French cider apple varieties for colder climate

[Māris Plūme]

As I couldn't find this kind of discussion before, here are my questions to cider apple growers (especially from Europe) with experience.

I am from Latvia and I already test some english cider varieties in my orchard. Dabinett for example seems to be doing alright here - it gets some frost damage but survives and heels it with ease. It blossoms in the end of May or in the beginning of June and I harvested it in first week of November. Fruit seemed to be ripe although i didn't do starch test (haven't tried it yet) but the sugar level seemed to be alright - 13,5 Brix, as all the varieties are low in sugar this year. Last year I harvested 2 weeks earlier and brix was 14,5.

Because of this 'success' (Maybe still to early to assume so) with at least one english cider variety I 'd like to try also some of best French cider varieties. Should I go for Kermerrien and Deuce Moen? Advice on variety choice would be highly appreciated keeping in mind that growing season here is not very long and winters happen to be harsh. -25 C happen almost every winter. And where to ask for scion wood?

And yes, I'm searching for locally born bittersweet seedlings already, so also this track is on its way already.

Cheers to every real cider producer!

Māris Plūme

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 23 novembre 2017 14:26:19 UTC-5, Māris Plūme a écrit :

Because of this 'success' (Maybe still to early to assume so) with at least one english cider variety I 'd like to try also some of best French cider varieties. Should I go for Kermerrien and Deuce Moen? Advice on variety choice would be highly appreciated keeping in mind that growing season here is not very long and winters happen to be harsh. -25 C happen almost every winter. And where to ask for scion wood?

Hello Māris
Yes, I guess you could try Kermerrien - here it is fruiting and the quality is good. It is still too early to know if it will be productive.
Muscadet de Dieppe is quite hardy here, produces good quality fruit, but the productivity is low. Same with Reine des pommes.
Marechal is one that is promising, hardy, ripens well and looks like it will be productive, but alternating production.
Claude

[Māris Plūme]

Hello Claude,

Thanks for a suggestion. Do you have any idea whoom I should ask for scionwood? Anyone at this side of the big river?

[Wes Cherry]

I’d skip marachel and kermerrian.   Both have really boring flavor.   Moderate tannins, but not even close to “vintage” quality, no aroma.   I pass on buying them even with bittersweets still as rare as hens teeth around here.

Muscat de dieppe, frequin rouge, Bedan, muscat de berney, medaille d’or (in moderation) would be my choices.   I am in a marine climate similar to Nw France.  These may not be suitable for cold.     Nehou is another option.  Early and decent fruit.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 23 novembre 2017 17:30:01 UTC-5, Wes Cherry a écrit :

I’d skip marachel and kermerrian.   Both have really boring flavor.   Moderate tannins, but not even close to “vintage” quality, no aroma.   I pass on buying them even with bittersweets still as rare as hens teeth around here.

Muscat de dieppe, frequin rouge, Bedan, muscat de berney, medaille d’or (in moderation) would be my choices.   I am in a marine climate similar to Nw France.  These may not be suitable for cold.     Nehou is another option.  Early and decent fruit.

Wes, the thing is that in hard climates like where Māris and I live, we can't afford to be too picky...

If a decent bittersweet apple does survive and crop, we'll take it.

As of Kermerrien, I would suspect its lack of flavor for you is related to your location/climate/soil - or maybe the grower. I say that because it is one of the most popular varieties in Brittany, where there are masses of excellent varieties - if it had boring flavor over there, it certainly would not be so popular.

Māris, can you order from a nursery in France? Would they ship to Latvia? I am sure with Google you could easily find a nursery that has a good selection of cider apples.

Claude

[CiderSupply.com]

I have noticed that our Kermerrians did have a blandish flavor as fresh juice, and after a normal ferment. However, it is an easy and regular Keever with a much different flavor profile when keeved. I suspect that this is the main reason it has been popular in NW France over the centuries. However with that said, it is very important to make certain to give it a long and late sweating period.

Best regards
Chris Rylands

[Māris Plūme]

Extremly interesting discussion here. I encourage even more people to give their opinnions on french apple varieties. I think we all could benefit from this kind of opinnion sharing.
At the moment i feel like i should graft Kermerrien and Nehou. Claude, have you tried growing Nehou?
Does anyone have an opinnion on Deuce Moen?

Cheers!
Māris

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 27 novembre 2017 03:29:10 UTC-5, Māris Plūme a écrit :

Extremly interesting discussion here. I encourage even more people to give their opinnions on french apple varieties. I think we all could benefit from this kind of opinnion sharing.
At the moment i feel like i should graft Kermerrien and Nehou. Claude, have you tried growing Nehou?

No. And I haven't seen it in France. I think it is one of those varieties that originated in France but lost popularity in that country, but was also imported in England and found a new home there. Michelin is another French one that is now virtually unknown in France while popular in England.
 

Does anyone have an opinnion on Deuce Moen?

Douce Moen (not Deuce). Great in France, and the most planted variety in that country.
Claude

[Nick Bradstock]

My (albeit small) experience of Nehou and Michelin in the southern and midland cider making counties of the UK is that both varieties were introduced in relatively large numbers from French sources in the early 70s when the UK cider makers invested large sums in planting new bush orchards of bitter sweet and bitter sharp apples to replace senescent orchards.

At that time, the pressure was to find sufficient supply of young cider apple trees to plant the areas planned.  This led perhaps to an oversupply of Nehou and Michelin, which, for all their repute in France, are, I think I can say, generally a disappointment here.  Generally speaking, our winter climate cannot be described as cold but rather as wet with the occasional frost.

This may perhaps be more noticeable south of the River Severn where the climate tends generally to be wetter than say in Herefordshire.

Both may be prolific varieties but the fruit of Nehou are very ‘tender’ in that they bruise, crush and then rot very easily. They also tend to a lower gravity than other varieties.

I cannot comment on Michelin but my experience of Nehou in Somerset was confirmed in this year’s irregular season when the fruit of 2 trees, admittedly picked late, could almost be seen to turn to slop as they were carried to the press on 6^th/7^th Nov.  The juice was something of a disappointment compared to the Dabinets pressed at the same time;  the Dabinets gave excellent juice ranging from 1054 to 1059 gravity while the Nehou achieved only 1044.

 

Nick

--

[CiderSupply.com]

hi Nick, here in the northern part Coastal area of the Pacific Northwest Washington State I have had great luck with Nehou. The second year in a row at least for the Brix level we have gotten a very nice blending juice that has a bricks of 17.6

Michelin we have not gotten the fruit yet, but based on the buds, it's looking like 2018 will be the first year for those.

Best regards,
Chris Rylands

[Tom Bugs]

I would guess (very much noting the few years of experience under my belt) that the wide planting of certain types of apples may be due more to agricultural demands than quality of flavour, and then that popularity view permeates through sheer scale. I'd certainly picked up that Michelin (and Norman) were bulkers, perfect for reliably giving good yields, but of not so much taste interest to small scale producers. Yield being of utmost importance both to the farmers who are/were doing the plantings and the producers who were driving the plantings - saying this as my folks have a 5acre orchard mainly replanted in the 70s for Bulmers with Michelin, Norman, Yarlington Mill and Dabinett.
This discussion group certainly shines fascinating lights about the regional and international variances, both in terms of trees and techniques - really appreciated even if I can't add much.

[Andrew Lea]

Like Nick, I also have experience of Nehou in SW England in the 1970s and agree with what he said. I would never give it any house room. It crops far too early, bruises browns and rots far too readily, has a stonkingly high pH but in its cropping season there’s almost nothing else to blend it with. Store it and it becomes almost unmillable - as Nick says, just a brown slop.  Yes it has high tannin, but not subtle, and its other disadvantages rule it right out. Notably it was omitted from the last Long Ashton recommendations in 1985. 

Of course it may perform differently elsewhere, but it’s certainly not a good one here. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Nick Bradstock]

Chris
That's such a marked difference!
From memory / rule of thumb (a 10%ww sucrose solution in water is 10 Brix and gives a gravity of 1036, all other things being equal), I think a Brix level of 17.6 would be 1063 gravity. A very marked difference to Nehou's performance in the UK - I would suggest usually 1050 max.
I wonder if it might be down to different strains of Nehou, and we in the UK should be planting your strain!
The comments I have heard here about Michelin is just that there are too many of them! Others in the UK would be better able to put forward reasons for that....
Best wishes
Nick

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[Nick Bradstock]

Andrew

Thanks for your corroboration!

Nick

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[Wes Cherry]

It might very well be yet another variety that is different here in the states. Trees came from Cummins.

It is a fragile mild bittersweet, but it’s not early for me. Early side of mid season though. Strongly biennial with huge alternating crops. Large vigorous bushy tree. It dropped a lot of fruit early, which was so uninteresting I wasn’t going to bother picking up. A few weeks on the ground and it sweetened up nicely without too much deterioration.

Sg 1.058, TA 3.0, pH 4.10

I blended it with early highly acidic crabs.

The cider isn’t fantastic, but no early apple really makes a great cider, except maybe Major which is just ok.

-'//es Cherry
Dragon's Head Cider
Vashon Island, Wa US
www.dragonsheadcider.com

[Ross Johnston]

What have been your best producing /easiest to grow varieties Chris?

[Chris R.]

Hi Maris, you are exactly correct Kermerrian has a bland flavor on the fresh side of things...like many bittersweets. Lots of things happen as you well know during fermentation, and i think that that is what changes my ciders to ones with old-world cider flavors. I have found that Kermerrian a great base juice has always keeved for me using PME and CaCl2. Sweating is critical for a good keeved cider to raise the SG and concentrate flavors further. I always push the sweating of the apples until about 10% start to go rotten. Then I sort out the bad ones and grind the rest and proceed with normal keeving process. Another note, I don't worry about losing juice volume, because lots of the volume is water. I think this is where many keevers reduce their chances, too much water = less chance of keeve. Sometimes the juice i get is probably 1/2 to 2/3 of what i would have gotten if i pressed right off of the tree. The juice viscosity also is much higher than that of fresh pressed. I don't press when the juice reaches a certain level of viscosity, but rather only press when the 10-15% rot rate has been reached. Ambient conditions largely set this timing. Also when sweating the apples it is important to pay close attention to get ready to jump the gun and press before they go mealy. But most French and English cider apples have been bread to be fibiourious and not go mealy when sweating. If anything they would turn to 'apple raisins' instead. When Kermerrian is done keeving and the cider is finished fermenting, I then will add blend in a bit of tannic or acidic juice to make final adjustments for desired flavor profile and stability.

I use wild yeast but the keeved ciders still vary from year to year for the same apples. I always push growers to have a full selection of cultivars based on having these 5 attributes () Bittersweet, Bittersharp, Sharp, Dessert, and Pure Sweet) rather than being fixed on particular cultivars only. Ultimately for me having different juices for blending is key. 

i hope this helps.

Chris Rylands

Renaissance Orchards

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[CiderSupply.com]

Hi Ross, boy that's a tough one here in the north coast PNW. Throw an apple tree in the ground sideways and it will grow here. I am currently growing about 280 different cider apple cultivars in three orchards. I have tried most on difference rootstocks in small block trials and all grow well and are easy to grow. If you are here in the PNW you can grow them all like in Northern France and Southern England. Where are u located?

[Ross Johnston]

I am just outside Seattle but thinking about moving to whidbey Island. It would probably be for a larger backyard orchard with the hopes of little to no spray.

[CiderSupply.com]

I highly suggest looking and evaluating areas that you are interested in for the entrenchment of apple Anthracnose. The Puget Sound and BC islands are known for severe Anthracnose. There are pockets of anthracnose free areas. All along the west cascades so check for local Orchards and the condition of local apple trees.

You dont want to have to fight Anthracnose.

[CiderSupply.com]

Other than that, with good sun and Deer and vole control, you will be able to grow any apple tree. My strategy has always Learn how to graft and over plant Like crazy only about 24" apart in rows then stin like green onions as time goes on no spraying required. Would also advise planting vigorous rootstocks that deeply anchor in the soil for them there storms here in the Pacific coast

[Karen Brindle]

This is a bit of thread drift, but a comment on Anthracnose. We started with raw forest land to plant our orchard on the Olympic Peninsula. We have been very careful to not bring this nasty disease in, but guess what? It is entrenched in the surrounding forest. I have seen vine maples severely infected deep on the woods, miles away from any development or other apple trees. It's something we all struggle with, but since apple trees grow so vigorously here, I would not let that discourage Ross from planting. 

[Les Price]

I don't know if we can count on there being any pockets of Anthracnose free areas for any measurable amount of time. After battling the demon since the first invasion, 2005, I have concluded the best defense is growing varieties it doesn't like. Of my 3 blocks, 2 are organic and have varieties that are at least scab resistant to immune. 1 of these is the cider block. The 2 blocks have never gotten established Anthracnose in them. Once I transplanted several Akane into one of the blocks, the organic u pick block from the main u pick block, to consolidate but I didn't do a good enough job of making sure they were Anthracnose free and a couple years later I had a problem area. Anyway out they all came. I think the Cider block is clean mostly from the genetic backgrounds of the heritage varieties, most of them anyway. According to the experts, the 2 major species of Anthracnose we deal with here in the PNW really focus on trees with genetic ties to Cox Orange Pippin and Yellow Delicious. The third block, my u pick block still has around 150 varieties in it and it seems the closer the link is to Cox, the more vulnerable to Anthracnose the variety is. I have resorted to removing several fantastic varieties due to their susceptibility. The Yellow D. connection is bad but not as severe as the Cox.

[Niklas]

Hi

It's not a French variety, but the English Dabinett has been growing well in South Finland (Vantaa) for three seasons now.

Niklas

[Alan stone]

Dabinett is a Somerset Cider

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On 8 Jun 2020, at 07:52, Niklas <onke...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 8 juin 2020 03:38:11 UTC-4, Alan stone a écrit :

Dabinett is a Somerset Cider

Slight diversion from the original topic...

Yes, but most likely, it has French ancestries like most English bittersweets!

Dabinett is said to be a seedling of Chisel Jersey.

Chisel Jersey, like most "Jersey" apples, have some relation with Jersey Island which was famous for its cider making in the 17th and 18th centuries. It probably can be assumed the first "Jersey" apples that appeared in Somerset in early 18th were in fact brought in from Jersey Island (either grafted or seedlings).

We know for sure (this is written) that many French varieties were grown on Jersey Island in those days, having been brought in from the near-by Cotentin peninsula.

Hence the quite clear connection Normandy (Cotentin) -> Jersey Island -> Somerset!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

EDIT

This was early in the morning and my mind wasn't straight yet.

When I wrote

Chisel Jersey, like most "Jersey" apples, have some relation with Jersey Island which was famous for its cider making in the 17th and 18th centuries. It probably can be assumed the first "Jersey" apples that appeared in Somerset in early 18th were in fact brought in from Jersey Island (either grafted or seedlings).

 

I was "a century" off! I meant:

Chisel Jersey, like most "Jersey" apples, have some relation with Jersey Island which was famous for its cider making in the 18th and 19th centuries. It probably can be assumed the first "Jersey" apples that appeared in Somerset in early 1800s were in fact brought in from Jersey Island (either grafted or seedlings).

[luis gauthier]

Wow Claude, this is very intersting! 

I have always been interested in apple history. In this perspective, The art of detection of John Bunker was a great book. I don't think he talked about the jersery apple though.

As you said, there is several Jersey apple. I read somewhere that in England, it is considered a category of apple (maybe a bit like the russet or the pearmain?). If several Jersey apple probably originate from the Jersey Island, is there other elements that unite them? Size, color, use, etc.? Or is it the only fact that they originate from Jersey Island or their parents are Jersey Island apples?

Where I am, in the Gaspé peninsula, several Jersey ans Guernesey settlers have arrived here since the late 18e century. I'm wondering if they have brought apples varieties with them (although, I doubt they yould still be alive).

Sorry if this is a little more off from the orgiinal topic...

Louis

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 8 juin 2020 15:22:46 UTC-4, luis gauthier a écrit :

As you said, there is several Jersey apple. I read somewhere that in England, it is considered a category of apple (maybe a bit like the russet or the pearmain?). If several Jersey apple probably originate from the Jersey Island, is there other elements that unite them? Size, color, use, etc.? Or is it the only fact that they originate from Jersey Island or their parents are Jersey Island apples?

Well, we could say the Jersey apples form a family of apple varieties that share some common characters. Most are medium in size, have a rather conical shape, have a bittersweet flavor with a good content of tannins.

What is interesting is these characteristics also match those of the "Frequin" apples which is a very old family of French cider apples, first described by Le Paulmier in 1588...

It is usually assumed the Jersey apples appeared in Somerset by early 1800s, but the literature I have seen doesn't give much precisions as to their origin. I haven't seen anything that says they would have been brought from the Island of Jersey. But why then would have they been called "Jersey"?

However, it is documented that at that time some French bittersweets (and in particular the Fréquin) were grown in Jersey - this is in Le Couteur, 1806.

Also, later, in late 1800s, the English brought some varieties from Normandy and some of these were renamed as "Norman" apples (e.g. White Norman, Bulmer's Norman). So they could very well have done the same for some apples that were brought in Somerset from Jersey in early 1800s?

Maybe some of our friends in UK who know about history of varieties could shed somme light on this?

[Alan stone]

There is not a connection with Jersey apples and the Island! 

Sent from my iPhone

On 9 Jun 2020, at 04:13, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 9 juin 2020 03:27:27 UTC-4, Alan stone a écrit :

There is not a connection with Jersey apples and the Island! 

If so, why this name, Alan?

When did the first "Jersey" apple appear, and why did it get this name?

Very often when an apple is named, the name is in connection with its origin, it's breeder, or the location where it was found.

The first "jersey" apple was named that way for some reason that we don't know, and until we have an answer to this, we can't say for sure there in no connection...

After that, in following generations, if a seedling was looking somewhat similar to the original jersey apple or had similar flavor, it was also given the "Jersey" naming.

Claude

[Dave Fulton]

Claude,

Liz Copas wrote a little about this in the Somerset Pomona (not totally ruling out the possibility that the name has some Jersey connection)..She also speculates that it may be a local dialect origin - 'jaisy' meaning bitter in the local old Somerset dialect. No-one knows definitively it seems, but a lot of the names of English cider apples have a relationship with our Breton, Norman and Channel Island cousins (Jersey in Somerset, French in Gloucestershire, Norman in Herefordshire - the latter mostly sourced from Normandy by Bulmers.). 

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[Alan stone]

In the more recent Cider Apples by Liz she says they are a group of apples if Somerset origin. Suggested they were sometimes known as Georges - very much somerset dialect.similar to the Jaisey idea. She also pints out that there are a number of bitter sweets origination from

jersey -  counterparts to French/ Breton apples - much closer geographically

She does not preclude some indirect connection but Says that it is most unlikely that the Jersey apples came originally from Jersey

Sent from my iPhone

On 9 Jun 2020, at 16:53, Dave Fulton <dfult...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Yes I have Liz's books, and she writes "So our "jerseys" may have come to us indirectly from the Channel Isles". But in fact, it appears she doesn't really know, as there is no real documentation of that time telling us what the true origin is. Hence all this is quite speculative!

There are a number of possibilities, among which the following...

1- could be a natural seedling found in Somerset that had by chance some characters similar to that of apples grown in Jersey at the time, and thus was named accordingly.

2- could be a seedling from one of the varieties grown in Jersey.

3- or could be a graft from one of the varieties grown in Jersey.

Which brings another question...

When did the bittersweet apples start to be grown and used for cider in the West Country?

If I look at Knight in his Pomona Herefordiensis of 1811, I can't see any of the varieties described that are said to be bittersweet, or bitter and sweet, or anything what could lead us to think they could have had a bittersweet flavor.

This leads to the question of if there were any bittersweet varieties grown for cider in the West Country in the beginning of the 1800s.

Later, by end of 1800s, with Hogg and Bull, then yes many varieties are clearly identified as having a bittersweet flavor.

By early 1800s, bittersweet varieties were grown in Jersey. Le Couteur in 1806 wrote: "There are many at present, who give the preference to the Frequen, the Romeril, the Lucas, and the Lamey. These are all varieties of sweet and bitter apples peculiar to the island."

Is there any evidence that bittersweets were grown in Somerset or Herefordshire by early 1800s? Any reliable documentation about this?

Or was all cider made at that time from sharps and bittersharps?

[Richard Hostetter]

Interesting query, Claude.

What about bittersweets in France? I feel like I’ve seen references to very old documented pedigrees for a few French bittersweets (e.g. Reine des Pommes) that stretch back well before the 1800s but can’t find any specifics.

Boré et Fleckinger, in the preface section, mentions a certain Jacques Cahaignes who is said to have cited 65 cider specific varieties as early as 1589, and then an individual Osolant Desnos citing 300 cider varieties at the beginning of the 19th century. There’s no further reference to these historic works (what are they?) nor whether the cider apple varieties they reference are classified by type (bitter, sweet etc)...

The whole bittersweet category is intriguing in its historical elusiveness.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 10:16 AM, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[Claude Jolicoeur]

In France, yes bittersweets were well known in the 1500s.

Jacques Cahaignes worked with Julien Le Paulmier who is the author of De vino et pomaceo in 1588 (written in latin). Cahaignes translated the book in French and titled it Traité du vin et du cidre, in 1589. This is considered as the first book on cider making in the literature, and is downloadable from the Internet as a DPF.

In this book, as mentioned by Boré and Fleckinger, some 65 varieties are mentioned, many of them clearly identified as having a bittersweet flavor. The Fréquin apple is already mentioned there (spelled Freschin), as well as the Bedan.

Odolan-Desnos came quite later, and published in 1829 the Traité de la culture des pommiers et poiriers et de la fabrication du cidre et du poiré. It contains the most extensive list of varieties to have been published at that time, with some 300 varieties described from all regions of Normandy (but doesn't include varieties from Brittany), most of them being explicitely described as sweets or bittersweets or having a sweet and/or bitter flavor. This is also downloadable as a PDF.

As far as I know, there is nothing comparable in the English literature of that time concerning apple varieties that would have a sweet and bitter flavor.

Claude

[Dave Fulton]

I think the Redstreak and Genet Moyle and others have older origins in the UK than the 18th century. John Scudamore has been credited with introducing the former to England after his ambassadorship to France in 1642 (it is thought that the Redstreak was raised from a pip). There was a cider tradition prior to Scudamore - he's credited with making Herefordshire one of the key cider making areas of England. 

Fascinating topic - I'm enjoying this!

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 9 juin 2020 14:46:40 UTC-4, Dave Fulton a écrit :

I think the Redstreak and Genet Moyle and others have older origins in the UK than the 18th century. John Scudamore has been credited with introducing the former to England after his ambassadorship to France in 1642 (it is thought that the Redstreak was raised from a pip). There was a cider tradition prior to Scudamore - he's credited with making Herefordshire one of the key cider making areas of England. 

Yes, but Genet Moyle wasn't a bittersweet. Williams says it is medium sharp.

As of Scudamore's Redstreak, there is a lot of speculation we can read about him being ambassador in France and having brought pips of French cider apples to raise in his estate in Herefordshire, from which the Redstreak would come. However, I haven't seen anywhere that the Redstreak would have had a bittersweet flavor. Hogg and Bull in their The Apple & Pear as Vintage Fruits (1886) have 3 pages on the Redstreak, but nothing about its acidity! The cider made with Redstreak was often qualified as sweet and pleasant, but this does not mean the apple itself would be classified as a bittersweet.

So the question remains, was the old Redstreak a bittersweet?

[Nicholas Bradstock]

Here’s another speculation on the usage ‘jersey’ and the Somerset dialect word ‘jaisy’.

I don’t think that, generally speaking, the pronunciation of words in a Somerset accent would be admitted to be a dialect but certainly I’ve heard enough in my many years in this very special county to suggest that it’s quite possible that the word ‘jersey’ would have been commonly pronounced ‘jaisy’ anyway!  And perhaps the word came to mean ‘bitter’ because jersey apples are just that....

Just a thought

Nick 

iPad

On 9 Jun 2020, at 20:46, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Dave Fulton]

Not too many reliable references on that (Wikipedia, ugh), which quotes Charles Martell (author of the *excellent* 'Native Apples of Gloucestershire' - one of my favorite Pomonas) who does infer that the Redstreak was the first generation of UK bittersweets in his writeup of Dymock Red -  'Probably arose mid-1600s as a second generation variety of bittersweet apple descended from Lord Scudamore's initial bittersweet importation from the continent'.

Dave

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 9 juin 2020 17:30:34 UTC-4, Dave Fulton a écrit :

Not too many reliable references on that (Wikipedia, ugh), which quotes Charles Martell (author of the *excellent* 'Native Apples of Gloucestershire' - one of my favorite Pomonas) who does infer that the Redstreak was the first generation of UK bittersweets in his writeup of Dymock Red -  'Probably arose mid-1600s as a second generation variety of bittersweet apple descended from Lord Scudamore's initial bittersweet importation from the continent'.

Yes I can see it on Wikipedia, under the Redstreak entry:

The Redstreak was classed as a "bittersweet" cider apple variety, and indeed was the first of the bittersweet varieties to appear in England: the second generation of bittersweet (or "French") varieties, such as Dymock Red, were produced from it.

Only problen I see is Dymock Red is a bittersharp according to all references I have seen - and these include Morgan and Williams...

[Alan stone]

Sorry - you are missing the big point. The name jersey is unlikely To have anything to do with Jersey - there are plenty of much more creditable linguistic interpretations - mainly to do with the Somerset (and Bristol) dialect

Sent from my iPhone

On 9 Jun 2020, at 18:16, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Matt Moser Miller]

Yeah, Alan—I don’t actually think he’s missing the main point, at all. He asked you: where does the word “jaisy” come from, in the dialect? What’s its earliest attestation? And it didn’t seem like you answered that.

In Elworthy’s “The West Somerset word-book; a glossary of dialectical and archaic phrases used in the west of Somerset and East Devon” (1886), for example? There’s no entry for “jaisy” (or “jersey,” for that matter). 

Is it not equally possible that “jaisy” came to mean bitter BECAUSE jersey-type apples tended to be bitter? And the way you’d try to answer this, of course, is look at the linguistic record. There is a logical potential connection, as Claude said; Jersey was known for having bittersweet apples before they were common in Somerset, and he included his sources.

You can’t just say “there are much more creditable linguistic interpretations” without actually providing evidence. Bring receipts.

Matt Moser Miller

On Jun 10, 2020, at 4:37 AM, 'Alan stone' via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Sorry - you are missing the big point. The name jersey is unlikely To have anything to do with Jersey - there are plenty of much more creditable linguistic interpretations - mainly to do with the Somerset (and Bristol) dialect

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[Alan stone]

Jaisey is only one explanation and has been treated with scepticism

There are many different dialects in Somerset which antiquarians have documented- West Somerset is still very different to Central Somerset or Bristol

There are so many possible explanations it is a rather futile topic. But why are the Apple so different to varieties from Jersey - dna May provide clues

Sent from my iPhone

On 10 Jun 2020, at 13:53, Matt Moser Miller <moserm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, Alan—I don’t actually think he’s missing the main point, at all. He asked you: where does the word “jaisy” come from, in the dialect? What’s its earliest attestation? And it didn’t seem like you answered that.

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[Dave Fulton]

>Only problen I see is Dymock Red is a bittersharp according to all references I have seen - and these include Morgan and Williams...  

Yep - fair comment. I can't comment from experience as my Dymock Red's haven't fruited yet, but Martell also talks to the apple as being an eater as well as a vintage cider apple -  'known locally as an eating apple by children in its home parish' so maybe its not too bitter and not too sharp in Gloucestershire?

DF

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 10 juin 2020 09:10:51 UTC-4, Alan stone a écrit :

There are so many possible explanations it is a rather futile topic.

Yes, maybe it is a futile topic, as there are apparently no credible sources of information that could shed light on how the first "jersey" apples appeared in Somerset. Hence this is all speculation really.

But it's fun!!! Let's keep it that way.

In Brittany, there are many varieties that have the word "C'hwerv" in their name (also seen written Chwero, Fuero and other forms). And this is the Breton word for bitter. Something similar could have happened in Somerset - it is certainly not excluded.

Also in Herefordshire many native bittersweet varieties had been named "Norman" during the 19th century, probably because their flavor was somewhat similar to that of the apples in Normandy. This is documented in Hogg and Bull. They went in 1884 to the large pomological congress in France and compared these with varieties in Normandy to find no direct relation. Subsequently, most of these were renamed as "Hereford" varieties...

Hence another possibility is that some native bittersweet varieties were named "jersey" simply because they had similarities with apples grown in the island.

Really, I don't think any potential explanation for the name can be formally discarded unless we have a good reason.

Claude

[John Were]

Sadly there is no mention of "jersey apple" or "jaisey" in my Oxford English Dictionary. It is only the shorter version though.

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[Alan stone]

Agreed!

Sent from my iPhone

On 10 Jun 2020, at 15:53, John Were <john...@xelsion.com> wrote:



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[Wes Cherry]

None in the full OED edition either.  Jersey elm and jersey lily, but no jersey Apple.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

On Jun 10, 2020, at 7:53 AM, John Were <john...@xelsion.com> wrote:



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[Alan stone]

Chisel Jersey would seem to be the oldest but reading Liz Copas they all seem to have been named in the late 19th century or into the mid 20th century. 

Common features all small apples - nearly all bittersweet though Stembridge Clusters (excellent tasting cider) is described as a sharp but listed as a jersey because of location of size. 

Those 10 or so apples listed all seem to have originated as apples propergated in Somerset and named later when their charecteristics became clear

Sent from my iPhone

On 10 Jun 2020, at 16:51, Wes Cherry <w...@dragonsheadcider.com> wrote:

None in the full OED edition either.  Jersey elm and jersey lily, but no jersey Apple.

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Yes, in Hogg and Bull (1886), only 2 jersey apples are mentioned, and thus possibly these were the first of the line:

- Jersey Flenier which is now forgotten as far as I know.

- Chisel Jersey (with synonyms Jersey Chisel, Bitter Jersey)

The "Bitter Jersey" synonym is interesting... If the word "jersey" is there to mean bitter, then this name translates as "Bitter Bitter"...

Most others are more modern introductions that would have been raised or found as native seedlings in Somerset.

[jitd...@aol.com]

Ah the shorter Oxford in only two volumes ..........

JD

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Looking at Hogg (1851), British Pomology, there is:

Jersey: small cider apple of conical shape, red color, and in use during November and December. A bitter-sweet. And a reference to H.S.C. p.21 (which would be the Catalog of the fruits cultivated in the garden of the Horticultural Society of London)

Could it be the first Jersey apple?

This seems to be the only Jersey apple in this book (unless I missed one in the index)

[John Were]

Leather bound with gold leaf edged pages. One of my more extravagant university purchases but also my best loved, best smelling, and longest lasting.

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[jitd...@aol.com]

My Shorter Oxford is precious too, if only cloth bound and alas not gilded except for the alphabetic thumb index recesses.  My first purchase after graduation.  My first degree was in philosophy and I have always found precision in language and meaning most important.  My interests later turned to science via the mysteries of fermentation.  

JD

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[CGJ]

JD,

Whether cider making, analytical chemistry, philosophy, politics or any other field, precision in language and meaning are invaluable to clear thought and communication. We may not all agree on something, but at least let us know clearly what it is that we disagree about.

Carl

[jitd...@aol.com]

Carl!

I'm afraid we are wondering off subject and the regulators will be after us.  As someone who studied philosophy before science I believe that science explores the limits of what we can say about the world rather than explaining the mysteries of fundamental questions.  Mysteries usually turn out to be misconceptions about what we can say about the world.  However back to subject, to say of a postulated theory of origins of an apple in so many words "no it's not" without evidence or supporting argument is a bit troubling.  

The journey of the apple is a great adventure we all participate in.  We should all take pleasure in it as Claude obviously does.  

JD

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Sent: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:44
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: French cider apple varieties for colder climate

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