Raspberry 4 and ClusterHAT

[Jon Beltran de Heredia]

So Raspberry 4 is out (https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-4-on-sale-now-from-35/). I'm very excited by this (new CPU, 4GB RAM, USB3, real 1Gbps Ethernet, hopefully better SD card speeds?). My questions here: does ClusterHAT work with it? Even if zeros are starting to look so limited in comparison, will network-over-USB be faster? Thanks Chris for the amazing work!

[Ciprian Manea]

Hi Jon,

It’s likely that all clusterhat USB ports are USB 2.0 (actually all 4 USBs used for mounting vertically the Pi Zero’s are advertised as 2.0)

Hence your speed increases would be coming from:

+ networking (rPi 3B+ has its Ethernet limited at a total of 300 Mbps, in and out traffic, USB 2.0 speed) as rPi 4 can do 1 Gbps over its Ethernet

+ running code and packet switching for clusterhat on rPi 4 as its processor is faster, plus has much better bandwidth/connection to the DRAM

But otherwise, your Zero’s would be as slow as before 😊

Regards,

Ciprian

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 12.18, Jon Beltran de Heredia <jonbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

So Raspberry 4 is out (https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-4-on-sale-now-from-35/). I'm very excited by this (new CPU, 4GB RAM, USB3, real 1Gbps Ethernet, hopefully better SD card speeds?). My questions here: does ClusterHAT work with it? Even if zeros are starting to look so limited in comparison, will network-over-USB be faster? Thanks Chris for the amazing work!

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[Chris Burton]

Hi, 

So Raspberry 4 is out (https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-4-on-sale-now-from-35/). I'm very excited by this (new CPU, 4GB RAM, USB3, real 1Gbps Ethernet, hopefully better SD card speeds?). My questions here: does ClusterHAT work with it? Even if zeros are starting to look so limited in comparison, will network-over-USB be faster? Thanks Chris for the amazing work!

I'd expect so but I'll need to wait for my Pi4 order to turn up, I'm building new test images (I picked a great time to update those) for buster as it looks like stretch isn't going to work but hopefully they should be ready when the Pi4 arrives.

I wouldn't expect much change on the USB throughput but as it has a new USB core there might be some differences (like hopefully supporting more than 8 host channels).

Chris.

[Duncan Reed]

Also the 4 may not be as fast as expected. Or it is but due to running very hot it throttles itself back to cool down, with a hat and 4 zero’s on top airflow wont be great to start with, I wonder if a heat sink can be squeezed in.

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[David Glaude]

If temperature of the core of a Pi4 is the issue, then a fan is the solution (such as the one I have on my PoE HAT).

But if you go for a HAT, then you have no space for the Cluster HAT anymore (Chris did this and poster picture, but I don't feel like replicating that).

The alternative would be an "external" solution, so that the PiZero are not on top of the Controler Pi, but somewhere on the side.

Now, what does the ClusterHAT really use from the Pi GPIO... not much (and it depend on your version).

It is either a few GPIO, or I2C (as far as I remember), so maybe a RTK.GPIO could do the trick, or anything that can be controlled over USB.

So that would be a Pi as controller, then one USB to control the RTK.GPIO and one USB for the HUB part of the ClusterHAT.

But expect for a more powerful controller, and taking more space, there is no big win (assuming it does work that way).

The win come if the Pi4 support more simultaneous USB device.

Anyway if you want to put more that 4 PiZero, you would need more space, so an external solution could be a big win.

So the new "product" would be "something you connect to the PI, and where you can plug numerous independent PiZero".

It might be less "sexy" than a HAT, but if it can hold even more PiZero, while still beeing able to individually turn them on and off and boot from the USB, that could please the niche market that is into ClusterHAT.

Just a few idea, I am happy with my ClusterHAT and might never need something bigger, but that would be one way to go for a bigger Cluster.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/clusterhat/32A73AA7-6FFA-4CF0-8E13-D5227C585C25%40elminster.com.

[Ciprian Manea]

Hi there,

You should be able to stack https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/fan-shim on top of rPi 4, then https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/booster-header on top of the fan, which should give you plenty of room to have the clusterhat on top. The only problem? You'll need some tall spacers for the clusterhat too, not to fall on its side 😇

Regards,

Ciprian

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[Ian Goldsmith]

Theres a much better answer for cooling - the pimoroni clusterhat case is 80mm at the ends - just leave the ends off and jam in an 80mm usb-powered fan.  80mm fans are efficient and effective. 

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[Cypress Twist]

I made this for cooling. Two external USB-powered coolers. More details and pics here: http://razvancoloja.com/un-al-doilea-cluster-pe-care-l-am-facut/

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 9:04:12 PM UTC+3, Ciprian Manea wrote:

Hi there,

You should be able to stack https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/fan-shim on top of rPi 4, then https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/booster-header on top of the fan, which should give you plenty of room to have the clusterhat on top. The only problem? You'll need some tall spacers for the clusterhat too, not to fall on its side 😇

Regards,

Ciprian

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 8:57 PM David Glaude <david...@gmail.com> wrote:

If temperature of the core of a Pi4 is the issue, then a fan is the solution (such as the one I have on my PoE HAT).

But if you go for a HAT, then you have no space for the Cluster HAT anymore (Chris did this and poster picture, but I don't feel like replicating that).

The alternative would be an "external" solution, so that the PiZero are not on top of the Controler Pi, but somewhere on the side.

Now, what does the ClusterHAT really use from the Pi GPIO... not much (and it depend on your version).

It is either a few GPIO, or I2C (as far as I remember), so maybe a RTK.GPIO could do the trick, or anything that can be controlled over USB.

So that would be a Pi as controller, then one USB to control the RTK.GPIO and one USB for the HUB part of the ClusterHAT.

But expect for a more powerful controller, and taking more space, there is no big win (assuming it does work that way).

The win come if the Pi4 support more simultaneous USB device.

Anyway if you want to put more that 4 PiZero, you would need more space, so an external solution could be a big win.

So the new "product" would be "something you connect to the PI, and where you can plug numerous independent PiZero".

It might be less "sexy" than a HAT, but if it can hold even more PiZero, while still beeing able to individually turn them on and off and boot from the USB, that could please the niche market that is into ClusterHAT.

Just a few idea, I am happy with my ClusterHAT and might never need something bigger, but that would be one way to go for a bigger Cluster.

Le lun. 24 juin 2019 à 14:28, Duncan Reed <dun...@elminster.com> a écrit :

Also the 4 may not be as fast as expected. Or it is but due to running very hot it throttles itself back to cool down, with a hat and 4 zero’s on top airflow wont be great to start with, I wonder if a heat sink can be squeezed in.

On 24 Jun 2019, at 13:21, Chris Burton <bur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, 

So Raspberry 4 is out (https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-4-on-sale-now-from-35/). I'm very excited by this (new CPU, 4GB RAM, USB3, real 1Gbps Ethernet, hopefully better SD card speeds?). My questions here: does ClusterHAT work with it? Even if zeros are starting to look so limited in comparison, will network-over-USB be faster? Thanks Chris for the amazing work!

I'd expect so but I'll need to wait for my Pi4 order to turn up, I'm building new test images (I picked a great time to update those) for buster as it looks like stretch isn't going to work but hopefully they should be ready when the Pi4 arrives.

I wouldn't expect much change on the USB throughput but as it has a new USB core there might be some differences (like hopefully supporting more than 8 host channels).

Chris.

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[Ian Goldsmith]

Yeah i think i prefer mine - fan blows through the orientation of all five boards. 

scavenged the usb 8cm fan i was using for something else atm so its not on but you get the idea.

But you get the idea on the fit - the pimoroni case looks nice lightup with the lightubes for the LED’s 

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[Peter Cross]

To jump on a the band wagon...  lol

I did this as well. But I added heat sinks to all of the pi’s for heat dissipation. The 3b+ has copper heat sinks on the bottom. 

Cheers!

Peter J. Cross

San Antonio, TX

Sent from Fort Crux

Please excuse any brevity, it's pure Sarcasm. 

On Jun 25, 2019, at 07:22, Ian Goldsmith <ian.go...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah i think i prefer mine - fan blows through the orientation of all five boards. 

scavenged the usb 8cm fan i was using for something else atm so its not on but you get the idea.

But you get the idea on the fit - the pimoroni case looks nice lightup with the lightubes for the LED’s 

<BF70C094-0EBE-47B1-A94A-9B90D0931D0F.jpeg>

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[Ciprian Manea]

Hi Ian,

So the Pimoroni case can house the rPi 3B+ or 4 with the copper heatsink on it, plus the clusterhat and the 4x Zero Pi’s on top of that?

Just double checking 🤓

Thanks!

Ciprian

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[Ian Goldsmith]

Yes but even with the pi4, i doubt you’re gunna even need the copper heatsink.  With a bit of airflow from a larger fan it never gets warm, even without heatsinks - partly why i scavenged the fan is i have it in some airflow from something else, and thats plenty. 

Plenty of 8cm fans available for nothing that are silent though, compared to smaller fans with extremely poor efficiency and often noisey.

You can see ive left the back of the case on, since the restriction on airflow didnt even matter, but this may help you understand fit. Its a pi2b+ iirc

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[Ian Goldsmith]

to uh, be helpful for anyone wondering what the heck it is - I thought it was pimoroni making it but it might be modmypi - there's a clear version of it these days - https://www.modmypi.com/blog/clusterhat-case-assembly-instructions 

pretty sure original lasercut plans for it were opensource if someone hunts around.  Back then I didn't have a 3dprinter which would be my solution today ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ not obvious from my down-the-barrel photo that the air going through the host-pi does have places to escape - there's an opening on the side in the gap at the end of the GPIOs, as well as some air going up past the clusterhat at the end / out through audio /hdmi port hole etc.  it's open enough not to be a worry, on the whole i'm pretty happy with it as a piece of kit (and am not in any way affiliated with a sell of it).  Only thing I'd improve on the design is drilling some holes in the top to be able to poke through the top to make sure zero's are properly seated - the assembly involves trying to align many pieces at once and a little tedious for the final assembly, even though its only a ten minute job - it can mean if you don't have the zero's seated you'll have a bugger of a time fixing it. 

[Ian Goldsmith]

oh and sorry for spamming people but because i dont want to be responsible for someones grief.. i noticed the fine print says it may only fit a clusterhat2.0 - which mine is, the 2.2 your lightpipes probably wont work without hackery from the comment in the above.  

[Chris Burton]

Hi, 

oh and sorry for spamming people but because i dont want to be responsible for someones grief.. i noticed the fine print says it may only fit a clusterhat2.0 - which mine is, the 2.2 your lightpipes probably wont work without hackery from the comment in the above. 

The case fits all Cluster HAT v2.x versions, the v1.x had the LEDs at a slightly different spacing (and orientation on one) so I'd assume that's what they was trying to use. As ModMyPi is now ThePiHut I'm not sure what'll be happening with the Cluster HAT cases but hopefully they'll continue them.

I don't think you'd get am 80 mm fan in there but a 60 mm fan is a nice fit, I've just removed the end panel on one of mine and wired it up to a the 5V connector at the front :).

Thanks,

 Chris.

[Ian Goldsmith]

Ah indeed, sorry again, mine mustve been 60, i shouldnt send late night emails.  The clear looks nice!

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[Matha Goram]

I've used copper heat sinks on all five CPUs for a v1.x model since I started during the early days. The heat sinks have stayed put (unlike the PiSense HAT where the horizontally mounted heat sink slid off! Of course, I don't want to rant about the usefulness of the PiSense data.). Two nodes run continuously for monitoring purposes and the other two are scheduled every minute. The controller does time series analytics of the data from the nodes. Looking forward to the Buster images.

I love to promote ClusterHAT (for what I'm doing) without hesitation.

Kind regards.