Holton-Montero opening Saturday

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David Panian

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Jun 6, 2025, 11:56:49 PM6/6/25
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According to Jason Beck at mlb.com/tigers.com, Tyler Holton will start Saturday's game, then Keider Montero will follow.

https://bsky.app/profile/jasonbeck.bsky.social/post/3lqycq6tm4s2e

I'm not a fan of this tactic, at least not with Montero. His whole career he's been a starter and used to a starter's routine. Now he's being asked to do something different, and it shows. In six games as a starter, he has a 2.87 ERA in 31.1 innings and a 1.372 WHIP. The WHIP isn't good, but it's better than as a reliever: two games, 8.00 ERA in nine innings with a 1.778 WHIP. Those are his 2025 stats, but his career stats are about the same, with a higher ERA as a starter at 3.90, but that's still OK for a fourth or fifth starter.

Is Hinch trying to neutralize Kyle Tucker for an at bat, because that might backfire. Tucker is hitting lefties better than righties this year. Ian Happ is a pinch hitter who hits lefties way better than righties, and Seiya Suzuki is a righty. Holton probably will face Pete Crow-Armstrong, and Holton should have the advantage there. But with PCA's speed, he just has to hit a slow grounder and he has a shot at an infield hit.

I would rather just let Montero start.

David

Jeffrey Withey

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Jun 7, 2025, 12:07:23 AM6/7/25
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I agree. And Holton really hasn’t been that good so far this year. Just give Montero the start. 

Jeff

From: detroit...@googlegroups.com <detroit...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of David Panian <dpa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2025 11:56:34 PM
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Subject: Holton-Montero opening Saturday
 

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Paul Meloche

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Jun 7, 2025, 2:40:05 PM6/7/25
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Holton gave up a run (homer to Suzuki) in 1 1/3. Montero has been in since and been ok but Chicago leads 5-1 in the 7th. 

The last couple of weeks have been like last season where the pitching keeps us in games but the offense just hasn’t been very good. 


Paul M.

On Jun 6, 2025, at 9:07 PM, 'Jeffrey Withey' via Detroit Tigers e-mail list <detroit...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Peter Welch

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Jun 7, 2025, 10:28:07 PM6/7/25
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Riley Greene wears the "Golden Sombrero" today with 4 Ks.  Three of his Ks were only on 3 pitches.  The Tigers as a team only struck out 7 times today, but Greene got the majority of them.  When Riley is off he can look really bad like today (yes, his big uppercut golf swing is vulnerable to striking out).

Greene has struck out almost 31% of the time this year (MLB average is 22%) and walked 7% of the time (MLB average is 8%).  He's on pace to strike out over 200 times this season.  

Greene has elite hand-eye coordination and batspeed because he still has over .800 OPS and about a league average OBA (.335) with that crazy uppercut swing so overall he's still a productive hitter, but I still think he needs to refine his swing and approach a bit.  I'm not sure he'll get away with his big uppercut as he gets older.

Last year Greene's walk rate was 11%, which was above average.  His walk rate has regressed this year.  You can tolerate the strikeouts if a player still draws a lot of walks.  Greene's walk rate needs to improve and he needs to do better laying off certain pitches so he's not so feast or famine.  

Greene is arguably still our best hitter (you can make a case for Carpenter as well), but he's got some vulnerabilities that can be frustrating to watch.

Peter

From: detroit...@googlegroups.com <detroit...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Paul Meloche <meloc...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 7, 2025 2:39 PM
To: Jeffrey Withey <jwi...@med.wayne.edu>
Cc: David Panian <dpa...@gmail.com>; Tigers List <detroit...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Holton-Montero opening Saturday
 

Peter Welch

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Jun 7, 2025, 10:30:53 PM6/7/25
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The bullpen game thing (aka "Pitching Chaos") isn't as effective this year.  Holton was the key to it last year.  Not so much this year.

Montero is frustrating to watch.  He can look elite for a couple of hitters and then his command goes out the window and he starts hanging meatballs.
He's going to be a tough nut to crack for Fetter & Co.

Peter
From: 'Jeffrey Withey' via Detroit Tigers e-mail list <detroit...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 7, 2025 12:06 AM
To: David Panian <dpa...@gmail.com>; Tigers List <detroit...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Holton-Montero opening Saturday

Roger King

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Jun 8, 2025, 11:38:35 AM6/8/25
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The Tigers actually have a number of streaky hitters. Tork is obviously another one. Javy Baez.  Colt Keith with his incredibly slow starts so far early on in his career.  McKinstry has been streaky. 

The offense has been slumping but they also have been facing good pitching for the most part. The Cubs are the best team in the NL and in the top 10 in MLB ERA.  KC is 5th in ERA.  San Fran is #2.  The Tigers still managed to sweep them but only scored 10 runs in 3 games.  

The Tigers are still tied for 4th in MLB in runs scored. 

David Panian

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Jun 8, 2025, 12:10:11 PM6/8/25
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For as much as I think most of us would like to see Greene tweak his swing so it's less of a golf swing, overall, he's been really good. Since he hit his low in OPS of .624 on April 22, he's hit .305/.359/.565 with 10 doubles and 10 homers. That's a .924 OPS and over 162 games would yield 40 doubles and 40 homers. Before the oh-fers in the first two Cubs games, those numbers were a bit higher. In a league without Aaron Judge, those would be MVP numbers over a full season.

Still, it seems like he could be even better. I don't know if he thinks he has to hit the ball really high to be productive or if he's anxious about hitting line drives that get caught, but it seems like he's strong enough to pound more long line drives into the stands instead of trying for moonshots. He's also shown better plate discipline in the past. We're probably talking a couple of subtle tweaks — a degree or two less of an uppercut and a skosh more patience.

David


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Peter Welch

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Jun 8, 2025, 12:35:55 PM6/8/25
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What's interesting is that when Greene first came up he had trouble getting the ball in the air.  He'd hit a lot of infield choppers.  His GB% was a very high 56.8% and flyball % was 19.3% as a rookie.  Now his GB% is 44%, which is still slightly higher than MLB average (42.2%) and flyball% is at 26.1%, which is exactly MLB average.

I'm not sure if Greene exaggerated his uppercut approach in order to stop hitting groundballs but clearly he hits a lot more balls in the air now.
And, yes, it mostly works for him even at the expense of the strikeouts.  It's just frustrating to see him have games like yesterday.  But we shouldn't have to depend on Greene (and Carpenter) to hit well in every game, although I would like to see more walks from Carpenter and Greene (and Dingler) so when they're not getting hits they're still getting on base.

It's time for the other guys in the lineup to start stepping up, especially Tork.

Greene is a talented hitter and I trust him to make adjustments.  We forget, but he's still only 24!

Peter


From: detroit...@googlegroups.com <detroit...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of David Panian <dpa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2025 12:09 PM
To: Tigers List <detroit...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Riley Greene
 

Peter Welch

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Jun 8, 2025, 12:41:42 PM6/8/25
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The Tigers have faced some good starting pitchers lately, but not hitting well against the White Sox bullpen was kind of embarrassing.  

The Tigers are in an offensive slump (except for a couple of guys), but part of it is just regression to the mean from some hitters.  We still have some offensive holes in our lineup that I think we'll need to fill if we want to go all the way in post-season.


Peter
From: Roger King <pnag...@pnagency.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2025 11:38 AM
To: Peter Welch <pw...@hotmail.com>
Cc: Tigers List <detroit...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Riley Greene
 

Michael W

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Jun 8, 2025, 1:02:39 PM6/8/25
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> Since he hit his low in OPS of .624 on April 22, he's hit .305/.359/.565 with 10 doubles and 10 homers. 
> That's a .924 OPS and over 162 games would yield 40 doubles and 40 homers. 

Wow! 80 XHB is impressive!

This is a new twist on the scoreboard operators' gimmick.  Not only draw the line to intentionally exclude Greene's worst part of the season, but then project his best part over the full season.

(Not to mention that Greene has never played close to162 games). 

Michael

Roger King

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Jun 8, 2025, 3:06:21 PM6/8/25
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Nice double RV Peter.  Tigers lead 4-0 in the 5th wth the runs coming on a Tork 2-run double off the wall and a Greene 2-run single. 

Peter Welch

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Jun 8, 2025, 3:18:04 PM6/8/25
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It’s called a “ Porcello”.  Rick Porcello would have a good ERA if you removed his blow-up starts.

Peter


On Jun 8, 2025, at 1:02 PM, Michael W <miw...@gmail.com> wrote:



Peter Welch

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Jun 8, 2025, 3:18:36 PM6/8/25
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👍


On Jun 8, 2025, at 3:06 PM, Roger King <pnag...@pnagency.com> wrote:



Peter Welch

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Jun 8, 2025, 4:20:35 PM6/8/25
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Tigers win 4-0.  Flaherty seems to have overcome his early season issues with his fastball command and is dealing again, throwing 6 shutout innings, allowing just 2 hits (a single and a double) with 9 Ks and 3 walks.  The Skubal-Flaherty 1-2 punch is back.

Tigers left too many guys on base again, but fortunately Greene and Tork came up with clutch hits.  Carpenter with 3 hits, including 2 doubles, as well.  If the "Big 3" are hitting we should be ok more often than not.

Kahnle and Vest are proving to be a pretty reliable 1-2 punch in late-inning relief.  I still think we need some bullpen help but they're doing ok.

Tigers win the series 2-1 against a very good Cubs team.  With all the recent complaints about the Tigers the team still mostly wins.

Peter
From: Roger King <pnag...@pnagency.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2025 3:06 PM
To: Peter Welch <pw...@hotmail.com>
Cc: Tigers List <detroit...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Riley Greene
 

Tapu Shaikh

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Jun 8, 2025, 6:30:15 PM6/8/25
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The MLB highlights are voiced by the Cubs announcers.  Are they always
that awful?  Does Chicago have a quota of insufferable announcers that
was left unfilled when Ken Harrelson retired?


Roger King

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Jun 8, 2025, 6:34:34 PM6/8/25
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Which one do you mean? This highlight package has all the Tiger announcers for the most part. 


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Tapu Shaikh

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Jun 8, 2025, 6:37:06 PM6/8/25
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Ah you're right.  I searched on YouTube, and I got Marquee's coverage [1] first. 

-Tapu

[1] https://youtu.be/O2Z0M3ppXIs

Paul Meloche

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Jun 8, 2025, 9:16:04 PM6/8/25
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Besides another bat in the lineup I really want to see a reliever with strikeout stuff added to the pen. Kahnle and Vest have been great but there’s really nobody else I trust after the starter goes out. Since no starter besides Skubal can get to seven innings, that means we’re playing roulette with Hanifee, Brieske, Holton, etc. 

Hurter has been pretty good too, but I still think we need another bullpen arm. 

Paul M.

On Jun 8, 2025, at 1:20 PM, Peter Welch <pw...@hotmail.com> wrote:



Jason Rice

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Jun 8, 2025, 9:27:04 PM6/8/25
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Didn't help that Boog Shambi is doing ESPN's Sunday night game instead of the Cubs game today.

Peter Welch

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Jun 8, 2025, 9:36:11 PM6/8/25
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There will probably be some hard-throwing reliever types from teams not in contention available toward the trade deadline.

I like the A's Mason Miller.  Yes, he has a 4.84 ERA but he's been pitching at home in a high-scoring environment in Sacramento.
Miller has tremendous stuff and is averaging 16 K/9 and strikes out 43% of hitters.  I'm sure Fetter can't help him smooth out any issues.

Some other possibilities:
Felix Bautista (Bal)
Yannier Cano (Bal)
Aaron Bummer (Atl)
David Bednar (Pit)
Jake Bird (Col)
Seth Halvorsen (Col)
Ronny Henriquez (Mia)

Peter
From: Paul Meloche <meloc...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2025 9:15 PM

Peter Welch

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Jun 8, 2025, 9:43:03 PM6/8/25
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I'm sure Fetter can help Miller smooth out any issues.

Miller might cost us a decent prospect but he's only 26 and would be our closer for the next few years.  He's under team control until 2030.

Peter
From: detroit...@googlegroups.com <detroit...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Peter Welch <pw...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2025 9:36 PM

Peter Welch

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Jun 8, 2025, 9:48:01 PM6/8/25
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The Hawk was truly awful.  At least Harry Caray was entertaining when he was the Cubs (and for a time the White Sox) announcer.

Peter
From: detroit...@googlegroups.com <detroit...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tapu Shaikh <taput...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2025 6:30 PM
To: detroit...@googlegroups.com <detroit...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Riley Greene
 
The MLB highlights are voiced by the Cubs announcers.  Are they always
that awful?  Does Chicago have a quota of insufferable announcers that
was left unfilled when Ken Harrelson retired?


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