Inkstands and bounders

[Andy Smith]

Here’s a question for Manuel and everyone else.

The French MI AP DV 59 (the ‘inkstand’) is a small AP mine that has a plastic cased detonator and chemical initiator with no metal content at all. A detection ring (large metal washer) can be fitted under the fuze but is ‘optional’. There is a Dutch copy, the NR 22C1 (also known as the Model 22) which appears to be identical. I found the mine shown above in an office (NPA Mozambique) but I suspect that it was brought to the country for display purposes (other things were). The packaging and peripheral indicators were borrowed from Colin so that I could cover it appropriately in training materials – but I think I was wrong to bother.

My question is, has anyone ever found either of these mines in the ground? Or in storage?  And if so in which countries?

Also, if the Dutch copy is different – how does one tell them apart?

And while I am puzzling over why Holland should ever have made mines in the first place, what about the Dutch NR 23C2 bounding fragmentation mine...? Has anyone ever found that? If so where? Anyone got a good picture?

Thanks,

Andy

www.nolandmines.com
www.ddasonline.com

[franco...@gmail.com]

Good morning from Tindouf Algeria,

 

APDV 59 was found in Western Sahara, Angola too I think.

I am going to check it with French speaking forum.

 

About Dutch mines, this the place to go and ask for any information:  http://www.lexpev.nl/aboutme/index.html

 

Kind regards,

Manu

 

Manuel Gonzal

France : 9 rue des lavoirs 86330 La Grimaudière +33646006612

Algérie : Minurso LO 37000 Tindouf +213656379736

Skype : gonzaldemexplo

https://www.franco-mines.com/Accueil

 

De : demi...@googlegroups.com <demi...@googlegroups.com> De la part de Andy Smith
Envoyé : mercredi 27 novembre 2019 11:24
À : demi...@googlegroups.com
Objet : [HD] Inkstands and bounders

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[franco...@gmail.com]

Hi Andy,

 

I confirm Western Sahara, Djibouti (all cleared in 2008), Angola in storage.

 

Kind regards,

Manu

 

Manuel Gonzal

France : 9 rue des lavoirs 86330 La Grimaudière +33646006612

Algérie : Minurso LO 37000 Tindouf +213656379736

Skype : gonzaldemexplo

https://www.franco-mines.com/Accueil

 

De : demi...@googlegroups.com <demi...@googlegroups.com> De la part de Andy Smith
Envoyé : mercredi 27 novembre 2019 11:24
À : demi...@googlegroups.com
Objet : [HD] Inkstands and bounders

 

Here’s a question for Manuel and everyone else.

--

[Andy Smith]

Thanks Manu – and sorry for the delayed response.

 

Presumably they were found and cleared because they had the detection washer on – or was it area excavation? I still wonder whether the Dutch copy ever ended up anywhere – and I now know that it is clearly marked (stamped) so should be easy to identify. Same with the Dutch NR 23C2 bounding fragmentation mine... Their own needs would never have justified the cost of setting up production – so they must have at least tried to market them, but maybe not?

 

Here’s another question – showing that I still need to buy an EOD anorak.

 

These fleshettes come from an Israeli cluster strike area in Lebanon, so what munition would have been used?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Oh yes, and may 2020 see an improvement for all of us: not before time.

 

That grumpy old man,

Andy

 

 

 

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From: franco...@gmail.com

Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2019 5:21 PM

To: demi...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [HD] Inkstands and bounders

 

Hi Andy,

 

I confirm Western Sahara, Djibouti (all cleared in 2008), Angola in storage.

 

Kind regards,

Manu

 

Manuel Gonzal

France : 9 rue des lavoirs 86330 La Grimaudière +33646006612

Algérie : Minurso LO 37000 Tindouf +213656379736

Skype : gonzaldemexplo

https://www.franco-mines.com/Accueil

 

And while I am puzzling over why Holland should ever have made mines in the first place, what about the Dutch NR 23C2 bounding fragmentation mine...? Has anyone ever found that? If so where? Anyone got a good picture?

Thanks,

Andy

www.nolandmines.com
www.ddasonline.com

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[George Zahaczewsky]

Good morning, Andy, and a belated Happy Christmas!

I saw your image, and thought that I would weigh in with an opinion.  I don't believe that the flechette in the image has anything to do with the cluster munition strike.  Flechettes such as these could be found in some US artillery projectiles, as well as some US air-to-ground rockets (2.75", aka Hydra).  The Russians also have the 122mm SH1 projectile that employs similar flechettes (see attached image).  Hope this helps.  All the best for a healthy and prosperous New Year!

George

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/demining/F3D0F8DFFBAF4B3FB18D3FD97ED46657%40UserPC

.

[richard.boulter]

Andy 

HALO also encountered Type 59 mines in Angola. I remember one bridge to the west of Huambo, cleared in 96 or 97,  where they were excavated as there were no detection rings present. 

As for the fleshette it looks identical to that used in Sov (AP) tank rounds - but how much variety is there in these darts? 

Have a good 2020. 

Richard

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: Andy Smith <a...@nolandmines.com>

Date: 27/12/2019 19:00 (GMT+07:00)

To: demi...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [HD] Inkstands and bounders

[Robert Keeley]

Hi Andy

A belated merry Christmas to all!

I’ll be uncharacteristically controversial and remind us all that however Ill-considered the Israeli bombing of Lebanon was, their targeting was quite efficient. They were bombing things they considered militarily significant. A pile of the munitions that carried these, or the weapons that fired them, would be such a target.

I’ve never encountered a cluster munition that fires flechettes. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one, but Occam’s Razor would suggest that, in the absence of any other evidence, that this is from the Israeli target rather than from an Israeli weapon.

Bob

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[Andy Smith]

Thanks to Richard, George and Bob,

 

To Richard especially for confirming that the type 59 inkstand was used without detection washers in Angola – so I did not waste my time by covering them in my training materials. Having wasted my time on rather too much, that is good to know.

 

To Bob for pointing out that the darts could have resulted from the strike hitting unfired munitions on the ground.

 

To George for using the correct spelling “flechette” – even if I like the honesty of my inadvertent “fleshy” alternative – and for identifying the Hydra M255E1/A1 and M255 rockets that can be Apache helicopter fired and have individual darts weighing either 1.8g or 3.9g. Israel has Apaches, of course.

 

 

Those I have found in Lebanon are the larger of the two shown – so on current evidence, they probably come from a M25521/A1 Hydra 70 warhead – or possibly from a Soviet AP tank round... The flights are a different shape, which might imply the latter (I know the smaller is US because I picked them up in Florida many years ago – armour being my thing and that little dart passing like a needle through ordinary Kevlar). Anyone know the weight/shape of the Soviet darts?

 

While I do not doubt Dr Bob’s statement that Israel’s targeting was efficient and that they prioritised military targets, there is also no doubt from the evidence on the ground that the majority of the cluster munitions (M series and BLUs) were used as area denial weapons on land that was principally agricultural (grazing when not terraced) or just high-ground so ‘potentially’ useful to defenders (which means just about anywhere). Using my version of Occam’s razor, I presume that Israel knew what it was doing and that releasing so many submunitions too low for them to complete arming before landing (so achieving the area denial effect) was probably deliberate. I don’t accept the widely believed argument that Israel made a policy of using its old stock so that it could be resupplied by Uncle Sam, but acknowledge that it could have some truth in it. One reason for discounting it is that the damned things still work, as the accident record in demining shows, so ‘old stock’ or not, the simple if sensitive fuze systems on the M42, M46 and M77 still work after many years exposed to the weather. Hey, the politics is truly labyrinthine with Uncle Sam’s positive influence very apparent in Lebanon today – so I ain’t judging, just trying to understand what may be lying around on the ground because that’s what I tell others to do (and because they often, if optimistically, expect me to know).

 

Many thanks for the inputs: a good end to a troublesome year.

 

Andy

 

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[Robin Collins]

I'd have to go with Andy's reading over Bob's of the 2006 Israeli attack in Lebanon. Even if you aim at and hit military targets but the impact is broadly civilian, that means you have failed to exclude civilians (ie the weapons are unacceptably indiscriminate) and you can be accused of war crimes. Thus Israel was insuffiently efficient. Most point to numbers in the range of 95% of those affected were  civilian casualties. 

But were they targeting military objects?

"A commander of an IDF MRLS unit told a Ha'aretz reporter, "What we did was insane and monstrous; we covered entire towns in cluster bombs." He said that, in order to compensate for the cluster rockets' imprecision, his unit was ordered to "flood" the area with them.[12]

https://www.hrw.org/report/2008/02/16/flooding-south-lebanon/israels-use-cluster-munitions-lebanon-july-and-august-2006.

Robin 

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[Robin Collins]

Insufficiently efficient...

[Andy Smith]

Apologies George, I just looked back at your picture of the SH1 projectile and the flights are very different – so the M25521/A1 Hydra 70 warhead is now a firm favourite. I should have looked more closely before.

 

If I know what was used, I know what may be lying around as UXO/duds, that’s all. The scatter of the darts on the ground (only a few found over a wide area) makes me presume an air burst, but I doubt the reliability of all munitions by instinct these days. Yes, sadly my life is pretty boring.

May you and your family be well,

Andy

www.nolandmines.com
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