Using CoolProp for Combustion Products

[Gerard Lardner]

Hi all,

 

I was considering whether it is possible to use CoolProp in Excel for calculating the properties of combustion products from a large-scale waste incinerator. For an incinerator burning mixed domestic waste (RDF – Refuse Derived Fuel or SRF – Solid Recovered Fuel) in air, the combustion products would typically include Nitrogen, Oxygen, and other components from the air, Argon, etc., also Water, CO2, CO, NO, NO2, SO2, HCl and possibly traces of HBr, HF, and other hydrohalic acids (the latter mostly arising as products of burning vinyl plastics and PTFE).

 

There are also measurable quantities (ppm-ppb) of at least 22 other elements in the waste fuel but, as none is present in more than 5 ppm quantities in the fuel, they can be ignored for the present purpose.

 

I have used CoolProp for the properties of water and steam and also for humid air, mostly in Excel and in Smath Studio. But I can’t see how to combine the back ends in Excel to work with a mixture containing both combustion gases and water.

 

It is also not entirely clear to me if properties of any or all of the hydrohalic acids are available in CoolProp. I don’t think so; but I ask in hope that I have missed something.

[Lynn McGuire]

Hi Gerard,

You are going to need a Gibbs Free Energy Minimization program like we have built into our process simulator, Design II for Windows.  Something that tells you not only what the reaction products are but also the outlet temperature, whether it is exothermic or endothermic.

NASA has released the source code for their Gibbs Free Minimization rocket software, CEC71, at their website somewhere if you want to look for that.  It is an amazing piece of software, I want to add it to ours someday as it handles liquids better than we do.
   https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19780009781
and
   https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitstream/handle/10919/36826/CH1-3_E_DOC.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y

You are welcome to take a look at our commercial Design II for Windows software at  www.winsim.com .  We allow two weeks testdrives for free.

Sincerely,
Lynn McGuire
President
WinSim Inc.

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[Gerard Lardner]

That's rather interesting. About 20 years ago I contacted NASA Glenn Research Centre to see if the CEA code could be of use to me. Bonnie McBride herself answered a lot of emails from me. I was very sorry when she died. What a lady!

Thanks for reminding me of the GRC software and of the Gibbs Free Energy Minimization technique. I have not used the method for a very long time; I need to refresh my memory.

I had hoped there might be something I could simply plug into Excel or SMath Studio or even Mathcad; but it begins to look like there isn't. I now see that to get thermodynamic properties of most of the halic acids in Excel I would probably need RefProps or the like; only HCl is available in CoolProp; they're not in FluidProp either. Or I could do as you suggest and write my own Gibbs Free Energy Minimization routine.

My brain is slowing down; I'm finding it harder to (re)learn these techniques. Time to concentrate again :-)

Oh, and by thee way, thanks for the pointer to Design II. I'll certainly take a look.

[Lynn McGuire]

I think that I have the source code for the 2004 version of CEA / CEA2 from Bonnie McBride that I got in 2011.  I cannot find it anymore on the NASA website.  I can put it up on my website if needful.  Plus the two manuals.

Sincerely,
Lynn McGuire
President
WinSim Inc.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/coolprop-users/4c93f82a-bfd2-43a4-9420-7b72422fd3a5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Gerard Lardner]

That could be useful. I have the manuals but I cannot now find the CEA FORTRAN code. I know I had it back in around 2010 or 2012; it may be on an old PC somewhere. But if you can share the code, that would save me having to resurrect old zombies from the store cupboard, which might no longer be willing to work.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/coolprop-users/4e1fff32-cc53-69fd-a2d0-4f7bbc25a423%40winsim.com.

[Lynn McGuire]

Hi Gerard,

You can get the CEA software from
   https://software.nasa.gov/software/LEW-17687-1

I am not sure that it has the source code.  If not, please contact me.

Here are the manuals:
   https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/research-and-engineering/ceaweb/

Sincerely,
Lynn McGuire
President
WinSim Inc.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/coolprop-users/00b501d7895a%244d053d90%24e70fb8b0%24%40gmail.com.

[Gerard Lardner]

Well, that link for the software worked. Thank you.

 

I had to rediscover my NASA registration, apply through various hoops and sign a five page usage agreement, but in the end it was straightforward to get the code. There appears to be code for a series of GUIs as well, which I don’t remember from the version of CEA I had before; there’s even a pre-compiled Windows binary.

 

It also includes Part 1 of the Report and a link to Part 2; but I already have both.

 

Thanks for your help. I will enjoy exploring the code again.

 

 

 

From: coolpro...@googlegroups.com <coolpro...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lynn McGuire
Sent: Thursday 5 August 2021 03:02
To: coolpro...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [coolprop-users] Using CoolProp for Combustion Products

 

Hi Gerard,

[Nick Mason-Smith]

I figured I'd add a plug here for Cantera, which has chemical equilibrium solvers and is straightforward to script in Python:

https://cantera.org/

It can also handle chemical kinetics, though it sounds like this is unnecessary for your application.

Here is an example with adiabatic, isobaric combustion:

https://cantera.org/examples/python/thermo/mixing.py.html

I don't know about implementing it with Excel but have found it very useful in Python.

Hope this helps,

Nick

[Gerard Lardner]

Noted. I shall investigate!

 

Though I was asking about Excel as I have forgotten all my programming skills, all of which predated Python or even C++

 

From: coolpro...@googlegroups.com <coolpro...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Nick Mason-Smith
Sent: Tuesday 31 August 2021 05:42
To: coolprop-users <coolpro...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [coolprop-users] Using CoolProp for Combustion Products

 

I figured I'd add a plug here for Cantera, which has chemical equilibrium solvers and is straightforward to script in Python: