Kingstone Black slow fermentation.

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HS

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Oct 20, 2022, 9:49:03 AM10/20/22
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For the first time, my Kingston Black tree has delivered a really good crop from which I have been able to press 4 gallons of juice. (4 x 1 gallon demi johns).  SG1055.  I've gone for a natural/wild fermentation   as in previous years which  worked well with other apple (mostly Bramleys) varieties. However, after two weeks there was very little sign of activity - one bubble through the airlocks every 20 to 30 seconds. SG down to 1050 and now stopped and juice beginning to fall clear. I've tried one with some aeration - no effect; one with nutrient - some little, short-lived effect; one sulphited and cultured yeast added - very prompt and quite vigorous response.
So, should I give up on the other three, sulphite them and pitch a cultured yeast.? Or is there something I've missed? should I be patient and wait and see? Is the wild yeast just too weak this time? 
Any advice would be gratefully received.

Andrew Lea

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Oct 22, 2022, 5:42:02 AM10/22/22
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This is very strange. It’s pretty unusual for a wild fermentation to drop from 1.055 to 1.050 and then stick at that point.  Usually the apiculate yeasts (the first in the succession) will be pretty busy by then. Is there anything odd about the fruit itself? You imply that the trees are quite young - such fruit normally has high nitrogen and ferments well. The yeast is obviously very stressed - did you do something odd with your fruit like washing it in a sterilising solution? How long was it stored before juicing? Did you clean the mill and press in any special way?

In practical terms, you may be best off pitching a cultured yeast if that obviously works. But it would be interesting to know why the wild yeast gave up so soon.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

On 20 Oct 2022, at 14:50, HS <h.stee...@gmail.com> wrote:

For the first time, my Kingston Black tree has delivered a really good crop from which I have been able to press 4 gallons of juice. (4 x 1 gallon demi johns).  SG1055.  I've gone for a natural/wild fermentation   as in previous years which  worked well with other apple (mostly Bramleys) varieties. However, after two weeks there was very little sign of activity - one bubble through the airlocks every 20 to 30 seconds. SG down to 1050 and now stopped and juice beginning to fall clear. I've tried one with some aeration - no effect; one with nutrient - some little, short-lived effect; one sulphited and cultured yeast added - very prompt and quite vigorous response.
So, should I give up on the other three, sulphite them and pitch a cultured yeast.? Or is there something I've missed? should I be patient and wait and see? Is the wild yeast just too weak this time? 
Any advice would be gratefully received.

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henning steenberg

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Oct 22, 2022, 8:27:26 AM10/22/22
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Thanks for your response Andrew.

In answer to your questions

The fruit was - appeared -  all very healthy, nothing obviously odd at all. The tree is about 8 years old and growing strongly with very healthy foliage. It is only the second time it has born a good crop (the first time some thief – I could have used a more descriptive phrase there! -  came in the night just before they were ready for harvesting and pinched the lot). I simply washed the fruit in a bucket with a garden hose – no use of sterilising solution, meta bisulphite etc. Half the fruit had been ‘stored’ (allowed to lie on the grass) for up to 10 days, the other half was picked from the tree as they were beginning to fall. The press and mill and all equipment were cleaned pretty thoroughly using VWP cleaner steriliser and hosed off before juicing as per my usual practice.

But now, as I type this I suddenly remember that when I quartered a lot of the apples prior to pulping I DID notice what looked like a slightly watery appearance round the core which I think may have been something called ‘watercore’ – is that right? But from what I read that should only be beneficial to the fermentation?

And interestingly, when I checked on the demijohns this morning the one to which I had added the nutrient 4/5 days ago has suddenly kicked in to life!

Any further thoughts/advice would be gratefully received

Henning

Suzanne Diesen

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Oct 29, 2022, 11:15:29 PM10/29/22
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Years ago I had a six gallon carbouy of KB but it just sat there and would not ferment.  I forgot about it and several months later was going to just chuck it.  At the last minute measured the specific gravity out of curiosity.  It turned out to have fermented somehow.  So, again, out of curiosity tasted it.  I was immediately transported to some unknown paradise.  It turned out to be the best cider I have ever tasted so now I am wanting that again.  I wonder what happened.  I think it was a very slow fermentation. No need to rack either.  So, yours might be doing the same thing.  Nowadays, I might add some more yeast or try some different tactic.  It is hard to sit still and let nature work.  You did have initial fermentation.   Good luck.
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henning steenberg

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Oct 30, 2022, 7:52:10 AM10/30/22
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Thanks for that Suzanne, that is reassuring as I didn’t really want to have to re-pitch with a cultured yeast. I’ll give it more time and keep checking the SG.

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Suzanne Diesen
Sent: 30 October 2022 03:15
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Kingstone Black slow fermentation.

 

Years ago I had a six gallon carbouy of KB but it just sat there and would not ferment.  I forgot about it and several months later was going to just chuck it.  At the last minute measured the specific gravity out of curiosity.  It turned out to have fermented somehow.  So, again, out of curiosity tasted it.  I was immediately transported to some unknown paradise.  It turned out to be the best cider I have ever tasted so now I am wanting that again.  I wonder what happened.  I think it was a very slow fermentation. No need to rack either.  So, yours might be doing the same thing.  Nowadays, I might add some more yeast or try some different tactic.  It is hard to sit still and let nature work.  You did have initial fermentation.   Good luck.

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Andrew Lea

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Oct 30, 2022, 9:09:52 AM10/30/22
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Is it still stuck at 1.050? What happened to the ones you added cultured yeast and/or  nutrient to? Did they proceed to dryness normally? 

You mentioned previously about “watercore”. This leads to an excess of sorbitol which is unfermentable, but tbh the idea that all that SG is sorbitol is very unlikely. Perhaps some other yeast inhibitor has been created? I never heard of that before.  

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

On 30 Oct 2022, at 11:53, henning steenberg <h.stee...@gmail.com> wrote:



henning steenberg

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Oct 30, 2022, 10:22:11 AM10/30/22
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Two that I have left alone are still just ticking over - one bubble every 45 seconds or so.  Very  slow. Haven’t taken the SG again yet. If it follows Suzanne’s fermentation I could be in for a long wait but it may be worth it! The one I added nutrient to went off slowly but is now bubbling away nicely. The other I sulphited, waited 36 hours and re-pitched with a cultured yeast. No  nutrient added - went off like a rocket and is still going strong.

Re water core, there weren’t that many of the apples that showed it and it was mostly restricted to the area around the core , not widespread through the main body of the flesh. So it would seem that you are almost certainly right about that not being the inhibitor.

Is there anything else that could inhibit the yeast?

I do seem to recall reading somewhere that apples that make good single varietal cider are known to be slow fermenters

Thanks for the follow-up. I’ll keep you posted on how they all turn out.

Andrew Lea

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Oct 30, 2022, 12:56:16 PM10/30/22
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Unless you have a current SG measurement I don’t think bubbles per unit time are very useful. Previously you said the fermentation had stopped, but obviously things are not quite so bad as you thought.

It sounds as if you are quite low in nutrients. Different types of apple do indeed take up different levels of nutrient from the soil and most of the traditional UK cider varieties are low nitrogen uptake and hence typically quite slow in fermenting. The other thing they often lack is thiamin (vitamin B1). This is required by the yeast for alcohol synthesis - some yeasts can make their own but some can’t. Maybe your wild Saccharomyces cannot do this which is maybe why the fermentation slowed down after the initial apiculate burst (just guessing here!)?

The fact that nutrients and/or cultured yeast can produce a speedier fermentation would seem to indicate there’s nothing fundamentally wrong.

I suggest you measure the SG again and then if you decide you really want to go a bit faster,  look at adding thiamin. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

On 30 Oct 2022, at 14:23, henning steenberg <h.stee...@gmail.com> wrote:



henning steenberg

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Oct 30, 2022, 2:37:58 PM10/30/22
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Thanks again Andrew – I’ll take new readings tomorrow. I did think it had stopped completely but clearly not, there was obviously something still going on/some life still there.

henning steenberg

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Nov 1, 2022, 7:50:33 AM11/1/22
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As promised, I have now taken new readings from three of the four demijohns (didn’t see the point with the forth  - the one sulphited and pitched with cultured yeast - as it is still bubbling away vigorously).

The dj with the aerated juice showing little obvious activity now down to 1040 so clearly something happening still.

The dj  with just nutrient added (which then seemed to start but then slowed to a point where it almost appeared to have stopped), still very slow but now down to 1022.

The dj with no intervention at all still looks to be almost inactive but it too is down to 1040.

Any further thoughts? Should Igo for the addition of Thiamin or hold off for a little longer to see what happens?

Thanks

Henning

Andrew Lea

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Nov 1, 2022, 11:15:34 AM11/1/22
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Good to have that data. Seems to me that your slowest wild fermentation has dropped from SG 1.055 to 1.040 in around a month? That seems slow but quite acceptable. I would normally expect a low nutrient wild fermentation to take through until the spring to be complete (allowing for a spell of colder weather).  If I were you I would check the SG again after another month and see where you are then.  

At that stage you could think about adding thiamin if you wish, but to be honest you may want to take advantage of this slow fermentation and rack it a couple of times to get a naturally sweet and very traditional cider. Well worth doing with Kingston Black IMHO. See the extract from my book below:

Traditionally, naturally sweet ciders were made from slow fermentations which were poor in nutrients. Such fermentations were not uncommon in the days when most cider fruit came from big old trees with low nutrient status. Those orchards were never fertilized and often had livestock running in them during the summer. As the animals grew they absorbed the nutrients from the grass and took them when they left, leaving none for the trees. 

Modern fruit from dedicated bush orchards has much higher nutrient status and so is generally unsuitable for making naturally sweet ciders. It is also worth noting that most ‘vintage’ cider apple varieties take up less nitrogen from the soil in any case, and therefore can be inherently slow fermenters if grown in orchards which have very little fertilizer input. So if you have an old orchard of your own, or your orchard is low in nutrients because of the trees you grow and the way you manage it, then you may be able to make naturally sweet ciders in the old way. This is also more likely to be successful if you use wild yeast fermentation rather than adding a vigorous cultured yeast. Juices which are fermenting inherently slowly and which show an SG loss of less than one degree per day are suitable for this treatment.

 How to make it

The cider is racked initially into a new clean tank when it reaches SG 1.020, leaving most of the yeast behind. The airlock is re-fitted. The continued fermentation will then become even slower and the sweet cider is racked again (and preferably filtered) at SG 1.015–1.012 for a medium sweet cider. After this racking it is worth waiting several weeks (under an airlock) to ensure that no further fermentation takes place, before sealing the vat or bottling off. 

Where bottles are used, they should preferably be of the champagne type in case any re-fermentation does take place. If all that sugar were to re-ferment you would be over the safe limit for a ‘bottle bomb’. The factors that generally limit yeast growth are the lack of nutrients and the build-up of CO2 in a closed bottle (since excess CO2, although produced by the yeast, is also toxic to it to a certain extent). 

It is wise to make a test bottling after the second racking and lay the bottle down in a closed box for three weeks in a warm place (25°C). Then, wearing gloves and goggles, open the bottle and assess the level of carbonation. If it is obviously excessive, leave the bulk for a fortnight longer and re-test before doing the final bottling. If the carbonation is nil to slight, it will be safe to bottle the bulk. Either way, the bottles should be stored cool and in a place where they would cause no damage or injury should the worst happen. A carbonated drink at 30°C contains up to twice the internal pressure of one at 15°C as the gas is driven out of solution by the heat. It is best to choose days on which the temperature is low and the barometric pressure is high for the racking and bottling operations, since this will help to keep suspended yeast to a minimum and will retain the maximum amount of dissolved carbon dioxide in the cider. 

The success of the whole process depends on reducing both yeast and nutrient levels to a minimum so that re-fermentation of the remaining sugar is unlikely to take place. Sweet ciders of this sort may have a slight ‘prickle’ to them, particularly in bottle, since a very slow fermentation may continue to generate carbon dioxide until the increased CO2 level itself intoxicates the remaining already stressed yeast. 

Naturally sweet 

The procedure described is ideal for single-variety demonstration ciders or for those which need no further blending – the flavour tends to be ‘fruitier’ since the sweetness is derived from unfermented juice rather than from added sugar. The alcohol level in the cider is of course less than if it had been fermented to dryness because only a part of the sugar has been converted. 

It is abundantly clear from descriptions in the literature that many (perhaps most) bottled ciders were made in this way for several hundred years until the early twentieth century, and even as late as the 1960s in some cases, and were naturally sweet and sometimes slightly sparkling to some degree. These have almost entirely disappeared from memory in a couple of generations, in part due to the ‘law of unintended consequences’ following changes in apple orcharding practice and hence higher nutrient levels in the juice and cider. In addition, perceived customer demand for a totally consistent retail product led the large cider producers to embrace added sweetening, forced carbonation and pasteurization techniques from the early years of the twentieth century onwards.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

On 1 Nov 2022, at 11:51, henning steenberg <h.stee...@gmail.com> wrote:



henning steenberg

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Nov 1, 2022, 11:41:14 AM11/1/22
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I knew I had read somewhere about vintage apples being slow to ferment – just couldn’t remember where.

Thanks again for the advice – I’ll do as you suggest and be patient and rack at least two of them a couple of times. Whatever the eventual results, they should be interesting!  

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