FTDNA Timeline

[Michael Lewis]

    Now for some interesting news:

    This is a screen shot of the YDNA timeline derived from those in our group in the Lewis-2 group. If you don't know about this YDNA group, hang on, I'll explain later.

    The R-BY42599 marker at the top of the image represents our most recent common ancestor, at about 1597 CE (AD). There are two of us in the group directly descended from this ancestor, Kit numbers 80276, and B1888486.

    The R-BY66323 marker represents a split in the Lewis line at about 1775, with one descendant, Kit Number N46299.

    The R-BY46802 marker represents a second split from the main Lewis line at about 8128 AD, with two descendants, Kit Numbers 107081 and 947718.

    This graphic does not include all of us, only those on the Lewis-2 YDNA group, and it doesn't include me because I've not done the Big Y test. But I know my descent from Edmond Lewes of Lynn through paper genealogy.

    What this is telling me is that our most recent common ancestor is not an ancestor of Edmond Lewes of Lynn, but is Edmond himself, born, according to the Passenger List from the Elizabeth, in 1601, and our Northern/Southern split is from 1775 (Samuel?) and 1828. However, and this is a big however, if the most recent ancestor in the FTDNA graphic was indeed born around 1597, it could be that Edmond's age on the passenger list was incorrect, for whatever reason.

    This brought me back to some of my original research of the occurrences of Edmond/Edmund Lewes/Lewis in the UK from the 16th and17th Century. In my Edmond Lewes database I find an Edmund Lewis born in 1597 in Ipswich, Suffolk, England, recorded in the Parish records of St. Clements Church in Ipswich. I also have three wills from the Archdeaconry of Suffolk for brothers John (1625) and William (1626) both naming Edmund Lewis as heir. Another will, that of Richard Lewes (1625), merchant of Ipswich, names Edmond Lewes as his son, indicating that Edmond was apprenticed to rope maker Luke Fisher. These wills, as well as the birth records of John and Thomas Lewis in Ipswich. along with The Freemen of the Borough of Ipswich, which lists "Edmond Lewes 1632 Ipswich," remembering that Edmond and family left Ipswich in 1634, pretty well nails down our Edmond Lewis as being born in Ipswich in 1597, to Richard Lewes and unnamed wife. Maybe.

    If you're interested in the Lewis-2 group and all the wonders it portrays, go HERE.

    Well ... I've dropped a big load on you all this evening. I think its time to cogitate on this some more and try and track down more about this Richard Lewis of Ipswich.

    All the best,

    Michael

   

[Daniel Cushman Lewis]

This is great Michael!  I was just getting warmed up to ask someone to look at the DNA testing results on the Ftna Block Tree as I don’t understand it well enough to do it myself but thought that something might be there.  I have been waiting for something like this to happen.  And thanks Geoff for taking the Big Y test!  

On Feb 14, 2023, at 10:40 PM, Michael Lewis <mal...@calcentral.com> wrote:

     Now for some interesting news:

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[Daniel Cushman Lewis]

Michael does this help Joy?  Does the Durret line descend from Timothy?

On Feb 14, 2023, at 10:40 PM, Michael Lewis <mal...@calcentral.com> wrote:

     Now for some interesting news:

[Geoff Lewis]

Not a problem Happy to contribute. I had taken one of the smaller tests earlier thinking I was just confirming the work that my grandfather had done and when it came back I said oh no no I'm going to get to the bottom of this and took the big y. My grandfather happened to also be a history teacher in Bedford Mass where I grew up so he was particularly well suited for doing genealogy so there was an added amount of surprise when it came back not as expected.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/descendants-of-edmond-lewis/56CB7685-C6AC-4E81-A543-A5E8A54CDFFF%40gmail.com.

[Joy Durrett]

We need more people in this group to upgrade to Big Y before was can get a clearer picture. So far We have 4 people on is Ron. 

We have the southern branch which is Dave. 

Until then Ron’s branch is a guess. It is believed he is from the Northern branch. 

One person Ron matches on the Allen surname has lived for 10 generations in the same area on Charolette, Prince Edward Island Canada. Close to New York. Ron’s ancestor Asa Lewis  was in the war of 1812. It shows he enlisted in New York. So now I wonder was he really from Canada and left there and came to the New York. His match is going to try to find out who his 3rd and 4th Great Grandparents were as this is where we match. 

I will keep you posted if and when I hear back from him. 

Joy

 

Joy

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2023, at 3:48 AM, Geoff Lewis <glew...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/descendants-of-edmond-lewis/CALQrqrwJdu4cXNUPudyt0jPrQSOfitjMjTpuW_5hXbsWtjFmtQ%40mail.gmail.com.

<kbdcajajjjpnfgnf.png>

[Joel Lewis]

Great find, Michael. I hadn't seen that timeline before, but I haven't spent much time on the Lewis surname project for quite a while. Great information being given the last couple of days. If Harlan is correct, Ron and Geoff have found their ancestry. I have done extraordinarily little research back beyond Samuel in South Carolina as that is not fulling straightened out. I've relied on genetics and the research of others, most notably Michael's, for information about those early Lewis generations in North America. I do have some comments:

1) The timeline doesn't include Jackie's nephew, Charles, who is a match to me on 66323. Not sure why. Maybe this timeline was done before that kit tested for 700. If Jackie's tree is correct, this is a lineage descending from Edmund's son Thomas. I think the STR results bear this out as well.

2) The birth dates given in the timeline say "born around." Based on research I did a 2-3 years ago, these dates are calculated based on assumptions for the average years between generations and average generations between mutations. Generations can vary widely in years, and ancient mutations were unaffected by modern scientific calculations. No geneticist can precisely date a mutation signifying a birth and split in a lineage. The estimates are probably better today than they were 2-3 years ago as a lot more data has been collected, but still no more, and possibly less, accurate than historical documents, overall. I say that knowing there are errors of accuracy in these records. I would be careful not to make any hard conclusions about birth dates based on the dates given in the timeline. They are generally close, but not precise. But, it sure would be neat if the information Michael has is correct for Edmund's father and brothers, and it is possible, and I look forward to it being verified. This has me excited.

3) Given that, I don't think we can say BY42599 is Edmund in the absolute sense, though it very well could be so. If the lineages given by Harlan and by members here are correct, then Edmund is the most likely candidate to be the originator, or a very early carrier, of mutation BY42599. I still think it is within the realm of the possible to be his father or even his grandfather as the originator of this mutation. I think it is safe to say we in the Lewis-2 project's R1b Group 10 are descended from a common ancestor historically very close to, and of course related to, Edmund, if not Edmund, but we cannot say anything more precise than that until we have more genetic and/or conclusive historical data within our group to verify it. The information pointing to Edmund is possibly even stronger than the information pointing to Samuel in Edgefield County, SC, as my ancestor. I just think we need to keep an open mind for the time being. Of course, anyone is welcome to argue that point with me.

Don't let any of that dampen your spirits. I'm excited this new information Michael has given and would be more than delighted if proves correct.

Dave

[Michael Lewis]

    Thanks for your detailed reply Joel. I agree with all of your points. I admit I don't understand all of this timeline, where it comes from and how it is derived. Time may tell.

    I understand that the "birth" dates are based on assumptions that may not be accurate, and the 1597 date for BY42599 may not be Edmond. But it also can't be Edmond's father or grandfather if Edmond was indeed born around 1601. I continue to assume that this is Edmond and that the 1597 suggestion doesn't mean necessarily that the Elizabeth passenger list was in error as to Edmond's age at the time he signed on.

    However, the passenger list that we have available was transcribed in the 19th century by Michael Tepper from records found in London, at Her Majesty's State Papers Office. There's an element of interpretation inherent in second hand transcriptions from 17th Century handwriting, so a mistranscription of Edmond and Mary's ages is quite possible.

    I do find really interesting the 1775 R-FT46802 mutation, as it lines up with the southern Samuel story. The 1828 (not 8128 as my fumble fingers typed) mutation was a surprise and gives depth to our discussions of the varied descendants of Edmond Lewes that we've had in this discussion group.

    Yes, genealogy research is all bout keeping an open mind, keeping our options open, revisiting earlier research to see how it fits with new information. There's always new places to explore, new stories to discover.
   
    Thanks to all for your thoughts. Onward!

    Michael

On 2/15/23 10:36 AM, Joel Lewis wrote:

Great find, Michael. I hadn't seen that timeline before, but I haven't spent much time on the Lewis surname project for quite a while. Great information being given the last couple of days. If Harlan is correct, Ron and Geoff have found their ancestry. I have done extraordinarily little research back beyond Samuel in South Carolina as that is not fulling straightened out. I've relied on genetics and the research of others, most notably Michael's, for information about those early Lewis generations in North America. I do have some comments:

1) The timeline doesn't include Jackie's nephew, Charles, who is a match to me on 66323. Not sure why. Maybe this timeline was done before that kit tested for 700. If Jackie's tree is correct, this is a lineage descending from Edmund's son Thomas. I think the STR results bear this out as well.

2) The birth dates given in the timeline say "born around." Based on research I did a 2-3 years ago, these dates are calculated based on assumptions for the average years between generations and average generations between mutations. Generations can vary widely in years, and ancient mutations were unaffected by modern scientific calculations. No geneticist can precisely date a mutation signifying a birth and split in a lineage. The estimates are probably better today than they were 2-3 years ago as a lot more data has been collected, but still no more, and possibly less, accurate than historical documents, overall. I say that knowing there are errors of accuracy in these records. I would be careful not to make any hard conclusions about birth dates based on the dates given in the timeline. They are generally close, but not precise. But, it sure would be neat if the information Michael has is correct for Edmund's father and brothers, and it is possible, and I look forward to it being verified. This has me excited.

3) Given that, I don't think we can say BY42599 is Edmund in the absolute sense, though it very well could be so. If the lineages given by Harlan and by members here are correct, then Edmund is the most likely candidate to be the originator, or a very early carrier, of mutation BY42599. I still think it is within the realm of the possible to be his father or even his grandfather as the originator of this mutation. I think it is safe to say we in the Lewis-2 project's R1b Group 10 are descended from a common ancestor historically very close to, and of course related to, Edmund, if not Edmund, but we cannot say anything more precise than that until we have more genetic and/or conclusive historical data within our group to verify it. The information pointing to Edmund is possibly even stronger than the information pointing to Samuel in Edgefield County, SC, as my ancestor. I just think we need to keep an open mind for the time being. Of course, anyone is welcome to argue that point with me.

Don't let any of that dampen your spirits. I'm excited this new information Michael has given and would be more than delighted if proves correct.

Dave

On 2/14/2023 7:40 PM, Michael Lewis wrote:

    Now for some interesting news:

    This is a screen shot of the YDNA timeline derived from those in our group in the Lewis-2 group. If you don't know about this YDNA group, hang on, I'll explain later.

    The R-BY42599 marker at the top of the image represents our most recent common ancestor, at about 1597 CE (AD). There are two of us in the group directly descended from this ancestor, Kit numbers 80276, and B1888486.

    The R-BY66323 marker represents a split in the Lewis line at about 1775, with one descendant, Kit Number N46299.

    The R-FT46802 marker represents a second split from the main Lewis line at about 1828 AD, with two descendants, Kit Numbers 107081 and 947718.

    This graphic does not include all of us, only those on the Lewis-2 YDNA group, and it doesn't include me because I've not done the Big Y test. But I know my descent from Edmond Lewes of Lynn through paper genealogy.

    What this is telling me is that our most recent common ancestor is not an ancestor of Edmond Lewes of Lynn, but is Edmond himself, born, according to the Passenger List from the Elizabeth, in 1601, and our Northern/Southern split is from 1775 (Samuel?) and 1828. However, and this is a big however, if the most recent ancestor in the FTDNA graphic was indeed born around 1597, it could be that Edmond's age on the passenger list was incorrect, for whatever reason.

    This brought me back to some of my original research of the occurrences of Edmond/Edmund Lewes/Lewis in the UK from the 16th and17th Century. In my Edmond Lewes database I find an Edmund Lewis born in 1597 in Ipswich, Suffolk, England, recorded in the Parish records of St. Clements Church in Ipswich. I also have three wills from the Archdeaconry of Suffolk for brothers John (1625) and William (1626) both naming Edmund Lewis as heir. Another will, that of Richard Lewes (1625), merchant of Ipswich, names Edmond Lewes as his son, indicating that Edmond was apprenticed to rope maker Luke Fisher. These wills, as well as the birth records of John and Thomas Lewis in Ipswich. along with The Freemen of the Borough of Ipswich, which lists "Edmond Lewes 1632 Ipswich," remembering that Edmond and family left Ipswich in 1634, pretty well nails down our Edmond Lewis as being born in Ipswich in 1597, to Richard Lewes and unnamed wife. Maybe.

    If you're interested in the Lewis-2 group and all the wonders it portrays, go HERE.

    Well ... I've dropped a big load on you all this evening. I think its time to cogitate on this some more and try and track down more about this Richard Lewis of Ipswich.

    All the best,

    Michael

[Sherman Lewis]

is this what you need?

Sherman Lewis
Professor Emeritus, Cal State Hayward
President, Hayward Area Planning Association
510-538-3692, she...@csuhayward.us

[Joel Lewis]

Hi, Sherman. Hope you are doing well.

Your attachment, I think, is of the regular STR markers from our y-dna match list. Big Y is different and deals with SNPs. Without going into details, STRs do not trace specific lineages very well because they are more volatile and change more frequently, scrambling the results. They can establish a relationship, however. Obviously, or they wouldn't be used. SNPs through FTDNA's Big Y program are very stable markers and can be used to identify and trace specific lineages, if related individuals test. Big Y is fairly expensive. If everybody in our group tested, it would help some but possibly not others. It is hard to say who it would help and who it would not, so some would be left waiting for new members before they could make any progress. This does happen, as it did for Ron Durrett and Geoff Lewis a while back.

The alternative is this: There is a site called Y-Seq (for Y-dna sequencing) where you can ask for specific SNPs to be tested. If we were to ask them to build a test "panel" that included our known SNPs from Edmond and below, based on those of who have tested Big Y, untested individuals could test for those at a rather low cost. And, it is pretty cheap to get them to build the panel. Each would have to send in and pay for a DNA sample to be tested, and then pay for them to run it against the panel. But it is relatively low in cost. There are drawbacks to this approach.

Big Y is able to identify an individuals "private" SNP markers that are unique to each person. Then when someone else matches a private marker, they will know they belong to the same lineage. The Y-Seq panels cannot identify the private markers. You might learn you are descended from Edmund or, if lucky, that you belong to the same lineage as someone who has already tested Big Y. But, if you do not match a tested individual, you are back to square one and will have to wait for existing members to test or for new members to test and join in.

Hope that makes sense.

Dave

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[Sherman Lewis]

good grief, there is too much to know! I will retire from the field, and good luck to you big y'ers.

Sherman Lewis
Professor Emeritus, Cal State Hayward
President, Hayward Area Planning Association
510-538-3692, she...@csuhayward.us

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/descendants-of-edmond-lewis/b45b4f53-0b13-69da-60da-bd45d0722718%40zohomail.com.

[Joy Durrett]

If anyone knows Ron’s ancestry please come forward. Because I don’t. Geoff knows his Ron doesn’t. Geoff and Ron have not found there common Ancestor. We need more people to upgrade to Big Y. 

All I know is Asa Lewis was in the War of 1812 and enlisted in New York. It is assumed he was from New York. He then migrated to Sandstone, Jackson County, Michigan. 

Autosomal DNA Ron matched someone on the surname Allen. There are 3 in the group. His Allen’s were once in the state of New York. His went to Vermont when Vermont became a state. 

Another match. His Allen’s have  all lived in the same place for 10 generations. So he is going to help if he can. They are from Canada right next to New York.  I am waiting to hear back from him. 

So were Asa Lewis’s ancestors  from New York or Canada? 

So Michael if you know Asa Lewis’s ancestors and you can connect me back with documents that would be great. 

Micheal you see no need to upgrade to Big Y however if you did upgrade you might help me to find my place in the Lewis project. 

Everyone is happy 4 of us have done Big Y  However to truly know the branches we need more Lewis’s from this group to upgrade to Big Y. 

Speculation doesn’t count. Only documents count along with DNA. 

I hope some will upgrade to help us 4 learn more about our branches. 

Joy

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2023, at 12:07 PM, Sherman Lewis <she...@csuhayward.us> wrote:

 is this what you need?

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<Y-DNA matches SLLIII 2019 April Family tree DNA.html>

[Michael Lewis]

    Hello Joy:

    There are eight Asa Lewises listed in George Harlan Lewis's Edmund Lewis of Lynn and Some of his Ancestors, only one of which could have served in the War of 1812:
    Asa Lewis, b. July 19, 1778, in Groton, MA, He was a wheel wright, and died in Groton June 10, 1846. Married first Lucy Fletcher.  They had 9 children: Lucy, William, Harriet, Mary, Sarah, Asa (Born 1812, d. 1863), Luther, Louisa and Benjamin. He married second Lucy's sister Martha Fletcher.

    Michael