Juki versus Samsung Nozzles

[Lance Endres]

I'm curious as to why the Juki nozzles seem much more popular than the Samsung.  Usually, the popularity is related to some combination of cost, availability, and/or functionality.  There doesn't seem to be enough cost difference to explain it.  The Juki nozzles seem to more prevalent but it is not difficult to get the Samsung nozzles.  They both seem to function well, but it seems the Samsung nozzles don't suffer from minor air leakage.  It does seem like there are more adaptors available to connect the Juki nozzles to the motors.  But I don't know the history enough to know if this a result of more people using Juki nozzles or the cause.

Is there some advantages the Juki nozzles offer over the Samsung?  Is there a historical reason (such as Juki nozzles were available first)?  Or some other reason I'm missing?  What drove you to choose one over the other?

Lance

[ma...@makr.zone]

Good question, I'm also interested! I'm using CP40 myself and no problems so far.

One thing to consider is the green screen effect possible with the Jukis. In OpenPnP it is not usually* used. The green is masked and then set to black, which is no advantage against a nozzle tip that is black to begin with. How does the CHMT software handle it? Having said that. There hasn't been a real example part where this was necessary.

_Mark

*) P.S.  you can use true "green screen" with Jukis ever since I made this:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/pull/922

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[Lance Endres]

>> One thing to consider is the green screen effect possible with the Jukis. 

Point to Juki on that.

One other thing, it seems that automatic nozzle changing seems more straightforward for Samsung.  I realize there are solutions for the Juki nozzle.  And the cam style heads have issues regardless of nozzle type, but in general, that you can simply pull down on the Samsung nozzles seems advantageous.

I'm not trying to advocate for one or the other.  Everyone is going to have their preferences.  I am really just curious as to why the Juki nozzles seem so much more prevalent.  On paper, it doesn't seem obvious so I suspect a historical reason.

[Jason von Nieda]

At the risk of sounding full of myself... I am probably the historical reason :)

When I started OpenPnP the only nozzles I could find were Fuji CP6, which I had to modify since there were no nozzle adapters available. I used a 5mm to 6mm shaft coupler and removed the locking pin from the nozzles.

Eventually Juki and Samsung nozzles started to pop up on eBay and Aliexpress, but no nozzle adapters. I can't quite remember the order of events here, but I think that someone had a nozzle adapter custom made for Juki, except it was far too long. I went to the same manufacturer and had some shorter ones made, and if I remember correctly we did a group buy of those.

Eventually, Peter Betz took on having very, very nice Juki adapters made and with those generally available the Juki nozzles took off. Around that time Robotdigg started to carry Juki nozzles and adapters and that created more interest.

Personally, I think the Samsung CP40 nozzles are quite nice, but the nozzle adapters that are available are all designed to thread onto a motor, instead of being press fit, so they are quite sloppy. Additionally, they are too long. I think the locking mechanism on the Juki nozzles is too complex and I'd prefer switching to the Samsung nozzles if there was a good nozzle adapter available.

Jason

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[Lance Endres]

Thanks for the background, Jason!

I bought both types with the intent of testing them.  I also bought the cam-style head (commonly called the "Chinese head" but I really hate that name).  I was reviewing this assembly with my friend and noted that I could not find any commercially available adaptors to mount the Samsung nozzle adaptor.  He pointed out that the motor to pneumatic swivel connector might work (it does rather irritate me that I didn't recognize this myself).  I took apart one nozzle/motor assembly to test the connector on the other.  Sure enough, it works. 

I haven't tested this on a machine so I can't speak to if this is a good solution.  But a basic examination gives me the impression that there is no more slop than that of the Juki nozzle adaptor that came with the head.  So I would expect a similar performance.  I have not been able to locate that component sold individually, but there is probably a way to track it down.

[Jason von Nieda]

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/799/OpenPnP-CP40-Holder will thread into https://www.robotdigg.com/product/798 directly. I think that is how it's intended to be used. I can't remember at the moment if I've tested the runout on that configuration or not. I might have it in the basement - will check and test later.

Jason

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[Markus Rechberger]

If someone's interested we have made some magnetic Juki nozzle adapters, I think we can offer 2-4 units, and we can make more if needed.

The adapters are made by an old man in Taiwan (handmade), he has a few old lathes in his small shop in the town and is doing precision work they are also Nickel coated to avoid corrosion.

The setscrews are needed to adjust the adapter on the motors, the motor shafts themselves seem to have some tolerance (at least the ones which I have received).

We have disassembled all the Nema8 Hollow shaft motors which we have bought from China, cleaned them and oiled them again, the quality differed a lot (anyway that was just until our regular manufacturer was able to manufacture those motors).

A dial gauge is needed for the installation (possibly it can also be done with the camera, but I used a gauge for it).

Two and more adapters can be directly next to each other without affecting each other magnetically.

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[Jason von Nieda]

Okay, this conversation re-piqued my interest, and it's been a few years since I dug around in the nozzle box, so I decided to present sort of a visual history of the various nozzle systems I've played with. I'm also cross posting this to the OpenPnP mailing list for reference purposes:

From left to right:

1. Madell Nozzle System which uses Fuji CP6 nozzles. Purchased as a comparison to #2.

2. 5mm to 5mm shaft coupler for use with Fuji CP6 nozzles.

3. Press fit Juki nozzle adapter. This one used set screws to hold the nozzle in. I think these were made by Thomas Langhans.

4. Custom quick change Juki nozzle adapter. I think this is the one I was referring to as having custom made in a shorter length.

5. Brass quick change Juki nozzle adapter. I believe this is an early protocol from Peter Betz, as evidenced by the 3D printed spring holder.

6. Threaded Samsung CP40 nozzle holder. This is available on Robotdigg, and I believe is the same one Juha sells with the LitePlacer now.

7. Threaded Samsung CP45FV nozzle holder. From Robotdigg [1] [2]. I've never used this but it seems quite nice.

8. Threaded Samsung CP45NEO nozzle holder. From Robotdigg [3] [4]. Also never used. Note that the main difference seems to be on the 45NEO the spring is in the nozzle, and on the 45FV the spring is in the holder.

9. (In separate image) This is the Juki holder on the Charmhigh CHM-T36VA. Seems to be quite similar to #3, except uses ball bearings and a rubber band to retain the nozzle.

If anyone has any questions about any of these, let me know. Happy to take measurements, provide sources, etc.

[1]: https://www.robotdigg.com/product/796/CP45NEO-or-CP45FV-Holder

[2]: https://www.robotdigg.com/product/801/SMT-CP45FV-pick-up-nozzle

[3]: https://www.robotdigg.com/product/796/CP45NEO-or-CP45FV-Holder

[4]: https://www.robotdigg.com/product/797/SMT-CP45NEO-pick-up-nozzle

Thanks,

Jason

[Markus Rechberger]

Ah one thing to add to Juki Nozzles:

there are two different types available: Steel and Aluminium (the vendor needs to be asked before ordering them, otherwise some resellers might mix them).

When I used to live in central Europe corrosion was not a big deal inside buildings, now in Taiwan things are corroding relatively quick and it's an issue that has to be addressed in areas with higher humidity.

For the magnetic nozzleholder only steel nozzles are ok.

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[3d.m...@gmail.com]

Do the magnetic holders actually work for picking parts?  I ask, as many parts are attracted to magnets, so using magnets anywhere near a nozzle has generally been regarded as a bad idea, since it might make it difficult to release the part from the nozzle.

[Markus Rechberger]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 6:49 AM 3d.m...@gmail.com <3d.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do the magnetic holders actually work for picking parts?  I ask, as many parts are attracted to magnets, so using magnets anywhere near a nozzle has generally been regarded as a bad idea, since it might make it difficult to release the part from the nozzle.

of course there's no magnetic field at the nozzle tip, it's too far away. The magnetic field is completely contained within the steel, the outer side is not attracting anything. Neither the shaft nor the steel part of the nozzle.

The magnetic field engages when the nozzle is around 75% inside the holder it will pull the nozzle out of our nozzle holder and it's firm. The tolerance of the holding part is 0.01mm.

Markus

 

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