US First Time Keever, Sourcing True PME Domestically

[Marco Cattani]

First-time keever here in the US, small batch (~1–1.5 gal juice from windfall/dooryard apples). Struggling to source true PME domestically — hoping someone might have a small amount of Vigo/Klercidre/Rapidase PME they'd be willing to sell or trade a small quantity of, since the retail kits are sized for hundreds of liters. Happy to cover shipping + cost.  

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Honestly, with the quantity you mention, there is no point in trying keeving.

You need a some volume and some height for the keeve to be successful. I'd say 5 gallons would be a minimum.

[Marco Cattani]

Makes sense; I would size up then if need be. I just want to make a cider that closely resembles French farmhouse-style (Domaine Dupont). Do you have any recommendations?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

That is a pretty ambitious goal for a first trial.

You need the same apples as they have for that!!! Not so easy.

[Marco Cattani]

Haha, I know, but I'm an ambitious person. Here in Tennessee, it's hard/rare to find anything with that style. If I fail 3000 times but can produce something reasonable, I can drink and reminisce about the time I walked through their orchard, eating apples off the ground. I will be a happy man. So anything helps. 

[CGJ]

Hi Marco,

Since it's such a small quantity, how about cold crashing it a couple of
times in the refrigerator? I just did this with a one gallon test batch
with good quality supermarket apple juice (Martinelli's, supposedly just
pasteurized Newtown Pippin) and Cotes de Blanc yeast, and the stable
product finished up at 4.4% ABV and 3.4% residual sugar. Certainly not a
true keeve, but it does get you to about the same place in terms of
final alcohol and sugar content. Just a thought.

Carl Johnson
West Barnstable
Massachusetts

[Jonathan Miner]

Hi Marco, 

About 5 years ago, I started a journey similar to the one you are on. Keeving is fun (but hard and unpredictable!) and I wish you all the best with it. Based on my experience, my very strong recommendation would be that you start out your first year or two by doing some frequent cold crashing and racking to approximate the lower ABV end-result that you get from Keeving.  

I have searched and searched for PME in the US and came up empty. The place I've ended up sourcing it for the past few years is from source in Quebec that Claude connected me to. Chantal at 
La Fabrique du Vin (http://www.fabriqueduvin.com/). She sells a Keeving kit with the PME and calcium chloride solution. In past years, it's only available in the early fall, so you won't be able to get it now. Chantal is wonderful, but she only speaks French, so you will need to do some translating and also navigate our stupid new US tariffs to get it here. Chantal ships kits that are scaled to hobby producers (e.g., 100 liters). Here's the product listing: https://boutique.fabriqueduvin.com/boutique/fr/kit-pour-la-gelification-des-pectines-keeving-avec-de-la-pectine-methylesterase-pme-p659/

Hope that helps a bit. 

Jonathan

[Marco Cattani]

Hey this is incredible! I keep hearing about cold crashing, do you have a reference on how to do so? I talked with the owners of a local cidery in Atlanta and found out they cold crash as well. But can never find something dirext to reference. I know Claude recommended literature so if that's the place to go, already on it. Just don't know if you've done something else with good results. 

This is awesome though, thank!!

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

With the quantities you were mentioning (1 to 1.5 gal), this is very easy to do - simply leave your cider in the fridg for a few days and rack. Doing that a couple of times will kill your fermentation and leave a cider with residual sweetness.

[CGJ]

Marco,

There is no reference that I've seen beyond what you've mentioned, and
what's on the workshop here. The biggest thing if you're trying this is
to choose your yeast wisely, keep notes, and rack at the right points
("ay, there's the rub"). It make take a couple of trials to get it
right, but my experience is that each cold crash racking drops the
fermentation speed by about a factor of 3 to 10 (higher values in the
earlier rackings).

Regarding commercial yeast,  White Labs WLP720, Wyeast 4766 and Red Star
Premier Cote de Blancs are all susceptible to 0C cold crash in terms of
slowing the fermentation; Wyeast 4783 (Rudesheimer) does NOT cold crash
well but keeps going even at low temperature (sub 0C). However, 720
tends to not settle well, and both 720 and 4766 impart a fair amount of
floral character. Cote de Blancs seemed to crash and settle reasonably
well, and seems to have the lightest fingerprint in terms of taste (that
was the purpose of my latest tests, as my tastes mature I want to start
tasting more of the apple and less of the yeast, but still want to be
able to do a cold crash for a medium sweet finish). All of these yeast
will go pretty fast even with temperatures in mid-teens, so if you can
keep the temperature around 10 - 12 C you may have a bit more luck
controlling things.

The rest of this is probably way too much info here for most, but this
is the closest I can come to giving you a reference.

With my recent Cote de Blancs test, SG went from 1.050 (start) to 1.027
in 3 days at 18C. (1/2 packet of yeast [too much!] hydrated in a perhaps
100ml of juice at 37C, in 20 minutes or so bubbles appeared on the
surface. There was an audible hiss from the bubbling. I added that
active mix to the bulk juice and put an airlock on it.) At 1.027, I
moved the jug to a 0C refrigerator. In a day, the speed (determined by
timing the bubbles in the airlock) had dropped about 10x, but it took
about 10 days for the yeast to settle out, at which time the SG was
1.022. I racked cold, and brought the volume up with a bit (500 ml?) of
the same raw juice. Over the next 17 days at 18C, SG dropped to 1.016,
when I crashed and racked again, made up with a bit more raw juice.
Fermentation never really picked up much, and a month later, I had a
clear product showing no bubbling in the airlock, and SG of 1.016
(again). It seems like I've hit a steady state.

(Note, except at start and end, I've been measuring SG right in the
fermentation jug  so that I don't consume my limited amount, thus all
measurements are rather crude.)

Obviously, your situation may be different depending on nutrient
concentrations in the juice, and wild yeast will be a completely
different situation. The big thing is to make sure you watch it like a
hawk on a daily basis between adding yeast and your first racking and
don't let it get too far along if you want an eventual sweet finish.


Good luck,
Carl Johnson
West Barnstable,
Massachusetts