New cider maker

[john pantling]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the heads up. As someone new to this process I am formulating a procedure. Beer making is so different in that the ingredients are as it were ready to go, cider the ingredients are the apples which need made into juice. I worked in biochemical science so I understand a bit about the process. I have come to the conclusion that my cider making will be phase in that pulp production day one juice extraction day two and then day three pitching the yeast starter. I only have a small 30L screw press so juice extraction takes time so I reckon on devoting a day to just pressing... but it is not a race . I take you point re the dryness of the cider. I will have to make some first to taste this first hand although on thought that came to mind for sweetening could be adding a little unfermented apple juice to the cider when pouring to drink? I will let you know how things progress.

Best regards

[Duncan Hewitt]

I can see the logic but I'm not sure how well it would go leaving the pomice a day before pressing will go in actuality. I've never done it as you'd need a fair bit of space for the pomice to sit in if you're scratting for the entirety of that day, and then there's the problem of insects which will love the open fruit, and I can imagine that some some varieties could turn mushy quite quickly once scratted, which would make pressing harder. Then there's also the issue of oxidisation in the open air with that much surface space, as opposed to being in the fermenter with just the liquid surface area.

When I used a smaller screw press, I would scrat enough pomice to fill the press, then whilst the press is doing its job, be busy scratting more. It might be better to spend two days on this process rather than a day each on both.

I'm sure someone with more scientific knowledge will chip in and advise 😁

Cheers,

Duncan

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[john pantling]

Not sure that leaving the pulp in a sealed container would be a problem over night... I actually stole that idea from another cider making site called the science of cider making where the author suggested this as a way of reducing pectin and aiding pressing by introducing pectinase at this early stage rather than during or after fermentation when alcohol may inhibit the pectinase activity. I liked the idea because it make the process a two day job prior to adding the yeast starter of course never having done it I have no idea how it will all work out.

regards

John

[Andrew Lea]

If you are using pectic enzyme on pulp, then leaving it overnight gives it time to do its stuff. This procedure will reduce the mushiness, not increase it. Oxidation occurs mostly at top layer of the pulp and insects are not generally a practical problem. If they get squashed, they get squashed! In traditional cider making from bittersweet fruit, pulp is often macerated overnight before pressing. Because this is dessert fruit, the use of  a pectic enzyme and incubation overnight gives added value. 

Andrew

——————————

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 14 Aug 2021, at 07:47, Duncan Hewitt <dun...@merrybower.co.uk> wrote:



I can see the logic but I'm not sure how well it would go leaving the pomice a day before pressing will go in actuality. I've never done it as you'd need a fair bit of space for the pomice to sit in if you're scratting for the entirety of that day, and then there's the problem of insects which will love the open fruit, and I can imagine that some some varieties could turn mushy quite quickly once scratted, which would make pressing harder. Then there's also the issue of oxidisation in the open air with that much surface space, as opposed to being in the fermenter with just the liquid surface area.

When I used a smaller screw press, I would scrat enough pomice to fill the press, then whilst the press is doing its job, be busy scratting more. It might be better to spend two days on this process rather than a day each on both.

I'm sure someone with more scientific knowledge will chip in and advise 😁

Cheers,

Duncan

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On 14 Aug 2021, at 07:37, john pantling <jwp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the heads up. As someone new to this process I am formulating a procedure. Beer making is so different in that the ingredients are as it were ready to go, cider the ingredients are the apples which need made into juice. I worked in biochemical science so I understand a bit about the process. I have come to the conclusion that my cider making will be phase in that pulp production day one juice extraction day two and then day three pitching the yeast starter. I only have a small 30L screw press so juice extraction takes time so I reckon on devoting a day to just pressing... but it is not a race . I take you point re the dryness of the cider. I will have to make some first to taste this first hand although on thought that came to mind for sweetening could be adding a little unfermented apple juice to the cider when pouring to drink? I will let you know how things progress.

Best regards

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[Andrew Lea]

John, yes you really need to see cidermaking as a form of wine making, not beer brewing.

Normally when people make cider from dessert apples in Northern Europe their major problem is too much acidity, which manifests as excessive dryness. As you say, the easiest way to offset that is to sweeten just before drinking.  Another thing sometimes recommended is to use a yeast such as Lalvin 71B which metabolises some of the malic acid during fermentation.  There are many other approaches too.

In southern Europe though, the likelihood is that you will get less acid in the fruit than in more northerly climes.  So the problem may not be so acute for you.  As far as yeast selection goes, there is actually no such thing as a commercial cider yeast AFAIK. They are all re-purposed yeasts from the wine industry (and often their provenance is deliberately left unclear I’m afraid). There is quite a range of behaviour amongst these when used for cidermaking. I would avoid any type of champagne or Pris de Mousse type of yeast, because they often produce very dry results (not so much lack of residual sugar as lack of yeast generated polysaccharides and polyols I think). A very good wine yeast for dessert apples is Lalvin QA23 which is fruity and does not seem to confer the excess dryness of say EC1118.  QA23 is now widely used in countries such as Australia where dessert apples are usually the norm for cider making.

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 14 Aug 2021, at 07:36, john pantling <jwp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the heads up. As someone new to this process I am formulating a procedure. Beer making is so different in that the ingredients are as it were ready to go, cider the ingredients are the apples which need made into juice. I worked in biochemical science so I understand a bit about the process. I have come to the conclusion that my cider making will be phase in that pulp production day one juice extraction day two and then day three pitching the yeast starter. I only have a small 30L screw press so juice extraction takes time so I reckon on devoting a day to just pressing... but it is not a race . I take you point re the dryness of the cider. I will have to make some first to taste this first hand although on thought that came to mind for sweetening could be adding a little unfermented apple juice to the cider when pouring to drink? I will let you know how things progress.

Best regards

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[john pantling]

Hi Andrew

I used to make a lot of wine many years ago and some of them were similar in process to cider making in as much as as pulp was made and the flavour extracted from it while fermenting on the pulp for a few days and then straining to ferment out. So I am essentially following a pulp making and pectinase treatment then pressing the juice. What ever happens it will be a great learning experience, a bit of fun and hopefully with some drinkable cider at the end . Still a while until the apples are ready but I have been collecting some windfalls and have made 8L of juice which I will ferment out and see what it is like. Apples normally start to ripen up around early September here but we have had a poor summer so I think they could be later this year. I have a workshop with a water supply so that will be where I do my stuff. I do not know if you are familiar with the cheap screw presses off Amazon ? I bought one of those a 30L version my only concern is how much torque I can apply to the thing without causing damage. The rod itself is robust enough but it is threaded through the juice collecting plate then held by a large nut I would not want to over stress it but want to maximise juice production. I could have bought some old purpose built presses at very good prices but they we a long way off and also rather large. Another thing I thought about was the wisdom of making layers of apple pulp rather than just one the full depth of the press cage, it is quite deep at 50cm I have made up another set of discs out of some oak plank I had handy and could make another set. I don't know why but I thought this may improve pressing the pulp?

best regards

John

[Andrew Lea]

The mill is at least as important as the press.  Many hobbyists here now use Speidel mills and hydropresses but they are not cheap. https://www.vigopresses.co.uk/Catalogue/Crusher-and-Press-Combos/Speidel-Mill-and-40ltr-Stainless-Steel-Hydropress-Combo-89158  I have no direct experience of the Amazon presses but often they get rather negative reviews. 

You certainly can and should layer the apple pulp in a large basket press. I understand this does increase yield (and have seen it done commercially for apples in a wine press in Australia). It is not efficient to press  a large bulk of pulp - hence the traditional layered pack press design. Not sure how much more efficient it is in a relatively small press. Claude’s book may say more. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 14 Aug 2021, at 10:57, john pantling <jwp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Andrew

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/14fcabf1-cc59-4208-80e8-f66d94f2f2dbn%40googlegroups.com.

[Duncan Hewitt]

Thanks for that explanation Andrew, fascinating that pectic enzyme has that affect on pulp! Still using no additives at any stage of the process I guess I'm just paranoid about time from apple to fermenter 😁

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[john pantling]

To be fair Andrew I have no doubt that scratter /press set up would do a great job but to be honest I am just looking for a bit of fun making cider from the apples from my garden so expenditure like that is not on my mind at all thus I bought a very modest combo. Even if what I do eventually make turns out to be good I doubt I would change because I will only ever make for my own consumption from the apples the garden will provide . This year the tees are laden with fruit so I thought I would have a bit of fun total outlay less than €300 is my idea of fun :)  And as said if the stuff turns out to be drinkable I will have another go next year. I really doubt I will ever be a cider head  but I am sure it will be a laugh :) We have been drinking very nice French cider this evening and I warned the wife ... don't expect my stuff to turn out like this!

[Andrew Lea]

Probably you know this already but traditional Norman and Breton cider is made in a totally different way from what you propose see here http://www.cider.org.uk/comment_faire_du_bon_cidre.pdf

Nowadays it’s all done with added enzymes, nitrogen flotation, chilled tanks etc but the principle remains the same. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 14 Aug 2021, at 19:51, john pantling <jwp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

To be fair Andrew I have no doubt that scratter /press set up would do a great job but to be honest I am just looking for a bit of fun making cider from the apples from my garden so expenditure like that is not on my mind at all thus I bought a very modest combo. Even if what I do eventually make turns out to be good I doubt I would change because I will only ever make for my own consumption from the apples the garden will provide . This year the tees are laden with fruit so I thought I would have a bit of fun total outlay less than €300 is my idea of fun :)  And as said if the stuff turns out to be drinkable I will have another go next year. I really doubt I will ever be a cider head  but I am sure it will be a laugh :) We have been drinking very nice French cider this evening and I warned the wife ... don't expect my stuff to turn out like this!

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/d990d958-5a32-4d64-b138-b6aa787e9fa8n%40googlegroups.com.

[john pantling]

Hi Andrew

 Thanks for the info I did know it was different to the traditional English cider way but it would not be the French if they did not have a better way in their eyes anyway. My French is not brilliant but I will have a look through that. 

Update on my scratter and press. I had a load of mixed windfall apples so thought I would give them a run out. I weighed the apples to get an idea of what percentage I am getting back.   I had 28 kg of apples which after pressing delivered 16 L of juice so about  57%  w/w with a gravity og 1.048  . If we assume apples are about 85% juice the press is returning about 65% efficiency ... not too bad?    The apples I used are not as good as those still on the trees so I am hopeful that I may do better than this initial attempt time will tell. The press needs about 20Kg of apples to fill it so I need about 55kg of apples for  one 30L fermentation which is the volume of my vat leaving  2L head space.

So I have 16L of juice og 1.048 can I ferment that juice or do I need to add some sugar syrup to increase the gravity ? I don't see the point in wasting it be good to see how it turns out :) 

cheers

John

[Andrew Lea]

S.G. 1.048 is fine. No point in increasing the gravity if it’s just a windfall test batch.

You may find you get slightly better yields and higher SG on mature fruit. Also the flavour will be better. Don’t be in a hurry to press them. If you can still get tincture of iodine in France, it would be worth doing a starch test http://www.cider.org.uk/iodine_test.html

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 15 Aug 2021, at 15:31, john pantling <jwp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Andrew

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[john pantling]

Good, I sulphited the juice at about 50ppm SO2 so I will let it sit overnight.  I will get some yeast starter going and add it late tomorrow afternoon should be going well by then . If the apples ripen at the usual rate mid Sept / early Oct then I should have this drop fermented out by then give me a chance to see what has happened, if it went well or there was a problem.

John