Nazi Holocaust and Nuclear Threat

[Brian D'Agostino]

Dear all,

My response to Alter Yisrael Shimon Feuerman in the "Israel and Genocide" thread really merits a new thread which I am entitling "Nazi Holocaust and Nuclear Threat."  I have copied and pasted Alter's and my posts below.  If you wish to comment on this new topic, please use this thread, as the previous one is getting maxed out.

Brian D'Agostino

On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 10:09 PM Brian D'Agostino <bdagost...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you, Alter, and all.  Much has been said here that merits further discussion.  For now, I want to respond to Alter.  First, for those who do not know me, I am a retired political scientist.  I did my doctoral research on the psychology of American militarism.  When I was still a graduate student, I was arrested several times for non-violent civil disobedience during protests of nuclear weapons research in Manhattan.  More on Hiroshima and its relevance to the topic of genocide below.  For now, those who know me and my work can attest to the fact that, if I bring a prosecutorial energy to the table, it is the prosecution of American power that animates me.  

I am a US citizen and I strongly believe that morality begins at home.  In addition, with some 700 military bases throughout the world and more money spent on our war machine than China, India, Russia and the next few most heavily armed states spend combined, the United States is the world's only superpower.  If the United States was not enabling Israel, we would not be having this conversation.  However, the Middle East is only one arena on the global chess board in which the US is acting.  This arena, where oil interests dominate, is of a piece with militarization of the Pacific and of space directed at China, expansion of NATO in Europe directed at Russia, and indeed what our Pentagon calls "Full Spectrum Dominance," which can be translated from the military jargon as total world domination.  So there, I have put my cards on the table.  If you feel good about Pax Americana, you and I are talking across a political divide.  (P.S. Like your uncles, Alter, my father fought the Japanese in the South Pacific).

Earlier this year, I organized a panel discussion on each of the two major wars occurring in the world today.  The one on Israel-Palestine included Israeli peace activist Sharon Dolev, Israel scholar Claudia deMartino, US peace activist Barbara Taft, and clinician and psychohistorian Inna Rozentsvit.  Panelists on Ukraine were clinician and psychohistorian Ken Rassmussen and myself.  If you missed these panels and would like to view the video recordings, you can do so by registering retroactively for the conference at https://psychohistory.us/conference/

Finally, to put the current discussion of genocide in a broader context, I want to say a few words about the atomic bombings that occurred eighty years ago yesterday and this coming Saturday.  Japan had already been defeated and Emperor Hirohito was exploring surrender options through Russian and other diplomatic back channels.  The US had broken the Japanese code and knew this.  Contrary to Truman Administration propaganda that the atomic bombings saved countless lives, Truman and Secretary of State James Byrnes knew that if the Emperor ordered Japanese troops to stand down as part of a surrender agreement, they would have stood down; when you get orders from a god, you follow the orders.  

The US use of the Bomb twice in 1945, like most US foreign policy since, had nothing to do with the legitimate security needs of the US public or any other civilian population.  It has been about global power.  The US used the Bomb because the USSR was scheduled to enter the war against Japan in August 1945, and the US wanted Japan to surrender exclusively to the US, not to the US and other allies as in Germany.  And because the US wanted to demonstrate to the USSR and the world that we had the ultimate weapon and were willing to use it.  For that, the US incinerated tens of thousands of Japanese civilians eighty years ago with two bombs.  This ends my prosecution of that particular genocidal atrocity.

All of the above has been thoroughly documented.  See, for example, Gar Alperovitz, Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb: And the Architecture of an American Myth.  On the psychohistorical implications, see especially Robert Jay Lifton and Eric Markusen's book, The Genocidal Mentality: Nazi Holocaust And Nuclear Threat, and my concise review of it in Political Psychology.

Brian D'Agostino

bdagostino.com

On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 6:05 PM Alter Yisrael Shimon Feuerman <simon.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

In the last couple of days, I meditated on Brian‘s post. 

It had a prosecutorial feel and the intensity of a criminal indictment.  

It felt as if it were fueled by feelings that preceded it or at least have been a long time cooking in a crockpot. Obviously, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it took away from its effectiveness for me.

  Stein‘s comments as well for me had a surplus of intensity. Not that the occasion doesn’t warrant an urgency but the sharpness and inspector Javert-like focus on Israel seems to come from somewhere else . As though your mind has been made up long ago, and now an occasion Has been found to seal in an airtight way, among them your long held beliefs about the ““ criminality“ of the Zionist enterprise

And the allusions that victims are victimizers seems forced over here. It has a perverse poetic symmetry, but not an actual one. It’s  not that it’s lacking information. I I agree that Jews do not have a lock on the phrase genocide, but the reason that they would want to is a good one.

To compare a holocaust annihilation To other or an all forms of annihilation is tempting But there are a few instances to truly compare to Hitler’s holocaust.  

It did not take place in the context of a war or any mitigating circumstance. Jews did not collectively come from a beehive to take German‘ hostages or in any way to declare war on Germany. On the contrary, they were citizens of that state. Gaza -Hamas is a different attacked the state of Israel and their express belief is to annihilate.  Many experts for leave that their motivation is not for land, but is theological goal to bring themselves closer to their God by establishing supremacy over Jews. If they could overpower Jews, they probably wouldn’t have to. In any event, they knew full well What would await them when they attacked. Of course this is not a rationale for cruelty

There are wars that are provoked, and there are wars that are not provoked. The war that Israel is conducting against Hamas is a provoked war along the same lines the war that the United States waged against Japan was a provoked war same for the war that the United States waged against Germany. today is the Anniversary of the dropping of the bomb on Nagasaki. One can argue about the morality of that decision, but it was definitely in the context of having had the Japanese attack Hawaii. even in Japan people like my uncles who fought against the Japanese in the South Pacific are not considered war criminals in Japan or Germany. The Japanese understand that they paid a price for the aggression of their government - Even if they are in some sense or were morally innocentIf you start a war, you must be prepared to lose. And understand that your Citizens suffer. Shame on the Japanese imperial government and shame on the Nazis.

 Finally, There are certain groups of people often women, sometimes Jews, whose aggressiveness arouses an enormous amount of anxiety in people Whereas the aggression of others does not arouse the same level of acute agitation. 

Having said all that,  because you have said things that I don’t want to hear I must certainly need to hear them.  And I do. Your words are a call, however flawed — to rise to the highest level of humanity. And I accept your words in that spirit.

Alter Yisrael Shimon Feuerman, PsyD, LCSW, co-director

New Center for Advanced Psychotherapy Studies (Ncaps)

6 DeBell Court

Passaic Park, NJ 07055

646.554.5768

 

[Esa Palosaari]

Hi Brian,

How does the thesis, that the Imperial Japanese Army would have surrendered if the god-emperor Hirohito would have ordered it even before the bombs, deal with the attempted military coup d’état after the army learned about Hirohito’s intention to surrender, after Hiroshima and Nagasaki? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident

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I still wonder how the Americans were able to turn Japan and West Germany into liberal democracies but seem to be unable to repeat it. It might be relevant to the future of peace in the Middle East. I’ve read some writers suggest that nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan, in the same vein as in Japan and Germany, would have required much larger monetary and manpower investments than the thousands of billions of dollars poured into them already, and the American public would not have been willing to bear it. 

I’ve been wondering about the possible deterioration of competence, skill, and knowledge in social sciences from those times, but of course people, cultures, societies, and religions are also different. There might not be much possibility for outsiders to really understand or to have an effect on the internal debate within the Muslim world, for example. However, at the same time, before the failure of the secular Arab Nationalism and Socialism in the 1967 Six-Day War, my understanding is that Middle Eastern societies and cultures were actually receptive to Enlightenment ideas, ideals and institutions. Even if mainly as a way for the armies to gain more power against the West and Israel... Maybe the current failure of Islamism and Muslim Brotherhood in dominating Israel and the West will open minds again to new possibilities? For example, I’ve been pleasantly surprised to learn of the effectiveness of deradicalization programs in Saudi Arabia. The current version of Saudi Arabia money and presence in Gaza could even be more helpful for peace than the U.S. and E.U. financed UNRWA and PA textbooks inciting violence against Jews (https://www.timesofisrael.com/european-parliament-condemns-incitement-in-palestinian-unrwa-textbooks/). 

Esa

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[Brian D'Agostino]

Thank you, Esa.  The scenario you indicate is precisely why the Pentagon is always planning "worst case scenarios."  One such scenario was plans for a US invasion of Japan, which apologists for the atomic bombing always cite to dramatize the loss of life that was supposedly averted by the use of the Bomb.  Note the following, however.

1.  The success of a coup against the Japanese emperor was always a risky bet, and as it turned out did not succeed.  Maybe it would have succeeded if the Bomb had not been used, but no one knows that.  If the US seized upon and supported the emperor's surrender initiatives and the emperor addressed the entire nation about the need to make peace before the entire country was destroyed, it is plausible (though nothing is certain) that a war weary Japanese public would have supported the emperor, making a coup even less politically feasible.  The failure of US leaders to even explore surrender options instead of use of the Bomb as a first resort is beyond irresponsible.

2. Why did the US not plan for a joint US-Soviet invasion of Japan as a worst case scenario instead of a unilateral US invasion?  The answer is apparently because US leaders wanted to dominate the USSR after the war, not share power with them.  This is the real origin of the Cold War, which in American lore is always blamed on the Soviets.

3. It always seems in the US that there are unlimited resources for war preparations and war itself, but not enough money for most anything else.  I addressed this psychology of ideology in my May IPhA presentation on Ukraine, which was part of my panel with Ken Rasmussen.  Building international cooperation and multilateral arms reduction agreements would have saved trillions of dollars, and with such savings there would have been enough money for the kind of expensive nation building that you mention, in various places with an eye to ensuring a stable and liberal peace.  But that would be vilified as "socialism," while money for war is "national security," a sacred cow in the US.  

There was actually a struggle in the US between these two visions of the future and at the 1944 Democratic National Convention, the overwhelming majority of delegates supported Henry Wallace, who promoted the preferred vision I indicated.  Wallace was also overwhelmingly popular with the US public.  One of the saddest moments in US political history was the defeat of Wallace in the convention due to dishonest parliamentary maneuvers of the party bosses, who wanted Harry Truman instead, an empty suit and non-entity who could be counted on to do the bidding of the war mongers and corporate establishment.  This story is told in Oliver Stone's fabulous documentary series The Untold History of the United States.

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[Judith Logue]

Hi, Brian, and others,

 

On tangential but related topics to Holocaust and Nuclear Threat… I am reminded of the bestselling 1958. The Ugly American. a book by Burdick and Lederer that addresses American arrogance and ignorance in world politics, and to what Brian highlights as U.S. irresponsibility about our use of the bomb and making war a priority.  I posted this on a Substack thread:

 

In case we haven't noticed, Putin has changed the world order using Trump's psychopathic/sociopathic skills and his narcissism to do it. Trump wants the Nobel Prize*, and if Putin isn't holding out that to him as a goal, along with world power and money, I'd be shocked. Putin's a master psychopath/sociopath/narcissist etc with more self-control and savvy than Trump, as we know. Meeting on Alaskan (USA) ground is a major achievement for Putin and Russia. Trump doesn't care about the NoBelly Prize, just the Nobel! Maybe the Universe will provide a medical event or a shooter. But Putin and his Russian Mafia have good reason to keep Trump on the planet. JD Vance would not be so good a puppet for Putin as Trump. We'd have to stop Putin, not just Trump. Good luck with that. Tucker, Tulsi, and all the Trumpers are in Putin's pocket now, too.

 

Also, I think immorality as a bad "norm" has replaced integrity. The incompetence and corruption of today were discussed years ago in the 1958 book, The Ugly American, by Burdick and Lederer. Sadly, our ignorance and arrogance in some if not much of foreign policy since WW 2, and our consumer, glitzy/gold, and celebrity fetishes (including, but not limited to, entertainment narcissist, DJT), have come home to roost. The death of many innocent people continues to be a price. Hopefully, our grandkids will take us to a balanced world in which all nations finally face the fact that we are all in this together and that dominance with cruelty, greed, and corruption work but not so well as the rule of law and morality for humans of any political party, gender, race, or country. The White House renovations reflect how false and superficial we have become as a nation (often inadvertently and unintentionally). Unfortunately, we have met the enemy, and we are they, to paraphrase Walt Kelly in his Pogo comic strip. If only this were funny.

 

I still hope and pray for democracy w/o patriarchy (“equivilarchy”!) and ending this Trump/Putin abhorrent autocracy, theocracy, and kakistocracy.  I won’t live to see Medical Privacy (instead of abortion vs. forced birth), but hopefully my wise, wonderful, educated, and patriotic grandkids can shoulder the unfair burdens that are theirs.

 

Judy

 

 

Judith Logue, Ph.D.

18604 Tranquility Base Lane

Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987

609-915-9155

www.judithlogue.com

www.goldilox.net

www.shAIRing.com

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[Brian D'Agostino]

Judy and all,

I actually remember reading The Ugly American in the late 60s, when I was a right wing Republican in a Catholic Prep school in the suburbs of NYC.  Ten years after the book first came out, it still had a lot of readers in the US. My wife Connie and I have also watched the film of the same name with Marlon Brando, based on the book.

I am no fan of Putin.  However, there is a lot of unhinged character assasination and psychopathologizing of the man in the US media, which is convenient for those who want to "fight Russia to the last Ukainian."  I know that is not where you are coming from, just suggesting some caution in how you read the coverage of Putin in the US media.  For a critical but fair-minded and balanced biography, I recommend the one by Richard Sakwa, Putin: Russia's Choice.  See also my critique of psychohistorians who pathologized Putin in Clio's Psyche and my Ukraine presentation at IPhA 2025, which identifies US militarism as the primary, long-term cause of the Ukraine conflict.

Warm regards,

Brian 

https://bdagostino.com/

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[Brian D'Agostino]

I omitted the link to my critique of the psychohistorians who pathologized Putin in Clio's Psyche: https://bdagostino.com/resources/BD%20JOP%20reply%20to%20Ihanus%20and%20Beisel.pdf

[Judith Logue]

Thanks so much, Brian.  I just read these reviews of the Sakwa book.  I look forward to reading your critique and presentation.  You never fail to enlighten me.  I laughed that you of all people were once a right wing Republican in the late 1960s.  I was a Government major (’63) with a very conservative and very liberal professor and went crazy figuring out how to be anything but “Centrist.”   Each one was too extreme for me.  But this was before I got enamored with bell bottoms in the late 60s.  Ken Fuchsman understands bell bottoms better than anyone I know.

 

Judy

 

5.0 out of 5 stars A relief to read what 's really happening.

Reviewed in the United States on November 11, 2005

Verified Purchase

It 's really a relief to read an objective analysis of what Mr. Putin's been up to. Thoughtful, thorough with no axe to grind, the author sheds a new and welcome light on current Russian politics. I have traveled the CIS many times and read many books about Russia's post-communist transition; usually finishing a book still a bit puzzled and remembering Churchill's remark that Russia was a 'riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.' But no more! - Now, Mr. Sakwa has turned the lights on for anyone who cares to bypass the tabloid press to find out what the true status is of Russia and the direction the Federation is heading. What truly astounded me was how competent and multi-tasked Mr. Putin has had to be to wrestle Russia's post communist political behemoth into a new, stable beginning for true domestic and international progress. A relief to read, actually.

19 people found this helpful

 

5.0 out of 5 stars Best book on Putin

Reviewed in the United States on December 10, 2010

There are about 10 books on Putin at the Syracuse University library. "Putin Russia's choice" by Sakwa (ISBN 978-0-415-40766-3) is the best. I found it very helpful for my graduate research paper on Putin's political leadership.

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[Judith Logue]

I’m reading it now.  😊  Thanks, Brian.

 

Judith Logue, Ph.D.

18604 Tranquility Base Lane

Port St. Lucie, Florida 34987

609-915-9155

www.judithlogue.com

www.goldilox.net

www.shAIRing.com

 

 

From: clios...@googlegroups.com <clios...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Brian D'Agostino
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2025 12:07 PM
To: Clio's Psyche Forum <clios...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [cliospsyche] More Topics

 

I omitted the link to my critique of the psychohistorians who pathologized Putin in Clio's Psyche: https://bdagostino.com/resources/BD%20JOP%20reply%20to%20Ihanus%20and%20Beisel.pdf

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cliospsyche/CAPm4jp%3DSZbeUNdfV7URv7iQAGzp9zbnYfXdQ6mH0%3Dcyc2R1xOA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Brian D'Agostino]

Looking forward to any comments you may have, Judy.  Note that my text is in two parts, one beginning on the first page of the PDF and the second on page 22 of the PDF (with David Beisel's and Juhani Ihanus's responses to my initial comments in the intervening pages).

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[Judith Logue]

Karma is a bitch is what came to mind.😢

Judy

Judith Logue, Ph.D

609-915-9155

www.judithlogue.com

18604 Tranquility Base Lane

Port St. Lucie, FL 34987

On Aug 10, 2025, at 9:57 PM, Brian D'Agostino <bdagost...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Judith Logue]

Brian,

I have read your erudite essay and responses.

They are comprehensive and thought provoking to say the least.

Add to these complex and complicated analyses that the US is patriarchal and founded by white Christian men - though with separation of church and state -

and that we adhere primarily to traditional masculinity  ideology and that our child rearing practices etc etc, are often harmful to all genders (e.g.,boys are socialized for war) - the current chaos and changes in the world, the climate, and psychology/sociology/culture  are hardly surprising, but truly  scary, painful, and upsetting.

We have met the enemy and we are they to paraphrase Pogo.

Would that more people could/would/should be aware and conscious of our own hatreds and authoritarian wishes - and learn how to maintain a strong functioning executive ego - what my mother called it self control! 

Personal analysis can excavate the unconscious.  It offers the choice to continue our patterns thar are self defeating or harmful to others .

But the choice to choose love, collaboration, and peace or hate, competition, and war is still a choice.

Sadly, many people remain blind or clueless or have been so damaged they are unable.

Judy

Judith Logue, Ph.D

609-915-9155

www.judithlogue.com

18604 Tranquility Base Lane

Port St. Lucie, FL 34987

On Aug 11, 2025, at 4:56 AM, Judith Logue <jud...@judithlogue.com> wrote:

 Karma is a bitch is what came to mind.😢

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[Hannah Armbrust]

Greetings! 

I hope everyone is doing well. Please let me know how I can unsubscribe from the group. 

Thanks!

Hannah 

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[Brian D'Agostino]

Thank you, Judy.  Fortunately, we are not at the mercy of psychopathology and unconscious complexes.  These things are the result of parenting patterns, and we can change these patterns through parenting education.  Toxic masculinity, for example, arises from the relegation of infant care to females, combined with socialization of males to renounce their "feminine" sides.  Males caught in this contradiction feel "feminine" inside because of their mother introjects, and are constantly having to prove their masculinity to satisfy the dictates of their gender socialization.  

For individuals inheriting this complex, the only remedy is psychotherapy or some other healing process enabling the man to work through his socialization and adopt a more androgynous ego ideal.  However, there is a society-wide intervention we can all support that can change the personalities of the future, namely, classes in parenting in high schools that are a mandatory course (like part of the health curriculum) for boys and girls.  This pushes back on the patriarchal socialization that creates toxic masculinity, while simultaneously counteracting dysfunctional parenting practices such as corporal punishment and other practices that reproduce psychopathology.  This kind of educational program was successfully implemented in some NYC high schools.  For more on this see Margaret Kind's article, “Teaching Parenting in Schools” Psychohistory News Vol. 33, No. 3.  Go to https://psychohistory.us/newsletter-of-the-international-psychohistorical-association/ and scroll down to Summer 2014.

There are many aspects of psychopathology, of course, and other parenting education interventions that can address some of them.  Here is a partial list:

• Home visiting programs for post-partum doulas and pediatric nurses (to support healthy attachment and parents’ capacity for mentalization/reflective function);
• H. van de Rijt and F. Plooij (2017), The Wonder Weeks, a baby manual that outlines cognitive stages in the first 15 months and toys and games suitable for each stage;
• PEPS Magazine (in French); supports positive parenting regardconscient.net/newsletter/accueil-peps.html  IPhA president Marc-Andre Cotton played a role in this initiative;
• Parents First!, an educational organization that supports parenthood  parentsfirst.net  This is a project of Inna Rozentsvit.

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