Hereford Redstreak or what?

[Mark Evens]

This was given to me to identify. It is clearly a bittersweet cider apple (fibrous, tannic, sweet) but seems more ribbed than the pics of Hereford Redstreak that I have seen. It was grown in Cumbria, so that might have affected the form. Does anyone have any other ideas, or a some characteristics of Hereford Redstreak I refer to (not in any of my Pomonas). Thanks .

[Nick MacLean]

Any idea where the tree was from? I topped worked a tree with some “redstreak” from Cummins. This year it produced one or two apples about the same size and very ribbed as well. 

Nick

On Saturday, October 7, 2023, Mark Evens <lordla...@gmail.com> wrote:

This was given to me to identify. It is clearly a bittersweet cider apple (fibrous, tannic, sweet) but seems more ribbed than the pics of Hereford Redstreak that I have seen. It was grown in Cumbria, so that might have affected the form. Does anyone have any other ideas, or a some characteristics of Hereford Redstreak I refer to (not in any of my Pomonas). Thanks .

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[Dick Dunn]

The most likely reason you can't find Herefordshire Redstreak in any of
your pomonas is that it doesn't exist any more.

That may sound more inciteful than insightful, but the number of trees (and
varieties!:-) sold as Herefordshire Redstreak doesn't mean that any of them
are the real thing. Consider, from the authoritative Morgan and Richards:
In decline by late 1700s; only one tree could be found by Woolhope Club
in 1879, but many red streaked apples were given this name.
That's going-on 150 years.

Even in the US, apples were sold as Herefordshire Redstreak--I still have
a couple such, very different (!) cultivars, acquired when I was (even)
more naive than I am now.

One of them I've since determined with -fair- certainty to be a Somerset
Redstreak.

Hmmm...actually, to add to Mark Evens' note (below): he says he has
"clearly a bittersweet cider apple" but Herefordshire Redstreak was a
bittersharp.

> Pomonas). Thanks...
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Mark Evens]

Thanks for the replies. Some more info:

• It is a medium sized apple 
• It is from a 100 year old tree at Blencow in Cumbria, UK
• I’m not sure if it’s a bittersweet or bittersharp. I did a taste test and it was so tannic that I spat it out without thinking about acidity. The sugar was 14% Brix. I’ll try and get enough juice for an acid test, when I’ve documented it better. I only have the one apple at the moment. 

[Elizabeth Pimblett]

Hello, our late trustee Gillian Bulmer who planted new orchards to preserve old varieties told me the same, that what is sold as Herefordshire Redstreak is not the original tree and it's probably lost. 

It's a huge pity, as it was a star player in the late 17th and 18th centuries, and put Herefordshire cider on the map. 

Best wishes, Elizabeth Pimblett, Museum of Cider. 

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[Michael]

I got a few apples off a HR purchased from the UK before it died on me, and it definitely was abittersharp.

[Ian Merwin]

Folks-

The "redstreak" in that picture looks (to me at least) more like Magog Redstreak, which we have several 20-year old trees of at Black Diamond Farm in upstate NY.  We also have about 50 trees of probable Hereford Redstreak that I grafted from buds obtained at the USDA Malus germplasm Geneva NY repository in 1997.  I am told that the original trees of Hereford Redstreak at Geneva were lost to fireblight several years after we cut our budwood there.  Susanna Forbes visited our orchards several years ago and said she thought our Hereford Reds were likely the original variety that may be lost in the UK, based on their taste and phenotype.  We have not done DNA confirmation of that, so it is speculative.  The fruit size is small to medium, they ripen in early to mid September here in the NY Finger Lakes region.  I would describe their chemistry as mild bittersweet, high Brix and lovely soft tannins.  We use it in several of our ciders, blended with Ellis Bitter and Somerset Redstreak fruit, usually adding Cox Orange Pippin and Bramleys for acid.

Cheers

Ian Merwin

Black Diamond Farm & Cider

[AW]

Is there any hope for DNA-based identification without a consensus reference sample.  

Are there known decedents of HR that could be to piece it together?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Obviously, if a known true Hereford Redstreak has never been tested and its DNA signature included in the global database, there is no way to be absolutely sure of what we have.

However, in the particular case of Ian's HR, if it was DNA tested and a match was found with a variety in the database, then the enigma would be solved.

If no match is found, then the test may identify the parents of the variety. For example, if one of the identified parent is a variety that is more modern than the HR, then we may be sure it is not the original one.

Historical notes indicate the original HR is most probably of French origin (as Lord Scudamore was in France and likely brought back seeds ans scions) - then if the DNA analysis shows parents to be ancient French varieties, then chances are good to have the original.

[John Bunker]

As far as I know, there is no documented Harvest Redstreak that has been DNA tested and entered into the international reference database. It is possible however that an apple thought to be the true Harvest Redstreak still exists in the UK.  I have written this morning to friends in the UK who might know more. It would be great to DNA profile Ian's cultivar and to grow it out in a few more locations.

Cheers, John Bunker 

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John Bunker

PO Box 12

Palermo ME 04354

outonalimbapples.com

fedcoseeds.com

maineheritageorchard.org

[Mark Evens]

I’ll see if I can get some leaves for DNA test, but may have to wait until next spring. 

[Mark Evens]

I've done some more analysis on this apple FWIW. Unfortunately, I could only get the one example.

General appearance: Smooth-skinned, yellow backgound with slight red-pink flush on sunny side and broad burgundy stripes all over. No russet apart from a small amount in the cavity. Dry and slightly waxy feel. No conspicuous lenticels.

Size & shape: 65mm diameter, round profile, irregular plan.

Flesh: fibrous & tannic. 13.8% Brix. 9.85% malic. (So a bittersharp). White with some pink tinges dotted throughout.

Basin: Eye closed, sepals flat convergent.

Cavity: Radiating streaky russet. Stalk protrudes beyond base.

Transverse section: Axial sac - none; carpels (5) fully open, broad and straight-sided to a point

Vertical section: Large cone-shaped tube, median stamens. Basal clasping core line.

See pictures

[Michael Clifford]

Hi all,

Coming to this thread late, but wanted to add a word or two on lost apples. Over the past few years, I've been mapping abandoned trees in the Mid-Atlantic and using Cameron Peace's process fur DNA testing to identify varieties. There are many genetically unique trees in the lot, and most of these unique trees were grafted (part of an orchard grid or show an obvious graft union), so the thought of finding an apple that was declared extinct a century ago isn't that far fetched. One example that might interest the British readers: A very ancient tree behind a barn in rural Connecticut turned out to be a Reinette des Carmes apple. This isn't a fruit mentioned much in the 19c. American literature, and when it is, under the name "Barcelona Peamain", it's described as a little known foreign apple. I haven't found a later reference to it apart from a USDA watercolor of an Ontario apple collected at the turn of the last century. Safe to say, it wasn't widely grown here, and how it ended up grafted in a 19c. farming hamlet in New England is anyone's guess, but finding it abandoned in a field there does show the limits of documentary evidence and the ability of these unlikely varieties to persist.

Mark, if you'd like to send me a dried leaf from this tree next spring, I can take care of getting it DNA tested as others have recommended. If it's a match to any of the "unique" trees I've charted, that would be a decent indicator it was a named variety that was being grown on both sides of the Atlantic. I'd love for it to be a Herefordshire Redstreak, almost as much as I'd love the 30 "Redstreak" trees already planted in my orchard to be the the real thing :)

Michael

[Dave Fulton]

Michael, fascinating stuff on your Barcelona Pearmain. Its a shame that most of the stories of how these rare varieties end up in some out of way places are (regretfully) lost. 

As for your Cumbria apple find, Mark, it would be fascinating what comes back if you submit it to FruitID (essentially the UK equivalent of the work of Peace and his program on this side of the pond that Michael was mentioning). At one point, FruitID was a lot cheaper than the US version, thankfully the US has simplified their program (by reducing the number of genetic snips they profile), dramatically reducing the prices and making them a lot more accessible to everyone.

Looks like FruidID have stopped shipping sample bags for 2023 - but maybe you get a leaf sample DNA profiled in 2024? If you do, do let us know what you hear back!

https://www.fruitid.com/#main

DF

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[dick kirk]

It would be of interest (to me, at least), to know the Brix and TA , as well as your taste of the apple.Dic

Dick (California)

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