaps most of all: this movement doesn't need to know, and it doesn't need to be anything. There is 'something else' already present, that this movement was never separate from in the first place..... -Dan



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