PH and acidity taste

[marc alfsen]

Hi

Questions about ph:

From a biochemical point of view from what high ph is coming?

At what point the taste of acidity is related to ph or malo/lactic?

Is there a way to lower ph during fermentation without adding malic acid?

If I end with a cider at 5,5 ph is it a fail?

thx 

[Andrew Lea]

1.  pH in fruit juice is a complex balance between native acid and cation levels (mostly potassium).  Bear in mind this is not the true cellular pH of the fruit because all the cell organelles have been smashed up through milling. However, it will be fairly consistent for any given cultivar of apple grown in the same conditions / climate. 

2. The acid taste sensation of a fruit juice, cider or wine by a human taster is related much more to titratable acid level than it is to pH. If you have a malo-lactic change then the titratable acid drops by up to 50% and the acid perception drops by 50%. The pH may not change very much at all.

3. You can add any acid you like to lower pH.  For ciders, the normal acids used are malic and lactic. Tartaric acid can form insoluble tartrate salts and citric is subject to bacterial metabolism (to acetic acid) so they are not used. 

4. No normal apple juice, cider or wine has a pH of 5.5. If this is what you have, then something has gone badly wrong in your process or your pH measurement is incorrect. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 3 Oct 2022, at 08:39, marc alfsen <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi

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[marc alfsen]

thank you 

I'll test the the total acidity and check and calibrate my ph meter

Marc

[Gloria Bell]

I recalibrate my pH meter every time.  Just ensure that you use new solution each time (and don't our it back into the container) and that your solutions are fresh.  If it seems off - it may be.  I've actually bought a coulple cheap meters as back ups and I employ them when something seems off and makes me more comfortable.  You'll get to better know pH and TA as time goes on.  It's a learned thing and honestly I hard to just trust taste buds but it often gets you in the ball park - just much harder when sugar present - if not VERY hard.  Easier with fermented juice

[marc alfsen]

I'll do it, I think that using early apples in august (very hot in the alps) was a mistake, an intense and fast fermentation, no sugar left and strong acidity, no alcohol yet. 

Thank you 

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[Andrew Lea]

What was your original SG and what is it now? Did you add a yeast? How do you know there is no alcohol yet - how did you measure it? What variety are these early apples? You say the acidity is strong yet you quoted a pH of 5.5.  That simply isn’t possible.

If you want us to help you we need to have some sensible information. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 4 Oct 2022, at 20:13, marc alfsen <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[marc alfsen]

10/08/2022

13,0

1,0500

04/09/2022

11,4

1,0010

no yeast added 

measured with alcohol meter today 

you were right about ph meter I changed ph is 3.7 with new one

We have some old orchard in the italian alps so variety are italian rusnet some sort of reinette  and grand alexander 

thank you

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[Andrew Lea]

What does the second column of figures measure?  I presume the third column is SG? What do you mean by an “alcohol meter”? How does it work?

I’m glad you have a sensible pH reading now ;-)

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 4 Oct 2022, at 20:54, marc alfsen <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[marc alfsen]

sorry second column = temp (is there a better way to measure alcohol ? 

thx

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[Andrew Lea]

I’m afraid you are rather confused about measurements.

The picture you showed is of a spirit hydrometer and is intended only for pure alcohol solutions in water, such as you get from distillation. It cannot be used to measure alcohol in wines or ciders, because of all the other things that are in solution.

However, the figures in your third column appear to be SG measurements made with a regular hydrometer. You started at SG 1.050 and finished at SG 1.001.  This is a SG drop of 49 points which equates to roughly 6.3% alcohol by volume.

So in summary you have made a cider at 6.3% ABV and with a pH around 3.7.  All is well and that is quite normal. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 5 Oct 2022, at 07:54, marc alfsen <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:



sorry second column = temp (is there a better way to measure alcohol ? 

thx

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