A situation (Boulder)

[DAVID A LEATHERMAN]

It has come to my attention that photographers, some of whom may be birders, are causing a problem west of Lyons in their lust for a pygmy-owl.  At the risk of pissing some of you off, and causing even more people to seek this bird by publicizing it, I ask for restraint.  The person who called me is not a birder but a guy I used to work with who knows I am into birds.  He owns property bordering Route 7 w of town where he says 16 cars full of loud-talking people pointing big cameras, rutting the right-of-way that he maintains are back again today, the way they have been in numbers for days (weeks?).  He is upset and I don't blame him.  He says that whoever these people are, they don't really care about the bird, that they act very entitled, that this is all just about getting the photo and social.  In short these sorts of situations give birders a black eye and they are becoming more commonplace.  If anyone reading this knows about the situation first hand, has been there, has a comment or rebuttal I can pass on to my friend, I am all ears.  My friend hasn't called the sheriff yet but is about to and it makes me sad to think "we" might have caused a reasonable person with deep sentiments for conservation and the natural world to be so upset.

Dave Leatherman

Fort Collins

[Kelly Ambler]

Well said!

Kelly Ambler

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Colorado Birds" group.
To post to this group, send email to cob...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/cobirds?hl=en?hl=en
* All posts should be signed with the poster's full name and city. Include bird species and location in the subject line when appropriate
* Join Colorado Field Ornithologists https://cobirds.org/CFO/Membership/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+u...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/CY4PR0601MB3763B23362D6A73BC1ACFFF5C1049%40CY4PR0601MB3763.namprd06.prod.outlook.com.

[Buzz Schaumberg]

Dave,

 

Thank you for this reminder that "we" are here for the birds and that we should lead by example to the non-birders and photographers.

Sent from AOL Desktop

 

Buzz Schaumberg

cell: 303.478.4641

--

[linda hodges]

All,

Being aware and respectful of our surroundings while birding is especially important as habitat loss and fragmentation for avian - and other wildlife -  species are increasing at a rapid pace.

Thanks, Dave, for this reminder,

Linda

Linda Hodges

Conservation Chair

Aiken Audubon

Linda Hodges

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/CAAkENDrJ6R_-Q5ZrsK0nJdAKG0-1FKu_y660%2B0DwnNT-QF_skA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Mel Goff]

In my experience, there are birders, birders who take photos of birds, and photographers. The latter are all about the photo. Backlit? No problem. I'll just crawl over this fence and go into the backyard so I can get the perfect shot. Bird sitting on inner branches? No problem. I'll just crawl up under the overhanging branches to get an open view. Private property? No problem. I'll only be in their yard for a few minutes.

I have seen this everywhere. Cutting in front of shorter folks for a better angle. Driving on fragile habitat to get as close as possible. Admittedly, this should not be an indictment of all photographers, amateur or professional. But we all see enough of this that we must (and often do) speak up.

Mel Goff

Colorado Springs, El Paso county

[Eric DeFonso]

Hi Dave,

Others may have more information than I offer in this response, but for what it's worth, I visit this particular location fairly frequently, being as it is only 10-12 minutes drive from my residence. It's one of my few "patches", and I go there not simply to ogle the pygmy-owl (as it is, I rarely encounter it myself), but to bird. It's a great birding spot, and very peaceful.

Over the past few months, my birding visits to this spot have seen quite a few more people than I had been used to seeing, compared to prior years and seasons. In general this area is popular with dog-walkers, power-walkers, walker-talkers (friends out for a walk and a chat), runners, cyclists, and of course, birders. And now, with the advent of a regularly-seen owl, photographers. And birder-photographers. And birders who wield cameras but don't really consider themselves photographers (I include myself in this latter category). Even so, on most days I visit this spot the number of other birder/photogs is easily less than 8 at any time, and often less than 4, spread out over a stretch of road that's over a mile long. Sometimes I'm even the only birder there, although since last fall, that's rarely the case because of this owl. On the days I go, people will ask me as I walk by "Have you seen it?", assuming that because I carry a camera I'm looking for the owl just like they are. I usually say "Not today", which is the truth most of the time since I really don't see it very much, but again, I'm not there specifically looking for it (although like anyone I'd always be delighted to see it). Many visits from non-locals to this area come up empty, with no owl views and hours spent fruitlessly gazing up at old squirrel and oriole nests and empty cottonwood branches.

However, I have heard on occasion of groups like what was described secondhand, larger groups of 8,10, or 15 people caravaning to the area, usually on weekends but not necessarily, usually on nice sunny days but also not necessarily, looking for and sometimes locating the bird. I too have heard of bad behavior on occasion there when that happens, although I've never personally witnessed it. The one occasion I was there recently when I did see the bird(s), I noted that everyone there (maybe 8-10 people at the most at any one moment) behaved quite well, and there was certainly no need for people to trespass or trample anything to get to a good viewing or photo spot that day. But I do know that the owl can occur in many possible areas along that road, and other circumstances and on other days there can be way more people, and some may be tempted to justify their long drives to get there by doing "whatever it takes" to get that great pic, even if the bird doesn't seem to willingly offer it on that occasion.

I don't go to this patch often enough to be a true "patrol officer" for it, but I go there probably more often than most and I do feel a small amount of possessiveness for it, despite not living right there myself. It really is one of my favorite local birding spots, and for good reason. If I ever do witness anything that could offend the residents, violate the county open-space rules, or otherwise jeopardize access to this area, you can be sure I will speak up and urge restraint. For my own selfish reasons, I would hate for my future experiences at this birding spot to be tainted by the improper actions of a few.

All this is offered simply to provide a bit more context about what may be happening. It's my experience only, and I don't claim to know all the details of what has happened.

Eric

-------

Eric DeFonso
near Lyons, Boulder County, CO

--

[Adrian Lakin]

Well said Eric. I also bird this spot fairly regularly and I have seen the same courteous behavior from the birders and occasional "just a photographer". I have a couple things to add...

Whenever I am there, I invariably run into some of the homeowners and they are very friendly and often ask if I've seen this or that bird. I am always respectful of their property and also don't point my big camera directly at their houses.

I would say that 99% of the days that I'm birding that stretch, I see the Boulder County Sherriff cruise by as well as the Boulder County Open Space folks, so it seems well patrolled.

There is parking in a couple of pull offs along the road, but not enough for more than maybe 10 cars total. There is more parking at the Heil Valley Ranch Picture Rock Trailhead around the corner, but the problem I've seen with that is when the Picture Rock trail is closed (as it currently is due to muddy conditions), Open Space closes the gate to that parking lot. Next time I see one of the Open Space trucks, I will flag them down and ask if there is a possibility of them leaving the parking lot gate open when the trail is closed and maybe just post a sign.

There are also some places along the road that do have no parking signs, but I have seen people ignore (or maybe not see) them.

Adrian Lakin,

Mead, CO

[KELLY ORMESHER]

Hi David,

I often walk Old Saint Vrain Road to enjoy the birds and beauty. I was there yesterday afternoon and was surprised not only by the number of people, but all the cars parked along both sides of the road. This has not been my experience in the past and I decided to move on. The group was a mix of birders and photographers. As I left, a local officer was arriving, so someone did call from the neighborhood. 

Although this is a popular spot, the people I meet are usually friendly and respectful to property and wildlife.  As I've already mentioned, this was the first experience of this kind and like Eric, I love this location and would also hate to see the loss of access.

Kelly

Kelly Ormesher

Longmont

---

From: cob...@googlegroups.com <cob...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of DAVID A LEATHERMAN <daleat...@msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 11:42 AM
To: COBIRDS <cob...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [cobirds] A situation (Boulder)

It has come to my attention that photographers, some of whom may be birders, are causing a problem west of Lyons in their lust for a pygmy-owl.  At the risk of pissing some of you off, and causing even more people to seek this bird by publicizing it, I ask for restraint.  The person who called me is not a birder but a guy I used to work with who knows I am into birds.  He owns property bordering Route 7 w of town where he says 16 cars full of loud-talking people pointing big cameras, rutting the right-of-way that he maintains are back again today, the way they have been in numbers for days (weeks?).  He is upset and I don't blame him.  He says that whoever these people are, they don't really care about the bird, that they act very entitled, that this is all just about getting the photo and social.  In short these sorts of situations give birders a black eye and they are becoming more commonplace.  If anyone reading this knows about the situation first hand, has been there, has a comment or rebuttal I can pass on to my friend, I am all ears.  My friend hasn't called the sheriff yet but is about to and it makes me sad to think "we" might have caused a reasonable person with deep sentiments for conservation and the natural world to be so upset.

Dave Leatherman

Fort Collins

--

[Daniel O'Donnell]

I stopped to see the owl yesterday afternoon. At that time, there were nine people at the site, all were friendly, and the parking seemed light. I got several nice photos and left after about 20 minutes. This morning, on my way to RMNP, I made another stop. This time there were about 15 or more people, most with cameras, and parking was much more dense. I took ~25 photos over a 4 minute stretch, but it was overwhelming. I was putting away my gear when your friend who lives across the street from the site came over and spoke to the group. I would say that his talk was less of a complaint and more like a strong opinion. I’ve got to say that I agreed with him. Things were out of hand, numbers wise. Some of the group expressed that they understood his position, but made no move to leave. I get it that everyone with a camera wants to get THE photo that’ll make it on the cover of National Geographic, and so stay for a very long time. Your friend suggested that only a few come at any one time. Unless there is some way to meter the number of people, that won’t happen. I would suggest that we act responsibly, find the bird, shoot a few photos and leave after 20 to 30 minutes. Will someone else get lucky and get that great photo? Maybe, but that’s just going to be what will be. Personally, I will not be going back. I’ve been lucky to see and photograph the owl, and that’s all I need.

Dan

Dan O'Donnell
dj...@me.com

-- 

[Eric Hoyt]

Hi Dave,

I live out in Lyons and thought I would comment. I don’t live in that exact part of town but I go through there on occasion, sometimes (but not always) to bird and photograph. I have been through there at different times of day, in different weather conditions, and seen varying numbers of people. 

Usually it is only a few people I see with cameras and/or binoculars, and it’s pretty easy to figure out who’s there for the owl. The road is narrow but there are places along the shoulder where you can park without obstructing (even if you have to park a little ways up or down the road and walk a bit). 

I have not seen the numbers your friend described but it would not be surprising, especially with the recent warm weather. I went through there late this morning and it was as crowded as I’ve seen it. The bird was very close to the road and there were at least a half dozen people (many with large cameras) and several cars in close proximity to the bird. It was definitely more people than I was comfortable seeing that close to a bird. I was just passing through so I did not stop to interact with anyone.

I hope people heed your call for restraint and if they see people starting to congregate to just move on. I myself love to photograph birds but it’s not worth stressing the birds or causing other issues.

Eric Hoyt

On Mar 3, 2022, at 11:42, DAVID A LEATHERMAN <daleat...@msn.com> wrote:

-- 

[ynoz4...@gmail.com]

Respectfully, you left out a category. Photographers who love to photograph birds and do so ethically. I sincerely hope there are more of us than the ones that behave as you describe.

I just want people to understand that there are photographers out there with big lenses that are not the “bad guys”.

The reason I use a big lens is so that I can get a halfway decent photo without intruding on the bird, or going where I shouldn’t. I will add, good photographers know how to handle bad lighting.

My husband and I chose NOT to look for the owl in question today precisely because so many pictures of it were shared on social media recently, suggesting way too many people were seeking it.

Certainly, call out those who behave poorly. Just please don’t paint us all with the same brush.

Happy birding😊.

Robin Jasper

Loveland

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/1296984272.1119387.1646337305409%40connect.xfinity.com.

[Gary Bowen (Thornton)]

Well said, Robin! I fit in the photographer-birder group and shoot with a 960mm (effective) lens on a 32.5 MP camera so I don't have to disturb the subject or place myself in danger.

Gary Bowen
Thornton

[John Salisbury]

Well said Eric!  

The objection that has been raised is to the large groups carvaning to the area and converging on a sighting location.  My experience on Old St. Vrain is very similar to Eric's. I have encountered a "large group" only a couple of times and then only for a few minutes.  Others may have experienced more of a crowd it sounds like.  I can understand the local resident's concern that there are a lot more people than there may have been in the past using the road these days.  Runners, dog walkers, cyclists, birders.  Yes things change but it is a public road.  We are all within our rights to be there as long as we are not blocking the road or breaking the law.  I agree everyone needs to be respectful to the people who live there and to the wildlife we are all trying to see. I think the solution is not to stop going there to bird but for everyone to act more responsibly, obey the law and not "crowd" up.

The concern I haven't heard anyone bring up is the possible harm a large group converging on a sighting might have to the wildlife and in particular the Pygmy Owls.  I had a resident walking his dog express that concern to me.  He mentioned that the Great Horned Owls in the valley prey on the Pygmies and that once the owls establish a nest that he is concerned a large group might point it out to the GH's.  I would like to hear people's opinion regarding that.

I would also like to comment on the comments made about people with "big camera lenses" looking to get a photograph of a bird.  Maybe a few of you have seen me out there birding and photographing, I'm the guy carrying his big lense on a tripod over his shoulder. If this offends some people I am sorry but it's how I choose to bird.   I fall in the group of photographers who bird and In my opinion having a big camera lens allows me to get close enough to a bird to not only ID, it but enjoy the incredible detail and beauty from afar with the least amount of disturbance to the wildlife.  I like to get good photos of them to share and also to help me learn about and ID them.  I would agree there are a few rotten apples out there doing bad things to "get the photo",  but please do not lump all of us with long lenses in that group.

Enough said,

John Salisbury

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/CAFjVA_Y7%2Begd_fqQN2Jo8NdGHcmCerOeDML7zvHsBYWKsYB%3DBw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Diana Beatty]

I would like to ask about the CPWs distance recommendations for viewing/photographing roosting raptors.  I find birders/photographers are usually far closer than they recommend.  

Diana Beatty

El Paso County

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/CAAyUNC%3D_rG_JaPqE9rUHcz%3DDCMB2sNtdb6W1iuBONBgXkWLChA%40mail.gmail.com.

--

******

“I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo. “So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

[Tyler Stuart]

Diana,

Good thought to include CPW's recommendations in this conversation. I will add that those recommendations were updated in 2020, and the new distance for Burrowing Owls is 200 meters, rather than the 50 meters shown on the card you shared.

Not speaking to this situation specifically, but there may (perhaps often) be times when it's best for a roosting owl to be appreciated by the "discoverer" and then let be. Just another thought to add to the mix here.

Birdifully,

Tyler Stuart

Colorado Springs

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/CAM-_j9vpBDRQE9ZwU%3DhVrof-tQEgkDvSR_ik0b2hFJFyne7cRA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Scott]

Hi Everyone.

I have been studying Northern Pygmy-Owls for more than 20 years. I do
not care in the least about who is getting images of the owl in Lyons.

My concern is  for the birds themselves. To give some natural history of
Northern Pygmy-Owls

They begin courtship in mid-February, which some of you have seen. Their
territories can be as large as a square mile. They will mate anywhere
within that area at anytime from mid-February until they begin nesting
which is often from late April to late May.

The male will find a cavity that he likes and try to entice the female
to accept it.  This is when I feel problems may occur as people will
want images of this.

This is the one of the most crucial time for the owls.  If at anytime
after the female has accepted the nest until the eggs hatch she can
abandon the nest if she does not feel safe.  If she does this the male
will have to find another site that she likes, which can be several
hundred yards away.

Another problem that I can see arising is all of the people near the
owl. There are so many Cooper's Hawk around now that they can become a
problem and predate the owls, as they will be watching people to see
what they may be looking at, because it may be a potential prey item for
the hawk.  This can be particularity problematic when the owls are
spending more time looking at people with cameras rather than keeping an
eye out for both potential prey and predators.

Another very sensitive time is when the young begin peering from their
nest.  If people are watching the owlets in the nest, this can attract
potential predators to the nest which includes squirrels that can
predate the young in the nest.

Once out of the nest the young owls are also vulnerable to predation
from  jays, magpies, crows, squirrels and hawks as they will be
frightened by people trying to get photos of them and try to fly away.

I would recommend that everyone leaves the birds alone after the
beginning of April and let them nest and raise their family in peace.

Just my thoughts,

Scott Rashid
Director of CARRI

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Dan Stringer]

There's good food for thought in this thread which we should keep with us on the trail. And when we're in people's neighborhoods. To me, whether it becomes disruptive to the bird and/or property owners is often determined before anyone arrives. Since we know that the birding community is ever-larger, more connected with intel traveling fast and far, more discretion re: what we put out there these days might be necessary. 

My comments aren't so much about this specific owl or this location, rather that we can often determine ahead of time what type of scenario would develop and choose when to lay low. I appreciate when someone provides info about an uncommon bird and I like to share interesting sightings too. What owls and other species not to list, breeding situations, proximity to neighbors or viewing area, etc. is always situational and often above my pay-grade but my takeaway is when we decide it's best not to post something, none of the issues we're discussing will occur.

Dan Stringer

Larkspur, CO

[Susan Rosine]

Well said, Scott, but I'm betting it's not anyone who subscribes to this List that was/is  misbehaving. 

It is still a GREAT reminder for ALL of us as we approach the courting, mating, and nesting season for a great majority of birds.

Susan Rosine

Brighton

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Colorado Birds" group.
To post to this group, send email to cob...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/cobirds?hl=en?hl=en
* All posts should be signed with the poster's full name and city. Include bird species and location in the subject line when appropriate
* Join Colorado Field Ornithologists https://cobirds.org/CFO/Membership/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+u...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/26887e4b-befa-ed86-c6f5-a5ee3c1a8544%40frii.com.

[MARK CHAVEZ]

Dan, as always right on point.  This is not a photographer issue or birder issue but an evolution of social media.  There is a trend that everyone feels that a specific location is required when reporting a bird.  You should NEVER give specific locations in a neighborhood without speaking to the homeowner first.  Not everyone is comfortable with 100 pairs of binoculars focused in their backyard.  Would you??? The Pine Warbler in Denver is a perfect example.  I refound the bird the first day reported and had a great conversation with the homeowner.  He stated he wanted the  location placed in Ft. Logan like the finder did.  He did not feel comfortable with the idea of people staring at the feeders in the frontyard.  But in the last few weeks people have been giving out the specific location/home address. 

If anyone was in Broomfield for the Sedge Wren, you understand.  A friend sent me a disturbing video of ten birders in a circle surrounding the bird, and then counting to ten and taking a step inward everytime, closing the circle, and attempting to get this poor bird to flush.  The individual who sent me the video never got the bird and no longer goes to these situations.  Once you report an exact location, you can expect sometimes hundreds of people decending on the location,  many to see or photograph a beautiful bird, get a lifer, or for social needs. I have many owl locations that I would never give specific locations on.  Like Dan stated, it is a personal decision that needs to be thought out.  Once you give the specific location, it's unfair to point fingers at birders or photographers.  I know many people that don't report specific locations for different reasons including protecting a patch, the bird, or neighborhood.  There's nothing wrong with using a hotspot and have people "bird" and maybe find something else. 

 

Mark Chavez
Lakewood-Green Mtn
http://jaeger29.smugmug.com/

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Colorado Birds" group.
To post to this group, send email to cob...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/cobirds?hl=en?hl=en
* All posts should be signed with the poster's full name and city. Include bird species and location in the subject line when appropriate
* Join Colorado Field Ornithologists https://cobirds.org/CFO/Membership/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+u...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/9739626f-5419-42c0-bd8d-7aaa8f762617n%40googlegroups.com.

[Susan Rosine]

I reported (and continue to report) a "rare" bird at my house. Luckily, it hangs out in the front yard, in a neighborhood with wide streets and lots of parking. Also fortunate is the fact that  the bird is only rare in this part of Colorado, and it's not an especially photogenic bird.  I only report the exact location knowing that the bird won't attract a ton of visitors, and the neighborhood can accommodate people parking for awhile. That's MY choice, but the people on the Hotspot road don't have that choice.

In the case of the owl, if everyone had just used the Hotspot location, and not given out the specific area at the hotspot, maybe things would not have gotten out of hand...but hindsight is always 20/20. That road is narrow, with very few parking pull-offs. If I lived on that road, I'm sure I would be upset too, at increased car traffic and people parked where they should not be, but at this point, what can WE do, except to maybe stay away, or at a minimum, don't report the location on eBird for awhile, in hopes that things will die down, once the photographers get their shots. 

I think the bulk of us on CoBird "do the right thing", but there are certainly other social media sites where not everyone can be trusted to "Bird Ethically".

Susan Rosine

Brighton Adams County

[Chuck Aid]

Dan Stringer is right on!  Nip it all in the bud by not posting - when we decide it's best not to post something, none of the issues we're discussing will occur.

Chuck Aid

Evergreen, CO

[Evon Holladay]

When you raptor monitor for CPW you are not allowed to share for this reason... 

discretion is the better part of valor....’ for the birds

--

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Colorado Birds" group.
To post to this group, send email to cob...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/cobirds?hl=en?hl=en
* All posts should be signed with the poster's full name and city. Include bird species and location in the subject line when appropriate
* Join Colorado Field Ornithologists https://cobirds.org/CFO/Membership/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Colorado Birds" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cobirds+u...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/e4b0b74a-9592-4668-b92b-2925b82fc7c8n%40googlegroups.com.

[Preston Sowell]

Just my two cents on this thread.

Yes, some photographers can be disruptive, just as some birders with only binoculars can. We all do need to provide feedback when we see that.

As a photographer and birder who has seen quite a bit of photographer bashing in this group, I would like to remind everyone of the significant good that a high quality wildlife photograph can do for the conservation of species. i.e., there may be a reason that a photographer is spending a lot of time getting the right shot. People don't really protect what they don't know. People do not resonate with a description in a book or even a painting in the same way that they do with a photograph.

Preston

Boulder, CO

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cobirds/817a7aef-a517-4a7a-b0ed-cfd72caf198en%40googlegroups.com.

--

Preston Sowell
303-775-6920 (cell)


 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
This communication may contain confidential or legally privileged information, including confidential - attorney work product material prepared in connection with litigation.  If you have received this message in error, please notify me immediately and delete the communication.  Any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of the contents of this communication is prohibited.