Semistandard tree spacing (B.118 and MM.111)

[Will McMahon]

Hello all, I'm beginning to plant a small cider apple orchard in the Finger Lakes region of New York this coming spring, and I have been doing research on tree spacing. I've used the search function here and got some relevant threads, which were helpful, but I'm still trying to zero in on a final answer. I'd be very grateful if anyone could offer their thoughts!

Geographic details:

Growing zone 5b
Elevation ~1300 feet (~400m)
Top of a hill, windy and flat
Well-drained gravelly loam soil

We have a sheep farm and will eventually be grazing under the trees, though as they establish themselves we will use a tractor to mow.

We've ordered the initial batch of trees from a couple local nurseries (Cummins and Mehrabyan), with a mix of varieties that are on either B.118 or MM.111. We're planning to slowly fill out the orchard site over the next 5-10 years as we learn what works best for us.

Here are the questions I'm trying to work out on tree spacing:

1. If we're planning a low intervention, no spray system, with normal but not particularly intense pruning, what is a reasonable spacing to allow for each tree to stand alone and not be too crowded?

It seems like 25' x 25' (about 7.5m x 7.5m) spacing within and between rows would be safe. However, I've seen a lot of closer recommendations, like 16' x 20' (about 5m x 6m) or 20' by 25' (about 6m x 7.5m). Cummins has MM.111 listed in its "Semi-Standard" category for spacing, recommending 18' by 25', but then on individual tree pages it lists the recommended spacing for MM.111s as 24'. It also lists B.118 separately in the full standard category requiring wider spacing (30' x 40') except on the individual tree pages it's also just 24'. Other guides list the two rootstocks together as semistandards and recommend the same spacing for them.

If I'm going to let them grow with light intervention once they're established, would something like 20' x 25' be safe long-term, or should I stick with 25' x 25'? I'm not too concerned with maximizing production, so I am happy to err on the side of having enough space to maneuver, but I want to make sure I'm not just adding in space unnecessarily.

Or, should I give the B.118s a little more space within rows than the MM.111s? I know, beyond that, some varieties are more robust than others, but I'd rather not vary spacing by variety if it can be helped, since it'll be a mix rather than solid rows, so I'd err on the upper end of required space per rootstock.

2. I've read that it's best to plant rows north-south, with smaller trees further south so they're not shaded out. This seems smart, especially considering that the orchard site is pretty flat, so I'm not benefiting from a south-facing slope. That initially made me think I should plant the B.118s further north, since they may get a bit taller, and generally try to sort by precociousness of variety.

However, there is a seasonal spring and stream running through the north end of the site, which means there's a swath of wet soil in the Spring. I'm planning to give it a decent berth when planting (maybe keeping ~20' away from any soil that gets seasonally waterlogged), but I know roots can travel pretty far and I was reading MM.111 rootstock does a bit better in wetter soil. Should I instead have the northernmost trees be those? Not sure how to properly weigh the factors.

I'd appreciate any and all input anyone might be able to give.

Thanks!
Will

[Stephen Buffington]

Will, this sounds like a fun project! As a grower that uses M.111, has numerous plantings at different spacing and has raised sheep I would suggest going with the wider spacing options, especially since you don’t need to maximize fruit production. At 25’x25’ you don’t have to worry about N-S orientation (almost no shading from a tree 25’ to the south, assuming your tree gets to ~20’), but more importantly your pasture grass will be better with more light and space between trees. I have cherries on 12’x12’ and the grass is mostly gone, even without grazing or traffic. 

I’m less familiar with B.118  but I would think most of the same concerns would remain. I love M.111 and if I had it to do over again I would do everything in that rootstock, probably 15’x15’ with my poor soil and no grazing. Of course I say that now that my M.111 are 20 years old and are surpassing all my semi-dwarfs in quality and quantity 😉

Stephen Buffington

Shawnee Hill Farm

206.941.6353

On Nov 3, 2025, at 1:58 PM, Will McMahon <wmcma...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Dave Fulton]

Hey Will,

Sounds like a fun project!

To some extent, the answer depends on the amount of work you want to do in the orchard. You can at least theoretically plant semi-standards at much much closer distances (I do so myself, experimenting with 10' by 10' in one of my orchards - primarily on MM111). Having sheep under them will mean some labor on your part to control the height of your lower canopy. If you want a conventional looking tree with minimum intervention on your part, the spacing options you list in your email make sense. If you are willing to do without lower framework branches because of your sheep, and keep the trees canopy narrow (no permanent branches), you can go with any combination down to the narrow option I go with, the water + resource competition for which will naturally dwarf the full size of the resulting tree. 

DF

DF

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[Bill Carwile]

Will,

I am in central Virginia just south of Lynchburg, Va which is Zone 7B.   I planted a small backyard orchard

in 2013 on MM111 and spaced my trees 20 ' apart and the rows 24' apart and so far it is O.K.  My orchard is small and I mow with a lawn tractor but you will probably have to go a little farther between the trees depending on the size of your tractor and the width needed for it to clear the trees. Also. I pruned on central leader for all trees and initially headed back the central leader to 24" at one year and for later trees I headed back to 30".   I wish I done all of the heading back to 36".    I'm thinking you will want to head back to about 36" or slightly more to keep the sheep from dooing the heading back and pruning for you.

Bill Carwile   

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[David Wyatt]

As Dave says above, you can go closer. You wouldn't really want to but I know for a fact that a major UK cider producer plants on MM106, MM116 and MM111 at 5ft apart in rows that are I guess about double that apart (I've not measured, just big enough for their largest harvester to fit though). They call this a 'hedgerow' system as a development on from the more traditional (commercially at least) bush orchard. The spray regimen is then quite a lot though. Their older orchards look like they are anywhere from 8ft to 12ft, possibly a bit more for the oldest but they are harder to see. Just sharing so you can see there are approaches being used successfully that go against the received wisdom.

That said, I also know of a community orchard that looks like its planted on MM106 at about 8ft spacing, and because they have been trained as standards the tops are all a bit of an intermingled mess that would be a nightmare to prune. Another community orchard is more like 15ft apart but on worse soil and it looks almost like a barren wasteland.

As for waterlogged soil, there's another village near me which is below sea level and has a lot of very old orchards that are still very productive, so I wouldn't be overly scared of planting in wetter soil.

Perhaps planting in a quincunx pattern would help so if you find some trees are overcrowded you can thin the odd one out to improve spacing in 5-10 years time?

Dave

[Stephen Mahon]

These are m111, mostly cider types in South Jersey. I planted on a 20 by 20 grid. 

Steve Mahon. 

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[Will McMahon]

Thanks for the replies, all! Interesting to see/hear different orchard plans, and I appreciate the advice on sun, wet soil, etc.

Stephen, the quality of the grass is absolutely something I should be thinking about more, so thanks for the thought there. It's a good argument for wider spacing, as I think about what the trees might be like 20+ years down the line.

For those who mentioned controlling the lower branches due to the sheep, that's definitely the plan. We bought the land last year and started with the sheep this year. There are some existing trees scattered around the front pasture (which I've started using for home cidermaking), and this spring we saw the sheep going after one. Here is a photo of Butterscotch, a Border Leicester yearling, standing on her hind legs to strip the branches. So that's about the height we will need to keep clear!

[Shane Scott]

Good Day from Vancouver WA,

I caution you letting sheep amongst your trees, especially the younger trees.  We let our sheep loose in our front field to keep the grass down around the orchard.  They are St. Croix hair sheep.  They may have slightly different forage characteristics than your sheep.  I have seen them browse on woody material around our property.  I excluded the sheep from the young trees with an electric fence. Unfortunately, the fence failed and the sheep completely debarked most of the young trees in just a few hours.

We had 10 Hewes crabapple and 10 Wickson crabapple trees I planted about 4 years ago.  They were just starting to produce enough apples for a batch of cider.  We also have 6 large mature sour cherry trees in the same field.    I was able to get some apples off each of the crabapples so will have a bit of cider next year.  From everything I have read and tried, the crabapple trees are lost.  The sheep then also started eating the bark off the mature cherry trees!  I moved the sheep back to their fenced area before they could do more damage.  I am heartbroken over losing these crabapple trees.  We worked so hard on our orchard.  We have various numbers of 20 different varieties of dessert and cider apples, pears, quince and plums.  I will replant the crabapples.  And the sheep will stay in their nice fenced are away from my trees...

 

 Good luck on your orchard.  I really like following this Cider workshop group.  

Shane Scott

Salmon Creek Cider

Vancouver, WA USA

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From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Will McMahon <wmcma...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2025 6:33 AM
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Semistandard tree spacing (B.118 and MM.111)

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[Will McMahon]

Hey Shane, thanks for the head's up and really sorry to hear about the trees. That sounds terrible. We have spoken to others who have grazed sheep in orchards and definitely plan to wait until the trees are mature. So far, our sheep haven't gone for anything on mature trees except leaves on low branches, but I appreciate the cautionary tale as a reminder not to rush it and, when the time comes, to observe them closely. In the meantime, we have plenty of pasture outside of the orchard site.

Best of luck on the replanting. Sounds like a major blow, but I hope the orchard bounces back.

Thanks,

Will

[Chris Hurley]

Sorry I'm not certain of particulars here, but I remember talking to a cider maker in Brittany who switched from one breed of bark-voracious sheep to another breed that left the apple bark alone.  My poor memory tells me they switched to Shropshire, and Wikipedia seems to agree.  But I don't see a footnote citation for the following claim in that article.

" In the 1990s, Shropshires were found to be the only breed that would not nibble on conifers or bite off the bark of fruit trees, making them especially popular with Christmas tree farmers. Not only do they keep the grass short, making herbicides unnecessary, but their droppings turned out to be good manure for the saplings."

[Andrew Lea]

Research report here …

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Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

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[Jeremy Hall]

We grow Perry pears in Southern Oregon and graze Shropshire sheep in the orchard. While I haven’t seen our sheep ever eat tree bark, they love the leaves from any fruit trees. We have individually caged every tree in the orchard that we let them graze, and exclude them from our bush orchard growing on trellis. The idea is to strip the cages off in a few years after the trees get more established. We prune off all lower branches when we dormant prune. Most of the 5 year old trees would be safe from the sheep now, but the black tailed bucks use young trees to rub off their velvet in the fall  and they would destroy these trees until they caliper on the trunks get a little bigger.

Orchard is on OHxF 87 and spacing is 25’ between rows and 20’ between trees.

We have mulched nearly 100 trees with a whole fleece from the ewes and ram. At least here, Shropshire wool has little commercial value so using the wool for reducing water consumption on our drip irrigation and time excluding weeds seems like the best use of the wool. We also compost the spent pommace with manure from the barn and spread that on our bush orchard.

—Jeremy

Blossom Barn Cidery

Applegate Valley

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